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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16068592 - 04/10/12 02:11 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Mixed hypothetical syllogism: Modus ponens (valid and unsound)

If I am pondering my existence then I must exist
I am pondering my existence
--------------------
therefore I must exist


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 01:33 PM)


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16068928 - 04/10/12 06:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

That's circular: Exist therefore exist.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16069918 - 04/10/12 12:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

non-existence is not
existence is
i am therefore i am  :iamderp:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: crkhd]
    #16070022 - 04/10/12 12:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Descartes used logic and philosophy to bridge sprituality and science, so that they were no longer mutually exclusive.

For something to be pondering its existence, it would first have to exist.

You are arguing only whether it exists separately. You obviously exist if you ponder existence, for without anything to ponder, there is no pondering. There is no pondering existence without something to ponder existence. Self-evident.
Quote:


Aristotle explains the idea in full length:

    But if life itself is good and pleasant (...) and if one who sees is conscious that he sees, one who hears that he hears, one who walks that he walks and similarly for all the other human activities there is a faculty that is conscious of their exercise, so that whenever we perceive, we are conscious that we perceive, and whenever we think, we are conscious that we think, and to be conscious that we are perceiving or thinking is to be conscious that we exist... (Nicomachean Ethics, 1170a25 ff.)






Quote:

crkhd said:
That's circular




Yeah I see that now, thanks.


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 01:44 PM)


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InvisibleSymbols
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070027 - 04/10/12 12:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Words debating words.
Much 'ado about nothing.
A bird flew by my head,
With the sound of 'swoosh!'
Next I had to pause,
And debate with my comrades
If they heard the same sound.
After much confusion,
One said 'swoosh'
Another said, 'wheew.'
After our exchange,
Several other birds passed us by
Unnoticed.


--------------------


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Symbols]
    #16070183 - 04/10/12 01:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

So the Cartesian Theatre/materialism is a Straw Man Argument often used to discredit Descartes.

Quote:


In philosophy of mind, Cartesian materialism is the idea that at some place (or places) in the brain, there is some set of information that directly corresponds to our conscious experience. Contrary to its name, Cartesian materialism is not a view that was held by or formulated by RenΓ© Descartes, who subscribed rather to a form of substance dualism.





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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: Shins] * 1
    #16070199 - 04/10/12 01:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.


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OfflineRonaldFuckingPaul
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16070260 - 04/10/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.



Why is the word atheism so frowned upon?


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: DieCommie]
    #16070261 - 04/10/12 01:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Mixed hypothetical syllogism: Modus ponens (valid and sound?)

If something is pondering its existence then it must be existing.
I am pondering my existence.
--------------------
Therefore I must be existing.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: RonaldFuckingPaul]
    #16070271 - 04/10/12 01:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

reeferaddict69 said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

Shins said:
for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




Pantheism is effectively atheism.  But so many people have been taught that atheism is a bad word so they make up different terms for their atheism such that they dont scare grandma.



Why is the word atheism so frowned upon?




Because the world is run by and our culture is inherited from believers.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16070508 - 04/10/12 02:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:


--------------------
It's fine.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070526 - 04/10/12 02:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




If-then statements dont work like that!  :tongue:  If thought then exist does not imply that if no thought then no exist.  For that we use if and only if, or iff.  Iff thought then exist implies that if no thought then no exist.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16070610 - 04/10/12 02:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




If you never question whether you exist then your existence would be uncertain.

You present a false dichotomy, for there are more choices than ceasing to exist without thought, one of which is an uncertain existence.

Without self-evident truth then your existence is uncertain.


Edited by teknix (04/10/12 02:49 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16070650 - 04/10/12 02:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

SchrΓΆdinger's Cat: A cat, along with a flask containing a poison and a radioactive source, is placed in a sealed box. If an internal Geiger counter detects radiation, the flask is shattered, releasing the poison that kills the cat. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics implies that after a while, the cat is simultaneously alive and dead. Yet, when we look in the box, we see the cat either alive or dead, not both alive and dead.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

(Look at it from the cats perspective from within the box)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16071030 - 04/10/12 04:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Personally I don't care if you say there is absolutely a god or there is absolutely not a god, either way, I think you are full of shit to think you know anything as absolutely.


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16071050 - 04/10/12 04:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Then one can absolutely know he's full of shit? :laugh:


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16071068 - 04/10/12 04:08 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

From an individual perspective, yes. One can easily determine ones own misconceptions of their own accord, although it seems more beneficial to have someone to compare perspectives with.


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InvisibleWorldWideWInton
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073348 - 04/10/12 11:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

how?  because there are different definitions of god.

for example; how does an atheist logically deny pantheism?




I don't think that atheism relies on logic...  Just like ancient aliens.  They believe there is no god not because of proof of no god but because of a lack of proof.  Just like this guy... :ancientaliens:  Not logic but a overwhelming % chance that there is no god. 

A pantheist saying god is everything, is just as logical. 

Logic being "if, then" statments.  There is no definitive, if there is not god, then ____.  Or if god is everything, then ___.  No logic behind either.


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My past post are not necessarily reflections of my current opinions.


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: cbub]
    #16073791 - 04/11/12 02:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

cbub said:
What about thoughtlessness? Do you cease existing when you're not pondering? :shiftyeyes:




Diecommie is right. Conditional premise is "If, Then", what diecommie is pointing out is the fallacy of denying the antecedent.

Quote:

Denying the antecedent, sometimes also called inverse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form:

    If P, then Q.
    Not P.
    Therefore, not Q.

Arguments of this form are invalid. Informally, this means that arguments of this form do not give good reason to establish their conclusions, even if their premises are true.

The name denying the antecedent derives from the premise "not P", which denies the "if" clause of the conditional premise.

One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a counterexample with true premises but an obviously false conclusion. For example:

    If Queen Elizabeth is an American citizen, then she is a human being.
    Queen Elizabeth is not an American citizen.
    Therefore, Queen Elizabeth is not a human being.





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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Atheism is a straw man [Re: teknix]
    #16073838 - 04/11/12 02:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

If you want to formulate a valid Modus tollens it would be something like:

If something is pondering its existence then it must exist.
You do not exist.
------------------
You are not pondering existence.


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