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OfflineNoxVitae
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Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake
    #15317931 - 11/03/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, I read over the information available on this site, but still did not reach a good conclusion regarding the mystery of Calea Zacatechichi.

I purchased a Calea plant last year from a very legit vendor, but I only found out later that it is the "fake" Calea.  (Peppery/ grapefruit scent, not really bitter, angular leaves). The original plant I gave to a friend, but a cutting I am growing for myself has taken off well, and I am fairly certain I can start harvesting soon. When I do, I plan to document whatever results I may or may not get from the plant. My question to anyone interested is, what kind of Calea do you have/ have you tried, and what effects did you get? I ate a leaf from mine and noticed a strange increase in appetite, slight calming, and it seemed to work as a mild laxative.

I am positive these were not placebo effects, and in any case they were extremely weak. Let it be noted that I have tried bitter Calea before with limited success. So, anyone grow and use fake Calea?


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OfflineDr.Trich
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15319842 - 11/03/11 10:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

There are supposed non bitter varieties, according to some shroomery vendor(s). I bought one of these, and will also start harvesting soon, however I haven't tried this one yet. Ill let everyone know what's up.

if you are going to use fresh leaves, I've read that for the most part, start with a quid of about 15 or so full sized leaves, and leave it in there for like 30 mins. or smoke about two cigarettes worth, or until you feel a slight buzz at least, and do this just before bed. I'm currently saving leaves for that, then ill determine my quid size. I had a friend who wanted to try, so I let her have 5-10 medium leaves. she didn't like the flavor and only kept it in 15 mins. but she did report many more dreams that night, but not quite the lucidity one would expect.

I've also read just chewing on a stem will do the trick, but haven't verified, my cutting just got big enough to take cuttings, then I will have a few to harvest from to reduce stress.

just my 2¢ based on what I've read and know.


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: Dr.Trich]
    #15320399 - 11/04/11 12:44 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

We call the calea common to cultivation the non-bitter strain.  We got the idea based on a picture from Erowid. It is actually the main picture they show on the calea page 

http://www.erowid.org/plants/show_image.php?i=calea_zacatechichi/calea_zacatechichi__i2004e0053_disp.jpg

People debate the categorization of the plant as different species or subspecies, but the reality is that it has already been widely accepted as Calea Zacatechichi going back close to a decade.  But it should at least be distinguished as the non-bitter variety so people know what plant you're actually talking about.  If there's a notable distinction in characteristics then the name should reflect it. 

In terms of it's dreaming aid value, it seems to be similar to that of the bitter strain. In our early days, that was all we had, and we had a repeat customer actually complain when we eventually got the bitter strain. 

Whether it's a different species, subspecies strain etc., related plants often have similar alkaloid profiles. Examples would be heimia salicifolia and heimia myrtifolia or cola nitida and cola acuminata or leonotis nepetifolia and leonotis leonurus. It would seem hard for it to have gotten this far under the name calea zacatechichi at all if it did not have any value.  But what makes it somewhat debatable at all is that dreaming aids don't particularly have a definite effect for all. That goes for the non-bitter strain as much as the bitter strain or others like silene capensis, entada rheedii or mugwort.  The low end of the effect often include increased dream activity or dream recall.  But it seems that true lucidity often has to come as the result of with regular use and practice.  I suppose that's why the term aid is used instead of inducer.


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OfflineRourkeAnderson
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15322577 - 11/04/11 03:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for chiming in WSS, do you guys carry the bitter strain as live plants? I'd love to have a bitter and non bitter collection :rockon:


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: RourkeAnderson]
    #15324368 - 11/04/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm having a problem with this as well.
What I've been able to find out through cursory research on the internet indicates that Calea ternifolia  is synonymous with zacatechichi. So how can any other variety be called zacatechichi ?.
Can't....

This is the plant that I believe to be calea ternifolia [aka] zacatechichi.



And this is the plant that I bought and was called Calea zacatechichi, the non-bitter variety ... wtf.
Calling it the non-bitter variety still doesn't tell me what plant I have growing on my window sill, and mine is very different looking from the one in the first picture.


I'll continue growing the plant that I have, it's pretty cool and it may have the same affect as calea ternifolia, and I realize that there can be many variety's that have the same composition but it would still be nice to have a clear understanding and to say “Yes” this plant I'm growing is Calea zacatechichi.

Another source: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/splist.pl?1875I


Edited by manycrows (11/05/11 05:29 AM)


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OfflineRourkeAnderson
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: manycrows]
    #15324927 - 11/05/11 12:04 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I think the triangular leafed ones are considered by most to be the non-bitter, and the first you linked as the bitter.

I know mine looks identical to yours and it's very pleasant tasting. Also smells like tomatoes and pepper when I rub the leaves.


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: RourkeAnderson]
    #15341195 - 11/08/11 06:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Hey, thanks for all the replies, it has definitely helped. I recently ingested just a few leaves (I will try a large quid later) and I had a pretty neat dream from that, so I suspect it is just fine. And WSS, the information you provided was very helpful. Also, I am a repeat customer and love the amazing selection.

Anywho, I will update when I have tried a full quid.


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15341523 - 11/08/11 07:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No prob, and thanks for the compliment. 

Rourke, we only have the non-bitter plants (and now seed).  We've been looking for the bitter one, but it seems to be quite rare since the plant is reproduced by cuttings. It would seem the only way to get the bitter strain would be to go from seed.  Seeds are stubborn to germinate, and any of our attempt to germinate bitter strain seeds have failed.  But I've been looking to collect both as well. 

Manycrows, you asked how two plants could be calea zacatechichi. I am not exactly sure if both are scientifically classified as zacatechichi, but it is possible. Often there are different forms or subspecies of a particular species that have pretty distinct differences.  Growing conditions can also affect things like leaf shape and thickness to some degree so that plants may look like another species. 

The reality is that taxonomy is a man-made thing, and scientists frequently argue over the identity of species. This is why you often see plant changing categories or having synonyms.  One scientist may consider a particular plant a part of one genus, and another will consider it part of the other. 

Now mistakes do happen when we take plants from indigenous populations.  For them, classification is not an exact science, and so you may have several related plants or several plant with similar properties that go by a common name.  When these plants are collected from those areas, the idea of species is lost in translation, and you can end up with one of any related plants that eventually comes into circulation here in the U.S. (or other countries) under the name it was assumed to be by the collector. 

In the current case, we're using the common name non-bitter calea to set it apart from the bitter plants.  The original collector's classification of zacatechichi is debatable. But as long as a large enough population is calling it the non-bitter strain, that is a valid common name. That's because a common name is exactly that...something that is commonly used. 

I know people still want the answer to the question over its scientific identity, but we'd need an entirely new pool of information to draw from other than what is on the internet. We've all been sharing the same genetics and the same information.  Eventually, the top resources, like Erowid, begin showing the non-bitter strain in identification photos.  This classification has been around since calea itself has been on the  internet, so anyone who's gotten their information via the internet is likely to have the same knowledge base. If you're going to try to solve this mystery, it would probably be best to start looking at information published before 2000.  That combined with a knowledge of the taxonomy of the calea genus might help shed more light.


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Offlinemanycrows
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15346484 - 11/09/11 07:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I guess we will just have to refer to all calea zacatechichi as the bitter or non-bitter variety, too bad though. It would be nice to know the actual botanical name of the plants we're growing. I've seen listed as many as five variations.

Here's another couple pictures I came across,  Just in case anyone is interested.



here's a good reference page: http://botany.si.edu/types/jsTaxa/showNames.cfm?myfam=Asteraceae


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: manycrows]
    #15349361 - 11/10/11 11:02 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Alrighty, I tried a quid of my Calea. Here is what followed

Method: 15 mature Calea leaves were harvested, and rinsed several times with cold water. I then brushed my teeth and lightly scraped the lining of my mouth. I then used some mouthwash ( this is important; mouthwash and scraping away the dead skin cells increases the absorption of chemicals through the oral mucosa.) After all that, I stuck all the leaves in my mouth and proceeded to slowly chew them, swishing as much saliva as I could with the leaf juices. I would leave the quid in my cheeks or under my tongue for several minutes at a time. 15 minutes after starting, I noticed a pretty powerful calm spreading over me. I felt that Calea would be good to use during a headache, as it seems to have mild analgesic properties.

After 45 minutes, I decided to get to sleep. I kept the quid in my mouth, sucking out the juices occasionally. By this point, I felt really relaxed, but actually falling asleep was difficult. I finally did though, and I had two really weird, really fun dreams. Not lucid, but significant because I never remember my dreams. The most I could ever remember from sleeping is a void. These dreams though were very entertaining. And this was only my third attempt at using calea.(I used the bitter variety twice before). I suspect that calea is like divinorum and weed, it takes a few uses before the full effects are really felt. I will try this again soon, but I can definitely say that non-bitter calea works very well, and the taste is vastly superior to bitter calea. My homegrown calea tasted mildly like pine needles and grapefruit. This would make an excellent cup of herbal tea.

Oh, an odd effect I felt upon waking is that I was still being drawn back to sleep. This is strange, because I slept for nine hours with one interruption around 3:00am. I didn't feel tired, or like I needed to sleep, I actually felt very alert and rejuvenated, but something was still drawing me back into dreamland. Once I made up my mind that I did not want to sleep anymore, the feeling relented. I don't believe in spirits or mystical things like that, so I don't think the "spirit of calea" was calling me back, but the effect was very bizarre.


Final thoughts: Calea quid method works exceptionally well, not just for dreams, but also for sleep quality and relaxation.


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15363439 - 11/13/11 05:03 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Nice report.


I just wanted to add this pic of these calea leaves. They look similar to what you see on the bitter calea, but they are from non-bitter plants.  The same plants also have the more triangular leaves on them. So you have to be careful in just using the leaf shape as a distinguishing factor.  The bitter calea flowers are also yellow as you can see in the photo of the dried plants. 



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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15364272 - 11/13/11 11:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Thank you kindly, that was my first report. And thanks for adding the additional information. Calea is a very strange plant, but it is very fun to grow.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15369909 - 11/14/11 04:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I don't know much about the plant but this is what mine looks like


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: littlegreenfrog]
    #15371409 - 11/14/11 09:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The purple looks like the plant is being sunburned. This is an indicator for most plants, including cacti. If you have them too close to the light this will happen. Outdoors you can get it too, especially if the plant is not being watered well in strong sun.

It's hard to tell from the glare in your pic but some of that mottled pattern looks like it could be disease. But the leaves at the bottom of the picture mostly just look like sunburn.  Is any of that white part sort of translucent, or is that all just glare? 

Nutrient deficiency is not a huge issue with calea. It can survive with very little nutes. I once kept a cutting in nothing but perlite for a year. 

For now, move your plant back from the light.  The leaves that are already purple will not turn green. But pay attention to the new growth.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15374290 - 11/15/11 01:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

interesting thanks for the info I have it under an T5 hood with 2 red and 2 blue based grow bulbs. I took the photo with my Iphone so its not translucent probably just some glare. Thanks for the info I'm growing some kratom as well, do you know anything about growing it? Once it grows some more Ill post some pic of it I went a little crazy chewing leaves so need to let it grow more. With the calea it could be just burns I was a dumb ass one day and sprayed it with some water during mid light cycle and am pretty sure that burnt that and my kratom plant. Thanks for all the info though.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: littlegreenfrog]
    #15374400 - 11/15/11 01:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah even T5's can burn calea.  Set it back and keep it well-watered. It's a durable plant with quick growth, so it'll recover. As for kratom, there's a guide in my journal.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15374646 - 11/15/11 02:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

thanks again just read it and I think I know whats wrong


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OfflineNoxVitae
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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: littlegreenfrog]
    #15404965 - 11/21/11 08:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

purple leaves are a sign of burned calea? I have mine growing outdoors in full sun, and all the new growth is purplish red at first, but mature leaves are a vibrant green.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15405004 - 11/21/11 08:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah. That's normal outdoors. The new growth is a little more tender, so it's probably more sensitive. A little purple is fine and totally normal with outdoor calea. But when the whole plant is turning red, you should tone it down on the light.


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Re: Calea Zacatechichi: Real vs. Fake [Re: NoxVitae]
    #15987914 - 03/23/12 10:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I recently posted a comparative analysis of bitter Calea Zacatechichi, "non-bitter variety", and Bidens Alba (http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15987884).

It seems unlikely that the "non-bitter variety" is a Calea. Instead, it is probably a subspecies of Bidens Alba, an edible weed.


Edited by tr0798 (03/23/12 10:15 PM)


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