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Offlineresonant111
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time dilation and the speed of light * 1
    #15976558 - 03/21/12 01:51 PM (12 years, 28 days ago)

a common side effect of dosing shrooms or other psychedelics is a profound sense of time dilation. i've had experiences where time itself seems to freeze and everything around me is experienced as pure vibration. (these timeless states are also possible in deep meditation from my experience)

Perhaps the experience of time freezing is the direct understanding of the universe as a unified vibration perpetually traveling at the speed of light? Could this "timeless" dimension be heaven, nirvana, or eternal bliss itself?

this idea even has a scientific foundation...in special relativity, "The combined speed of any object’s motion through space and its motion though time is always precisely equal to the speed of light." In other words, EVERYTHING is already moving at the speed of light.

If everything is already moving at the speed of light, it seems like all we have to do is RECOGNIZE this to transcend any egoic space-time limitations. In other words, we can have heaven on earth right here, right now through awareness alone...  :shocked:


--------------------

Edited by resonant111 (03/22/12 12:35 AM)

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: resonant111]
    #15979486 - 03/22/12 02:07 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Mushrooms have this wonderful ability to shut down the parts of brain that make the illusion of the world seem real. Time does not exist as such, it's only a concept. There is still time one level deeper, but it's vastly different than what we call time. You get direct experience of it as consciousness that you are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginary_time


It is self evident from this picture what the mystics are talking about - the 'here and now'. It's all there is.

There's no time for us
There's no place for us
What is this thing that builds our dreams yet slips away
from us

There's no chance for us
It's all decided for us
This world has only one sweet moment set aside for us

-Brian May

Edited by cbub (03/22/12 02:15 AM)

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15979570 - 03/22/12 02:33 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

"Did you," so he asked him at one time, "did you too learn that secret from the river: that there is no time?" Vasudeva's face was filled with a bright smile.
"Yes, Siddhartha," he spoke. "It is this what you mean, isn't it: that the river is everywhere at once, at the source and at the mouth, at the waterfall, at the ferry, at the rapids, in the sea, in the mountains, everywhere at once, and that there is only the present time for it, not the shadow of the past, not the shadow of the future?"




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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Registered: 05/25/11
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15979571 - 03/22/12 02:33 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

light doesnt always go the speed of light from what i hear


also, consider that photons dont seem to distinguish between past and future


anyway i like the original question and everything. hmmm


--------------------
How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: venetianblinds]
    #15979583 - 03/22/12 02:39 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

In proposing his theory Einstein postulated that the speed of light was a universal constant. However fast you may be traveling, you will always measure the speed of light relative to you to be the same—186,000 miles per second. You can never catch up with light. Even if you were traveling at 185,990 miles per second, light would still pass you by at 186,000 miles per second.
Why should this be so? It seems totally counter-intuitive that the speed of light never varies. But this perplexing behavior takes on a rather different character when we distinguish our image of reality from the underlying reality. Space and time, and hence speed, are aspects of the phenomenal world; they have no meaning, it turns out, for light itself.
According to the equations of Special Relativity, as an observer's speed increases, time slows down, and length (in the direction of motion) contracts. At the speed of light, time has slowed to a standstill and length contracted to zero. Although no object with mass can ever attain the speed of light (the equations predict that it would then have an infinite mass), light itself does (by definition) travel at the speed of light. From light's point of view—and this after all must be the most appropriate perspective from which to consider the nature of light, not our matter-bound mode of experience—it travels no distance and takes no time to do so.
This reflects a unique property of light. In the spacetime continuum, the interval between the two ends of a light ray is always zero. How can we interpret this? We probably should not even try to interpret it. Any attempt to do so would make the mistake of applying concepts derived from our image of reality to the underlying reality. All we need to recognize is that, from light's perspective, this zero interval manifests as zero space and a corresponding amount of zero time.
However, when we in the world of sub-light speeds perceive light, we see a different manifestation of the zero interval. We observe a finite amount of space along with an "equal" amount of time. In our world, the light does travel through space and time. Since the total interval must be zero, the distance covered must exactly balance the time taken—that is, we must always observe 186,000 miles of space for every second of time. This we interpret as the speed of light. But this "speed" is not an intrinsic property of light itself; traveling no distance in no time, light has no need of speed. What we interpret as the speed of light is actually the ratio in which space and time manifest in our perception of reality. It is this ratio that is constant. And this is why all our measurements of the apparent speed of light are constant.



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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15979606 - 03/22/12 02:47 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

here is what i was thinking of. im not sure what it means really, so im not going to argue anything. just showing i didnt pull that out of my ass earlier

In quantum field theory the Heisenberg uncertainty relations indicate that photons can travel at any speed for short periods. In the Feynman diagram interpretation of the theory, these are known as "virtual photons", and are distinguished by propagating off the mass shell. These photons may have any velocity, including velocities greater than the speed of light. To quote Richard Feynman "...there is also an amplitude for light to go faster (or slower) than the conventional speed of light. You found out in the last lecture that light doesn't go only in straight lines; now, you find out that it doesn't go only at the speed of light! It may surprise you that there is an amplitude for a photon to go at speeds faster or slower than the conventional speed, c."[4] These virtual photons, however, do not violate causality or special relativity, as they are not directly observable and information cannot be transmitted acausally in the theory. Feynman diagrams and virtual photons are usually interpreted not as a physical picture of what is actually taking place, but rather as a convenient calculation tool (which, in some cases, happen to involve faster-than-light velocity vectors).


--------------------
How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: venetianblinds]
    #15979651 - 03/22/12 03:07 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

It is sometimes said that all photons are virtual photons.This is because the world-lines of photons always resemble the dotted line in the above Feynman diagram: The photon was emitted somewhere (say, a distant star), and then is absorbed somewhere else (say a photoreceptor cell in the eyeball). Furthermore, in a vacuum, a photon experiences no passage of (proper) time between emission and absorption. This statement illustrates the difficulty of trying to distinguish between "real" and "virtual" particles, because, in mathematical terms, they are the same objects and it is only our definition of "reality" that is weak here. In practice, a clear distinction can be made: real photons are detected as individual particles in particle detectors, whereas virtual photons are not directly detected; only their average or side-effects may be noticed, in the form of forces or (in modern language) interactions between particles.

If you ask me, this is exactly the same phenomena as double slit experiment. Rules of the universe only get invoked when there's an observer... and the falling tree doesn't make a sound if there's nobody there to hear it. Same thing :smile:

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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15979699 - 03/22/12 03:24 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

there might not be anything around to hear it, but surely the molecules in the air do the soundwave dance anyway?


--------------------
How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way,
Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: venetianblinds]
    #15979727 - 03/22/12 03:37 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

You see that's the point. If there is nobody there the event never happened. There are no molecules there, just a state of potential in the fabric of the universe. Almost exactly like in a computer game.. say Skyrim. When you are in Daragonsreach, Solitude doesn't exist. It is only when you go there, Solitude gets drawn out on the screen. This is the matrix.

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub] * 1
    #15980575 - 03/22/12 10:08 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

In other words, we can have heaven on earth right here, right now through awareness alone...



Quote:

Thomas 113 - His disciples said to him, "When will the Kingdom come?", Jesus answered and said, "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look here!' or 'Look there!'. Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the Earth, and people don't see it!"



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Invisiblevenetianblinds
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15983590 - 03/22/12 09:22 PM (12 years, 27 days ago)

i know damn well that when i go into the woods and see a fallen tree that it made a sound.

several sounds!

it may have even caused animals to scatter and change their directions and maybe one even flies over me quite a ways away and shits on my head. thats the dance i refer to. i might conclude later aha! it was all these fallen trees that caused that bird uproar earlier...

and dont even tell me there is such a thing as a forest with no creatures to witness sounds....







EDIT  idont believe any of what i said. anything i say about what there is, is not what there is. its just how it seems to me.

seems to me that a tree falling with no one to observe is not nothing. i feel like the the entire event of the tree falling, including the sound, flow with everything else.



i just reached over into my arsenal and got the nag hammadi off the shelf intending to find something brilliant in the gospel of thomas, but opened straight to thomas the contender, by mathais apparantly. since im in the mystical section, i went with it. this thread is really about time and space and light, heres part of a conversation during a walk somewhere, as described by the writer


judas thomas said, i say to you lord, that those who speak about things that are invisible and difficult to explain are like those who shoot their arrows at a target at night. To be sure, they shoot their arrows as anyone would-since they shoot at the target-but it is not visible. Yet when light comes forth and hides the drakness, then the work of each will appear. and you are our enlightener, o lord.


jesus answered, it is in light that light exists

Edited by venetianblinds (03/22/12 11:39 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15984430 - 03/23/12 02:43 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

resonant111 said:
a common side effect of dosing shrooms or other psychedelics is a profound sense of time dilation. i've had experiences where time itself seems to freeze and everything around me is experienced as pure vibration. (these timeless states are also possible in deep meditation from my experience)




How is it timeless if there is vibration?  This seems contradictory.  Whatever the oscillating quantity is, how is it defined if not by its cyclical change per time?  That seems the very definition of the term: implying that if you observe vibration you are not observing timelessness.
Quote:


Perhaps the experience of time freezing is the direct understanding of the universe as a unified vibration perpetually traveling at the speed of light? Could this "timeless" dimension be heaven, nirvana, or eternal bliss itself?




What does it mean for the universe to be a "unified vibration"?  That seems pretty vague.  If its unified, then what exactly is moving at the speed of light?  Given that the (negative) relative velocity of bodies in the universe is proportional to the distance from us, does this not suggest that the entire univese is not moving a constant speed?

Quote:


this idea even has a scientific foundation...in special relativity, "The combined speed of any object’s motion through space and its motion though time is always precisely equal to the speed of light." In other words, EVERYTHING is already moving at the speed of light.






How does that suggest this conclusion?


Quote:

cbub said:


If you ask me, this is exactly the same phenomena as double slit experiment. Rules of the universe only get invoked when there's an observer...




Naw, things work the same way whether someone is there to notice or not.  The "observation" or "observer" often mentioned in QM subjects refers to a measurement, not the presence of a being or a conciousness or anything like that.  It works the same way whether someone looks at the detectors or not.

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: johnm214]
    #15984444 - 03/23/12 02:52 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

Naw, things work the same way whether someone is there to notice or not.  The "observation" or "observer" often mentioned in QM subjects refers to a measurement, not the presence of a being or a conciousness or anything like that.  It works the same way whether someone looks at the detectors or not.




That's based on assumption that consciousness is a property of animate beings. We don't know that. It's actually suggested from various sources that consciousness is the time space itself. If it works the same way when you look at detectors or not is pure faith :-)

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15984518 - 03/23/12 03:44 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

It's evident, that you can see the effect of things that are going on, but according to the nature laws they shouldn't. I'm talking about the photon distribution pattern with double slit experiment and effects of the virtual photons in particle accelerators. It's plain obvious, that when you measure the particles, nature starts behaving differently. In a way where you can only measure the particles that are playing by the laws of nature, yet we get an observation of an effect of them behaving differently when the measurement is not made. What does that tell us? Obviously the act of measuring is exactly what reality adjusts itself to. How can that be? This is where another fascinating thing happens. People can't process this fact and shrug it off.

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: cbub]
    #15984627 - 03/23/12 05:26 AM (12 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

cbub said:


That's based on assumption that consciousness is a property of animate beings. We don't know that. It's actually suggested from various sources that consciousness is the time space itself.




Ok, sure.  That seems like a strange definition, but I don't see any conflict with the experiments if you define it like that.

Quote:

If it works the same way when you look at detectors or not is pure faith :-)




Naw, we can use, for example, film that records the particle strikes and look at it months after the experiment was run.  It always looks as you'd expect it to given QM.  Same with the slit detector that tells whether a particle passed through a given slit- it messes up the interference patters even if its not hooked up to a display for someone to read the results.

The point is that the measurement is what matters (what destroys the interference pattern in the double slit case) and this happens without need of someone present and doing the measurement.  You get solipsistic pretty fast if you try to argue that a conscious person needs to be aware of the results, and then you wander into pretty impractical interpretations.

Quote:

cbub said:
It's evident, that you can see the effect of things that are going on, but according to the nature laws they shouldn't. I'm talking about the photon distribution pattern with double slit experiment and effects of the virtual photons in particle accelerators. It's plain obvious, that when you measure the particles, nature starts behaving differently. [/quote[

Yes, but it doesn't require a person to be performing the measurement, i.e. looking at the pattern or looking at some device which measures which slit the particle went through.  The pattern is as expected by QM with or without it.  It is simply that there's no way to measure the state of a system without changing it, and so any measurement will change the system (along with other interactions without any 'measurement' in the traditional sense of the word).

Quote:

In a way where you can only measure the particles that are playing by the laws of nature, yet we get an observation of an effect of them behaving differently when the measurement is not made. What does that tell us? Obviously the act of measuring is exactly what reality adjusts itself to. How can that be? This is where another fascinating thing happens. People can't process this fact and shrug it off.




It's fairly well understood  from the standpoint of being able to predict the behavior of systems like the double slit experiment.  Its just the mechanism and interpretation which are troubling, but then science can never determine the way things really are in QM or anything else- it can only observe the efficient cause of phenomena and use that to describe systems and make predictions.

Of the classes of interactions that disturb a system, an intentional measurement is just one of them (say, bouncing a particle off another to determine its position and momentum- this has the same effect whether its done intentionally or is a random interaction not a part of any measurement).

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Offlinecbub
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Re: time dilation and the speed of light [Re: johnm214]
    #15985038 - 03/23/12 09:07 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I have to agree with most of what you said. It's fact.
Our problem would be the disagreement on what an observer is.

It's another fact that all matter is simply just curvature of spacetime. There is no boundary between matter and vacuum.
It's not like the universe is a jar and we're pickled peppers inside it. We ARE the jar. So you cannot simply say 'a person = observer'.
The measurement itself is an observer and it clearly has an active effect.

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