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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16069437 - 04/10/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it. If you cannot lose it, just send it my way. Just send it my way and zoom out, smooth out any doubts about it's loss. After all, you wouldn't really be losing that money. [emphasis added]

If you're not willing to then you're just telling another story and not being overly honest. Stop pulling my leg.




There's a difference between personal identity and global identity. I care much about my survival. But life itself has no qualms eating little ol' me, in the form of a hungry tiger for example.

Regardless, I think you missed the point. If you're treating things as distinct objects then all things that arise are beset by 'subtle impermanence'. We tend to create the distinction between objects by finding boundaries and calling those the limits of the object: skin, edges, births, deaths. The universe as a single contiguous block is not subject to any impermanence.

'Decay' itself is an illusory appearance. Drop a light bulb on the floor and it smashes. One light bulb passes away, a zillion shards of glass are born. Leave your bike out in the rain. Clean bike dies, rusty bike is born.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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InvisibleSymbols
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Registered: 03/13/12
Posts: 688
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
    #16069476 - 04/10/12 10:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

One light bulb passes away, a zillion shards of glass are born.




Destruction as a form of creation.

The distinction is largely a product of perspective.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
    #16069496 - 04/10/12 10:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16069509 - 04/10/12 10:23 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

How does the proof of the statement "the universe as a single contiguous block is not subject to any impermanence" translate to "send Kickle your money"? I'm not quite grasping.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
    #16069621 - 04/10/12 10:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

You said a lot more than that.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16069664 - 04/10/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.



:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16069964 - 04/10/12 12:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.




So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16070004 - 04/10/12 12:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
You said a lot more than that.




Detail that which translates into "send Kickle your money". How exactly does anything I said require money transfer to be valid?

You said: "Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it."

Where is that even remotely implied? It seems more like you're skirting around the issue that things are in fact, quite permanent.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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InvisibleChronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16070097 - 04/10/12 01:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I don't think understanding impermanence is understanding anything conceptual at all, its more a feeling of understanding that everything passes/is passing

We can think 'everything passes' but its the feeling 'everything passes', the feeling of letting go, that matters
Then it matters to not hold on to that feeling

Then nothing matters :lol:


--------------------


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Chronic7]
    #16070743 - 04/10/12 03:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

if everything is impermanent then impermanence is impermanent making everything permanent and impermanent. this is the logical fallacy of Buddhism but nothing is perfect and it's quite likely that reality isn't logical.




We know that earth revolves around the sun, yet when we use the senses, they tell us it's the other way around. In the same way we can't wrap our minds around the proper time concept, it's not what our senses tell us. It's been shown many times by best physicists, that time is a spacial dimension and we move along it involuntarily. So, everything already is as is - permanent. There's just different locations and things are in different states at different locations which is impermanence.
So what you said can make perfect logical sense.


--------------------
It's fine.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
    #16071137 - 04/10/12 04:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

crkhd said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
You said a lot more than that.




Detail that which translates into "send Kickle your money". How exactly does anything I said require money transfer to be valid?

You said: "Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it."

Where is that even remotely implied? It seems more like you're skirting around the issue that things are in fact, quite permanent.




You are free to believe what you want. You believe that things are permanent but do not act in accordance with this belief. I'm not saying what way you should view things or go about the world. I'm just pointing out that your actions don't follow what you're saying.

As for where it's implied, permanent things do not change. So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right? But you won't send me your money, so apparently something does change if you send it my way. Something is lost. If you were really convinced that it could not be lost, you wouldn't be afraid to let it go.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
    #16071205 - 04/10/12 04:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.




So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.




nothing about truth there. i would think that if one were speaking the truth however that it would be true wherever I looked, including in their actions.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16071429 - 04/10/12 05:21 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Quote:

Kickle said:
I did not miss your point. I just think its a load of bs to say but not live. A fiction.




So everything we live is the truth or related to it, even the right or only way to live? Not so IMO.




nothing about truth there. i would think that if one were speaking the truth however that it would be true wherever I looked, including in their actions.




I don't see it. Why?

As for why not, truth and action are unrelated IMO. A simple example of this is that one man may be telling the truth of what is best for physical health and would show all the signs of living that and the benefits whereas another could agree purely by observing the merits of that man. Of course that example doesn't have to apply to a person observing a human spectrum of results.

You might even argue rigorous observation yields a closer approximation to truth (as with the scientific method).


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
    #16071502 - 04/10/12 05:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

we have a different understanding of the word truth :yesnod:

I'd find the most truthful person about health the one who said it depends, and this could be seen in their actions as well as others. One can list what works for them personally but it is likely completely unrealistic for another person due to any number of factors and in no way will help them find health.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16071597 - 04/10/12 05:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

i've been doing some thinking about the logical fallacy of impermanence and i think i've figured it out. pure logic does not describe reality. for example:

if A = C and B = A then B = C. this is logical.

if BLUE = GREEN and YELLOW = BLUE then YELLOW = GREEN. this is logical but it fails to describe reality (blue is blue and not any other colour etc.) because reality is factual first and logical second. without the proper facts logic fails to describe reality. perhaps we can think of impermanence as a fact based in reality that supersedes logic.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16071666 - 04/10/12 06:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
we have a different understanding of the word truth :yesnod:

I'd find the most truthful person about health the one who said it depends, and this could be seen in their actions as well as others. One can list what works for them personally but it is likely completely unrealistic for another person due to any number of factors and in no way will help them find health.




How so?

That just isn't true IMO, medical science has provable and genuine results. There's no such thing as absolute truth and my definition of the word is approximate as the former simply doesn't make sense as a real definition to me and that's how I used it and how I interpreted your first statement. In the same veign the science acts as a guideline although it doesn't apply in every sense.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Grapefruit]
    #16071681 - 04/10/12 06:12 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Use a fixed definition of health if it works for you. I won't hold myself to any standard other than my own as I find health a relative truth from the get go.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16075551 - 04/11/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:
You are free to believe what you want. You believe that things are permanent but do not act in accordance with this belief. I'm not saying what way you should view things or go about the world. I'm just pointing out that your actions don't follow what you're saying.

As for where it's implied, permanent things do not change. So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right? But you won't send me your money, so apparently something does change if you send it my way. Something is lost. If you were really convinced that it could not be lost, you wouldn't be afraid to let it go.





When writing that post I did not follow that line of reasoning:

"So the money in my hands or yours doesn't matter, it's the same permanent whole either way, right?"

Don't know how you extrapolated that. It absolutely is not the same whole in either case. We are talking about very different ideas of permanence here. It's not that I "permanently" own any of the money. It's the fact that supposing I gave that money to you, it would be a permanent truth that the money went in your direction. If I burnt that money, again it would be a permanent thing that the money once was, then a pile of ashes arose from its death. In 3 dimensions things appear to come and go.

If you look at the truly real 4 dimensional paths they trace out in time, there is no impermanence. Every single photon that has ever traced a path has contributed to making now what it is. That is permanence. It's not a "story", it's the fundamental statement of science.


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
    #16076616 - 04/11/12 05:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:

Well my personal goal is not to reduce life but rather to see it as it is. There are several ideas and concepts that are useful in this endeavor. The idea of impermanence, when put into practice, quite literally watches itself erode. The goal IME is not to hold the idea indefinitely as it would pretty quickly be seen as impossible. But rather to put it into practice and therefore open one's eyes to what is happening. What is happening is really not reducible to anything.




agreed :thumbup:

secondly in referece to the op
Quote:


Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun.




would it not be even more 'subtle' to say that things don't 'come into existance' nor do they 'disintegrate' or 'decay' but simply that shit is constantly changing?


--------------------
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Offlinedeff
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
    #16077282 - 04/11/12 08:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
would it not be even more 'subtle' to say that things don't 'come into existance' nor do they 'disintegrate' or 'decay' but simply that shit is constantly changing?





yeah that's how i've always understood 'subtle impermanence' - that things are constantly changing and nothing stays the same for even a split second - from this kind of understanding of impermanence, it's very easy to see that things have no fixed nature of their own (they're empty)


--------------------



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