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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #16033755 - 04/02/12 01:33 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Jessica Swift said:
I think it is horrible, trust me, but the terminology is antithetical to the cause. It's a sensationalist title, much like the "war on drugs" or "war on terrorism," or anything else. It belittles the seriousness of the issue by trivializing like any other news artifact.




U cannot speak for other survivors. Please refer to this thread where another girl made the same mistake as u, which led to dozens of survivors calling her out on it. Including, the story of the poster Lior, who wrote about her experience actually being raped by an ultrasound: http://suicidegirls.com/boards/Current+Events/372816/page3/




Look, I'm sure you have some good points for why it's morally reprehensible (pre-established, I'd say), but until tanks start rolling down the street and bombs are flying, it isn't a war.

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Invisiblekeyohnah
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16033800 - 04/02/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

keyohnah said:
I am a strong advocate for women's right and against state mandated ultrasounds but to equate that to rape is extreme.





It is not extreme. Many news stations and politicians have called it state mandated rape

It fits the LEGAL DEFINITION of rape. Which is forced or coerced penetration





Many news stations and politicians have implied that abortionists are murderers too. Obviously if someone else says it's true it must be, right?

I've had an ultrasound done before and I must say that I didn't walk away as a rape victim -- I walked away as a woman who just had a medical test.

Are state mandated transvaginal ultrasounds wrong? Yes, without a doubt. Is it rape? No. Extremists on either side cause serious damage to the movement.


--------------------
"Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant, they too have their story."

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #16033809 - 04/02/12 01:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Whoops sorry, I misread and thought u were referring to the terminology of when I called vaginal ultrasounds rape. Which is a term many people, including the posters on that thread use to describe it.

So, what about the war on drugs? They only incarcerate us, they aren't bombing or shooting us. I think the war on women thing is a play on the war on everything george bush used.

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Enlil]
    #16033831 - 04/02/12 01:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Enlil, according to the fbi definition its forced penetration. Because a lot of people rape with foreign objects. This is the most common way mothers rape their children actually, is with a foreign object. Are u saying these children weren't raped simply because it doesnt involve a penis?

If u had actually read page 4 of the thread I posted, u would have already read that.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16033868 - 04/02/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Enlil, according to the fbi definition its forced penetration. Because a lot of people rape with foreign objects. This is the most common way mothers rape their children actually, is with a foreign object. Are u saying these children weren't raped simply because it doesnt involve a penis?

If u had actually read page 4 of the thread I posted, u would have already read that.



First, I don't go to internet links to get my legal knowledge...

Second, since you do, here's a quote and a link from the FBI website:
"Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded."
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Finally, the FBI doesn't write laws...nor does it determine the "legal definition" of a crime...

P.S.  YES...I am saying that a child who is penetrated by a foreign object is not raped...that is a sexual assault.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: keyohnah]
    #16033875 - 04/02/12 02:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

keyohnah said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

keyohnah said:
I am a strong advocate for women's right and against state mandated ultrasounds but to equate that to rape is extreme.





It is not extreme. Many news stations and politicians have called it state mandated rape

It fits the LEGAL DEFINITION of rape. Which is forced or coerced penetration





Many news stations and politicians have implied that abortionists are murderers too. Obviously if someone else says it's true it must be, right?

I've had an ultrasound done before and I must say that I didn't walk away as a rape victim -- I walked away as a woman who just had a medical test.

Are state mandated transvaginal ultrasounds wrong? Yes, without a doubt. Is it rape? No. Extremists on either side cause serious damage to the movement.




First of all, I've had vag ultrasounds too and didn't call it rape. The difference is, I CONSENTED.

Again, please actually read this thread, and pay attention to the story of w aoman who HAS had a forced ultrasound. She said it was just as traumatic as rape. In our cases, we consented. BIG difference

http://suicidegirls.com/boards/Current+Events/372816/page4/

Again, u cannot speak for other survivors. Just because YOUR experience was not rape, doesn't mean the same holds true for everybody else. We all perceive things differently, and the girl who had a forced ultrasound felt she was raped.

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Enlil]
    #16033892 - 04/02/12 02:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Enlil, according to the fbi definition its forced penetration. Because a lot of people rape with foreign objects. This is the most common way mothers rape their children actually, is with a foreign object. Are u saying these children weren't raped simply because it doesnt involve a penis?

If u had actually read page 4 of the thread I posted, u would have already read that.



First, I don't go to internet links to get my legal knowledge...

Second, since you do, here's a quote and a link from the FBI website:
"Forcible rape, as defined in the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, is the carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Attempts or assaults to commit rape by force or threat of force are also included; however, statutory rape (without force) and other sex offenses are excluded."
http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/forcible_rape.html

Finally, the FBI doesn't write laws...nor does it determine the "legal definition" of a crime...




Ur using an outdated version of the FBIs texts. :rolleyes: the current revised version has expanded to include men and many forms of penetration.

Go read the link I posted. There was a woman in there who did have a forced ultrasound, and to her it was very similar to being raped.

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16033905 - 04/02/12 02:06 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

As of 2012, this is what the fbi changed their rape definition to.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1

Somebody clearly hasn't updated the fbi site yet.

So, do u think that people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects are raped, yes or no?

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Invisiblekeyohnah
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16033917 - 04/02/12 02:08 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Enlil, according to the fbi definition its forced penetration. Because a lot of people rape with foreign objects. This is the most common way mothers rape their children actually, is with a foreign object. Are u saying these children weren't raped simply because it doesnt involve a penis?

If u had actually read page 4 of the thread I posted, u would have already read that.





When a doctor holds you down and forces an ultrasound wand in your vagina without your consent, I'll admit that you're no longer using sensational rhetoric to get your point across.

Obviously an ultrasound is pretty necessary to determine gestation age which you need in order to get the proper care. A transvaginal ultrasound is NOT necessary and an incredibly intrusive procedure. It's wrong to mandate one in order to get an abortion and the bill wasn't trying to be passed because of any medical necessity rather an awful attempt at trying to deter a woman from having an abortion but it is not rape. A woman may feel violated and I'm not trying to make it seem like less than it is but it just isn't the same thing as getting raped.

I understand being passionate about these topics but rhetoric is rarely helpful.


--------------------
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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16033954 - 04/02/12 02:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
As of 2012, this is what the fbi changed their rape definition to.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1

Somebody clearly hasn't updated the fbi site yet.

So, do u think that people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects are raped, yes or no?



Nope...they aren't raped...and they would not be convicted of rape in court...The FBI doesn't write the laws...

On top of that, having a vaginal ultrasound to get an abortion is not forced or coerced...it is a choice...No one is forced to get an abortion in this country..

Just because some random woman felt raped doesn't make it rape...I've felt raped before, but I haven't been...

The truth is that it is an invasive procedure which is clearly unnecessary and unduly burdensome on a person who is trying to get an abortion...but it isn't rape.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: keyohnah]
    #16033956 - 04/02/12 02:15 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

keyohnah said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Enlil, according to the fbi definition its forced penetration. Because a lot of people rape with foreign objects. This is the most common way mothers rape their children actually, is with a foreign object. Are u saying these children weren't raped simply because it doesnt involve a penis?

If u had actually read page 4 of the thread I posted, u would have already read that.





When a doctor holds you down and forces an ultrasound wand in your vagina without your consent, I'll admit that you're no longer using sensational rhetoric to get your point across.

Obviously an ultrasound is pretty necessary to determine gestation age which you need in order to get the proper care. A transvaginal ultrasound is NOT necessary and an incredibly intrusive procedure. It's wrong to mandate one in order to get an abortion and the bill wasn't trying to be passed because of any medical necessity rather an awful attempt at trying to deter a woman from having an abortion but it is not rape. A woman may feel violated and I'm not trying to make it seem like less than it is but it just isn't the same thing as getting raped.

I understand being passionate about these topics but rhetoric is rarely helpful.




It wasn't passed in virginia, but 8 other states passed vag ultrasounds including texas, alabama, etc.

Also the poster who had a forced ultrasound wasn't physically forced. She was coerced, tried to say no, and was told she had no choice. The tech was so forceful when he inserted the wand that it made her cry. Vag ultrasounds are fine and not rape if a woman consents to them, but if they are legally required, then it WILL lead to either verbally forcing or physically pinning down and forcing ultrasounds on women who try to decline getting them.

The diff between this and rape, is women who are forced to get ultrasounds will have nowhere to turn for help when they feel they have been violated.

Again, I compell u to please read the thread I posted, its very insightful, as it offers the opinions of many rape survivors and their views on the ultrasounds.

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Enlil]
    #16033978 - 04/02/12 02:19 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
As of 2012, this is what the fbi changed their rape definition to.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1

Somebody clearly hasn't updated the fbi site yet.

So, do u think that people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects are raped, yes or no?



Nope...they aren't raped...and they would not be convicted of rape in court...The FBI doesn't write the laws...

On top of that, having a vaginal ultrasound to get an abortion is not forced or coerced...it is a choice...No one is forced to get an abortion in this country..

Just because some random woman felt raped doesn't make it rape...I've felt raped before, but I haven't been...

The truth is that it is an invasive procedure which is clearly unnecessary and unduly burdensome on a person who is trying to get an abortion...but it isn't rape.




Obviously you are unaware of "personhood laws." 8 states have passed FORCED vaginal ultrasounds for women who want to get an abortion. THAT is rape. An ultrasound a woman consents to, like what I got, is not rape.

Also most rape never even makes it to trial because of lack of evidence and no witnesses, it doesn't mean the rape didn't happen or the person is innocent

U never answered my question. Are people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects raped or not?

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InvisibleshLong
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin *DELETED* [Re: Crystal G] * 3
    #16033988 - 04/02/12 02:21 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by shLong

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: shLong]
    #16034005 - 04/02/12 02:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

fuckin awesome


burn baby burn


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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16034007 - 04/02/12 02:23 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
As of 2012, this is what the fbi changed their rape definition to.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1

Somebody clearly hasn't updated the fbi site yet.

So, do u think that people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects are raped, yes or no?



Nope...they aren't raped...and they would not be convicted of rape in court...The FBI doesn't write the laws...

On top of that, having a vaginal ultrasound to get an abortion is not forced or coerced...it is a choice...No one is forced to get an abortion in this country..

Just because some random woman felt raped doesn't make it rape...I've felt raped before, but I haven't been...

The truth is that it is an invasive procedure which is clearly unnecessary and unduly burdensome on a person who is trying to get an abortion...but it isn't rape.




Obviously you are unaware of "personhood laws." 8 states have passed FORCED vaginal ultrasounds for women who want to get an abortion. THAT is rape. An ultrasound a woman consents to, like what I got, is not rape.

Also most rape never even makes it to trial because of lack of evidence and no witnesses, it doesn't mean the rape didn't happen or the person is innocent

U never answered my question. Are people who are forcibly penetrated with foreign objects raped or not?



For the third time, NO...that isn't rape...what part of that don't you understand?  Penetration with a foreign object isn't rape...I'm not going to answer this a fourth time...

And you miss the point..If you want the abortion, you must CONSENT to a intravaginal ultrasound...that is not the same as being forced or coerced...

You can always CHOOSE not to have an abortion...

That is ANOTHER reason why it isn't rape...or even sexual assault...


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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: shLong]
    #16034015 - 04/02/12 02:24 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

shLong said:
/hide retarded off topic rape thread




These stories attract debates just as quick as the racist and religious ones.

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Enlil]
    #16034324 - 04/02/12 03:26 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
For the third time, NO...that isn't rape...what part of that don't you understand?  Penetration with a foreign object isn't rape...I'm not going to answer this a fourth time...

And you miss the point..If you want the abortion, you must CONSENT to a intravaginal ultrasound...that is not the same as being forced or coerced...

You can always CHOOSE not to have an abortion...

That is ANOTHER reason why it isn't rape...or even sexual assault...




If forced or coerced penetration with a foreign object isn't rape, then what is it? Sexual molestation? Sexual assault?

According to you, only a man would be able to physically rape a woman. A woman is physically unable to rape another woman or child, because she is literally unable to have sex with another woman or little girl. Am I reading that right? Women can't be rapists then, is what you're saying.

I find it highly problematic that you don't even consider forced vaginal ultrasounds to be a violation of the female sex organ. The fact that you're even defending it is utterly deplorable. "Yea, just don't have the abortion." Yea, THAT'S a good solution. :rolleyes: Considering a lot of women don't have much other choice. Simply because a woman is forced to sign a paper saying she consented doesn't mean that she didn't do it out of force, obligation, or coercion. I can easily be forced or manipulated into signing something for a procedure I never wanted. Which is what the law is going to legally allow.

You don't even consider this woman's story below to be a violation of her sex organs?!?!??!!?

Quote:

In light of some people dismissing these ultrasounds as not really being rape I thought I'd share my experience. I'm popping it under a spoiler because it's potentially triggering.

When I was 17 I had a pregnancy scare so I did what I thought was best and went to a family planning clinic for a test and to discuss my options. The doctor I saw was wonderful, he talked me through everything, handed me a test and led me to the bathroom to take it. When I came out of the ladies room and he checked the results the weren't clear so he decided that I should have an ultrasound.

The ultrasound technician was a woman who I immediately felt uncomfortable with. She had a really rough and abrupt manner but I trusted her because I thought that the clinic would employ people who could be trusted. I had a 'jelly on the belly' scan which was again inconclusive. The doctor had told me, and the technician, that if there were any question about the scan result that I was to have a blood test and that there would be no need for further ultrsounds. The technician didn't do that, she decided to do a transvaginal ultrasound before sending me for blood work.

I said no. I said that the doctor had told me, and her, that I should have blood work done not a second scan. She told me I was going to have it done or I wouldn't be getting the blood work. I was a kid, I was scared that I was pregnant and I felt I had no choice so I got back up on the table and had the scan. Not once did I consent, I was told I had no choice and I was too scared to argue with this person. She wasn't gentle, it hurt and I cried, but I kept quiet because I was scared.

I was subjected to a medically unnecessary ultrasound, I was raped by someone with a medical device. It wouldn't have mattered if she was gentle or if she were kind, it was still rape. If I were pregnant and had to have the same ultrasound I wouldn't have felt any less violated. Rape is rape, it doesn't matter if it involves a penis, fingers or an ultrasound wand, it doesn't matter if it's a stranger in the street, your boyfriend or a doctor/technician inserting a probe into your vagina. If you don't consent, or feel you have no choice other than to consent, it is rape.




You have NO RIGHT to go and tell other people that their experience of being FORCIBLY PENETRATED wasn't rape. I find it comical that you as a man, exhibiting male privilege, who probably has never even been raped or sexually assaulted, is going around telling other victims and survivors what rape is, and asserting that what THEY experienced wasn't rape. You're no different than all those other idiot male politicians who are going around trying to force women what to do with their bodies.

This is the NEW, legal FBI definition of rape: "The new provision will define rape as any kind of penetration of another person, regardless of gender, without the victim's consent. It also includes a broad range of rapes involving both males and females in which attackers use objects to penetrate their victims."

The definition YOU were using is an extremely old and archaic definition of rape, where only men raping women were considered rape. Even men anally raping other men wasn't counted as "rape" according to the old definition you used.

And if you're going to try and claim that forced penetration isn't rape, you better damn well prove it with some sources to back up your claims.




Jessica Swift, I am really sorry for doing this to your thread, but I couldn't refrain from posting against some of these people making these extremely offensive comments. I am positive they don't even realize the sheer offensive nature of the posts they are making.

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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16034346 - 04/02/12 03:28 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

:popcorn:


--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun.

A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core.

If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next.

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And the wind blows it back again."
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16034386 - 04/02/12 03:37 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
If forced or coerced penetration with a foreign object isn't rape, then what is it? Sexual molestation? Sexual assault?


Depends on state law, but yes...sexual assault, generally
Quote:



According to you, only a man would be able to physically rape a woman. A woman is physically unable to rape another woman or child, because she is literally unable to have sex with another woman or little girl. Am I reading that right? Women can't be rapists then, is what you're saying.



I never said anything of the sort...I gave you the FBI definition from their website...I also said that THE FBI DOESN'T WRITE THE LAW.  Women can rape men...yes...they cannot rape women...
Quote:


I find it highly problematic that you don't even consider forced vaginal ultrasounds to be a violation of the female sex organ. The fact that you're even defending it is utterly deplorable. "Yea, just don't have the abortion." Yea, THAT'S a good solution. :rolleyes: Considering a lot of women don't have much other choice. Simply because a woman is forced to sign a paper saying she consented doesn't mean that she didn't do it out of force, obligation, or coercion. I can easily be forced or manipulated into signing something for a procedure I never wanted. Which is what the law is going to legally allow.



I never defended it in the least...I said it wasn't rape...I also said that requiring it as a condition for abortion wasn't forced or coerced...I ALSO SAID that I believed it was unconstitutional to require it as a condition of an abortion...you must have missed that part while you were raging.

You can get as emotional as you want about this, but it won't change the facts.


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Offlinepropensity
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Re: Planned Parenthood Firebombed in Wisconsin [Re: Crystal G]
    #16034393 - 04/02/12 03:39 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

So everyone just gets to define rape however they want even when their "rape" wasn't even in a remotely sexual situation?

Yeah ok.


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