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 johnm214
 
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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 Free will- a meaningful question or not? 
#16041586 - 04/04/12 02:50 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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The mystics and religious often talk about the concept quite a bit, but is free will really a meaningful, observable or falsifiable, phenomena?
It seems pretty clear that there's no reason the subject lacking in free will would necessarily know or observe anything different than if he had free will. How would you, for example, prove a person has free will or doesn't?
The religious often claim that because you have free will that god exists and gave it to you. These theists often criticize atheism/agnosticism by suggesting simple physical laws wouldn't produce free will and that therefore this view is wrong because we do have free will.
I suggest that the question is not meaningful- it has no observable difference. Is this right or wrong?
(it seems that to tell free will exists and is the province of the sole, as some rabbi I was listening to claimed, you'd have to know more than you could- you'd have to derive a working model of the person's decisions that accounts for all physical influences on a person's decisions and yet can't account for the subject's choices)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16041824 - 04/04/12 06:31 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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I've repeatedly stated the question is not meaningful yet it's one of the most popular topics here.
Tell me, why do you think that is?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 husmmoor
Invitro
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16041911 - 04/04/12 07:20 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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All concepts which aren't properly defined, are not really meaningful from a scientific perspective. So the answer seems pretty simple: are you willing to define "free will" properly, and in a way that makes it testable, or are you not. Trying to step up a bit from begging the question, making it meaningful even in a naive Popperian sense would be interesting to some degree, but would require actual scientific methodology not just name-calling and unscientific references to popular dichotomies of "religion" versus "science".
Is "religion" unscientific..? seems like you already have the answer, right?
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4896744
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16042118 - 04/04/12 08:45 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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I think the idea of "free" will just doesn't make sense. What is "free" about our will compared to any other creature's will?
I think it is also a meaningful question when people use free will as an argument. An example is saying that it is a poor person's fault that they are poor. I would say that it is only their fault in the way that the wind can be at fault for falling a tree, but people often think it is different for some reason.
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Live your Life! 
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16042699 - 04/04/12 11:38 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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If free will, whatever that means, wouldn't exist, would it still make sense to put people in prisons ?
I think every justice system is built on the assumption of 'free will', or at least that one has some 'control' over one's will.
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4896744
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#16042716 - 04/04/12 11:41 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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It still makes sense because the threat of prison is an incentive to follow the rules.
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Live your Life!
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: 4896744]
#16042990 - 04/04/12 12:43 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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Yah, I thought about that too, also to just remove them out of society, BUT
as the majority of people agree that they don't want those actions performed in their society, shouldn't they then not search in the CAUSES that made those 'criminal victims' made behave like they did, instead of just closing them away ?
That's only like 'curing' the symptoms, not the cause and that's not a preferable routine in medics 
And no, they couldn't have followed the rules if there was no free will.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16043094 - 04/04/12 12:59 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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No one ever takes my v-e-r-y simple free-will test. Take something(s) you find disgusting like fat chicks, broccoli or polka music. Now freely decide to instantaneously love it - not merely do a fat chick while listening to polka music after a plate of broccoli.  You must decide that this is your favorite food/fuck/music.
Yes, it sounds silly, but the reason we cannot is because of programming.
You think I am being facetious? American men, by and large, find women with hairy thighs a turn-off. In places where it is accepted, hairy thighs are a turn-on. Either way, it is the culture, not YOU, who is making the decision. (Please spare me the few exceptions.)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: 4896744]
#16043117 - 04/04/12 01:03 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I've repeatedly stated the question is not meaningful yet it's one of the most popular topics here.
Tell me, why do you think that is?
Interesting, I wasn't aware. I didn't explain my reasoning above too much, but do you agree or disagree with it?
Basically, I think its meaningless because when examining a person you wouldn't seem to be able to prove or disprove freewill. It doesn't seem that a person without free will would need to be any different than one with, and so it doesn't seem like like you could prove someone does have free will. As there appears no necessary consequence to not having free will, it doesn't seem like the question is falsifiable either.
As to your question, I think "that is" probably due to a number of things including death anxiety. People don't like the notion that they're animals (or worse, machines), and so invent often arbitrary or meaningless distinctions between them and that which they don't like to think of themselves as. It sure seemed that way with the Jewish dude I saw bringing up this issue (actually I've seen many jewish guys do this, not sure how that gets you to theism, but whatever). Simply: its disconcerting to think of yourself as some solipsistic illusion or automata so some invent differences without reason.
Quote:
husmmoor said:
All concepts which aren't properly defined, are not really meaningful from a scientific perspective. So the answer seems pretty simple: are you willing to define "free will" properly, and in a way that makes it testable, or are you not.
huh? I'm talking about a concept here, not a term. The words I used are not the subject of my discourse but the indications of that which is. Free will is the term used by the people I've heard discuss the concept, examples appear previously. A quick definition would be: the capability for voluntary decisions, i.e. the Christian/Jewish (probably Islamic too, don't know) conception of the nature of a person and their ability to choose their own actions, thoughts.
Quote:
Trying to step up a bit from begging the question
Where have I begged the question?
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Is "religion" unscientific..? seems like you already have the answer, right?
This is not what this thread is about and is not raised by my posts- if you feel you can prove this question is relevant then make the argument, but untill then I don't care. That isn't what this thread is about and I have a sneaking suspicion I know what kind of trivia I'll be wrapped up in if I expand the discourse to include this crap.
Quote:
iThink said:
I think it is also a meaningful question when people use free will as an argument. An example is saying that it is a poor person's fault that they are poor. I would say that it is only their fault in the way that the wind can be at fault for falling a tree, but people often think it is different for some reason.
But in that case, how would you address the question on the merits? It seems impossible to prove the poor person is free, so at most you could reject the argument invoking free will. That doesn't seem to suggest he question is meaningful as I defined it above.
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OrgoneConclusion said:
No one ever takes my v-e-r-y simple free-will test. Take something(s) you find disgusting like fat chicks, broccoli or polka music. Now freely decide to instantaneously love it - not merely do a fat chick while listening to polka music after a plate of broccoli. You must decide that this is your favorite food/fuck/music.
Yes, it sounds silly, but the reason we cannot is because of programming.
Neat idea- I like it. It certainly shows we might not have free will, and perhaps aren't free to change the things that would be required to meet your challenge.
I'm kind of surprised so many people seem to be agreeing with me for some reason. Do you agree with my reasons for rejecting the question as meaningful?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16043265 - 04/04/12 01:33 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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People don't like the notion that they're animals (or worse, machines), and so invent often arbitrary or meaningless distinctions between them and that which they don't like to think of themselves as.
You so smart guy what! 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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4896744
Small Town Girl
Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16043728 - 04/04/12 03:16 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
People don't like the notion that they're animals (or worse, machines), and so invent often arbitrary or meaningless distinctions between them and that which they don't like to think of themselves as.
This is the reason people tack on the free in free will imo. I also think some hold onto it to make themselves feel like they are better than others who are not as successful as themselves.
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Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: 4896744]
#16043734 - 04/04/12 03:18 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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You shouldn't talk about Zappa when he's not here to defend himself.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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4896744
Small Town Girl
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Posts: 5,128
Loc: United States
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: Icelander]
#16043761 - 04/04/12 03:24 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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 It applies to a few more people other than Zappa. 
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Live your Life!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: 4896744]
#16043825 - 04/04/12 03:37 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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I'm listening to Hot Rats as we speak.
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Quote:
No one ever takes my v-e-r-y simple free-will test. Take something(s) you find disgusting like fat chicks, broccoli or polka music. Now freely decide to instantaneously love it - not merely do a fat chick while listening to polka music after a plate of broccoli. You must decide that this is your favorite food/fuck/music.
Yes, it sounds silly, but the reason we cannot is because of programming.
Taken and passed with flying colors. This is not just silly, it's untrue. There are plenty of children who refuse to eat vegetables, won't drink alcohol or coffee, and also don't like anything outside of a narrow comfort zone, because all of these things are disgusting, and then grow into adults who eat salads, binge drink and go exploring. The change may not be instantaneous, but what does instantaneity have to do with will? Obviously a strong revulsion or attraction is the result of accumulated masses of experience (or fear thereof), so it must take time to undo those prejudices, but the time and experimentation taken doesn't preclude conscious, willful effort, it probably represents its maximum application.
But disgust can also shift in an instant. Hatred of musical genre is a little absurd, and it's simple in my experience to transform something irritating and hokey into the most captivating in-the-moment absorption - turn up the volume and give it my full attention, "pretend" that I like it and in so doing like it. There was some other recent post about this current acceptance of ironic enjoyment, whereby a group of people "in on the joke" listen to a hated genre of music together but dance and bob their heads and act as if they're actually enjoying themselves, which they are. If we are really so programmed to hate polka/country/opera it seems rather easy for us to reprogram the hatred ourselves, so that it is will rather than data input that changes our feelings.
Free will is a meaningful question regardless of whether it is directly observable because it reflects an internal attitude toward external phenomena. If you affirm the idea that there is none, you are bolstering such ideas as incontrovertible hatred or attraction linked with particular objects as opposed to a more internal and consciously directed appreciation that can rise to meet different objects as it sees fit. This appears to me shockingly disempowering, and it also reifies particular conceits that foster destructive and divisive ingroup/outgroup thinking.
Will doesn't hold illimitable dominion over all, but the affirmation of its power seems to lead us toward more confidence in self-direction. It's a seemingly inconsequential trick of language that reminds us of an inner force that need not be submissive to received wisdom or popular ideas.
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: zannennagara]
#16044419 - 04/04/12 06:04 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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I will 'guess' that over 99% of male or lesbian members will choose
A:
over
B:
as a bed partner.
Amazing how I can predict this 'free choice', eh?
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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There's no disputing that programming will point to A, but I think a good part of that preference is a terror of expressing or considering the possibility of sexual intimacy with someone contrary to fashion. In other words, the socially constructed revulsion is so dominant that espousing a willful decision would imply the desire for conformity that should probably be emphasized over some genetic/inborn lack of choice. There is free will at work here, it is simply being exercised to stay within the safe confines of what acceptably constitutes sexiness. We follow the immediate reaction that we have always followed, because unlike vegetables it is unpopular to persuade the disgusted to reconsider fat people. Isn't it arbitrary that some of the most "sophisticated" among us choose to learn to discern and qualify between different types of acerbic grape fermentations while the appreciation of physical forms that might just as readily displease the untrained beholder is so unthinkable as to merit universal derision?
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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viktor
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: johnm214]
#16045306 - 04/04/12 09:03 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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The only meaningful thing I know about free will is that those who believe they have it tend to be happier because they generally feel a sense of agency over their own lives and are conseqently less prone to a sense of helplessness which leads to depression.
For this reason, and this reason alone, I choose to believe in free will. I didn't always because I couldn't see any evidence for it (and I still can't). But the belief that my consciousness can actually make a difference to my quality of life instead of merely passively observing a runaway train makes me happier, so I do it.
Practicality 1 - Objectivity 0.
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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: viktor]
#16045563 - 04/04/12 10:08 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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One could be happy considering themselves a 'force of nature' with no free will. People generally like to see themselves as separate from nature, so happy people would site free will more often. An unhappy person will generally tend to see the world infringing on their experience and whine about how they can do nothing about it.
What subjectively makes free will better than being a force of nature?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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viktor
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Re: Free will- a meaningful question or not? [Re: Rahz]
#16045718 - 04/04/12 10:44 PM (12 years, 14 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
What subjectively makes free will better than being a force of nature?
Of course, I can only speak from my own personal experience here and your milage may vary. For me, the belief that I have free will serves to promote hope and optimism when times are tough. When I used to believe that I was a programmed automaton, if I found myself in a difficult situation I became heavily depressed as I thought that if I was conditioned to find myself in that sort of trouble then I would always find myself if that sort of trouble. Thoughts of suicide would inevitably follow.
When I changed my perspective to believe in free will, I developed a sense of agency that persuaded me that the shitness of any situation I was in was the results of choices I had made, and I could choose to think in ways that got me out of them. As a consequence, I observed a much higher incidence of getting out of shit situations instead of wallowing in them.
Since making the switch I have become much less bogged down in the horrors and meaninglessness of existence.
I am open to the possibility, though, that I could have achieved this happiness through other ways than believing in free will.
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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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