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InvisibleWorldWideWInton
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073879 - 04/11/12 02:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If you want to formulate a valid Modus tollens it would be something like:

If something is pondering its existence then it must exist.
You do not exist.
------------------
You are not pondering existence.




lol, here would be a logical athiest statement...
If there is no god, then I am correct...

Quote:

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering?



No, its safe to take a break.


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My past post are not necessarily reflections of my current opinions.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073894 - 04/11/12 03:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If an atheist is correct then there is no god.
God is unknown
-----------------
An atheist is not correct

(How a pantheist defeats an atheist)


Edited by teknix (04/11/12 03:36 AM)


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073910 - 04/11/12 03:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
Quote:

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering?



No, its safe to take a break.




Of course it is, but doesn't this make 'I think therefore I am' a bit shaky?
Might as well say 'I perceive therefore I am' with equal weight.

..and congratulations to the 2nd indisputable statement folks!
1.) 'I think therefor I am' R. Descartes (1644)
2.) 'I know therefor I'm not credible' Shroomery (2012)
:lol:


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It's fine.


Edited by cbub (04/11/12 03:21 AM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073918 - 04/11/12 03:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Not at all.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073920 - 04/11/12 03:23 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Nah, it only adds evidence to it. The fact that existence without thinking is unknown. How could existence ever be affirmed or denied without thinking?


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073927 - 04/11/12 03:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say without thought you still exist, it doesn't depend on your affirmation of it.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073932 - 04/11/12 03:32 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How do you know then? (intuition?) :tongue:


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073960 - 04/11/12 03:42 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, that's definitely the interesting part. We just have to know, don't we?
What does a stone know? Does it exist?


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InvisibleWorldWideWInton
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073983 - 04/11/12 03:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Nah, it only adds evidence to it. The fact that existence without thinking is unknown. How could existence ever be affirmed or denied without thinking?




The same could be said about the, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around does it make a sound.  How could the sound be affirmed or denied with out hearing it?

Also, what about all of the non-living objects... They do not think.  Do they exist?  Or plantish things.  Do they think/exist?

I never understood the phrase I think therefore I am.  Maybe I am taking it to literally....


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16073991 - 04/11/12 03:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

It's a gateway to self evident truth.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073995 - 04/11/12 04:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

There's a great book dealing with such questions.
Everything Forever: Learning To See Timelessness by Gevin Giorbran

Happy to see you all interested in basics! :thumbup:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074010 - 04/11/12 04:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Thanks! If you have anymore questions feel free to ask :smile:


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: WorldWideWInton]
    #16074012 - 04/11/12 04:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

WorldWideWInton said:
Also, what about all of the non-living objects... They do not think.  Do they exist?  Or plantish things.  Do they think/exist?

I never understood the phrase I think therefore I am.  Maybe I am taking it to literally....




But remember how if then statements work.  The antecedent is sufficient but not necessary for the consequence.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074021 - 04/11/12 04:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

here's a taste.
Quote:

Words meaningfully manage to define all that exists and all that is imaginable.
Einstein spoke of this eloquently as such, β€œThe eternal mystery of the
world is its comprehensibility” So why is it that the physical universe seems to
exist in concert with the meanings that define the words and ideas we think
with. Such profound questions are asked of science, even if they aren't ordinarily
considered answerable with any great measure of certainty. We should at least
consider that if the infinite universe is limited in some way, it is limited in concert
with the very meanings that define language. So we should not be surprised
to find that words, as fragmentary and ethereal as they seem, can define the
ultimate boundaries of reality.




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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16074025 - 04/11/12 04:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If a plant questions its existence then it is existing.

Otherwise the plant doesn't know if it is existing.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074033 - 04/11/12 04:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If you have anymore questions feel free to ask :smile:



Hey! :smile:
How are you? Having a good day?
Which view is pantheistic?
Seeing everything as ordinary or seeing everything as divine?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16074037 - 04/11/12 04:26 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Define god.

Define god quantified.


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16075435 - 04/11/12 01:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
If a plant questions its existence then it is existing.

Otherwise the plant doesn't know if it is existing.




Going from this; it seems fallacious to question existence. You will always go round in circles.

I = exist. Likewise, "think" = exist. "therefore" = exist". "am" = "exist". All of these words require existence a priori.

And then, we already know existence is the case. It's intellectually dishonest to question an experiment where the results are fixed in advance.

I mean: I don't exist therefore, what?

You can never negate existence. Existence is absolute. Being subject to the emptiness of non-being then existing creates the illusion that existence is relative. But it isn't. That we are present and questioning is a testament to the absolute 'power'/dominion of existence.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16075574 - 04/11/12 01:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Define god.

Define god quantified.




All there is.
1.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16075588 - 04/11/12 01:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You can never negate existence. Existence is absolute. Being subject to the emptiness of non-being then existing creates the illusion that existence is relative. But it isn't. That we are present and questioning is a testament to the absolute 'power'/dominion of existence.




You would probably like this paragraph -

Quote:

Nonexistence cannot be. It cannot exist. It cannot even be meant. And that
predicament, that total paradox, is very different from the real nothing that
exists and can be talked about. And the fact that we confuse these two concepts
is the very reason we don't yet clearly understand why we exist. We exist because
there is no alternative. There never was a non-existence in the past and there
never will be a non-existence. Existence is the default setting of reality. Existence
belongs here. It has always been.




It's a bit scarce with backing it up...


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