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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas!
    #1606288 - 06/03/03 11:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i found a patch of these mushrooms on the hotel lawn that we were staying at ... the banding of color caught my eye so i picked them all and took sporeprints.. the spore prints came out black!

this was one of the younger sepcimen

here are the pics: (sorry for the quality!) i also had to change them up in photoshop due to the lighting.

pic 1:



pic 2:




pic 3:



pic 4:



so what do ya think?? did i finally find an active!?


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #1606298 - 06/03/03 11:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Those are Pan foen's all the way... Not active :frown:
I'll talk to ya about it on AIM :smile: 


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: Gumby]
    #1606318 - 06/03/03 11:24 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Here?s a picture of some Panaeolus subbalteatus I found earlier this year:




Notice how the stems are shorter, thicker, and darker. Gills are also fringed with a lighter color.


Edited by GumbyDude (06/03/03 11:26 PM)


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: Gumby]
    #1606346 - 06/03/03 11:36 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

dammmit, i cant believe i threw away about 100 of those because i thought pan. subbs were a northern species and i couldnt id them. that is so sad now i want to cry...nice pictures though...and those are pan foens. smaller size, but spore print should be chocolate brown.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #1606615 - 06/04/03 01:20 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, those too are no dout foenisecii.

Notice how Gumby's subbalteatus are much more beefy, the stem is much browner, the caps are a different shape and the gill structure is quite different.

Spore print would be different as well. Finding subbalteatus is harder to find on lawns...I've only seen a few posts/people finding them on a very well fertilized lawns. Try horse manure/stable piles.


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Invisibletranced2
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: angryshroom]
    #1607588 - 06/04/03 12:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

what about a possible pan. casten. could they be those?


--------------------
in trees. fighting bears.


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: tranced2]
    #1607704 - 06/04/03 01:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

naw...foen my friend


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OfflineGumbyM
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1607714 - 06/04/03 01:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, they're Foens, they're pretty much a textbook example of them. That shiney white stem is a dead give away.


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Offlineshowcivic17
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: Gumby]
    #1609711 - 06/05/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

In my area there have been many reports of foe's having black spores and are active..i also got foes off lawns and ate a bunch and tripped..this website even says that foes found in the north eastern part of america were potent but not in the south.I heard that the reason some foes r active because there a mix of subbs and foes.


thanks for the help guys


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: showcivic17]
    #1609794 - 06/05/03 01:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Panaeolina foenisecii has brown spores. periood. If you have a shroom with a black spore print is it definitely not panaeolina foenisecii.

And your information is wrong. No one ever said anything about the specimens in the south being active or not actie. IT was regarding the west coast and the east coast.



However they are not active. There have been hundreds of chemical analysis which support my data about this species.

false positves come from one panaeolus in a piound of panaeolina foenisecii. But even in that amount of shrooms, one mushroom would not get anyone high.

Here are the results of many chemical analysis of that species.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxX

In the past, as noted above, numerous mycologists had listed this species as edible, but not desirable; while most recent mycological publications refer to this mushroom as poisonous and/or hallucinogenic.

The question of the suspected psychoactive properties of P. foenisecii, which allegedly caused hallucinations in three young children (described above), three teen-agers (Cooles 1980), and two elderly ladies (Allen 1988b), is confused by conflicting observations of mycologists and other investigators who have studied this species. There is some mycological disagreement regarding the natural production and presence of psilocybin and psilocin in Panaeolina foenisecii. Some have even referred to the suspected appearance of these alkaloids in this species as sporadic (Ola'h 1970).

Panaeolina foenisecii was first investigated for the presence of indole compounds by Tyler and Smith (1963). They detected no psilocybin or psilocin in the specimens they analyzed, but did report the occurrence of 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin), along with 5-hydroxytryptophan, and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid. Two years later, Holden (1965) reported a suspected poisoning in a young English boy who became ill with tachycardia and mydriasis after allegedly consuming Panaeolina foenisecii). Specimens of the fungus collected in England and examined by Holden in 1969, contained no detectable psilocybin or psilocin (Mantle & Waight 1969).

Ola'h (1968a; 1968b; 1969; 1970) studied this species and described it as being 'latent psilocybian' (i.e., only producing these compounds sporadically). Robbers et al. (1969), reported detection of psilocybin in two collections of P. foenisecii, ?? one from Lafayette, Indiana, and another from Quebec, Canada. A third collection of the fungus, from Seattle, Washington, did not contain psilocybin.

In 1972 Fiusello and Ceruti?Scurti reported analysis of an Italian collection of P. foenisecii and found psilocybin present in one of two samples. Specimens collected during the spring of 1972 in Seattle, Washington tested negative (Enos 1972; Brolyn 1990). Later that same year, Miller (1972) commented on a case of poisoning that occurred earlier in 1966, in which this fungus was eaten by a four year old boy who "...was rendered comatose for a short time." Two years later, Southcott (1974) reported the above cited Australian case.

Although much earlier, Cleland (1934) first recorded the presence of the "haymaker's mushroom" in Australia, he identified the fungus as Psilocybe foenisecii (Pers.) Fr. (the Latin name Foenisecia, means "Hay? harvest). Cleland made no mention regarding the species toxicity or edibility.

Specimens of P. foenisecii collected near Canberra, Australia were analyzed by R.W. Rickards (cf. Southcott 1974) and were reported as being psilocybin negative. Ott (1976), citing Robbers et al. (1969) as his source, noted that P. foenisecii specimens from Ontario and Indiana were tested as psilocybin positive. The specimens referred to above were actually collected in Quebec and Indiana. Ott (1974?1975) later mentioned that he himself ingested a large number of the "haymaker's mushroom collected near Olympia, Washington; he reported no noticeable effects.

Pollock (1976) based the following statement on a study by Ola'h (1970) involving five samples of P. foenisecii (four from Quebec and one from Paris); "two from Quebec contained both psilocybin and psilocin, whereas the one from Paris and one of the two other samples from Quebec contained psilocybin."

Ott and Guzman (1976) carried out further investigations regarding the production of psilocybin and psilocin in P. foenisecii. They analyzed specimens from the Federal District of Mexico and found them to be void of psilocybin. Ott and Pollock (Guzman et al. 1976) also collected specimens of P. foenisecii from Oregon in 1975. No psilocybin was detected.

Haard and Haard (1975) suggested that psilocybin and psilocin are only found in this fungus in the United States on the East Coast; while Menser (1977) noted that "Western analyses have often shown the presence of psilocybin (but not psilocin) in small amounts only" (the authors of the present study found no reference verifying either Menser's or Haard and Haard's claims). Singer (1978) also ingested "raw" specimens of this species. He reported no "psychotropic" effects whatsoever. Subsequent chemical analysis of P. foenisecii by Singer (1991, Pers. Comm.) was negative. Arora (1979), believing this species to be harmless, stated that the " 'chemical analysis have revealed traces of psilocybin in certain strains, but [the] material I tested was inactive."

Watling (1979) collected specimens of Panaeolina foenisecii in 1974 from Western Australia. He described the suspected poisoning of a two year old girl in Australia (the case originally reported by Southcott in 1974; see case history no. 3 above). Watling briefly mentioned Holden's (1965) report of an alleged poisoning of a three year old child in Great Britain, and argued that "because of its wide spread distribution, and its frequency on lawns and in parks P. foenisecii is likely to cause poisonings, especially in young children."

Cooles (1980) reported that three teen?agers in the British Isles sought emergency treatment after each had allegedly consumed between 20 to 30 mushrooms. The mushrooms in this case were reported to be Panaeolina foenisecii; however, all three patients displayed symptoms of visual disturbances which included "euphoria and hallucinations of color and speed of movements such that lawns developed patches of brilliant colors and cars moved frighteningly fast." It is possible that these three young teen?agers may have consumed some specimens of Panaeolina foenisecii; but the symptoms described are similar to those associated with the ingestion of Psilocybe species (i.e., P. semilanceata (Fr. ex Secr.) Kumm., which is native to the British Isles, and P. cubensis (Earle) Singer, a commonly ingested psychoactive species which is not indigenous to these islands, but can be grown indoors clandestinely). In 1982, Beug and Bigwood published their analysis of two collections of Psathyrella foenisecii (syn, P. foenisecii) collected in 1978 from the Pacific Northwest. They reported the fungus specimens to be void of any psilocybin or psilocin.

Christiansen, Rasmussen, and Holland (1984) analyzed Norwegian specimens of Panaeolina collected from a lawn in September of 1982 and detected no indole compounds. Stijve, Hischenhuber, and Ashley (1984) "...are of the opinion that P. foenisecii cannot contain psilocybin or psilocin at all." These scientists came to this conclusion after analyzing 16 different collections of P. foenisecii from 8 countries, including Australia, the United States and six in Europe. Specimens analyzed for possible indole compounds were collected over an eleven year period (1973?1982). Stijve, Hischenhuber, and Ashley also conducted controlled laboratory experiments with human volunteers to test the possible effects of P. foenisecii; however, "...even the equivalent of 40 gm of fresh mushrooms failed to produce any psychotropic effect." Gartz (1985) reported that his study and analysis of 100 specimens of P. foenisecii were psilocybin negative. More recently Ohenoja et al. (1987) detected psilocybin (0.03)% in two separate dried specimens collected in Finland.

In 1977, Allen (1988a) collected a species of Panaeolina in Oxnard, California which macroscopically resembled P. foenisecii; later, Allen bioassayed this species and found that the mushrooms (40 fresh specimens weighing 52 gm) were definitely psychoactive. No voucher specimens were saved for examination. It is possible that the specimens collected in this case were misidentified by Allen and were actually Panaeolus castaneifolius (Murr.) Ola'h=Panaeolina castaneifolius (Murr.) Smith, or a similar related variety of Panaeolus. Allen (1988b) also reported that two elderly ladies were intoxicated by Panaeolina foenisecii in Portland, Oregon.

According to a recent study by Young (1988) "...chromatographic analysis of Australian Material (Panaeolina foenisecii) has not yet demonstrated the presence of any psilocybin in this species."

Based on his personal ingestion of the fungus, John Leonard (1989, Pers. Comm.), a resident of Hingham, Massachusetts, claimed that Panaeolina foenisecii collected on his own front lawn was psychoactive in large quantity. Voucher specimens of Leonard's 1985 collection have been deposited at the Bishop Herbarium in Honolulu, Hawaii for scientific examination (1989. 363. Sheet # 580325. May?June 1985. Plymouth, Mass.). Two other collections of Leonard's specimens were forwarded to Dr. T. Stijve in Switzerland for study. Botanical identity was confirmed and chemical properties were established. Both collections of the fungi were analyzed by High Performance Liquid Chromatography and by High Performance Thin Layered Chromatography with identical results (see Fig. 2). Comparative analyses using specimens of Copelandia cyanescens from the Hawaiian Islands shows that both of Leonard's collections of Panaeolina foenisecii from Massachusetts contain characteristic compounds of Panaeolus species. These include urea, serotonin and its precursor 5?hydroxytryptophan. Although tryptophan might also present, there is definitely no psilocybin or psilocin, (i.e., 0.01% dry weight). Also the absence of bufotonin (5?hydroxy?N, N? dimethyltryptamine) suggests that the fungi is not able to methylate serotonin (Stijve et al., 1984). The results in figure 2 show the difference.

Recently a popular American publication devoted to the drug subculture featured a pictorial which described Panaeolina foenisecii as a common psychoactive fungi (Brolyn 1990).

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Read my paper from the {Yearbook for Ethnomedicine and the Study of Consiousness in the General Information section of this website.

Here is the URL for that work.

http://www.shroomery.org/index/par/12179

mjshroomer


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Offlineshowcivic17
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: mjshroomer]
    #1610683 - 06/05/03 07:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Panaeolus foenisecii:

(Also known as Paneaolina foenisecii or Psilocybe foenisecii, and commonly
known as haymower's mushroom or harvest mushroom)

Found in late spring and early summer, or in July, August, and September
during cool, wet seasons scattered or grouped in large numbers on lawns,
pastures, and other grassy places throughout the USA and in Quebec. Tests
on specimens found in Washington revealed no psilocybin, but eastern
specimens were potent.


this was takin from the shroomery


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Invisiblemjshroomer
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: showcivic17]
    #1610847 - 06/05/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Tests
on specimens found in Washington revealed no psilocybin, but eastern specimens were potent.




Regarding this statement, there were no tests ever in any literature to verify this statement.

Panaeolina is not psychoactive. That statement above was based on the statement I posted above by Haard and Haard and by Gary Menser. It is not a valid statement and no literature supports it. There is no scientific data to say that a shroom on the west coast can be vioid of chemicals and that a similar shroom on the east coast of America could be psychoactive.

And again, Panaeolina is not a psychoactive mushroom-
Iit is not a Psilocybe mushroom. It is in a separate genera.

There are four species inthe genus,
Panaeolina foenisecii Maire,
Panaeolina rhombisperma Hongo,
Panaeolina sagarae Hongo
and
Panaeolina microsperma Natarajan and Raman.

They all have chocolate sporeprints

There are 13 species of Panaeolus. They all have black sporeprints.

There are more than 125 Psilocybe species,
They have a chocolate to Purple -brown sporeprint

And as noted above, at one time different mycologists placed this species in Psilocybe and Psathyrella.


IT is now a verifired species as a Panaeolina beloinging to its own genera.

I too couild go find many old books which list this species as a Psilocybe, a Psathyrella and/or a Panaeolus..

Three different muycologists gave it those names and placed it in different families around the same times and it changed over the years to where it stands now,

THose three genera are all a serate genus from Panaeolina

What is so hrd for you to uncerstand that.

I have been currently working on rewriting the whole FAQ and field guide for MR. Mushroom which I wrote four years ago but Ythan and Aphex never finished putting in all of the corrections i sent them and/or deleting the many errors posted in the FAQ.

There are also several other shrooms lisited in the FAQ which are incorrect and not psychoactive.

And in the Mushroom guide for picking mushrooms you have statements such as:

Quote:

Amanita muscaria, a psilocybine mushroom is the famed mushroom of Mexico.




This is also one of dozens of errors left in the FAQ which were never corrected.

And enough on this mushroom,

mj


Edited by mjshroomer (06/05/03 10:30 AM)


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OfflineHidingInPlainSight
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Re: Possible panaeolus subbalteatus in Bahamas! [Re: HidingInPlainSight]
    #1614494 - 06/06/03 01:56 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

the sporeprint that i took was grey because the were very little spores that were dropped due to the dryness of the specimen... but whenever i wiped the spores with my thumb to gather them all up they were black.


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