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Kickle
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Impermanence thoughts of the day
#16056256 - 04/07/12 09:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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LunarEclipse
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16056360 - 04/07/12 10:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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speaking of disintegration i wonder just how my poor kitty feels about it rip buddy
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle] 1
#16056367 - 04/07/12 10:26 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
same same
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Tony
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16056428 - 04/07/12 10:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
It's a subtle difference for sure. There's no point when a 'thing' reaches completion, it's all change from the get-go. So can any thing be said to exist..
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Tony]
#16057393 - 04/07/12 02:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tony said:
Quote:
Kickle said: "The transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun." - Tenzin Gyatso
It's a subtle difference for sure. There's no point when a 'thing' reaches completion, it's all change from the get-go. So can any thing be said to exist..
The answer for me is yes. Things can be said to exist. But I cannot accurately pinpoint the beginning or the end because they are so inseperable. Change brings things into existence and change takes them out. I don't know if that flow actually has a beginning or end. So any beginning or end that I can see is most likely not even close to the whole story as a subtle look at impermanence reveals and as science reinforces with laws of conservation.
For me the subtle view is terrifying because it reminds me that I have no way to grasp what is going on. That there is no firm ground anywhere. This is also what gives me the most sureity.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16064740 - 04/09/12 10:47 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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This has somewhat turned into the impermanence thought of the week. Every discussion leads me back to this thought.
Someone was talking about the idiocy of an inflationary economy and all I could think was, yeah, but of course! Money was doomed to decay the instant it came into existence. Although it is still around, inflation is a sure sign of subtle impermanence. And for some reason I find this a very freeing look. The ideal of finding the perfect solution suddenly becomes incompatible with everything seen. And not due to individual impermanence but because all things are destined to fail upon their creation. I've felt most idealism is misplaced due to cyclic existence but this brings the view much closer to this very moment. No need to rely or believe in what history has shown. Just look at the decay that is happening to everything that exists right now. An instant counter for whatever perfect world the mind can dream up then is to just look around. Speeding up the death of the dreams. Not allowing them to take hold and build more disappointment and discontent. The closer their death is to the moment of creation, the closer to not dreaming at all. The closer to life as it really is.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Icelander
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16065206 - 04/09/12 12:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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So agree and the subject of my walk meditations today. Very few ever realize these truths about the nature of existence, due imo to death anxieties. If they notice that things cannot be perfected and decay then they will have to notice that they are going to die at any moment. So they go on struggling to make things right and becoming angry when it won't work. The buddha built his psychology/philosophy around this one thing.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Icelander]
#16068039 - 04/09/12 11:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Agreed. I sometimes feel like I'm molting tho, its weird.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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quinn
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16068640 - 04/10/12 02:40 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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that is weird...
it also usually strikes me as weird when people say things like 'life is impermanence', as if that statement was the one permanent thing they can hold on to...
it seems these paradoxical positions are inescapable, but only more obvious, and useless, and uninteresting maybe, when one tries constantly to reduce ones life, experience and the stuff going on in it, to some singular thought or idea, or concept...
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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cbub
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068670 - 04/10/12 03:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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-Hold this vase. +Are you crazy? It must be worth a fortune! -No problem, I already see it as broken. -Adya
Is attachment a sickness?
-------------------- It's fine.
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quinn
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: cbub]
#16068688 - 04/10/12 03:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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-Babysit my kids will ya? +Are you crazy? That man is a known killer! -No problem, I already see them as decaying corpses...
(...and they annoy the hell outta me anyways...)
-------------------- dripping with fantasy
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cbub
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068691 - 04/10/12 03:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Maybe that's why buddha left his family behind
-------------------- It's fine.
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quinn
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: cbub]
#16068696 - 04/10/12 03:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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maybe ...
the reason why i want to leave my family behind is no particular fault of their own, but because i feel i have long established patterns of behaviour and thought bundled up with them that i need to get out of but cant because every time i try it is those very patterns which i fall back on .
then again. i feel like blamin something like yer folks or situation, even if buddah did, is probably just an easy way out... maybe i'll just stay put...
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crkhd
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16068892 - 04/10/12 06:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm trying to work out here what exactly physical laws have to do with spirituality itself. I suppose if you are assuming there is no guiding force or purpose or meaning behind the universe it is then apparent that impermanence/change as a physical law is directly the nature of existence. Then everything is reduced to transient appearances in void.
From the converse point of view impermanence and change are the tools by which ever more complex things are created. This itself isn't the very nature of existence but a means-to-the-end, and that end being merely the start of a new cycle. But the thing is, this leads to the opposite conclusion: everything is as permanent as permanent gets and is set in stone. Decay is what happens when you increase the resolution of reality, literally. In 2D this turns into pixellation, in 4D it turns into broken vases.
Life as a whole is immortal and permanent. Individuals die. But I'm the same spark of life that birthed and reproduced 4.6 billion years ago, as are you. Resize an image, it becomes pixellated. Now smooth out the pixellations and add some detail to the photo. You've now "killed" a bunch of objects and created something new. Resize the image again, smooth out the pixels, add some detail. What was once precious detail, became a bunch of useless pixels.
TL;DR - Increasing entropy does not mean "nothing lasts". Everything does.
-------------------- "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (04/10/12 06:23 AM)
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blingbling
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16068935 - 04/10/12 06:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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if everything is impermanent then impermanence is impermanent making everything permanent and impermanent. this is the logical fallacy of Buddhism but nothing is perfect and it's quite likely that reality isn't logical.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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White Beard

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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: blingbling]
#16069018 - 04/10/12 07:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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But impermanence isn't really a thing, no?
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: crkhd]
#16069121 - 04/10/12 08:19 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said: I'm trying to work out here what exactly physical laws have to do with spirituality itself. I suppose if you are assuming there is no guiding force or purpose or meaning behind the universe it is then apparent that impermanence/change as a physical law is directly the nature of existence. Then everything is reduced to transient appearances in void.
From the converse point of view impermanence and change are the tools by which ever more complex things are created. This itself isn't the very nature of existence but a means-to-the-end, and that end being merely the start of a new cycle. But the thing is, this leads to the opposite conclusion: everything is as permanent as permanent gets and is set in stone. Decay is what happens when you increase the resolution of reality, literally. In 2D this turns into pixellation, in 4D it turns into broken vases.
Life as a whole is immortal and permanent. Individuals die. But I'm the same spark of life that birthed and reproduced 4.6 billion years ago, as are you. Resize an image, it becomes pixellated. Now smooth out the pixellations and add some detail to the photo. You've now "killed" a bunch of objects and created something new. Resize the image again, smooth out the pixels, add some detail. What was once precious detail, became a bunch of useless pixels.
TL;DR - Increasing entropy does not mean "nothing lasts". Everything does.
Send me all your money then if it doesn't matter what is happening to it. If you cannot lose it, just send it my way. Just send it my way and zoom out, smooth out any doubts about it's loss. After all, you wouldn't really be losing that money.
If you're not willing to then you're just telling another story and not being overly honest. Stop pulling my leg.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: quinn]
#16069142 - 04/10/12 08:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said: that is weird...
it also usually strikes me as weird when people say things like 'life is impermanence', as if that statement was the one permanent thing they can hold on to...
it seems these paradoxical positions are inescapable, but only more obvious, and useless, and uninteresting maybe, when one tries constantly to reduce ones life, experience and the stuff going on in it, to some singular thought or idea, or concept...
Well my personal goal is not to reduce life but rather to see it as it is. There are several ideas and concepts that are useful in this endeavor. The idea of impermanence, when put into practice, quite literally watches itself erode. The goal IME is not to hold the idea indefinitely as it would pretty quickly be seen as impossible. But rather to put it into practice and therefore open one's eyes to what is happening. What is happening is really not reducible to anything.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Symbols
§✪λⓡɕHⒶŠƎƦ

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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Kickle]
#16069154 - 04/10/12 08:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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What if impermanence is itself a condition in life that is also impermanent? In a limitless multiverse, the tendency for existence to continually change may one day itself change, landing in a more static condition. Timelessness itself seems to indicate a lack of change. If there is nothingness and a no-thing, then what is there to be permanent or impermanent? These qualifiers themselves seem partial.
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Kickle
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Re: Impermanence thoughts of the day [Re: Symbols]
#16069164 - 04/10/12 08:36 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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There are a lot of alternative possibilities but I don't see any of them. I'm far more concerned with where I am than where I could be.
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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