|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Impermanence thoughts of the day
#16056256 - 04/07/12 09:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
"The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16056360 - 04/07/12 10:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
speaking of disintegration i wonder just how my poor kitty feels about it rip buddy
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle] 1
#16056367 - 04/07/12 10:26 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
same same
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Tony
Stranger

Registered: 09/25/09
Posts: 958
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16056428 - 04/07/12 10:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
It's a subtle difference for sure. There's no point when a 'thing' reaches completion, it's all change from the get-go. So can any thing be said to exist..
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Tony]
#16057393 - 04/07/12 02:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Tony said:
Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
It's a subtle difference for sure. There's no point when a 'thing' reaches completion, it's all change from the get-go. So can any thing be said to exist..
The answer for me is yes. Things can be said to exist. But I cannot accurately pinpoint the beginning or the end because they are so inseperable. Change brings things into existence and change takes them out. I don't know if that flow actually has a beginning or end. So any beginning or end that I can see is most likely not even close to the whole story as a subtle look at impermanence reveals and as science reinforces with laws of conservation.
For me the subtle view is terrifying because it reminds me that I have no way to grasp what is going on. That there is no firm ground anywhere. This is also what gives me the most sureity.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16064740 - 04/09/12 10:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
This has somewhat turned into the impermanence thought of the week. Every discussion leads me back to this thought.
Someone was talking about the idiocy of an inflationary economy and all I could think was, yeah, but of course! Money was doomed to decay the instant it came into existence. Although it is still around, inflation is a sure sign of subtle impermanence. And for some reason I find this a very freeing look. The ideal of finding the perfect solution suddenly becomes incompatible with everything seen. And not due to individual impermanence but because all things are destined to fail upon their creation. I've felt most idealism is misplaced due to cyclic existence but this brings the view much closer to this very moment. No need to rely or believe in what history has shown. Just look at the decay that is happening to everything that exists right now. An instant counter for whatever perfect world the mind can dream up then is to just look around. Speeding up the death of the dreams. Not allowing them to take hold and build more disappointment and discontent. The closer their death is to the moment of creation, the closer to not dreaming at all. The closer to life as it really is.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16065206 - 04/09/12 12:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So agree and the subject of my walk meditations today. Very few ever realize these truths about the nature of existence, due imo to death anxieties. If they notice that things cannot be perfected and decay then they will have to notice that they are going to die at any moment. So they go on struggling to make things right and becoming angry when it won't work. The buddha built his psychology/philosophy around this one thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Icelander]
#16068039 - 04/09/12 11:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Agreed. I sometimes feel like I'm molting tho, its weird.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16068640 - 04/10/12 02:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
that is weird...
it also usually strikes me as weird when people say things like 'life is impermanence', as if that statement was the one permanent thing they can hold on to...
it seems these paradoxical positions are inescapable, but only more obvious, and useless, and uninteresting maybe, when one tries constantly to reduce ones life, experience and the stuff going on in it, to some singular thought or idea, or concept...
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
cbub
it


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 1,412
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068670 - 04/10/12 03:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-Hold this vase. +Are you crazy? It must be worth a fortune! -No problem, I already see it as broken. -Adya
Is attachment a sickness?
-------------------- It's fine.
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: cbub]
#16068688 - 04/10/12 03:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-Babysit my kids will ya? +Are you crazy? That man is a known killer! -No problem, I already see them as decaying corpses...
(...and they annoy the hell outta me anyways...)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
cbub
it


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 1,412
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068691 - 04/10/12 03:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Maybe that's why buddha left his family behind
-------------------- It's fine.
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: cbub]
#16068696 - 04/10/12 03:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
maybe ...
the reason why i want to leave my family behind is no particular fault of their own, but because i feel i have long established patterns of behaviour and thought bundled up with them that i need to get out of but cant because every time i try it is those very patterns which i fall back on .
then again. i feel like blamin something like yer folks or situation, even if buddah did, is probably just an easy way out... maybe i'll just stay put...
|
crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068892 - 04/10/12 06:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'm trying to work out here what exactly physical laws have to do with spirituality itself. I suppose if you are assuming there is no guiding force or purpose or meaning behind the universe it is then apparent that impermanence/change as a physical law is directly the nature of existence. Then everything is reduced to transient appearances in void.
From the converse point of view impermanence and change are the tools by which ever more complex things are created. This itself isn't the very nature of existence but a means-to-the-end, and that end being merely the start of a new cycle. But the thing is, this leads to the opposite conclusion: everything is as permanent as permanent gets and is set in stone. Decay is what happens when you increase the resolution of reality, literally. In 2D this turns into pixellation, in 4D it turns into broken vases.
Life as a whole is immortal and permanent. Individuals die. But I'm the same spark of life that birthed and reproduced 4.6 billion years ago, as are you. Resize an image, it becomes pixellated. Now smooth out the pixellations and add some detail to the photo. You've now "killed" a bunch of objects and created something new. Resize the image again, smooth out the pixels, add some detail. What was once precious detail, became a bunch of useless pixels.
TL;DR - Increasing entropy does not mean "nothing lasts". Everything does.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (04/10/12 06:23 AM)
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16068935 - 04/10/12 06:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
if everything is impermanent then impermanence is impermanent making everything permanent and impermanent. this is the logical fallacy of Buddhism but nothing is perfect and it's quite likely that reality isn't logical.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
White Beard

Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: blingbling]
#16069018 - 04/10/12 07:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
But impermanence isn't really a thing, no?
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16069121 - 04/10/12 08:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
crkhd said: I'm trying to work out here what exactly physical laws have to do with spirituality itself. I suppose if you are assuming there is no guiding force or purpose or meaning behind the universe it is then apparent that impermanence/change as a physical law is directly the nature of existence. Then everything is reduced to transient appearances in void.
From the converse point of view impermanence and change are the tools by which ever more complex things are created. This itself isn't the very nature of existence but a means-to-the-end, and that end being merely the start of a new cycle. But the thing is, this leads to the opposite conclusion: everything is as permanent as permanent gets and is set in stone. Decay is what happens when you increase the resolution of reality, literally. In 2D this turns into pixellation, in 4D it turns into broken vases.
Life as a whole is immortal and permanent. Individuals die. But I'm the same spark of life that birthed and reproduced 4.6 billion years ago, as are you. Resize an image, it becomes pixellated. Now smooth out the pixellations and add some detail to the photo. You've now "killed" a bunch of objects and created something new. Resize the image again, smooth out the pixels, add some detail. What was once precious detail, became a bunch of useless pixels.
TL;DR - Increasing entropy does not mean "nothing lasts". Everything does.
Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it. If you cannot lose it, just send it my way. Just send it my way and zoom out, smooth out any doubts about it's loss. After all, you wouldn't really be losing that money.
If you're not willing to then you're just telling another story and not being overly honest. Stop pulling my leg.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16069142 - 04/10/12 08:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quinn said: that is weird...
it also usually strikes me as weird when people say things like 'life is impermanence', as if that statement was the one permanent thing they can hold on to...
it seems these paradoxical positions are inescapable, but only more obvious, and useless, and uninteresting maybe, when one tries constantly to reduce ones life, experience and the stuff going on in it, to some singular thought or idea, or concept...
Well my personal goal is not to reduce life but rather to see it as it is. There are several ideas and concepts that are useful in this endeavor. The idea of impermanence, when put into practice, quite literally watches itself erode. The goal IME is not to hold the idea indefinitely as it would pretty quickly be seen as impossible. But rather to put it into practice and therefore open one's eyes to what is happening. What is happening is really not reducible to anything.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Symbols
§✪λⓡɕHⒶŠƎƦ

Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 688
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069154 - 04/10/12 08:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
What if impermanence is itself a condition in life that is also impermanent? In a limitless multiverse, the tendency for existence to continually change may one day itself change, landing in a more static condition. Timelessness itself seems to indicate a lack of change. If there is nothingness and a no-thing, then what is there to be permanent or impermanent? These qualifiers themselves seem partial.
--------------------
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Symbols]
#16069164 - 04/10/12 08:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There are a lot of alternative possibilities but I don't see any of them. I'm far more concerned with where I am than where I could be.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069437 - 04/10/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it. If you cannot lose it, just send it my way. Just send it my way and zoom out, smooth out any doubts about it's loss. After all, you wouldn't really be losing that money. [emphasis added]
If you're not willing to then you're just telling another story and not being overly honest. Stop pulling my leg.
There's a difference between personal identity and global identity. I care much about my survival. But life itself has no qualms eating little ol' me, in the form of a hungry tiger for example.
Regardless, I think you missed the point. If you're treating things as distinct objects then all things that arise are beset by 'subtle impermanence'. We tend to create the distinction between objects by finding boundaries and calling those the limits of the object: skin, edges, births, deaths. The universe as a single contiguous block is not subject to any impermanence.
'Decay' itself is an illusory appearance. Drop a light bulb on the floor and it smashes. One light bulb passes away, a zillion shards of glass are born. Leave your bike out in the rain. Clean bike dies, rusty bike is born.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
|
Symbols
§✪λⓡɕHⒶŠƎƦ

Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 688
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16069476 - 04/10/12 10:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
One light bulb passes away, a zillion shards of glass are born.
Destruction as a form of creation.
The distinction is largely a product of perspective.
--------------------
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16069496 - 04/10/12 10:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069509 - 04/10/12 10:23 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
How does the proof of the statement "the universe as a single contiguous block is not subject to any impermanence" translate to "send Kickle your money"? I'm not quite grasping.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16069621 - 04/10/12 10:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You said a lot more than that.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069664 - 04/10/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069964 - 04/10/12 12:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.
So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16070004 - 04/10/12 12:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: You said a lot more than that.
Detail that which translates into "send Kickle your money". How exactly does anything I said require money transfer to be valid?
You said: "Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it."
Where is that even remotely implied? It seems more like you're skirting around the issue that things are in fact, quite permanent.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
|
Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16070097 - 04/10/12 01:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think understanding impermanence is understanding anything conceptual at all, its more a feeling of understanding that everything passes/is passing
We can think 'everything passes' but its the feeling 'everything passes', the feeling of letting go, that matters Then it matters to not hold on to that feeling
Then nothing matters
--------------------
|
cbub
it


Registered: 10/17/10
Posts: 1,412
Last seen: 5 years, 11 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Chronic7]
#16070743 - 04/10/12 03:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
if everything is impermanent then impermanence is impermanent making everything permanent and impermanent. this is the logical fallacy of Buddhism but nothing is perfect and it's quite likely that reality isn't logical.
We know that earth revolves around the sun, yet when we use the senses, they tell us it's the other way around. In the same way we can't wrap our minds around the proper time concept, it's not what our senses tell us. It's been shown many times by best physicists, that time is a spacial dimension and we move along it involuntarily. So, everything already is as is - permanent. There's just different locations and things are in different states at different locations which is impermanence. So what you said can make perfect logical sense.
-------------------- It's fine.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16071137 - 04/10/12 04:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
crkhd said:
Quote:
Kickle said: You said a lot more than that.
Detail that which translates into "send Kickle your money". How exactly does anything I said require money transfer to be valid?
You said: "Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it."
Where is that even remotely implied? It seems more like you're skirting around the issue that things are in fact, quite permanent.
You are free to believe what you want. You believe that things are permanent but do not act in accordance with this belief. I'm not saying what way you should view things or go about the world. I'm just pointing out that your actions don't follow what you're saying.
As for where it's implied, permanent things do not change. So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right? But you won't send me your money, so apparently something does change if you send it my way. Something is lost. If you were really convinced that it could not be lost, you wouldn't be afraid to let it go.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
#16071205 - 04/10/12 04:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
Kickle said: I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.
So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.
nothing about truth there. i would think that if one were speaking the truth however that it would be true wherever I looked, including in their actions.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16071429 - 04/10/12 05:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Quote:
Kickle said: I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.
So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.
nothing about truth there. i would think that if one were speaking the truth however that it would be true wherever I looked, including in their actions.
I don't see it. Why?
As for why not, truth and action are unrelated IMO. A simple example of this is that one man may be telling the truth of what is best for physical health and would show all the signs of living that and the benefits whereas another could agree purely by observing the merits of that man. Of course that example doesn't have to apply to a person observing a human spectrum of results.
You might even argue rigorous observation yields a closer approximation to truth (as with the scientific method).
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
#16071502 - 04/10/12 05:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
we have a different understanding of the word truth 
I'd find the most truthful person about health the one who said it depends, and this could be seen in their actions as well as others. One can list what works for them personally but it is likely completely unrealistic for another person due to any number of factors and in no way will help them find health.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16071597 - 04/10/12 05:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i've been doing some thinking about the logical fallacy of impermanence and i think i've figured it out. pure logic does not describe reality. for example:
if A = C and B = A then B = C. this is logical.
if BLUE = GREEN and YELLOW = BLUE then YELLOW = GREEN. this is logical but it fails to describe reality (blue is blue and not any other colour etc.) because reality is factual first and logical second. without the proper facts logic fails to describe reality. perhaps we can think of impermanence as a fact based in reality that supersedes logic.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16071666 - 04/10/12 06:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: we have a different understanding of the word truth 
I'd find the most truthful person about health the one who said it depends, and this could be seen in their actions as well as others. One can list what works for them personally but it is likely completely unrealistic for another person due to any number of factors and in no way will help them find health.
How so?
That just isn't true IMO, medical science has provable and genuine results. There's no such thing as absolute truth and my definition of the word is approximate as the former simply doesn't make sense as a real definition to me and that's how I used it and how I interpreted your first statement. In the same veign the science acts as a guideline although it doesn't apply in every sense.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
#16071681 - 04/10/12 06:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Use a fixed definition of health if it works for you. I won't hold myself to any standard other than my own as I find health a relative truth from the get go.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
crkhd
☾☼☽

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 2,401
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 8 months, 7 days
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16075551 - 04/11/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said: You are free to believe what you want. You believe that things are permanent but do not act in accordance with this belief. I'm not saying what way you should view things or go about the world. I'm just pointing out that your actions don't follow what you're saying.
As for where it's implied, permanent things do not change. So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right? But you won't send me your money, so apparently something does change if you send it my way. Something is lost. If you were really convinced that it could not be lost, you wouldn't be afraid to let it go.
When writing that post I did not follow that line of reasoning:
"So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right?"
Don't know how you extrapolated that. It absolutely is not the same whole in either case. We are talking about very different ideas of permanence here. It's not that I "permanently" own any of the money. It's the fact that supposing I gave that money to you, it would be a permanent truth that the money went in your direction. If I burnt that money, again it would be a permanent thing that the money once was, then a pile of ashes arose from its death. In 3 dimensions things appear to come and go.
If you look at the truly real 4 dimensional paths they trace out in time, there is no impermanence. Every single photon that has ever traced a path has contributed to making now what it is. That is permanence. It's not a "story", it's the fundamental statement of science.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
|
quinn
some kinda love


Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16076616 - 04/11/12 05:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Kickle said:
Well my personal goal is not to reduce life but rather to see it as it is. There are several ideas and concepts that are useful in this endeavor. The idea of impermanence, when put into practice, quite literally watches itself erode. The goal IME is not to hold the idea indefinitely as it would pretty quickly be seen as impossible. But rather to put it into practice and therefore open one's eyes to what is happening. What is happening is really not reducible to anything.
agreed 
secondly in referece to the opQuote:
Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun.
would it not be even more 'subtle' to say that things don't 'come into existance' nor do they 'disintegrate' or 'decay' but simply that shit is constantly changing?
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
|
deff
just love everyone



Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,406
Loc: clarity
Last seen: 5 hours, 24 minutes
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16077282 - 04/11/12 08:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quinn said: would it not be even more 'subtle' to say that things don't 'come into existance' nor do they 'disintegrate' or 'decay' but simply that shit is constantly changing?
yeah that's how i've always understood 'subtle impermanence' - that things are constantly changing and nothing stays the same for even a split second - from this kind of understanding of impermanence, it's very easy to see that things have no fixed nature of their own (they're empty)
--------------------
|
blingbling
what you chicken stew?

Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: deff]
#16077317 - 04/11/12 08:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
form is an illusion?
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16077437 - 04/11/12 08:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
quinn said: secondly in referece to the opQuote:
Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun.
would it not be even more 'subtle' to say that things don't 'come into existance' nor do they 'disintegrate' or 'decay' but simply that shit is constantly changing?
IMO that's the difference between an ultimate truth and a relative truth. Subtle impermanence is a great relative truth. Relative to this body, I can see the origin and with it the birth of its decline. What's even more, I can experience it directly. On a larger scale, incorporating as much as humanly possible, there is no set origin or set end. It's constant change. I alluded to this earlier as a reason I don't believe anything in an ultimate sense, only a relative one. Even talking about this as if it were representative of the ultimate truth is somewhat misleading.
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Tao" and all that jazz
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
Kickle
Wanderer


Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 17,848
Last seen: 1 day, 14 hours
|
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16077447 - 04/11/12 08:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
crkhd said:
Quote:
Kickle said: You are free to believe what you want. You believe that things are permanent but do not act in accordance with this belief. I'm not saying what way you should view things or go about the world. I'm just pointing out that your actions don't follow what you're saying.
As for where it's implied, permanent things do not change. So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right? But you won't send me your money, so apparently something does change if you send it my way. Something is lost. If you were really convinced that it could not be lost, you wouldn't be afraid to let it go.
When writing that post I did not follow that line of reasoning:
"So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right?"
Don't know how you extrapolated that. It absolutely is not the same whole in either case. We are talking about very different ideas of permanence here. It's not that I "permanently" own any of the money. It's the fact that supposing I gave that money to you, it would be a permanent truth that the money went in your direction. If I burnt that money, again it would be a permanent thing that the money once was, then a pile of ashes arose from its death. In 3 dimensions things appear to come and go.
If you look at the truly real 4 dimensional paths they trace out in time, there is no impermanence. Every single photon that has ever traced a path has contributed to making now what it is. That is permanence. It's not a "story", it's the fundamental statement of science.
You've lost me with why you responded to this thread in the first place
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
|
|