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schnauzer
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trayvon martin shooting
#15972563 - 03/20/12 04:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
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memes
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 2
#15972663 - 03/20/12 04:49 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't think the law is the problem. I think it's rediculous to have the legal requirement to first retreat as far as you possibly can before you can confront an intruder with lethal force in your own home.
Sure, shit like this happens - but i don't think it's the law that caused this event.
P.S. George Zimmerman is hispanic, per his father
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 1
#15972711 - 03/20/12 05:02 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
schnauzer said: longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
You have some inside information to share? You were there?
Pray tell.
As for the "stand your ground" law, it's a good one and I'm pleased to see so many states passing them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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schnauzer
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By all accounts, Zimmerman was driving around the neighborhood as Martin was either walking or running back home from the 7-11. At some point Zimmerman left the vehicle to confront Martin. One of them initiated physical contact. This is where the facts will vary, but I don't think it matters who started the fight because when you follow someone in a car, get out of your car, and question them, these are all actions leading up to some type of desired confrontation. It was reasonable for 17 yo kid to feel threatened under these circumstances. This law isn't meant to encourage confrontations, it is supposed to enable law abiding citizens to go about their business with some degree of peace of mind as to their personal safety. The law in most states is that if someone enters your home, and you reasonably believe they are there to do harm, you can use deadly force, the "castle doctrine". The "stand your ground" law expands your ability to use defensive deadly force to any location, not just your home. This Trayvon Martin case seems no different than a bar fight. George Zimmerman could go to a bar, pick a fight with someone who could clearly kick his ass, and once he lays into him, Zimmerman can pull out his concealed weapon, and shoot his ass dead. Totally legal in FL to do that if you apply the logic the police seemingly are using in the present case, regardless of who sought out the confrontation. Also, if Zimmerman didn't like people of a certain race, he could start fights with people of that race, and if he was getting his ass kicked, he could pull out a gun and shoot their ass dead. Its only illegal if he targets a protected class--it becomes a hate crime because his intent was to ultimately kill a person of that race. My opinion is that Martin was not targeted because he was black, but because he was not a regular member of the community--he was just visiting his father for the weekend or something. I could be wrong--maybe Zimmerman is a racist. If the law isn't the problem, how does FL prevent events like this one from happening in the future? Or is it acceptable for a certain number of children to be gunned down by people who follow them home from the buss stop or convenience store?
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saintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15975278 - 03/21/12 07:24 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I'm all for 2nd amendment rights and I'm all for 'stand your ground' laws. But I can't think of any reasonable argument for not considering this murder.
Zimmerman was even told by dispatchers not to pursue Martin. He had no legal reason nor authority to do so. Under the circumstances it seems far more likely that Martin was the one defending himself. The only eyewitness testimony says that a man with a white shirt was on top of someone else. Zimmerman was wearing a white shirt. And if you're on top of someone, and you're carrying a firearm -- it ain't self-defense. By voluntarily entering a close-quarters situation, you effectively eliminate any self-defensive advantage a gun provides. I don't normally like the race card. But I genuinely don't believe if Martin was a white adult we'd be having this conversation... Zimmerman would be fucked.
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qman
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There might be more to the story, the DA has not charged him for anything yet, that does not mean he will not in the future.
One would think that there has been a crime committed here, I say give it a little more time, they may be trying to build a solid case here, or there is no evidence of a criminal act.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: qman]
#15975942 - 03/21/12 11:03 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right, except for stalking, engaging, and then shooting an unarmed person. Dude's going to stand trial for murder. The fact that the victim was on the phone talking about how he was being stalked seems like evidence enough. They will have over 1 million signatures on a petition to make sure that happens by the end of the week.
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fireworks_god
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What's the deal with your sig yo?
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qman
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: Right, except for stalking, engaging, and then shooting an unarmed person. Dude's going to stand trial for murder. The fact that the victim was on the phone talking about how he was being stalked seems like evidence enough. They will have over 1 million signatures on a petition to make sure that happens by the end of the week.
Petitions might mean little in this case, and we don't know the facts yet. I agree, it seems from the "news" we have heard that this is a slam dunk case, but charges have not been even filed, there may be facts we don't know about.
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psychotropicwhale
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: What's the deal with your sig yo?
Gravity waves, I am a whale after all.
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Shill
♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋♋

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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15976547 - 03/21/12 01:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
schnauzer said: longtime lurker, here. I didn't see any posts here about the shooting in FL, so thought I'd get one started. Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this. This really pisses me off. There are a lot of angles about this event to discuss--gun rights, police incompetence, race tension, etc.
I'm all for owning a gun, but this "stand your ground law" in FL seems to be used as a spear rather than a shield in this case. You can basically mug someone (even a child), and if they try to protect themselves, you can shoot them. This is a problem, right?
This George Zimmerman guy is going to be lynched if he isn't arrested soon.
Think of it like a dual; similar to back in the day... Whoever shoots first and most accurate.
--------------------
The countdown to the break up of the euro has officially begun. A great financial crisis is going to erupt in Europe, and it is going to shake the world to the core. If you were frightened by what happened back in 2008, then you are going to be absolutely horrified by what is coming next. "You throw the sand against the wind And the wind blows it back again." - William Blake
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DieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said: What's the deal with your sig yo?
Gravity waves, I am a whale after all.
Looks like an illustration of phase vs group velocity.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer] 3
#15977606 - 03/21/12 05:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this.
This is probably not gonna be a very popular response, but here's my take.
First on the Stand Your Ground law. I live in Florida, not too far from where this happened. I also hold a concealed weapon permit. I don't usually carry in my day to day, but when I go camping in the Everglades or kayaking in the Ten-thousand Islands wilderness area west of the Florida Keys, I pack a weapon because I'll be alone and far from help. If someone out there far from civilization comes at me with a machete or gun, I don't think I should have to turn my back to them and run, giving them an advantage, then finally meet force with force only when the attacker is right on me. So I agree with the law as it stands. If someone comes at me, they'll get a bullet as fast as I can pull the trigger. I'm not running.
As to this particular killing, it reads like a witch hunt. Almost everything I've read has already tried and convicted Zimmerman in the court of popular opinion even though all the evidence isn't in yet and the investigation is still underway. I even read today a statement by a law enforcement official who called Martin a "murdered little boy". And all the photos of Martin I've seen anywhere are from when he was a cute little 13 year old, not a 17 year old high schooler.
Furthermore, how much credence Zimmerman's self-defense claim deserves is in part a function Martin's character (and Zimmerman's too). If Martin were a straight-A goody two shoes, I'd find it hard to believe that he attacked Zimmerman. If Martin were a violent thug with a long arrest record, Zimmerman's claim of self-defense would seem very plausible to me. The truth falls somewhere in between. Martin was 17 years old (not a little boy) and the reason he was up in Sanford, FL was because he was suspended from his Miami high school. Not for anything serious [edit: it was serious after all, drugs], but it does make Zimmerman's self-defense claim at least a little plausible.
Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? I wouldn't, but so what? It's not illegal to be where Zimmerman was. It's not illegal for Zimmerman to ask Martin what he was doing. Neither was Martin doing anything illegal. But that's the point. There was some poor judgement going on, but nothing illegal until either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. And which of those happened has not yet been determined.
The bottom line is that we don't know what happened. We don't have all the evidence (new stories are not evidence), and until the investigation is done and the facts known as well as possible, this whole thing reads to me like a witch hunt. And it would suck if Florida changes the Stand Your Ground law so that I have to risk imminent death before I can shoot an asshole trying to rob me.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (03/27/12 12:32 PM)
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memes
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15977743 - 03/21/12 06:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid for pres.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes]
#15977972 - 03/21/12 07:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15978233 - 03/21/12 08:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
I can't stand how the media convicts someone before the investigation is even over.
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qman
Stranger

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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb] 1
#15978339 - 03/21/12 08:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
setb said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I agree with diploid on this one...the facts are not in.
The law does not allow someone to use deadly force if they were the initial aggressor...In time, facts will come out to clarify it some...Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...
I'd represent him for free if I were in FLA.
I can't stand how the media convicts someone before the investigation is even over.
Remember the Duke lacrosse team charged with raping a black stripper.
The DA, media, Duke administrators, Duke professors, and all the local newspapers had these boys convicted before any of the facts were out.
The were protesting at the college in groups, holding candles, holding signs about how horrible the white men were, and convicting them in public.
The ruined several innocent young mens lifes, they dismantled a lacrosse program, and never really apologized for any of it. They figured that these young men were drinking and rented a stripper, so they are bad people and they deserve anything they had coming.
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memes
Blessed



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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: qman]
#15978479 - 03/21/12 09:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I mean....
... did those lacross players rape that stripper?
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qman
Stranger

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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes]
#15978674 - 03/21/12 10:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: I mean....
... did those lacross players rape that stripper?
Sorry, I thought the case was well known. What happened was the DA dragged the case on for many months ignoring the evidence which showed the guys did not rape the girl.
The DA was later fired from his position because of this case, he enjoyed the attention he was getting and had no issue destroying several young mens lifes in the process.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes] 1
#15978720 - 03/21/12 10:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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This case reminds me of Rodney King.
"Yeah it looked like he was on PCP. Then he attacked you, right? And you just acted like you were supposed to."
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Therian
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Quote:
But I genuinely don't believe if Martin was a white adult we'd be having this conversation...
Conversely,I believe if Zimmerman were to have been black we would not be having this conversation. The main issue here seems to be that a somewhat white man shot a black kid.
diploid could not be more correct. I enjoy how the media has already called this a racist attack, when obviously all the facts are not in. I too love the pictures that are shown when he was 10 years old, or how they seem to love to speak of how he had just purchased skittles, as if that is germane to the case at all.
From what I have heard concerning the phone call was that Zimmerman was approaching Martin, asking what he was doing. Martins girlfriend said that he pulled his hoodie over his head as if to disguise himself and began to run. Obviously, to a neighborhood watch member this would indicate some sort of guilt, therefore he chased after him, after this confrontation, the devil is in the details.
I don't know why Martin didn't just stop and say I'm going to my dads house and he lives right there. His parents of course proclaim that the only reason he was pursued was due to the fact that Zimmerman was white, not that he was attempting to conceal himself and run. They also state that Zimmerman should have just stayed in his car and left Martin alone. Well screw that. That is what is always expected. Just stay in your car, let someone vandalize property, or break into someones car, or commit a b&e. It's about time someone confronts someone to see what their intentions are, to ensure the safety of your neighbors, to not allow others to free range to do harm. If more people were like this many neighborhoods wouldn't be over run with crime. People are tired of just sitting in their proverbial cars and allowing others to victimize them.
I'm not saying the kid was going to commit any crime, just that it isn't a crime to attempt to ensure safety in ones own neighborhood. Its being portrayed as if citizens of a community have no right to police their own neighborhoods to prevent crime, as if they only have the right to be victimized.
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fireworks_god
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Therian] 1
#15979576 - 03/22/12 02:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Therian said: I don't know why Martin didn't just stop and say I'm going to my dads house and he lives right there.
Probably because no one owes anyone an explanation as to what they are doing when they are simply walking down the street. The shooter wasn't a police officer, and neighborhood watch isn't synonymous with "follow people around and harass them". I don't know nearly enough to judge the particulars of what happened and if it was justified, but the idea of some douche bag coming up to you on the street and harassing you isn't justifiable in the slightest. For all we know, when some creepy looking Hispanic guy comes up to you and starts asking questions about what you're doing, the pertinent thing to do would be to disguise yourself from him and take off running.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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saintphotios
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Quote:
Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? I wouldn't, but so what? It's not illegal to be where Zimmerman was. It's not illegal for Zimmerman to ask Martin what he was doing. Neither was Martin doing anything illegal. But that's the point. There was some poor judgement going on, but nothing illegal until either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. And which of those happened has not yet been determined.
I'm not extremely familiar with Florida state law. But self-defense is a defense. What we know for sure is that Zimmerman shot Martin. We also know that Zimmerman voluntarily went from a state of no immanent danger, safely in his vehicle, to what he is claiming was an assault on him. He had a weapon on him. Maybe Martin saw the weapon, maybe he didn't. But by ignoring the 911 operator's instruction not to pursue Martin, he went off the reservation. When you voluntarily enter a state of presumed danger, self-defense is off the table. We can argue as to whether or not danger should have been presumed, but 911 dispatch certainly advised against it, and when one person leaves their vehicle at night to pursue someone on foot, any reasonable person would think it is the person on foot that should feel threatened, not Zimmerman.
The ONLY reason he hasn't been charged is because Florida's state law means that it is highly likely that whether or not Zimmerman walks will depend almost entirely on what they choose to charge him with... it's by no means that they're lacking evidence. They've got multiple dispatch phone records, and an eye-witness on the phone with dispatch in which you could actually hear the shot the killed Martin... when moments before said eyewitness stated man with white shirt(Zimmerman) was on top of someone before the shot was fired. But in a stand your ground state, they'd hate to get greedy with charging him with over-charging him and getting burned with acquittal.
The idea that this is self-defense is laughable unless you're using an extremely loose definition of self-defense... which who knows, maybe Florida judges do.
I think we'll be disappointed if we're waiting on too many facts to emerge. In this case there actually was at least one witness, and phone records that in no way help Zimmerman's case. But if I'm in Florida in a dark alley away from eyewitnesses I can just wait for someone to come along, shoot them, and I've eliminated the sole source of evidence against me. In principle, I agree with this law. But if they dismiss this, I may change my standing... b/c what occurred was textbook murder, regardless of whether or not Martin swung on Zimmerman... if some creepy fuck with a gun and no badge gets out of his truck while I'm by myself at night and starts grilling me because I look like I'm "up to no good" ... then I'm threatened.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Quote:
saintphotios said:
Quote:
Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? I wouldn't, but so what? It's not illegal to be where Zimmerman was. It's not illegal for Zimmerman to ask Martin what he was doing. Neither was Martin doing anything illegal. But that's the point. There was some poor judgement going on, but nothing illegal until either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. And which of those happened has not yet been determined.
I'm not extremely familiar with Florida state law. But self-defense is a defense. What we know for sure is that Zimmerman shot Martin. We also know that Zimmerman voluntarily went from a state of no immanent danger, safely in his vehicle, to what he is claiming was an assault on him. He had a weapon on him. Maybe Martin saw the weapon, maybe he didn't. But by ignoring the 911 operator's instruction not to pursue Martin, he went off the reservation. When you voluntarily enter a state of presumed danger, self-defense is off the table. We can argue as to whether or not danger should have been presumed, but 911 dispatch certainly advised against it, and when one person leaves their vehicle at night to pursue someone on foot, any reasonable person would think it is the person on foot that should feel threatened, not Zimmerman.
The ONLY reason he hasn't been charged is because Florida's state law means that it is highly likely that whether or not Zimmerman walks will depend almost entirely on what they choose to charge him with... it's by no means that they're lacking evidence. They've got multiple dispatch phone records, and an eye-witness on the phone with dispatch in which you could actually hear the shot the killed Martin... when moments before said eyewitness stated man with white shirt(Zimmerman) was on top of someone before the shot was fired. But in a stand your ground state, they'd hate to get greedy with charging him with over-charging him and getting burned with acquittal.
The idea that this is self-defense is laughable unless you're using an extremely loose definition of self-defense... which who knows, maybe Florida judges do.
I think we'll be disappointed if we're waiting on too many facts to emerge. In this case there actually was at least one witness, and phone records that in no way help Zimmerman's case. But if I'm in Florida in a dark alley away from eyewitnesses I can just wait for someone to come along, shoot them, and I've eliminated the sole source of evidence against me. In principle, I agree with this law. But if they dismiss this, I may change my standing... b/c what occurred was textbook murder, regardless of whether or not Martin swung on Zimmerman... if some creepy fuck with a gun and no badge gets out of his truck while I'm by myself at night and starts grilling me because I look like I'm "up to no good" ... then I'm threatened.
As with most things, the devil is in the details...This is going to boil down to the sequence of events just before the shooting. In order to use self-defense, Zimmerman will have to show that Martin either attacked first or escalated a non-deadly combat into a deadly combat...The latter is awfully hard to prove because Martin was unarmed...If the former can be proven, then Zimmerman is still going to have to show that he reasonably feared that he was in mortal danger...another hard sell with an unarmed victim...
But this is nothing new...Self-defense claims almost always fail. There's every indication that Zimmerman will be charged...whether it's murder or manslaughter will largely depend on the sequence of events here.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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When you voluntarily enter a state of presumed danger, self-defense is off the table.
I don't buy it. 911 instructions are not binding on a citizen legally present in a public place where he has a right to be. If I go downtown where a riot is currently taking place but where I have a right to peaceably stand (presumably a dangerous place) and someone comes at me with a knife, I have a right to self-defense. It doesn't matter that I went into a riot area. I have a right to enter a riot area if a feel like it. And I have a right to defend myself there if attacked.
I'm not saying that Martin attacked Zimmerman, but maybe he did. Maybe he got pissed that some self-important asshole (which I agree Zimmerman is) was asking him questions and Martin jumped Zimmerman. Or maybe Zimmerman is a trigger-happy idiot with a gun and murdered Martin. WE DON'T KNOW. And we may never know. In the absence of something to refute Zimmerman's claim that Martin jumped him, the law as-written favors Zimmerman.
And point of fact, Zimmerman probably did not bloody his own head and nose. Something/someone smacked him to make him bleed. The only plausible thing to do that is Martin.
I'm not defending either side. I'm just saying that we don't know and may never know. If we never know, Zimmerman wins on the word of the law. Tough cookies if Martin was actually murdered and Zimmerman gets away with it. The law goes wrong all the time and we have to accept that on the trade-off that it goes right MOST of the time.
In this case there actually was at least one witness, and phone records that in no way help Zimmerman's case
I don't read it that way. The phone conversation shows that Zimmerman was following Martin and asking him questions. That is not illegal. Then SOMETHING happened. If what happened is that Martin got pissed and jumped Zimmerman, then self-defense stands. It doesn't matter that Zimmerman was following Martin. They were both in a public place and both had a right to be there. The issue hinges on who (if anyone) attacked whom first.
I think we'll be disappointed if we're waiting on too many facts to emerge.
I agree. And if the facts currently available are all we're going to get, then Zimmerman wins on the law as written. He claims Martin attacked, and no one has refuted that. That he was following Martin is irrelevant. That is not illegal.
For the record, I picture Zimmerman came up behind Martin and maybe put his hand on Martin's shoulder to turn him around, and at that point, Martin took a swipe at Zimmerman who pulled the trigger. If that's how it went down, then Zimmerman is a murderer in my book. But belief is not proof under the law, and we have to accept that even though black people are outraged and white people are on a guilt-driven witch hunt.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15980197 - 03/22/12 08:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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How fucked up is this? Sanford, FL commissioners are calling for the police chief to be fired even before the investigation is complete. A bunch of emotional morons. No wonder our society has illegal plants.
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The Sanford City Commission voted 3-2 that it had no confidence in Police Chief Bill Lee Jr. over his handling of the Trayvon Martin shooting Wednesday. Velma Williams, the city’s only black commissioner, said she spent 15 years trying to bring together the black community and white community, and the Martin episode has taken an emotional toll. "And now this. It’s a national embarrassment," she said.
Commissioners Patty Mahany and Randy Jones supported the police chief, who came on the job last May. "I would not want to see someone tried in the court of public opinion without all the facts," Jones said. Mayor Jeff Triplett sounded a similar theme, though he voted against Lee. "We only have a very small piece of the puzzle right now," he said.
Commissioners cannot fire Lee, as he reports to City Manager Norton Bonaparte Jr. Williams implied that if Bonaparte doesn't fire Lee, she would review his contract the next time it comes up for renewal. She nearly fainted after the vote because she became so emotional, and had to be treated by a paramedic.
The rest of the story is at MSNBC.
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saintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid] 1
#15980227 - 03/22/12 08:35 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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911 instructions are not binding on a citizen legally present in a public place where he has a right to be. If I go downtown where a riot is currently taking place but where I have a right to peaceably stand (presumably a dangerous place) and someone comes at me with a knife, I have a right to self-defense. It doesn't matter that I went into a riot area. I have a right to enter a riot area if a feel like it. And I have a right to defend myself there if attacked.
I agree that they're not binding, and again, I'm not an expert on Florida law. But even Sen Peaden, the guy that wrote Florida stand your ground law said that ignoring 911 dispatch's instructions removes Zimmerman's self-defense protection. It doesn't have to be binding to make his self-defense claim invalid. He wasn't merely going into a dangerous area. He was pursuing the exact person he later claimed he was defending himself from. Again, self-defense is a defense. It's like using insanity as a defense. Once you plea insanity, the burden of proof shifts to the defense and it's no longer just about reasonable doubt. The prosecution doesn't have to prove that the defendant wasn't insane. The defense has to verify that insanity was the reason the crime was committed. Because the plea will presumably be self-defense, the burden of proof here is on the defense to show compelling evidence that Martin did pose a mortal threat, or that Zimmerman reasonably believed so. Because of the plea, lack of evidence doesn't necessarily help Zimmerman's case. Again, because Florida law may be different, I can't say this is definitely the case, but it usually is. And the Senator that wrote it seems to agree. If not, you could shoot anyone for any reason, and as long as there was no evidence that they weren't threatening, the law would come out on your side. I just have a hard time believing the Florida law was that poorly written.
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Enlil
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saintphotios said:
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911 instructions are not binding on a citizen legally present in a public place where he has a right to be. If I go downtown where a riot is currently taking place but where I have a right to peaceably stand (presumably a dangerous place) and someone comes at me with a knife, I have a right to self-defense. It doesn't matter that I went into a riot area. I have a right to enter a riot area if a feel like it. And I have a right to defend myself there if attacked.
I agree that they're not binding, and again, I'm not an expert on Florida law. But even Sen Peaden, the guy that wrote Florida stand your ground law said that ignoring 911 dispatch's instructions removes Zimmerman's self-defense protection. It doesn't have to be binding to make his self-defense claim invalid. He wasn't merely going into a dangerous area. He was pursuing the exact person he later claimed he was defending himself from. Again, self-defense is a defense. It's like using insanity as a defense. Once you plea insanity, the burden of proof shifts to the defense and it's no longer just about reasonable doubt. The prosecution doesn't have to prove that the defendant wasn't insane. The defense has to verify that insanity was the reason the crime was committed. Because the plea will presumably be self-defense, the burden of proof here is on the defense to show compelling evidence that Martin did pose a mortal threat, or that Zimmerman reasonably believed so. Because of the plea, lack of evidence doesn't necessarily help Zimmerman's case. Again, because Florida law may be different, I can't say this is definitely the case, but it usually is. And the Senator that wrote it seems to agree. If not, you could shoot anyone for any reason, and as long as there was no evidence that they weren't threatening, the law would come out on your side. I just have a hard time believing the Florida law was that poorly written.
There's no question that the burden will be on the defendant to prove that he reasonably feared for his life and acted with reasonable force. That is not in dispute...But he has really good evidence to present...namely, eyewitness testimony. The prosecution won't really have anyone to testify as to exactly what happened. They can only chip away at his testimony by cross examining his story against itself and the other evidence.
The senator is completely mistaken in his statement that ignoring the warning from 911 negates the defense...That's simply someone trying to get his name in the paper on the "right" side of an issue.
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Diploid
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the Senator that wrote it seems to agree
Of course he'll say that even if he doesn't agree. To say otherwise is political suicide. 
If not, you could shoot anyone for any reason, and as long as there was no evidence that they weren't threatening, the law would come out on your side.
Well, that's one of the best critiques against the Stand Your Ground law, IMO.
I just have a hard time believing the Florida law was that poorly written.
As with any law, most of the time it works as intended. Case in point:
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Sept. 17--POMPANO BEACH -- When an angry motorist came rushing up to the window of his pickup truck Wednesday, Cleveland Murdock had a gun and Florida law to back him.
The Broward Sheriff's Office said Thursday their case is closed in the road rage incident that left Patrick Lavoie, 33, dead in the middle of a residential street. Murdock acted in self-defense by shooting in the heart the man who approached him, investigators determined.
Witnesses told investigators Lavoie jumped out of the Honda Civic his girlfriend was driving, upset that Murdock seemed to be tailgating the couple. Lavoie angrily charged toward Murdock's Toyota Tacoma and tried to open the door to grab him, witnesses told police.
Murdock, 38, fatally shot the glass worker, who was holding only a cigarette lighter in his hand.
Investigators detained Murdock for hours, while they compared his story about fearing for his life to eyewitness accounts. Then they told him he was free to go.
Sheriff's Office officials say they plan to forward the case to Broward prosecutors for review. If homicide prosecutors examine the case and feel they should present it to a grand jury, they will do so, said Ron Ishoy, spokesman for the Broward State Attorney's Office.
Reached on his cell phone Thursday, Murdock, who lives in West Palm Beach, would say only that he had just left his doctor's office and he wasn't feeling well.
Lavoie's relatives, who live in Coconut Creek, declined to comment, saying they were too distraught.
That Murdock was allowed to go home after the fatal shooting left many who knew Lavoie dumbfounded.
"I don't understand how you can kill a person and nothing happens," said Vicky Richardson, a close friend and former neighbor who hung flowers on Thursday yards from where Lavoie was killed. "Not even a single day in jail."
According to legal experts, it appears Murdock had Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law on his side.
Sought by the National Rifle Association, the law allows a person to shoot to kill if he or she feels in danger of death or great bodily harm, regardless of location. At home, in a vehicle, or out on the street -- it doesn't matter.
Before the law was passed in 2005, Florida residents had the right only in their homes. Outside their castles, Floridians were required to retreat from an attack, if possible, before fighting back.
Noted defense attorney Mike Dutko, who is not involved in the Pompano Beach case, said it appears Murdock was in the clear after Lavoie reached into the truck.
"That alone was a game-changer," said Dutko. He equated reaching into the truck to first-degree burglary.
Prosecutors everywhere have rallied against the "Stand Your Ground" law, saying it might be misinterpreted by citizens who think they have the right to use deadly force, and that it could be manipulated by those with itchy trigger fingers.
William Cervone, president of Florida's Prosecuting Attorneys Association, said the law often leaves people settling cases on the streets instead of in a courtroom. Also, he said, it provides a shooter the opportunity to make up a story without the victim's side of what happened.
"In general, it has the potential of leaving victims and their survivors without their day in court," said Cervone. "The last person standing has the ability to say the magic words 'I was in fear' and walk away without a jury being able to decide."
Florida Sun Sentinel News
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saintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15980296 - 03/22/12 08:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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But he has really good evidence to present...namely, eyewitness testimony.
What are you referring to? The only eyewitness testimony I've heard was two different women, both saying that they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. If anything, eyewitness testimony will be the nail in Zimmerman's coffin.
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To say otherwise is political suicide.
He's no longer in politics. He was just in Congress when the law was passed. He hasn't been in office since 2010. Maybe he is just saying that because it's popular opinion. But that would be true regardless of who we asked. If there's anyone out there that should know the law, it's him. And I'm not aware of any political ramifications for him at this point.
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Enlil
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saintphotios said:
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But he has really good evidence to present...namely, eyewitness testimony.
What are you referring to? The only eyewitness testimony I've heard was two different women, both saying that they saw Zimmerman on top of Martin. If anything, eyewitness testimony will be the nail in Zimmerman's coffin.
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To say otherwise is political suicide.
He's no longer in politics. He was just in Congress when the law was passed. He hasn't been in office since 2010. Maybe he is just saying that because it's popular opinion. But that would be true regardless of who we asked. If there's anyone out there that should know the law, it's him. And I'm not aware of any political ramifications for him at this point.
Zimmerman was an eyewitness, and he is the only one who can testify to the whole thing...Unless he's a blind, deaf mute and I didn't hear about that part.
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Diploid
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He's no longer in politics. He was just in Congress when the law was passed
Well, it's becoming more and more clear that, guilty or not, Zimmerman is gonna hang. This isn't about the law any more. It's about emotional people looking for a witch to burn. Even the police chief is in hot water before the investigation has concluded.
Funny I didn't see black people this pissed off when OJ killed two white people in cold blood. They were cheering in the streets, as I recall.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15980428 - 03/22/12 09:31 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid said: Funny I didn't see black people this pissed off when OJ killed two white people in cold blood. They were cheering in the streets, as I recall.
Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...A verdict that many, many people agree with...myself included...
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luvdemshrooms
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15980582 - 03/22/12 10:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid said: WE DON'T KNOW. And we may never know.
Around here it's all too rare to see those words.
Kudos on a sensible position.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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saintphotios
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Zimmerman was an eyewitness, and he is the only one who can testify to the whole thing...Unless he's a blind, deaf mute and I didn't hear about that part.
Ahhh... well yeah, but his testimony is a foregone conclusion. I'm talking about the two other women that aren't about to get arrested for manslaughter(one white/one hispanic if that matters) that heard a "young boy" screaming, heard a gunshot, then looked out the window to see Zimmerman on top of Martin. I'd say the jury will find that a bit more compelling than Zimmerman saying "Yo he came at me first."
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Well, it's becoming more and more clear that, guilty or not, Zimmerman is gonna hang. This isn't about the law any more. It's about emotional people looking for a witch to burn.
I don't completely disagree. But I'd have way more sympathy for Zimmerman if all of this wasn't directly caused by him being utterly incapable of minding his own fucking business and letting the cops(who already said they were on the way) do their job... namely, harassing unarmed black kids Does he deserve to face murder charges because he wanted to play Billy Badass sidewalk avenger and couldn't back off and let the cops handle it like they told him to... no. He deserves to face murder charges because he did all that -- plus he shot an unarmed fucking kid. I have seen very few 17 year olds that, without a weapon, would pose a mortal threat to a guy the size of Zimmerman.
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They cheered when he was acquitted...A verdict that many, many people agree with...myself included...
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Enlil
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saintphotios said: Ahhh... well yeah, but his testimony is a foregone conclusion. I'm talking about the two other women that aren't about to get arrested for manslaughter(one white/one hispanic if that matters) that heard a "young boy" screaming, heard a gunshot, then looked out the window to see Zimmerman on top of Martin. I'd say the jury will find that a bit more compelling than Zimmerman saying "Yo he came at me first."
Whether the jury believes him or not is another issue...but self-defense cases almost always come down to whether or not the jury believes the defendant...This is nothing new.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15980746 - 03/22/12 10:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Enlil said: Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...
To me that's even more sick. They were happy that he not only committed murder but also that he got away with it. It makes me wonder how many people fantasize about the same thing.
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Enlil
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psychotropicwhale said:
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Enlil said: Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...
To me that's even more sick. They were happy that he not only committed murder but also that he got away with it. It makes me wonder how many people fantasize about the same thing.
I think they were happy to see that someone actually got a fair verdict...I don't think they were even thinking about the actual crime...
I'm just guessing, of course...I wasn't in the street cheering...
Of course, this is getting a bit off topic.
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qman
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15980774 - 03/22/12 11:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Enlil said:
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Diploid said: Funny I didn't see black people this pissed off when OJ killed two white people in cold blood. They were cheering in the streets, as I recall.
Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...A verdict that many, many people agree with...myself included...
Enlil, I like your posts and agree with many of the things you have said, I know you are a attorney as well, why did you agree with the OJ verdict?
I thought most of the jurors said that they knew he was guilty, but did not want to convict him because of unfair convictions against blacks in the past, am I missing something?
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: qman]
#15980799 - 03/22/12 11:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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qman said: Enlil, I like your posts and agree with many of the things you have said, I know you are a attorney as well, why did you agree with the OJ verdict?
Not to derail anything, but it isn't a matter of thinking he didn't do it...The state totally failed to present anything close to a case... I watched every second of testimony and read every word of the transcripts, and I can't see any way the jury could have found any differently.
The jurors basically said the same thing...the state didn't make a case...although most of them believed he did it.
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qman
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15980907 - 03/22/12 11:38 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Enlil said:
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qman said: Enlil, I like your posts and agree with many of the things you have said, I know you are a attorney as well, why did you agree with the OJ verdict?
Not to derail anything, but it isn't a matter of thinking he didn't do it...The state totally failed to present anything close to a case... I watched every second of testimony and read every word of the transcripts, and I can't see any way the jury could have found any differently.
The jurors basically said the same thing...the state didn't make a case...although most of them believed he did it.
Good enough, I am sure many that study and practice the law might come up with the same conclusion.
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fireworks_god
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psychotropicwhale said:
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Enlil said: Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...
To me that's even more sick. They were happy that he not only committed murder but also that he got away with it.
Or they cheered for an altogether different reason. Maybe they didn't think he committed the crime in the first place, you know?
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psychotropicwhale
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DNA ShmeeNA.
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Enlil
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psychotropicwhale said: DNA ShmeeNA.
Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.
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Not Quite Social


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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15981439 - 03/22/12 01:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I feel horrible for Trayvon's family.
Prison will be hell for Zimmerman.
To me, people like Zimmerman ... their minds don't work right. Fear and anger warp their brains. Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.
Therian is absolutely right: that gun allowed Zimmerman to both overcome his irrational fear and exercise his rage.
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DieCommie

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Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.
I think that claiming to know this from your vantage point is precisely what most here are rejecting. You cant possibly know that, and we know you cant. If he wasnt armed it could have gone many ways, he could be the one who is dead - you dont know.
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Therian
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15981468 - 03/22/12 01:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.
I believe he was using sarcasm there. DNA is not conclusive? WTF? I believe we should leave the ambulance chasing to you, and the DNA evidence to the geneticists. Do you understand the probability of someones DNA "fingerprint" being found on a scene, and it being of someone that is not the actual offender of a crime?
Also if it is so unreliable, then tell me how it can be used as a tool to exonerate those convicted of a crime. Perhaps it is only useful to prove someone didn't commit a crime, but never to prove that they did. Makes perfect sense to me. You know damn well why they were dancing in the streets. Is it Ok if the caucasions riot now?
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saintphotios
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Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.
Yeah that's bullshit. He didn't do anything with a gun that he couldn't have just as easily done with his truck(actually, it would've been far easier with his truck). Everybody blames the guns. That train's never late. You want to ban alcohol? How about vehicles? They cause way more deaths than guns.
I hate to use the exact same line of reasoning as kids on the high school debate team... but it really is that absurd not to blame this on the fact that Zimmerman's a prick.
Edited by saintphotios (03/22/12 01:56 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Therian] 1
#15981493 - 03/22/12 01:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Therian said:
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Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.
I believe he was using sarcasm there. DNA is not conclusive? WTF? I believe we should leave the ambulance chasing to you, and the DNA evidence to the geneticists. Do you understand the probability of someones DNA "fingerprint" being found on a scene, and it being of someone that is not the actual offender of a crime?
Also if it is so unreliable, then tell me how it can be used as a tool to exonerate those convicted of a crime. Perhaps it is only useful to prove someone didn't commit a crime, but never to prove that they did. Makes perfect sense to me. You know damn well why they were dancing in the streets. Is it Ok if the caucasions riot now?
You must have watched CSI...grats...
I practice in criminal law...I have seen DNA evidence completely discredited many, many times...What you don't know is a lot...DNA is a tool...like many other tools...and it is far from infallible.
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Not Quite Social


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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15981505 - 03/22/12 01:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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A gun is a magical thing.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15982113 - 03/22/12 04:08 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid said: When you voluntarily enter a state of presumed danger, self-defense is off the table.
I don't buy it. 911 instructions are not binding on a citizen legally present in a public place where he has a right to be.
there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time is it off the table, it is an inalienable right, cities like illinois are now discovering it
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HarveyWalbanger
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15982201 - 03/22/12 04:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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If only trayvon was old enough for a CCW... Then we could have had a gray area gunfight, and a trial over who was in more imminent danger.
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saintphotios
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Quote:
there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time is it off the table, it is an inalienable right
"self-defense" as a legal defense can certainly be off the table.
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Enlil
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Quote:
saintphotios said:
Quote:
there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time is it off the table, it is an inalienable right
"self-defense" as a legal defense can certainly be off the table.
That's true...there's no constitutional right to self-defense...States can define the right and limit it however they want... They could even abolish it altogether if they wanted...
But, as a practical matter, self-defense is available for anyone who can prove that they were not the initial aggressor and they were reasonably in fear of imminent bodily harm.
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DieCommie

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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15982549 - 03/22/12 05:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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What if you were the initial aggressor and are in imminent danger of being killed? Just a hypothetical. Pick a fist fight, get shot at, run to your gun and shoot back.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: DieCommie]
#15982589 - 03/22/12 06:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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DieCommie said: What if you were the initial aggressor and are in imminent danger of being killed? Just a hypothetical. Pick a fist fight, get shot at, run to your gun and shoot back.
Most states allow an initial aggressor to claim self-defense in one of two situations: 1. Cessation of hostilities - If you make clear to the other person that you no longer intend to engage in any violence, and you do, in fact, cease all attack, you can claim self-defense if he re-initiates.
2. Sudden escalation - If the other party suddenly escalates a non-lethal fight (that you initiated) into a lethal attack, then you can respond with deadly force...
BUT...self-defense is NOT available in mutual combat situations...so if two guys are in a fight mutually, and one calls the cops, there's no self-defense for either...The same is true for mutually lethal combat...neither side has a self defense claim...so two gangsters shooting it out in the street don't have that defense.
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setb
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: I feel horrible for Trayvon's family.
Prison will be hell for Zimmerman.
To me, people like Zimmerman ... their minds don't work right. Fear and anger warp their brains. Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.
Therian is absolutely right: that gun allowed Zimmerman to both overcome his irrational fear and exercise his rage.
I doubt he is going to prison; unless there is some kind of evidence that we don't know about they don't have much on him. Just because a bunch of over emotional folks are throwing a fit doesn't make him guilty of a crime. It is disgraceful that so many seem all to willing to convict the guy before the investigation is even over.
I heard that the city councilor that brought up the vote of no confidence against the police chief fainted over this- right there at the meeting. This really is unbelievable- it is like a parody, like something out of the onion.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15984816 - 03/23/12 07:33 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I didn't realize, until I listened to the tapes for this case, that Latinos use the racial slur coon. I have always heard them use the n word. This doesn't make Georgie look very good.
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Enlil
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: I didn't realize, until I listened to the tapes for this case, that Latinos use the racial slur coon. I have always heard them use the n word. This doesn't make Georgie look very good.
I can't tell for sure that he actually said that...it's not clear at all on the tape..
What IS clear on the tape is that the 911 operator didn't tell him not to follow the guy...so...that whole argument is moot.
His call also helps his self-defense claim a lot. He's clearly not planning a murder during this call. He's trying to get cops there...If he was up to no good, he wouldn't be on the phone with 911.
I didn't hear anything particularly damning on the other tapes, either...One person says that they saw zimmerman on top of martin, but that was AFTER the shot...that doesn't say much.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15984885 - 03/23/12 08:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It sounds crystal clear to me. I didn't even read about what was supposed to have been said, I just listened to it.
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Enlil
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: It sounds crystal clear to me. I didn't even read about what was supposed to have been said, I just listened to it.
The "fucking" part was clear...I can't be sure what he said after that...
Not that it matters...like I said, the tape helps his case.
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Beefcakemighty
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schnauzer said:
This law isn't meant to encourage confrontations, it is supposed to enable law abiding citizens to go about their business with some degree of peace of mind as to their personal safety. The law in most states is that if someone enters your home, and you reasonably believe they are there to do harm, you can use deadly force, the "castle doctrine". The "stand your ground" law expands your ability to use defensive deadly force to any location, not just your home.
Nailed it on the head. In this case using the "stand your ground" law is being miss used. It's jack asses like Zimmerman make responsible gun owners like me look bad to the public and cause more pressure for banning and restricting firearms... I hope this Zimmerman gets fucked up.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15984912 - 03/23/12 08:19 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: What IS clear on the tape is that the 911 operator didn't tell him not to follow the guy...so...that whole argument is moot.
When they ask if George is following him, and he responds in the affirmative, which is then followed by "OK we don't need you to do that"
In the legal world that does not count as telling him not to follow the guy? It would have to be more specific? Such as "don't follow the guy"?
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Enlil
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said:
Quote:
Enlil said: What IS clear on the tape is that the 911 operator didn't tell him not to follow the guy...so...that whole argument is moot.
When they ask if George is following him, and he responds in the affirmative, which is then followed by "OK we don't need you to do that"
In the legal world that does not count as telling him not to follow the guy? It would have to be more specific? Such as "don't follow the guy"?
It wasn't a command in any sense of the word...he was saying that following the guy wasn't something that they "needed."...that's not the same as saying "do not follow the guy"
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15984917 - 03/23/12 08:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Right, that's what I figured you meant.
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Enlil
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: Right, that's what I figured you meant.
Not that it would matter anyway...Even if it had been a command, that doesn't mean that zimmerman would have to stop following the guy...It would just tend to make zimmerman look more like the initial aggressor.
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Humility
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15985128 - 03/23/12 09:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's despicable that people would defend in any way the scenario of a 17 year old kid winding up dead feet from his father's house found unarmed and killed by someone that's driving down the street in a vehicle and armed with a 9mm who apparently confronted the teen based on false premises.
The fact that this individual wasn't taken in for questioning and that no significant immediate criminal investigation took place is proof enough as to what's happening.
it's really quite deplorable. You can't walk down the street without being murdered and then having the murderer claim self defense and have a bunch of people claim that "we don't have all the facts yet" in a tone that's anything but impartial.
Zimmerman isn't going to do any real time behind this, they never do.
For the record, Zimmerman was a "self appointed" neighborhood "watchman". The national association for the neighborhood watch has released a statementing claiming that his actions are the antithesis of what they recommend and support and that the community he claimed to be "watching" was not at all registered with the neighborhood watch.
This was a guy with a gun who ran up on an unarmed black teen and killed him in the middle of the street and when the police came he wasn't placed in handcuffs.
I challenge you to find me one instance of a black man doing that to someone and him not being placed in handcuffs. There are many cases of men accidentally killing others and being charged with first or second degree murder.
People who support the state and disparate justice will reap what they sow.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985141 - 03/23/12 09:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: It's despicable that people would defend in any way the scenario of a 17 year old kid winding up dead feet from his father's house found unarmed and killed by someone that's driving down the street in a vehicle and armed with a 9mm who apparently confronted the teen based on false premises.
The fact that this individual wasn't taken in for questioning and that no significant immediate criminal investigation took place is proof enough as to what's happening.
it's really quite deplorable. You can't walk down the street without being murdered and then having the murderer claim self defense and have a bunch of people claim that "we don't have all the facts yet" in a tone that's anything but impartial.
Zimmerman isn't going to do any real time behind this, they never do.
For the record, Zimmerman was a "self appointed" neighborhood "watchman". The national association for the neighborhood watch has released a statementing claiming that his actions are the antithesis of what they recommend and support and that the community he claimed to be "watching" was not at all registered with the neighborhood watch.
This was a guy with a gun who ran up on an unarmed black teen and killed him in the middle of the street and when the police came he wasn't placed in handcuffs.
I challenge you to find me one instance of a black man doing that to someone and him not being placed in handcuffs. There are many cases of men accidentally killing others and being charged with first or second degree murder.
People who support the state and disparate justice will reap what they sow.
You speak of it as if you know more about what happened than the rest of us...Did you see it? I didn't...In any case, there's no indication anyone "ran up" on anyone and shot them...
I admit that I am a bit biased toward the defense side...it has nothing to do with race..that's just how I'm wired...But 90% of my clients are black and I do my very best to get them the best possible outcome...
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985154 - 03/23/12 09:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It would probably be more appropriate to say that he waddled up on him.
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setb
10th level beer nerd
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Quote:
I challenge you to find me one instance of a black man doing that to someone and him not being placed in handcuffs. There are many cases of men accidentally killing others and being charged with first or second degree murder.
I challenge you to find an instance of a black man doing this and it becoming national news. I'm sorry but in this country you are innocent until proven guilty. The man said it was self defense and unless there is something out there we don't know then they have nothing on him as far as a murder conviction goes.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985202 - 03/23/12 10:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Where do you get the idea that he wasn't placed in handcuffs...Here's his mugshot

He was arrested, processed and released pending investigation..
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setb
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15985209 - 03/23/12 10:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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That's just what he wants to believe because he thinks this is some kind of big racist conspiracy.
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qman
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985226 - 03/23/12 10:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: It's despicable that people would defend in any way the scenario of a 17 year old kid winding up dead feet from his father's house found unarmed and killed by someone that's driving down the street in a vehicle and armed with a 9mm who apparently confronted the teen based on false premises.
The fact that this individual wasn't taken in for questioning and that no significant immediate criminal investigation took place is proof enough as to what's happening.
it's really quite deplorable. You can't walk down the street without being murdered and then having the murderer claim self defense and have a bunch of people claim that "we don't have all the facts yet" in a tone that's anything but impartial.
Zimmerman isn't going to do any real time behind this, they never do.
For the record, Zimmerman was a "self appointed" neighborhood "watchman". The national association for the neighborhood watch has released a statementing claiming that his actions are the antithesis of what they recommend and support and that the community he claimed to be "watching" was not at all registered with the neighborhood watch.
This was a guy with a gun who ran up on an unarmed black teen and killed him in the middle of the street and when the police came he wasn't placed in handcuffs.
I challenge you to find me one instance of a black man doing that to someone and him not being placed in handcuffs. There are many cases of men accidentally killing others and being charged with first or second degree murder.
People who support the state and disparate justice will reap what they sow.
Zimmerman was questioned, and there is a on going investigation, who said it ended?
Just because the investigation is taking more time than some people want, it does not mean the investigation is flawed. Remember the whole country is looking at how they proceed, no one wants to make a mistake, or be accused of letting a murderer free.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15985240 - 03/23/12 10:24 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Where do you get the idea that he wasn't placed in handcuffs...Here's his mugshot
This illustrates my point. Our friend Humility is 100% convinced of Zimmerman's guilt even though the investigation isn't even over yet. Add to that the fact that apparently, he's also ignorant of highly salient facts that ARE available like that Zimmerman was in fact arrested and processed before being released pending the results of the investigation.
Humility is blithely ignorant, but that doesn't stop him from trying, convicting, and hanging Zimmerman anyway.
And he's throwing around words like despicable and deplorable. I love the irony.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15985249 - 03/23/12 10:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think Humility is just racist against hispanic people...that's why he wants to lynch this guy without knowing the whole story.
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Humility
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15985257 - 03/23/12 10:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I need to read a few more articles. Everything I've read says that he wasn't processed at all, that he gave his account at the scene and that he was free to go.
If that's incorrect, then I'm willing to retract those statements.
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Enlil
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985279 - 03/23/12 10:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: I need to read a few more articles. Everything I've read says that he wasn't processed at all, that he gave his account at the scene and that he was free to go.
If that's incorrect, then I'm willing to retract those statements.
I may be wrong about the mugshot...It appears that it is from 2005...
In any case, that doesn't mean that he wasn't placed in handcuffs while being questioned...
Edit: So it looks like he was not arrested because FL law prohibits him from being arrested under the circumstances...that's what the police department says, at least...They also go on to say that the physical evidence at the scene supported Zimmerman's story.
I'm no expert on FL law, but I suspect the police know more than I do about the details..
In addition, the investigation is still ongoing.
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setb
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15985317 - 03/23/12 10:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is so predictable that all the racists are coming out of the woodwork now: Al Sharpton, Lewis Farrakhan, Obama, etc. It is really sad that this kid is being used as a pawn in their game, used as fuel for their racism. Farrakhan is talking about causing violence and Sharpton said the same in a more roundabout and veiled way, isn't that nice?
The thing that must be understood is: these racists are not angry about this killing. No, they see this as a gift, an opportunity to further their agenda.
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psychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15985337 - 03/23/12 10:48 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Al and Lewie are obviously racists, but how do you figure that President Obama is?
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Beefcakemighty
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LMAO I just find it hard for a full grown man to be so scared by a 17yo black kid walking down the street and felt the need to call the police and then engage the kid for no reason. A 17yo with no weapon was such a threat that he needed to fire his gun?
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setb
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15985376 - 03/23/12 10:57 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It really is a testament to the manipulative nature of our media that such a statement is not completely obvious. I can't stand listening to Jeremiah Wright for two minutes; Obama sat in his church for 20 years. Wright baptized his children and married him. Not to mention the fact that Obama surrounds himself with other racists- look at Eric Holder.
On top of that: every one of his actions on matters of race suggests this. Remember "he acted stupidly?" I think he has a real problem with white people and Americans in general. I also think he has a real problem with the British and with Israel/Jews. Just going off of how he treats people and what he says. Obama treats Benjamin Netanyahu in a way that I wouldn't treat an enemy.
It is my opinion, but I judge people by the company they keep, by their actions, and by their words.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Quote:
Beefcakemighty said: LMAO I just find it hard for a full grown man to be so scared by a 17yo black kid walking down the street and felt the need to call the police and then engage the kid for no reason. A 17yo with no weapon was such a threat that he needed to fire his gun?
Generally, I'd agree with you..but Zimmerman looks like a total pussy to me...I think he'd be easily frightened...not to mention the fact that he sounded like a total wimp on the 911 call as well.
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fireworks_god
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: Al and Lewie are obviously racists, but how do you figure that President Obama is?
To put it bluntly: "‘If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,’ Obama says".
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setb
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: Al and Lewie are obviously racists, but how do you figure that President Obama is?
To put it bluntly: "‘If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,’ Obama says".
He is clearly stoking the fire on this; Obama wants the chaos. If for no other reason: it provides a great distraction to the horrible economy, gas prices, etc.
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Diploid
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15985714 - 03/23/12 12:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everything I've read says that he wasn't processed at all, that he gave his account at the scene and that he was free to go.
Zimmerman's arrest report, clicky >>> http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf
Here's an excerpt:
I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was the original caller for the suspicious person complain), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs.
The arrest report goes on to say:
...[Zimmerman] was transported to the Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman was placed in an interview room at SPD, where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton.
If that's incorrect, then I'm willing to retract those statements.
What you should retract is your summary conviction of a man who hasn't even been arraigned yet.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Phred
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb] 1
#15985720 - 03/23/12 12:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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The inimitable Ace at Ace of Spades HQ weighs in with his usual cut-through-the-crap precision. I am deliberately selecting just a few of his points to cut and paste here. More at the link. Go there. You won't be disappointed
Quote:
Random Thoughts About The Shooting of Trayvon Martin —Ace
Oh, the Media decided We Have To Have a National Discussion about this story.
1. I appreciate the media dubbing Zimmerman "a white Hispanic." Like the Israelis, he's now an honorary member of the Oppressive White Majority.
2. Certain local stories of race-on-race crime ignite the media's passions. Others do not.
3. Most of the time, stories like the one I just linked are not reported by the media, for various reasons. One is that, alas, black on white crime is so common as to be not newsworthy, whereas the reverse is rare and hence, oddly, makes national news... (more at the link)
4. The cops acted predictably and understandably in not arresting Zimmerman. Here are the facts, as they knew them at the time: Zimmerman was a law-abiding citizen who gave them lots of (correct) tips about local crime. He was helpful to the police (probably also annoying in being too vigilant -- but while such people may annoy the police, they nevertheless appreciate the help that comes with the annoyance).
He called in to 911 to report a "suspicious" character, then followed him, waiting for police to arrive. Eventually there was some violence (Zimmerman was reportedly bloodied) and he claimed self-defense.
Now, under those circumstances, the police are not going to be very suspicious of Zimmerman. If he was attempting a murder, he went about it in a strange way -- calling police to arrive at the scene of the crime before there was a crime. He had no known motive against this Trayvon Martin fellow -- they'd never met.
Why suspect a deliberate murder?
That doesn't make Zimmerman innocent -- but it does explain why the police thought he was likely innocent of wrongdoing.
...At the heart of every self-defense case are a pair of related questions: Did the defendant reasonably believe his safety was in jeopardy when he struck the fatal blow? And, based on the circumstances, did the defendant act lawfully?
Facts, not ginned up racial outrage or general anti-gun animus, answer these questions.
Various inarticulate, charity-hire racists don't need a sober assessment of the facts, because their conclusions are animated by racism -- the party of the Disfavored Race is always guilty. (Even when the member of the Disfavored Race is only an honorary member of that Disfavored Race.)
7. The media is a full-court press to politicize this, noting that the entire Republican field has remained "silent" on this case.
Two problems: First, Obama himself remained "silent" until yesterday, when he declared if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin. (And not, for example, like the guys who set fire to the white boy.)
This happened a month ago. Obama waited a month to comment, and previously his administration refused comment, calling it a "local" matter.
So why suddenly is everyone expected to hop-to now that Hamlet has decided it's a good issue to exploit?
Second problem: Obama is not the first candidate to address this matter. Newt Gingrich was.
So is Obama racist for failing to match Gingrich's alacrity?
8. Fantasy is a very popular genre of fiction. Fantasy is often used to explore real-world problems, but in fantasy trappings. Why is this attractive? Perhaps because the real-world problems, with real-world details, are so unattractive that many people can only be induced to engage with the subject matter if it has a certain amount of distancing from real-world details. If it's fuzzed up by fantasy. Spoonfull of sugar and all that.
The actual real-world facts is that blacks commit crimes at greatly higher rates than whites, and that blacks specifically victimize whites at far higher rates than whites victimize blacks.
And yet the media doesn't ever wish to discuss that -- it's too real, it hurts too much. It offends people.
So instead we only talk about racial issues through this fantasy lens-- the fantasy lens in which white on black crime is common and some sort of national epidemic which must be addressed immediately.
In this case, if Zimmerman was too vigilant and too paranoid, it could just be because he overreacted, lethally, to the very real problem of high black crime rates.
And while we blame him, what about the actual black criminals -- not Trayvon Martin, mind you, who appears blameless, but the actual black criminals who'd been operating in Zimmerman's neighborhood and so brought this tragedy to pass?
Shall we say nothing of them?
Probably not. Because we don't have enough layers of fantasy to make that particular problem palatable and safe for polite discussion.
More at the link.
Phred
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Diploid
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Phred]
#15985849 - 03/23/12 01:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's an excerpt of the story in Phred's link that appears to be dead. It reports on the case about a month ago of two black guys attacking a white kid with gasoline and setting him on fire. There was barely a mention in the press.
Melissa Coon said her son turned from the school's stadium onto Quincy Avenue and noticed two teenagers following him. She said the teens followed her son home and attacked him outside his front door.
"And they rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open," she said. "(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, 'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy'."
The two attackers ran away, and the eighth grader put the fire out with the shirt off his back. He managed to call 911 on his own, then his father. He was taken by ambulance to Children's Mercy Hospital and spent several hours in the hospital's burn unit.
"You could smell the burned skin," said Coon. "You could smell the burned hair. It was just horrible." Her son lost some of his eyelashes, eyebrows, and some of the hair around his face was singed. Coon said she knows her son is lucky -- but also can't believe someone would do that to her child.
Coon said the incident will have a lingering affect on her family.
"My five year old came in and asked me, 'Mom, am I going to get set on fire today?'" she said. "I was in tears."
Coon said her family will move from their home and her son will not return to East High School. She said he thinks his attackers may be students there.
KMBC
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Baby_Hitler
Errorist




Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 27,660
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 2 hours, 29 minutes
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid] 2
#15986484 - 03/23/12 03:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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So since I live in a stand your ground state, i can legally kill someone by simply:
1.) Start a fight 2.) Lose the fight 3.) Shoot the guy who kicked my ass.
SWEEEEEET!
-------------------- This space for rent
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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It doesn't work that way. Have you read the law?
Meanwhile for those who live in non-Stand Your Ground states, I can attack you with a knife and you have to run from me instead meeting my attack. Once I reach you and stab you in the back as you run, then you can turn around and blow my head off... if you're still alive by that time that is. Good luck with that.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid] 1
#15986712 - 03/23/12 05:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Generally, I'd agree with you..but Zimmerman looks like a total pussy to me...I think he'd be easily frightened...not to mention the fact that he sounded like a total wimp on the 911 call as well.
I agree. This is why I commented about fear. Fear is why Zimmerman had a gun, and the magic of the gun gave Zimmerman the balls to accost a "suspicious", possible criminal --to his way of thinking. This assumption, that Zimmerman made, that a black kid in a hoodie in a gated community at night = suspicious, possible criminal ... this is nasty racial stereotyping that lead to the death of a kid who was trying to flee a guy who was stalking him. Whites who rankle at the fact that racism against blacks exists would like to remove Martin's race from the scenario. Sorry, you can't remove Martin's race as a fact and a factor any more easily than you can remove the gun from Zimmerman as a fact and a factor. Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15986829 - 03/23/12 05:48 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: It doesn't work that way. Have you read the law?
Meanwhile for those who live in non-Stand Your Ground states, I can attack you with a knife and you have to run from me instead meeting my attack. Once I reach you and stab you in the back as you run, then you can turn around and blow my head off... if you're still alive by that time that is. Good luck with that.
You're exaggerating just a bit. In those states you must flee IF possible. There is no requirement you be beaten, stabbed, shot, raped or even punched first.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Quote:
I agree. This is why I commented about fear. Fear is why Zimmerman had a gun, and the magic of the gun gave Zimmerman the balls to accost a "suspicious", possible criminal --to his way of thinking. This assumption, that Zimmerman made, that a black kid in a hoodie in a gated community at night = suspicious, possible criminal ... this is nasty racial stereotyping that lead to the death of a kid who was trying to flee a guy who was stalking him. Whites who rankle at the fact that racism against blacks exists would like to remove Martin's race from the scenario. Sorry, you can't remove Martin's race as a fact and a factor any more easily than you can remove the gun from Zimmerman as a fact and a factor. Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.
That's all well and good except for the fact that you have no evidence at all to support your racist conspiracy; just because you want it to be true as it fits your own racist views doesn't make it true. Are you going to tell me that you can even tell what race someone is in the dark of night when they have a hoodie pulled up?
Even if you could: you have no way of seeing into this guy's mind at the time this happened.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.
How did you develop your mind reading powers?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.
How did Zimmerman make it a race issue? The only people I've seen make it a race issue are the usual racebaiting punks.
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Like I said, this shit is deplorable. The shroomery really bums me out sometimes
No one is saying Zimmerman should be found instantly guilty. The handling of this has situation however has clearly been faulty.
It's just really sad that the kid couldn't even legally be armed, was approached by some guy with a gun, was shot to death and now a bunch of people are saying that we need to reserve our judgement in order to see if maybe Travyon attacked Zimmerman in a heated fury and blah blah blah. If trayvon had been illegally armed in order to protect himself from something like this everyone would immediately pronounce him a violent criminal, a gun-offender, a this and a that, a young black hoodlum, etc.
No matter what Zimmerman's defense is, this was wrong. This kid was walking home to his father's house, was accosted by some stranger with a gun and shot dead in the streets. That a person would even begin to consider someone claiming self-defense in such a case is pathetic.
It's scary to live in a country where an unarmed black teen can be approached in the streets by an armed man and killed with no witnesses around and then the overwhelming consensus given by some people is that because the killer claims self defense, despite outweighing the teen by over a hundred pounds and being the only one armed in the situation, that the case is "up in the air".
It's really just despicable.
I'm so sick and tired of armed men shooting unarmed men and teens and sometimes kids and afterwards claiming that they, the armed men who went on to become armed killers, were the ones who "feared for their life" against unarmed men.
Armed men killing unarmed men claiming they did it because they, the killers, "feared for their lives". This is epic novel type material. This is the kind of behavior people spend many years cleansing themselves of after death.
If you're not on your property and you shoot and kill an unarmed person who wasn't attempting to take your life or something similar, you've committed a crime. The day "Fearing for one's life" became a justified excuse for killing a person, an excuse that could save you from jail, justice took a sharp blow.
That such a subjective measure having such far-reaching real world consequences can even be a possibility speaks to the injustice of the criminal justice system. Any system under which it's legal to kill people if you state afterwards that you "feared for your life" is a system that's far beyond broken. It takes corrupt, negligent and apathetic individuals to keep such a system running.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15987220 - 03/23/12 07:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: Like I said, this shit is deplorable. The shroomery really bums me out sometimes
No one is saying Zimmerman should be found instantly guilty. The handling of this has situation however has clearly been faulty.
It's just really sad that the kid couldn't even legally be armed, was approached by some guy with a gun, was shot to death and now a bunch of people are saying that we need to reserve our judgement in order to see if maybe Travyon attacked Zimmerman in a heated fury and blah blah blah. If trayvon had been illegally armed in order to protect himself from something like this everyone would immediately pronounce him a violent criminal, a gun-offender, a this and a that, a young black hoodlum, etc.
No matter what Zimmerman's defense is, this was wrong. This kid was walking home to his father's house, was accosted by some stranger with a gun and shot dead in the streets. That a person would even begin to consider someone claiming self-defense in such a case is pathetic.
It's scary to live in a country where an unarmed black teen can be approached in the streets by an armed man and killed with no witnesses around and then the overwhelming consensus given by some people is that because the killer claims self defense, despite outweighing the teen by over a hundred pounds and being the only one armed in the situation, that the case is "up in the air".
It's really just despicable.
I'm so sick and tired of armed men shooting unarmed men and teens and sometimes kids and afterwards claiming that they, the armed men who went on to become armed killers, were the ones who "feared for their life" against unarmed men.
Armed men killing unarmed men claiming they did it because they, the killers, "feared for their lives". This is epic novel type material. This is the kind of behavior people spend many years cleansing themselves of after death.
If you're not on your property and you shoot and kill an unarmed person who wasn't attempting to take your life or something similar, you've committed a crime. The day "Fearing for one's life" became a justified excuse for killing a person, an excuse that could save you from jail, justice took a sharp blow.
That such a subjective measure having such far-reaching real world consequences can even be a possibility speaks to the injustice of the criminal justice system. Any system under which it's legal to kill people if you state afterwards that you "feared for your life" is a system that's far beyond broken. It takes corrupt, negligent and apathetic individuals to keep such a system running.
That is just it...you have to be afraid at the time...you can't just "say it afterward."
You're forgetting the fact that the physical evidence supported his story...tell me...do you really think that zimmerman is some kind of criminal mastermind who figured out a way to make it look like self defense?
It's a tragedy. Would it be any less of a tragedy if zimmerman were in jail?
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15987285 - 03/23/12 07:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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You must be joking.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15987356 - 03/23/12 07:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.
How did Zimmerman make it a race issue? The only people I've seen make it a race issue are the usual racebaiting punks.
Audio
Enlll believes it's unclear. I believe I clearly heard the slur while listening to the audio on a different site, that gave no indication that there even was a slur. I guess he could be saying goon instead of coon, but I don't think so. CNN did a nice remix. Check it out.
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Panfish
Stranger


Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 130
Last seen: 4 years, 28 days
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Zimmerman's lawyer just did an interview on CNN. Either way he should be disbarred for how he represented him client, he was nervous and could barely speak.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15987421 - 03/23/12 08:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm no lawyer, like Enlil, but MANSLAUGHTER at minimum seems to be the most likely charge, and he'll be convicted because he did the crime, not because he's a "mastermind"--as you know, Enlil, common criminals don't have a lot of foresight and aren't so clever.
Zappa, to answer your question, Zimmerman made it a race issue by singling out a black kid for absolutely no good reason. Setb, I have special insight into people, including you--it's a Mentat thing--I hope that answers your question.
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Edited by Not Quite Social (03/23/12 08:26 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Panfish]
#15987427 - 03/23/12 08:14 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Panfish said: Zimmerman's lawyer just did an interview on CNN. Either way he should be disbarred for how he represented him client, he was nervous and could barely speak.
Lol...that's no reason to disbar someone...a lot of lawyers can't speak...
I'm sure if he is charged and goes to trial, his lawyer will speak very well.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: I'm no lawyer, like Enlil, but MANSLAUGHTER at minimum seems to be the most likely charge, and he'll be convicted because he did the crime, not because he's a "mastermind"--as you know, Enlil, common criminals don't have a lot of foresight and aren't so clever.
Zappa, to answer your question, Zimmerman made it a race issue by singling out a black kid for absolutely no good reason. Setb, I have special insight into people, including you--I hope that answers your question.
I have no idea whether he'll be charged or if his self-defense claim would work...
But it would be fun to take this to trial....I loves me a good trial
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Panfish
Stranger


Registered: 02/13/12
Posts: 130
Last seen: 4 years, 28 days
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15987453 - 03/23/12 08:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Panfish said: Zimmerman's lawyer just did an interview on CNN. Either way he should be disbarred for how he represented him client, he was nervous and could barely speak.
Lol...that's no reason to disbar someone...a lot of lawyers can't speak...
I'm sure if he is charged and goes to trial, his lawyer will speak very well.
He will likely get better representation if/when he gets charged. The PR damage right now on his part might be irreversible.
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Kinko
Stranger



Registered: 01/07/11
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Panfish]
#15987498 - 03/23/12 08:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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you people are dilluisonal , if i was a 12 year old walking to my house and i see a truck following me around for no reason what so ever , eventually the person gets off the truck and comes to you and starts asking questions , me being a 12 year old boy would run like hell from this stranger... not because im only getting raped but possibly killed. i will tell my uncle peter north to become a neighnorhood watchmen and if people refuse to stop to his command , he by the law can shoot the person dead.. , something i can get behind.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Kinko] 1
#15987517 - 03/23/12 08:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Kinko said: you people are dilluisonal , if i was a 12 year old walking to my house and i see a truck following me around for no reason what so ever , eventually the person gets off the truck and comes to you and starts asking questions , me being a 12 year old boy would run like hell from this stranger... not because im only getting raped but possibly killed. i will tell my uncle peter north to become a neighnorhood watchmen and if people refuse to stop to his command , he by the law can shoot the person dead.. , something i can get behind.
Cool story, bro.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15987624 - 03/23/12 09:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Enlil, how dare you quote me before I'm through editing my post and inserting a clever witticism! But I share your enthusiasm. I hope they put the trial on the TV.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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You're exaggerating just a bit. In those states you must flee IF possible. There is no requirement you be beaten, stabbed, shot, raped or even punched first.
You're right. I'm exaggerating a bit for effect. But that doesn't change the main thrust of what I said that in non-Stand Your Ground states, you have to basically run from your attacker before you're allowed to fight back, and I think that's absurd.
Imagine you're with your family and someone comes at you. It's absurd to require you in that situation to run from your attacker, leaving wife and daughter behind, because the law doesn't allow you to meet force with force unless you first try to run. Law abiding citizens who have completed a gun safety and gun law course, passed a rigorous FBI background check, and been properly licensed have a right (even a duty) to meet force with force when attacked, IMO. If more of us carried weapons responsibly perhaps the violent crime rate would drop as criminals began getting picked off when they try to rob an armed person determined to defend themselves. Had I been present at the Giffords fiasco, the gunman might well have taken a bullet from me long before he managed to kill so many people. Ditto for countless nutjob attacks that happen in our country every day.
What's more, I hear a lot of arguments about the SYG law allowing people to commit murder when no one is looking, then claim self-defense and walk. It's a fair critique. But no one uses that same critique against the Castle Doctrine which allows you to summarily kill anyone who breaks into your home (your castle). Yet the same critique of the SYG law also applies to the Castle Doctrine in that I could invite the cable guy into the house, then shoot him dead, tell the police he broke in, and walk free.
In fact, that rarely (never?) happens just like improper deadly force under the SYG law rarely happens. So on that alone, the critique of the SYG law rings empty to me. I, and the vast, vast majority of concealed weapon permit holders act responsibly and the benefit of this far outweighs the occasional bad apple that must always occur in any sufficiently-large sample.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zappa, to answer your question, Zimmerman made it a race issue by singling out a black kid for absolutely no good reason. Setb, I have special insight into people, including you--it's a Mentat thing--I hope that answers your question.
Your mind reading abilities are astounding.
How else could you possibly know he singled out the kid because he was black?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15988790 - 03/24/12 05:36 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You're exaggerating just a bit. In those states you must flee IF possible. There is no requirement you be beaten, stabbed, shot, raped or even punched first.
You're right. I'm exaggerating a bit for effect. But that doesn't change the main thrust of what I said that in non-Stand Your Ground states, you have to basically run from your attacker before you're allowed to fight back, and I think that's absurd.
Imagine you're with your family and someone comes at you. It's absurd to require you in that situation to run from your attacker, leaving wife and daughter behind, because the law doesn't allow you to meet force with force unless you first try to run. Law abiding citizens who have completed a gun safety and gun law course, passed a rigorous FBI background check, and been properly licensed have a right (even a duty) to meet force with force when attacked, IMO. If more of us carried weapons responsibly perhaps the violent crime rate would drop as criminals began getting picked off when they try to rob an armed person determined to defend themselves. Had I been present at the Giffords fiasco, the gunman might well have taken a bullet from me long before he managed to kill so many people. Ditto for countless nutjob attacks that happen in our country every day.
What's more, I hear a lot of arguments about the SYG law allowing people to commit murder when no one is looking, then claim self-defense and walk. It's a fair critique. But no one uses that same critique against the Castle Doctrine which allows you to summarily kill anyone who breaks into your home (your castle). Yet the same critique of the SYG law also applies to the Castle Doctrine in that I could invite the cable guy into the house, then shoot him dead, tell the police he broke in, and walk free.
In fact, that rarely (never?) happens just like improper deadly force under the SYG law rarely happens. So on that alone, the critique of the SYG law rings empty to me. I, and the vast, vast majority of concealed weapon permit holders act responsibly and the benefit of this far outweighs the occasional bad apple that must always occur in any sufficiently-large sample.
Your right, it doesn't change the thrust. I have a carry permit (have had it for many years) and agree with your positions here.
I just feel that when debating the issues, it should be done without the exaggerating. Your point would be no less valid with a more accurate description of what the law requires. Far too many people (sadly) have the tendency to believe what they read on the internet.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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I didn't read anyone's mind. I didn't say "because". I stated facts about which you are so uncomfortable (there I go, mind reading again) you can't acknowledge them: Trayvon Martin was black. Trayvon Martin was, in fact, singled out by Zimmerman as a suspicious, potentially criminal person. These are facts. Your question (not my comment) frames Martin's race in terms Zimmerman's motivation--you only wrap it that way in order to flame it, a la Mr. Strawman. I did not make that leap, you did. See:
Quote:
How else could you possibly know he singled out the kid because he was black?
To quote the Strawman, "Because, because, because, because, because ...."
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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The two don't necessarily go together, and you full well know it.
You have no way of knowing that race factored into it.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Quote:
The two don't necessarily go together, and you full well know it.
Of course they necessarily "go together"--in fact, they're closely associated in this case. It's not like Zimmerman thought a white kid was suspicious and, across town, there happened to be a black kid walking home and talking to his girlfriend on his cell. You see how averse you are to appreciating that race was both a fact and a factor? Btw, per 911, Zimmerman identified Trayvon Martin as both black and suspicious.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
The two don't necessarily go together, and you full well know it.
Of course they necessarily "go together"--in fact, they're closely associated in this case. It's not like Zimmerman thought a white kid was suspicious and, across town, there happened to be a black kid walking home and talking to his girlfriend on his cell. You see how averse you are to appreciating that race was both a fact and a factor? Btw, per 911, Zimmerman identified Trayvon Martin as both black and suspicious.
Exactly...if he thought that any black man was suspicious, why would he need to use both terms? Wouldn't that be redundant?
If Martin had been White, Zimmerman might have done the exact same thing...the only difference would have been he would have said "white and supsicious."
We simply do not know if race factored into it.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15989023 - 03/24/12 08:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: That's true...there's no constitutional right to self-defense...States can define the right and limit it however they want... They could even abolish it altogether if they wanted...
It may not be explicitly spelled out in the constitution, but the right to self defense goes back to the earliest roots of common law. It's so enshrined in common law tradition, that there is no need to put it in the constitution. The right to keep and bear arms was included, however, in an attempt by the founders to ensure that this right would remain in practical effect.
In the late 1800s, the supreme court issued a series of decisions re-affirming the fundamental right to self defense (going so far as to uphold the right to resist attack by law enforcement officers--something that no state has ever written into law).
More recently, the supreme court recognized the connection between the second amendment and the innate right to self-defense in the dicta of the Heller and McDonald decisions.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Zappa, to answer your question, Zimmerman made it a race issue by singling out a black kid for absolutely no good reason.
How do you know that?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
The two don't necessarily go together, and you full well know it.
Of course they necessarily "go together"--in fact, they're closely associated in this case. It's not like Zimmerman thought a white kid was suspicious and, across town, there happened to be a black kid walking home and talking to his girlfriend on his cell. You see how averse you are to appreciating that race was both a fact and a factor? Btw, per 911, Zimmerman identified Trayvon Martin as both black and suspicious.
some people are black and suspicious. Some people are white and suspicious. Some people, like Zimmerman, are Hispanic and suspicious. Or French and suspicious or Albanian and suspicious. "Black" is a description and the use of that particular descriptor is not per se racist. Do you what is suspicious to me? That you never hear of anybody getting charged with a hate crime for killing a white man.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
The two don't necessarily go together, and you full well know it.
Of course they necessarily "go together"--in fact, they're closely associated in this case. It's not like Zimmerman thought a white kid was suspicious and, across town, there happened to be a black kid walking home and talking to his girlfriend on his cell. You see how averse you are to appreciating that race was both a fact and a factor? Btw, per 911, Zimmerman identified Trayvon Martin as both black and suspicious.
I'm not adverse to facts.
You've shown he was black. You've shown he was shot.
What you have not done is shown he was shot because he was black.
Edit: Well, actually you haven't shown jack-shit except a willingness to leap to conclusions.
Pretty sad.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/24/12 08:53 AM)
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Humility
Working on it



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IN contrast to Trayvon's shooting, here we have a black man shooting a white man ON VIDEO AT A POLICE STATION where the white man comes up to him aggressively and this guy was charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER by the police and SUMMARILY taken in to custody.
http://thecabin.net/news/local/2010-07-15/police-say-cortez-waller-shot-christopher-childress#.T23gztWA9WY
http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story/Waller-found-not-guilty/dalJWO1BKk-HpcWLFtt1rg.cspx
No question as to whether or not he intended to kill the guy, no question as to whether or not it was self defense. Black man IMMEDIATELY charged with MURDER after he FLEES to a police station and IMMEDIATELY runs inside and surrenders himself claiming self defense.
You all make me sick.
Note how the police come into the entrance and say "get down on the ground" and he begins to do so and the one officer comes over and grabs his head/neck and shoves it to the floor.
Note how when they lift him up and escort him over to the right, how roughly it's done and how his body is jerked around.
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Edited by Humility (03/24/12 09:02 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15989138 - 03/24/12 09:01 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: You all make me sick.
So go elsewhere. We're not here to satisfy your hatred.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15989144 - 03/24/12 09:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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So how is this relevant? It is a completely different case in a completely different area.
I'm sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder about white people and police. Not every case is racial though and not every white person or cop are racists .
Edited by setb (03/24/12 09:17 AM)
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb] 1
#15989146 - 03/24/12 09:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Relative "justice" in murder cases....
You make yourself look more ridiculous as you go along.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
#15989149 - 03/24/12 09:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Except he's correct.
In Humility's world... being correct = looking ridiculous?
Huh.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15989172 - 03/24/12 09:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
If Martin had been White, Zimmerman might have done the exact same thing...the only difference would have been he would have said "white and supsicious."
We simply do not know if race factored into it.
I will disagree with you here, Enlil. We know race was a factor. Zimmerman provided no reason --none, nothing-- for considering Martin "suspicious", and Zimmerman noted Martin's race, "black". Finding a black person suspicious for no reason is not a free floating phenomenon existing outside of a real world context, untethered to history and culture--nope, finding a black male "suspicious" for no reason in this country has a context, American history and the resultant, ongoing (albeit it changing in form and intensity) cultural legacy: racism. Therefore race was certainly a factor; the question becomes, how do we understand and address that factor. Some white (tell me you're not-Ha!) commenters here would deny it. Thousands of back Floridians, and the majority of African Americans would confront it. Why is that? Why does the vast majority of African Americans find the way in which race factors into this story appalling? Are they so stupid they can't see that race is actually not an issue, as some here believe? Based on the real world context of this shooting, I think the black community is responding very reasonably.
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Humility
Working on it



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I've already provided all the evidence I need to. Anyone looking at this objectively has to ask questions as to the disparity of police handling of these cases. The fact that these events didn't happen in the same geographic locality is irrelevant. The fact that these cases are different is irrelevant. Every case will be different, every murder will take place in a different location. Every police response will be by different groups of men and women. What remains are the patterns of behavior. This is what is relevant.
I could provide dozens of more examples. I guess because you all live in a world where it doesn't touch you, and in general you don't really care, that you trick yourselves into believing that things aren't how they are.
You can read and see otherwise though, so whatever. Murder is serious business. One guy clearly behaved in a fashion that showed he was trying to defend himself and is on video doing so and was roughed up and held on murder charges while another was let go that very night after stalking and killing a kid and then claiming self defense when the kid had a bag of skittles and a soft drink beverage.
Like I said, this soft of behavior is pathetic. Society and history will look back on you like we look back on the Germans of the 30s or the racists and misogynists of the 50s and 60s.
Make your bed. Your children, grandchildren, and history will judge you accordingly.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
If Martin had been White, Zimmerman might have done the exact same thing...the only difference would have been he would have said "white and supsicious."
We simply do not know if race factored into it.
I will disagree with you here, Enlil. We know race was a factor. Zimmerman provided no reason --none, nothing-- for considering Martin "suspicious", and Zimmerman noted Martin's race, "black". Finding a black person suspicious for no reason is not a free floating phenomenon existing outside of a real world context, untethered to history and culture--nope, finding a black male "suspicious" for no reason in this country has a context, American history and the resultant, ongoing (albeit it changing in form and intensity) cultural legacy: racism. Therefore race was certainly a factor; the question becomes, how do we understand and address that factor. Some white (tell me you're not-Ha!) commenters here would deny it. Thousands of back Floridians, and the majority of African Americans would confront it. Why is that? Why does the vast majority of African Americans find the way in which race factors into this story appalling? Are they so stupid they can't see that race is actually not an issue, as some here believe? Based on the real world context of this shooting, I think the black community is responding very reasonably.
Maybe, just maybe, Zimmerman's lawyer told him to keep his fucking mouth shut, like any competent lawyer would do. Why do the vast majority of Negroes in America find this appalling? Because they have been sold a bunch of bullshit by professional race hucksters, including the current occupant of the Oval Office. "If I had a son he would look like Trayvon". I've seen pictures of Trayvon and Obama and the only thing they have in common is the hue of their skin. When a white kid gets killed by Negro thugs for his I-pad I don't think he necessarily looks like I would expect my progeny to look.
Based on the information currently available they are reacting like any racist group would, with prejudice and ignorance.
Has anybody here ever previously seen or heard the phrase "White Hispanic"? Why does the press create this strange distinction in only this case?
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Btw, per 911, Zimmerman identified Trayvon Martin as both black and suspicious.
He was describing what he saw. How else should he have described Martin? Skittles-toting and suspicious? He also described Martin as wearing a hoodie? Does that make him prejudiced against hoodie wearers too? C'mon now.
Zimmerman was a habitual 911 caller. I would wager that there are other 911 calls from him where he described the person he found suspicious as white and suspicious, and others as Hispanic and suspicious, and skinny and suspicious, tall and suspicious, long-haired and suspicious, and countless other adjectives depending on what he saw and not on what race he didn't like.
Once again, you guys are putting things together that may OR MAY NOT go together. Zimmerman may have had racist motivations, but from where I sit that's not at all clear.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility] 1
#15989220 - 03/24/12 09:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said: I've already provided all the evidence I need to. Anyone looking at this objectively has to ask questions as to the disparity of police handling of these cases. The fact that these events didn't happen in the same geographic locality is irrelevant. The fact that these cases are different is irrelevant. Every case will be different, every murder will take place in a different location. Every police response will be by different groups of men and women. What remains are the patterns of behavior. This is what is relevant.
I could provide dozens of more examples. I guess because you all live in a world where it doesn't touch you, and in general you don't really care, that you trick yourselves into believing that things aren't how they are.
You can read and see otherwise though, so whatever. Murder is serious business. One guy clearly behaved in a fashion that showed he was trying to defend himself and is on video doing so and was roughed up and held on murder charges while another was let go that very night after stalking and killing a kid and then claiming self defense when the kid had a bag of skittles and a soft drink beverage.
Like I said, this soft of behavior is pathetic. Society and history will look back on you like we look back on the Germans of the 30s or the racists and misogynists of the 50s and 60s.
Make your bed. Your children, grandchildren, and history will judge you accordingly.
I'll be very comfortable being judged as someone who looked at facts, rather than as someone who lumps all people from the same groups as the same type of people.
You know... like bigots or racists.
Unless you can show the same cops (or even the same department) treating differently those from different ethnic groups... you are no different from those you condemn.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15989224 - 03/24/12 09:44 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Diploid,
Whatever other kind of suspicious person you speculate he may have reported, it turns out he killed a black kid who wasn't suspicious at all. That matters.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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I guess those Hispanics really hate Negroes.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Diploid,
Whatever other kind of suspicious person you speculate he may have reported, it turns out he killed a black kid who wasn't suspicious at all. That matters.
His color does not matter, unless and until it's proven to be the reason for the shooting.
In the meantime, you're talking out your ass.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15989246 - 03/24/12 09:52 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I guess those Hispanics really hate Negroes.
Nah. They just hate Skittles.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Zappa,
If I were his lawyer I'd tell him to run, run, run and never be heard from again, or steel himself to the idea of doing 10 years in hell. If I were him I'd run while I had the chance.
P.S. More white people get killed by both black and white assailants because, it turns out, there's a far larger pool of available white victims.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility] 2
#15989251 - 03/24/12 09:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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IN contrast to Trayvon's shooting, here we have a black man shooting a white man ON VIDEO AT A POLICE STATION where the white man comes up to him aggressively and this guy was charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER by the police and SUMMARILY taken in to custody.
Man, you are just such a god damned walking pile of bias, it's depressing.
First off, that video you linked is of an event in Arkansas. ARKANSAS!
Arkansas does not have a SYG law, so OF COURSE the guy had to be arrested and tried. That's the whole god damned point. Any shooting there has to be arrested and tried to determine if it is self defense or not because there is a prima facie case by definition.
It had nothing to do with the race of the shooter. It had to do with the laws of ARKANSAS which are different than the laws in Florida. If that had happened in Florida, the black shooter would have been taken into custody long enough to view the video of the shooting, and he would have been home by dinner time because under SYG, he was clearly within his rights.
And point of fact, the black shooter in your video was aquited after shooting dead his white attacker.
I don't deny that there is racial bias in this country. I don't deny that racial bias MAY have been involved in the Martin case. But I do deny that racial bias has been demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt by the currently-available evidence, your witch hunt mentality notwithstanding.
JeeeZUS!
Your children, grandchildren, and history will judge you accordingly
If things go your way, they'll all be in jail based on emotion instead of facts.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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As you fellers know, racism isn't just about hate. Profiling and preferences leap to mind.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zappa,
If I were his lawyer I'd tell him to run, run, run and never be heard from again, or steel himself to the idea of doing 10 years in hell. If I were him I'd run while I had the chance.
P.S. More white people get killed by both black and white assailants because, it turns out, there's a far larger pool of available white victims.
So what? We're talking about a Hispanic. If, as his lawyer, you told him to flee you would be disbarred.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: As you fellers know, racism isn't just about hate. Profiling and preferences leap to mind.
None of which you have demonstrated.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
Sonner also said that Zimmerman and his wife in the past have served as mentors to African-American youth. "He and his wife were mentors to a single mother with two, a 14-year-old son and a 13-year-old daughter. They were mentors to them, took them every couple weeks. What that program included was every other week, going for two or three hours going to the mall, to the science center, going to lunch, playing basketball, doing those types of things."
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57403854/zimmerman-lawyer-no-racial-issue-with-client/
Yeah... what a hater racist pig.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
Loc: The Antipodes
Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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"In other news, a young white blonde girl was killed today after not playing up to the righteous ego of a gun toting black Muslim in a car... more at 7..."

The entire world is watching this, and no matter how many guns and bombs you have... we think it looks pretty stupid.
Just, laik, sayin, yall.
Did I mention my 9mm? Cos, laik, guns n sheeyit...
-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
Loc: The Antipodes
Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin] 1
#15989354 - 03/24/12 10:31 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Neighbourhood Watch "Captain", heh. What kind of a complete n utter wanker would actually operate under such a title?
I wish I lived in a paramilitary hellhole with a freakish talent for coming off as really, really weird.
Oh wait, no I don't.
seriously fellas, a story like that even looks unusual in South Africa these days....
"OH MY GAWD!! IT'S COMIN' RAIGHT FER US!!!"

-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
Edited by Quinkin (03/24/12 10:37 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989357 - 03/24/12 10:34 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Quinkin said: we think it looks pretty stupid.
Yup. A race to judgement looks stupid no matter where.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
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Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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eh... sometimes.
Othertimes it looks genuinely, headscratchingly stupid. Easily an 8 on a scale of 1 to WTF.
In just about any other nation on earth "white man calls black boy to explain his reason for being here, with a pistol in his pants" sounds really, really, almost especially stupid.
Not to slag all of america, or americans. But a certain, very vocal and overly armed section of that community look like complete dickheads to the other 100+ nations.
It's not us being judgemental, it's some people in that country being fucked in the head, pure n simple.
Remember how Apartheid seemed stupid? Rodney King? Strange fruit, indeed?
Same thing. Same culture. Trust me, noone outside of the states even if we appreciate a lot of what the US has achieved, thinks too much of the Zimmermans of the world.
Some jumped up fucking nobody with a gun...ah-yup... ain't noone never in that there mindset ain't like never dun a thang wrong to noone, never 
It all looks really basic and nasty from the outside looking in.
Better bomb us, eh? Put us on a list! Can I be played be Keifer Sutherland? O pleez Massa, I be shine dem shooz reeeeeel gud!
The other 6 and something billion people on earth see it for what it is... a fundaMENTAL belief of certain people that a white man with a gun has all the rights in the world... and they don't.
The accused looks really, really, REALLY fuckin backwards in just about every other nation on earth right now.
If people are cool with that, fine. But I'd feel like a spastic redneck to even come close to supporting this kind of behaviour.
-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Zappa said,
Quote:
When a white kid gets killed by Negro thugs for his I-pad I don't think he necessarily looks like I would expect my progeny to look.
So I said,
Quote:
More white people get killed by both black and white assailants because, it turns out, there's a far larger pool of available white victims.
Then you said,
Quote:
So what? We're talking about a Hispanic.
To which I say,
You brought up a scenario involving "a white kid and Negro thugs", hence my reply.
You're all over the place with your focus and syntax, but I suspect, in your heart, you ache for the senseless loss of a child, of Trayvon Martin, and your heart goes out to his parents and family. I suspect this despite your disrespectful rhetorical posturing.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989453 - 03/24/12 11:00 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Quinkin said: But I'd feel like a spastic redneck to even come close to supporting this kind of behaviour.
No-one here is.
Do they look kindly on a race to judgement where you are? Because that's the impression you're leaving.
Many people laugh at that type of behavior.
Quote:
ah-yup... ain't noone never in that there mindset ain't like never dun a thang wrong to noone, never
Quote:
O pleez Massa, I be shine dem shooz reeeeeel gud!
If people judged everyone from where-ever you are by those two sentences, people would assume they were inbred morons
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Quote:
In just about any other nation on earth "white man calls black boy to explain his reason for being here, with a pistol in his pants" sounds really, really, almost especially stupid.
I smiled at this. Yep, I agree. But don't you know, Quinkin, that it's wrong around here to have an opinion that isn't substantiated by links to other people's opinions? It won't be long before a moderator drops in and repeatedly insists you "back up your claims". Even if you do provide links, he'll insist you didn't. Then other, like minded individuals, will rally around the authority of the moderator. --Anyway, that's how it works. Good luck!
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Zappa said,
Quote:
When a white kid gets killed by Negro thugs for his I-pad I don't think he necessarily looks like I would expect my progeny to look.
So I said,
Quote:
More white people get killed by both black and white assailants because, it turns out, there's a far larger pool of available white victims.
Then you said,
Quote:
So what? We're talking about a Hispanic.
To which I say,
You brought up a scenario involving "a white kid and Negro thugs", hence my reply.
Did you understand the point of that whole paragraph or did you just look for key words? The point was that I don't thnk every white person looks like me. Obama, apparently, thinks that every black person looks like him. Quote:
You're all over the place with your focus and syntax, but I suspect, in your heart, you ache for the senseless loss of a child, of Trayvon Martin, and your heart goes out to his parents and family. I suspect this despite your disrespectful rhetorical posturing.
It disgusts me that race baiting pimps are trying to capitalize on the death of a young man. I also have no fucking idea what the rather large young man did. Neither do you.
I wonder if they would have referred to Zimmerman as a "white Hispanic" if his last name was Rodriguez. You need to look a little closer at just where the racism here lies. So far Zimmerman, a Hispanic, has not been proven a racist at all. Do you think that every time a young black man gets shot by a Hispanic it is racially motivated? Here in NY it's usually just a turf war or over some slag.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said:
Quote:
In just about any other nation on earth "white man calls black boy to explain his reason for being here, with a pistol in his pants" sounds really, really, almost especially stupid.
I smiled at this. Yep, I agree. But don't you know, Quinkin, that it's wrong around here to have an opinion that isn't substantiated by links to other people's opinions? It won't be long before a moderator drops in and repeatedly insists you "back up your claims". Even if you do provide links, he'll insist you didn't. Then other, like minded individuals, will rally around the authority of the moderator. --Anyway, that's how it works. Good luck!
He made a claim about what the emasculated eunuchs where he lives think. I'll take him at his word. Not because it is eminently believable but because I don't give two shits what they think.
By the way, he still doesn't know that Zimmerman is Hispanic. He probably thinks he's a Jew. Another reason why I don't give a fuck what they think. Their information stream is broken.
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
Loc: The Antipodes
Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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Every other "white, christian, western" nation looks on this kind of thinking with disgust.
If anyone accosted my child on the street n asked her who what where when and why, with a gun... and then murdered her little self...Jeebus.
Pretty good chance I'd plant em in a state forest, or a drum full of acid.
I don't give a spare rotten shit what honourary I mean honorary armchair warrior title they hold... they'd be dingo snacks.
I should probably start stockpiling arms in case it happens, then let all that gun oil go to my head... go out hunting n kill a child before "he can get me first".
What a complete failure of a man. I have compost worms, hay-ell,y'all... I have frozen meat of better character than Zimmerman.
Hope the more pro murder people don't mind when someone murders your children for walking home. Because someone gave em a title, n a gun. What else should the power over life or death require?
I feel genuinely awful for real, solid, caring Americans... and there are hundreds of millions of them. And I hope one day redneck gun nut racist people can be locked in a hole and fed their own shit until they die.
Then we can compost their remains and feed the needy on their remains 
Wtf.. one civvy stops another on a path n shoots em for the wrong answers... what the hell is wrong with some people?
I can just imagine some loser with a room full of weapons, uniforms n rations just waiting for a reason to use it all... what a truly miserable son of a bitch. Thinkin he lives in the Wild West? has he or anyone actually looked into the murder rated of the american wild west? They were actually really, really low overall... but let's let Hollywood rot our fuckin brains...
Mind if I kill your kids for answers I don't like? Being their own heritage on my sacred footpath? The best bit is where the light dies in their eyes for not being ME... hah, stupid little dying children...what could be better 
Next time I find an American on my street, I think I better murder em.
Noone will mind, will they?
-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
Loc: The Antipodes
Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989544 - 03/24/12 11:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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No Zappa, we have plenty of balls. And guns. I have .303, as it happens. but it's not for hunting humans that affect my property values, matie.
A real man belives in justice, appropriate n fair application of power... not equates calibre with cock size.
But thanks for embarassing your culture with yet more firearm fetishism, that really helps your cause
Wow, a big gun! must be a big man, eh? Wow.
so... sorry.. just to be clear...who actually believes, deep down, that hunting ethnic people for sport is not only okay but recommended?
go on, hands up, since it's all actually okay n all...
my favourite point of american culture is in My Name Is Earl, when Joy rants about "don'chew judge meay!"... because some of you are so literally fuckin backwards you can retreat into a hunter's blind of "don;t you judge me!"... what the hell... either the rest of the civil world is wrong, or you alone are entirely correct... care to place a bet?
weird sicko gun nut cunts... a shame to our species, and a deplorable joke on the white race.
-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989558 - 03/24/12 11:26 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Did you understand the point of that whole paragraph or did you just look for key words? The point was ....
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the point was Obama is a Negro. That's always your point. Often I choose to ignore it.
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Quinkin
Untitled


Registered: 01/28/12
Posts: 90
Loc: The Antipodes
Last seen: 11 years, 14 hours
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989566 - 03/24/12 11:28 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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you're either pro - hunting brown people, or you're not. Most of us aren't, regardless of nation.
But "stick to your guns" n be "unwhuppable!"... it's been workin real well for you so far...
coughcough thirteen trillion in debt and an african president cough cough.

redneck gun freaks...can never realise a gun is just a tool, and so are they...
Nevermind. the rest of the planet understands it's your short fat build n tiny nuts that lead you to adhere to such beliefs 
we'd feel sorry for you, but it wouldn't do any good...
-------------------- "Has anyone seen Uncle Sid? Or Lucy? Anyone?" Ever changing range of ethically gathered and produced seeds, cuttings and prints of herbs, medicinals, fruit, veg and cactus. Sale and trade by arrangement. PM's welcome
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Quinkin]
#15989598 - 03/24/12 11:36 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just fyi:
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Quote:
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.
And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.
But one man's testimony could be key for the police.
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.
Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.
Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.
There seems to be a witness that is corroborating his story. This seems pretty open and shut to me.
Of course little things like "witnesses" and "evidence" won't stop the media smear machine nor will it stop all the black racists/guilty feeling white liberals- so carry on.
edit: Grass stains on his back? I didn't know this; I bet this young man doubled back and jumped this guy, knocked him to the ground, and started stomping on him. That's what this looks like to me. I also bet when they do forensics it will show the bullets entered this young man's body at an angle. This would indicate Zimmerman was on his back and this young man was standing above him.
Edited by setb (03/24/12 11:53 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15989646 - 03/24/12 11:51 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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There seems to be a witness that is corroborating his story.
Zimmerman's arrest report (which I linked ^^^ up there) also has a statement that Zimmerman's back was wet and had grass on it. That reads like maybe Martin on top of Zimmerman when the gun went off.
Add to that the cop reported Zimmerman was bleeding from the nose and back of the head. SOMEONE or something hit Zimmerman to make him bleed.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15989658 - 03/24/12 11:54 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Setb,
This scenario has been addressed previously in this thread:
Baby_Hitler said,
Quote:
So since I live in a stand your ground state, i can legally kill someone by simply:
1.) Start a fight 2.) Lose the fight 3.) Shoot the guy who kicked my ass.
SWEEEEEET!
You're good with that?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15989659 - 03/24/12 11:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Rushes to judgment by uninformed Euroweenies have never impressed me much. Ignorance has never stopped them from opining, though. The best we can do is ignore them and consign them to the dust bin of history. I note he has nothing to say about this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118872/Mohammed-Merah-dead-Toulouse-Al-Qaeda-fanatic-sick-video-executing-victims.html
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Diploid said,
Quote:
when the gun went off
No one's responsible ... the gun did it.
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15989677 - 03/24/12 11:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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If someone jumped me and started stomping on me so viciously I would shoot them too. You can easily kill someone by stomping on their head and I would say that doing so crosses the line from roughing someone up to trying to kill them.
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Beefcakemighty
Carpetshark



Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 1,601
Loc: Midgar
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Diploid said,
Quote:
when the gun went off
No one's responsible ... the gun did it.
Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
-------------------- "Hospitality is my house, That a traveler shall share, Warm meal on a hearth And my last horn of mead"
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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No one's responsible ... the gun did it.
Is that what I said? Are you really that hard up for an argument that you're making up transparent bullshit and putting words in my mouth?
Throughout this entire thread I've been very careful not to take either side, and for my trouble, this is the bullshit disrespect I'm given?
It's why I recently declined to continue moderating this forum and stopped participating in it long ago. Fuck you.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Not Quite Social said: Diploid said,
Quote:
when the gun went off
No one's responsible ... the gun did it.
Maybe the punk kicked it. Keep spinning, you're like a merry-go-round at this point. Did it not ever occur to any of the knee jerk condemners that there was probably a damn good reason why the police didn't immediately arrest the shooter? All these illegal drug users whining that police didn't make an arrest in spite of zero evidence is kind of........well, confusing.
--------------------
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15989727 - 03/24/12 12:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whoa, Diploid,
I apologize.
I've noticed that your opinions have been very reasonable, if slightly different from mine. I was kidding, too much I guess. Sorry.
--------------------
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15989740 - 03/24/12 12:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: No one's responsible ... the gun did it.
Is that what I said? Are you really that hard up for an argument that you're making up transparent bullshit and putting words in my mouth?
Throughout this entire thread I've been very careful not to take either side, and for my trouble, this is the bullshit disrespect I'm given?
It's why I recently declined to continue moderating this forum and stooped participating in it long ago. Fuck you.
It's what he does. It's been pointed out to him on several occasions, yet the only time he's ever back-tracked is... with a Mod. Huh.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15989741 - 03/24/12 12:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
Enlil said: That's true...there's no constitutional right to self-defense...States can define the right and limit it however they want... They could even abolish it altogether if they wanted...
It may not be explicitly spelled out in the constitution, but the right to self defense goes back to the earliest roots of common law. It's so enshrined in common law tradition, that there is no need to put it in the constitution. The right to keep and bear arms was included, however, in an attempt by the founders to ensure that this right would remain in practical effect.
In the late 1800s, the supreme court issued a series of decisions re-affirming the fundamental right to self defense (going so far as to uphold the right to resist attack by law enforcement officers--something that no state has ever written into law).
More recently, the supreme court recognized the connection between the second amendment and the innate right to self-defense in the dicta of the Heller and McDonald decisions.
The early common law cases of which you speak were cases in federal court...they weren't constitutionally based and wouldn't, in any way, require that a state recognize self-defense if they chose not to. As of yet, no fundamental right to self-defense has been identified by the Supreme Court.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15989761 - 03/24/12 12:24 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Obligatory.
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Not Quite Social


Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,418
Loc: Midwest
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15989765 - 03/24/12 12:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Luvdemshrooms, I apologized to Diploid because his posts have been thoughtful and respectful, and I didn't intend to insult him. It has nothing to do with his mod status. You ought to know by now I don't respect folks around here on that basis.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15989797 - 03/24/12 12:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
setb said: Just fyi:
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Quote:
Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.
And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.
But one man's testimony could be key for the police.
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.
Zimmerman says the shooting was self defense. According to information released on the Sanford city website, Zimmerman said he was going back to his SUV when he was attacked by the teen.
Sanford police say Zimmerman was bloody in his face and head, and the back of his shirt was wet and had grass stains, indicating a struggle took place before the shooting.
There seems to be a witness that is corroborating his story. This seems pretty open and shut to me.
Of course little things like "witnesses" and "evidence" won't stop the media smear machine nor will it stop all the black racists/guilty feeling white liberals- so carry on.
edit: Grass stains on his back? I didn't know this; I bet this young man doubled back and jumped this guy, knocked him to the ground, and started stomping on him. That's what this looks like to me. I also bet when they do forensics it will show the bullets entered this young man's body at an angle. This would indicate Zimmerman was on his back and this young man was standing above him.
Wow that's a really interesting development in the story. It's also bad news for the lynch mob.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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New Black Panthers offer $10,000 bounty for capture of George Zimmerman
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324 ,0,1231157.story
Did someone forget to tell these vigilantes that KIDNAPPING IS ILLEGAL?
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schnauzer
Skeptic


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 16
Loc: The Woods, U.S.A.
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#15989828 - 03/24/12 12:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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To even things out in the state of FL, they are going to have to allow minors to apply for concealed weapon permits so this kind of thing doesn't happen in the future. Every kid in the state is going to have to be allowed to take the gun to school so they are safe on the way to and from home. The bottom line in this case is a gun was used by a dipshit who wishes he was a cop, when a cop would have used a tazer to subdue an unruly teen. This is assuming Trayvon was acting unruly. I suspect Trayvon was concerned he was about to lose his anal virginity at the hands of the crazy neighborhood watch "captain." I don't give a shit what color either one of these characters happens to be. The issue is an adult put himself into a situation where he would either provoke a child, or be perceived as a serious threat to that child, and the outcome is a dead child.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15989842 - 03/24/12 12:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Have you been watching the news? They are trying to go after the gun laws in Florida because of this case. It's shit like this that they exploit to sway people's emotions and get them to agree with them. It doesn't matter if guns are illegal because criminals will ALWAYS GET them. Want to know why? BECAUSE CRIMINALS DON'T FOLLOW THE LAW. They are trying to disarm average citizens because they know guns are the great equalizer. Look at the homicide rates in the states with the most armed citizens. It's the lowest in the country.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15989870 - 03/24/12 12:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
one man's testimony could be key for the police.
"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.
Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.
The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.
His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.
"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15989883 - 03/24/12 12:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Innocent little boy.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15989888 - 03/24/12 12:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nullface said: Have you been watching the news? They are trying to go after the gun laws in Florida because of this case.
Bingo.
--------------------
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
psychotropicwhale said: Wow that's a really interesting development in the story. It's also bad news for the lynch mob.
Not at all. They'll just ignore it.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15989900 - 03/24/12 12:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Nullface said: Have you been watching the news? They are trying to go after the gun laws in Florida because of this case.
Bingo.
The Stand Your Ground law is about as American as you can get. I will use it myself when the time comes and have no remorse about the outcome.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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True, but I would guess that it's bad news for them getting what they want, Zimmerman tried for murder.
Also, I'm interested in finding out what Trayvon was suspended from school for. I wonder if we'll ever find out from a legitimate source.
--------------------
Edited by psychotropicwhale (03/24/12 01:05 PM)
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15989925 - 03/24/12 01:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm watching on TV and seeing the rallies of blacks in New York chant and the Black Panthers condoning the kidnapping of a non-black for money. They say it's not race based yet the fact that Zimmerman is "white" and Trayvon is black is the whole reason this case exploded. There's only one thing that comes to mind when I see these events unfold. William Pierce warned us of these times. If they are going to send militants to kidnap this guy how long until they start another 1992 LA Riot? Grab your guns Zimmerman and stand your ground.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Also, I'm interested in finding out what Trayvon was suspended from school for.
Nothing serious. Excessive tardiness. [Edit: it was serious after all, drugs, which the parents tried to cover up, and possession of stolen jewelry and burglary tools.]
Also, these are exerts from Nullface's broken link:
--
SANFORD — Members of the New Black Panther Party are offering a $10,000 reward for the "capture" of George Zimmerman, leader Mikhail Muhammad announced during a protest in Sanford today.
When asked whether he was inciting violence, Muhammad replied defiantly saying: "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."
The bounty announcement came moments after members of the group called for the mobilization of 5,000 black men to capture George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin last month.
Muhammad said members of his group would search for Zimmerman themselves in Maitland and Jacksonville -- where the 28-year old worked before the shooting, employees there told the Orlando Sentinel. But he declined to say when they will begin their hunt.
The group called for Zimmerman's arrest and threatened to find and detain him if police were not willing to do so. But group members didn't call for the mobilization of thousands until Saturday.
Muhammed led the group in chanting "Justice for Trayvon!" and "Black Power!"
"If the government won't do the job, we'll do it," Muhammad said, leading his group of eight party members in chants like "freedom or death" and "justice for Trayvon" while making the iconic gesture of raising their fists into the air.
They accused newly-appointed special prosecutor Angela Corley of being an enemy of the black community.
"She has a track record of sending innocent young black men and women to prison," he said.
The Southern Poverty Law Center says the New Black Panther Party, a black-separatist group founded in 1989, is "virulently racist and anti-Semitic," and its leaders have encouraged violence against whites, Jews and law officers.
More at Chicago Tribune
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (03/28/12 12:22 PM)
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15990375 - 03/24/12 03:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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This agrument in here is dumb.
This situation on a national scale is sacry. Glad i got my gun.
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Beefcakemighty
Carpetshark



Registered: 09/02/11
Posts: 1,601
Loc: Midgar
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
#15990483 - 03/24/12 03:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
schnauzer said: To even things out in the state of FL, they are going to have to allow minors to apply for concealed weapon permits so this kind of thing doesn't happen in the future. Every kid in the state is going to have to be allowed to take the gun to school so they are safe on the way to and from home. The bottom line in this case is a gun was used by a dipshit who wishes he was a cop, when a cop would have used a tazer to subdue an unruly teen. This is assuming Trayvon was acting unruly. I suspect Trayvon was concerned he was about to lose his anal virginity at the hands of the crazy neighborhood watch "captain." I don't give a shit what color either one of these characters happens to be. The issue is an adult put himself into a situation where he would either provoke a child, or be perceived as a serious threat to that child, and the outcome is a dead child.
Agree
-------------------- "Hospitality is my house, That a traveler shall share, Warm meal on a hearth And my last horn of mead"
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15990617 - 03/24/12 04:26 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: The early common law cases of which you speak were cases in federal court...they weren't constitutionally based and wouldn't, in any way, require that a state recognize self-defense if they chose not to. As of yet, no fundamental right to self-defense has been identified by the Supreme Court.
Where'd you go to law school, son? 
The common law tradition of a core right to self defense goes back to before there was a federal court system or even a United States. Core rights need not be recognized by a state to remain rights. The second amendment was written to ensure that people retained the right to self defense even against the state in exactly the situation in which the state stops recognizing the right of the people to self defense.
Heller and McDonald are both recent SCOTUS cases which clearly speak to a core right to self defense of which the second amendment codifies one component (the means of applying this right). McDonald was a case against the city of Chicago. The SC in ruling against Chicago affirmed that the second amendment, but also the right to self defense, cannot be infringed by any state/city/municipality. The dicta provide a lot of background on the history of the right:
Quote:
Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the an-swer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day,[15] and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 26); see also id., at ___ (slip op., at56) (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”). Explain-ing that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) (someinternal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at ___ (slip op., at 56) (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” ofself-defense); id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessen-tial self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at ___ (slip op., at 58).
Heller makes it clear that this right is “deeply rooted inthis Nation’s history and tradition.” Glucksberg, supra, at 721 (internal quotation marks omitted). Heller explored the right’s origins, noting that the 1689 English Bill of Rights explicitly protected a right to keep arms for self-defense, 554 U. S., at ___–___ (slip op., at 19–20), and that by 1765, Blackstone was able to assert that the right to keep and bear arms was “one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 20). Blackstone’s assessment was shared by the Americancolonists. As we noted in Heller, King George III’s attemptto disarm the colonists in the 1760’s and 1770’s “provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms.”16 Id., at ___ (slip op., at 21); see also L. Levy, Origins of the Bill of Rights 137–143(1999) (hereinafter Levy).
The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights.
[15]Citing Jewish, Greek, and Roman law, Blackstone wrote that if a person killed an attacker, “the slayer is in no kind of fault whatsoever, not even in the minutest degree; and is therefore to be totally acquitted and discharged, with commendation rather than blame.” 4 W. Black-stone, Commentaries on the Laws of England 182 (reprint 1992).
[16]For example, an article in the Boston Evening Post stated: “For it is certainly beyond human art and sophistry, to prove the British sub-jects, to whom the privilege of possessing arms is expressly recognized by the Bill of Rights, and, who live in a province where the law requires them to be equip’d with arms, &c. are guilty of an illegal act, in calling upon one another to be provided with them, as the law directs.” Boston Evening Post, Feb. 6, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 1768–1769, p. 61 (1936) (emphasis deleted).
...
We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amend-ment right recognized in Heller.
McDonald v. Chicago [bolding mine]
Quote:
Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background of the Second Amendment. We look to this because it has always been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the First andFourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right.
The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”
...
By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and selfpreservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence, by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme, The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886– 887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.
...
A New York article of April 1769 said that “it is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.”
...
Antislavery advocates routinely invoked the right to bear arms for self-defense. Joel Tiffany, for example, citing Blackstone’s description of the right, wrote that “the right to keep and bear arms, also implies the right to use them if necessary in self defence; without this right to use the guaranty would have hardly been worth the paper it consumed.” A Treatise on the Unconstitutionality of American Slavery 117–118 (1849); see also L. Spooner, The Unconstitutionality of Slavery 116 (1845) (right enables “personal defence”).
...
As the quotations earlier in this opinion demonstrate, the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right.
..
We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.
..
In sum, we hold that the District’s ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense.
DC v. Heller [bolding again mine]
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15990775 - 03/24/12 05:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Do you still trust the mainstream media?

Edited by Nullface (03/24/12 05:27 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15990829 - 03/24/12 05:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
Enlil said: The early common law cases of which you speak were cases in federal court...they weren't constitutionally based and wouldn't, in any way, require that a state recognize self-defense if they chose not to. As of yet, no fundamental right to self-defense has been identified by the Supreme Court.
Where'd you go to law school, son? 
The common law tradition of a core right to self defense goes back to before there was a federal court system or even a United States. Core rights need not be recognized by a state to remain rights. The second amendment was written to ensure that people retained the right to self defense even against the state in exactly the situation in which the state stops recognizing the right of the people to self defense.
Heller and McDonald are both recent SCOTUS cases which clearly speak to a core right to self defense of which the second amendment codifies one component (the means of applying this right). McDonald was a case against the city of Chicago. The SC in ruling against Chicago affirmed that the second amendment, but also the right to self defense, cannot be infringed by any state/city/municipality. The dicta provide a lot of background on the history of the right:
Quote:
Our decision in Heller points unmistakably to the an-swer. Self-defense is a basic right, recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present day,[15] and in Heller, we held that individual self-defense is “the central component” of the Second Amendment right. 554 U. S., at ___ (slip op., at 26); see also id., at ___ (slip op., at56) (stating that the “inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right”). Explain-ing that “the need for defense of self, family, and property is most acute” in the home, ibid., we found that this right applies to handguns because they are “the most preferred firearm in the nation to ‘keep’ and use for protection of one’s home and family,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) (someinternal quotation marks omitted); see also id., at ___ (slip op., at 56) (noting that handguns are “overwhelmingly chosen by American society for [the] lawful purpose” ofself-defense); id., at ___ (slip op., at 57) (“[T]he American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessen-tial self-defense weapon”). Thus, we concluded, citizens must be permitted “to use [handguns] for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.” Id., at ___ (slip op., at 58).
Heller makes it clear that this right is “deeply rooted inthis Nation’s history and tradition.” Glucksberg, supra, at 721 (internal quotation marks omitted). Heller explored the right’s origins, noting that the 1689 English Bill of Rights explicitly protected a right to keep arms for self-defense, 554 U. S., at ___–___ (slip op., at 19–20), and that by 1765, Blackstone was able to assert that the right to keep and bear arms was “one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen,” id., at ___ (slip op., at 20). Blackstone’s assessment was shared by the Americancolonists. As we noted in Heller, King George III’s attemptto disarm the colonists in the 1760’s and 1770’s “provoked polemical reactions by Americans invoking their rights as Englishmen to keep arms.”16 Id., at ___ (slip op., at 21); see also L. Levy, Origins of the Bill of Rights 137–143(1999) (hereinafter Levy).
The right to keep and bear arms was considered no less fundamental by those who drafted and ratified the Bill of Rights.
[15]Citing Jewish, Greek, and Roman law, Blackstone wrote that if a person killed an attacker, “the slayer is in no kind of fault whatsoever, not even in the minutest degree; and is therefore to be totally acquitted and discharged, with commendation rather than blame.” 4 W. Black-stone, Commentaries on the Laws of England 182 (reprint 1992).
[16]For example, an article in the Boston Evening Post stated: “For it is certainly beyond human art and sophistry, to prove the British sub-jects, to whom the privilege of possessing arms is expressly recognized by the Bill of Rights, and, who live in a province where the law requires them to be equip’d with arms, &c. are guilty of an illegal act, in calling upon one another to be provided with them, as the law directs.” Boston Evening Post, Feb. 6, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 1768–1769, p. 61 (1936) (emphasis deleted).
...
We therefore hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment incorporates the Second Amend-ment right recognized in Heller.
McDonald v. Chicago [bolding mine]
Quote:
Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation. This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background of the Second Amendment. We look to this because it has always been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the First andFourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right.
The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”
...
By the time of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental for English subjects. See Malcolm 122–134. Blackstone, whose works, we have said, “constituted the preeminent authority on English law for the founding generation,” Alden v. Maine, 527 U. S. 706, 715 (1999), cited the arms provision of the Bill of Rights as one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen. See 1 Blackstone 136, 139–140 (1765). His description of it cannot possibly be thought to tie it to militia or military service. It was, he said, “the natural right of resistance and selfpreservation,” id., at 139, and “the right of having and using arms for self-preservation and defence,” id., at 140; see also 3 id., at 2–4 (1768). Other contemporary authorities concurred. See G. Sharp, Tracts, Concerning the Ancient and Only True Legal Means of National Defence, by a Free Militia 17–18, 27 (3d ed. 1782); 2 J. de Lolme, The Rise and Progress of the English Constitution 886– 887 (1784) (A. Stephens ed. 1838); W. Blizard, Desultory Reflections on Police 59–60 (1785). Thus, the right secured in 1689 as a result of the Stuarts’ abuses was by the time of the founding understood to be an individual right protecting against both public and private violence.
...
A New York article of April 1769 said that “it is a natural right which the people have reserved to themselves, confirmed by the Bill of Rights, to keep arms for their own defence.” A Journal of the Times: Mar. 17, New York Journal, Supp. 1, Apr. 13, 1769, in Boston Under Military Rule 79 (O. Dickerson ed. 1936); see also, e.g., Shippen, Boston Gazette, Jan. 30, 1769, in 1 The Writings of Samuel Adams 299 (H. Cushing ed. 1968). They understood the right to enable individuals to defend themselves. As the most important early American edition of Blackstone’s Commentaries (by the law professor and former Antifederalist St. George Tucker) made clear in the notes to the description of the arms right, Americans understood the “right of self-preservation” as permitting a citizen to “repe[l] force by force” when “the intervention of society in his behalf, may be too late to prevent an injury.”
...
Antislavery advocates routinely invoked the right to bear arms for self-defense. Joel Tiffany, for example, citing Blackstone’s description of the right, wrote that “the right to keep and bear arms, also implies the right to use them if necessary in self defence; without this right to use the guaranty would have hardly been worth the paper it consumed.” A Treatise on the Unconstitutionality of American Slavery 117–118 (1849); see also L. Spooner, The Unconstitutionality of Slavery 116 (1845) (right enables “personal defence”).
...
As the quotations earlier in this opinion demonstrate, the inherent right of self-defense has been central to the Second Amendment right.
..
We must also address the District’s requirement (as applied to respondent’s handgun) that firearms in the home be rendered and kept inoperable at all times. This makes it impossible for citizens to use them for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.
..
In sum, we hold that the District’s ban on handgun possession in the home violates the Second Amendment, as does its prohibition against rendering any lawful firearm in the home operable for the purpose of immediate self-defense.
DC v. Heller [bolding again mine]
Lol...Dude...There was no fundamental right to free speech before incorporation, so how can you possibly argue that common law created a right to self-defense that was applicable to the states? That argument fails... Heller is a whole new deal, as you know...the 2nd amendment was never applicable to state law before...now we will see what the contours of that right are...
But the Supreme Court has still never identified a fundamental right to self-defense in a criminal case...and you know it...Dicta is not binding...
Heller and McDonald are a huge change in the tide of 2nd amendment law...no doubt...and we're likely to see more tweaking as time goes on...We probably won't ever get the SCOTUS looking into whether self-defense as an affirmative defense is a fundamental right because it is unlikely that any state will ever abolish the right...indeed, many couldn't without amending their respective state constitutions...
As of now, we do know that the 2nd amendment gives a fundamental right of the individual to own a weapon for self-defense...and that right is applicable to the states...anything else that one reads from heller and McDonald is possible but not settled at all.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface] 2
#15990876 - 03/24/12 05:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nullface said: Do you still trust the mainstream media?


I haven't trusted the mainstream media in a long, long time. Every picture they have put up of this guy that got shot are of him a as child- they are years old. I also love how they call Zimmerman "white Hispanic".
You know that horrible shooting in France? The first news reports described the killer as a white supremacist. The shooter was, in fact, a Muslim radical. Despite the fact that this shooter was financed and trained by Al Quida the media calls him a "lone wolf". Ditto with the Fort Hood shooter.
Remember that shooting in Arizona? Despite having no evidence to support this the media kept trying to blame the tea party. Debbie Wassermann-Schultz is still blaming the tea party.
The really sad part is that there are people that takes the media at its word. They aren't going to be able to lie to the American people forever, at least I hope that one day people wake the hell up.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15990890 - 03/24/12 05:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It makes me sick that they lie to the world to get better ratings. Nothing will ever reverse the damage they have done to this man or his case. I wish him the best, but I know it's not going to come out good and neither will Florida's gun laws. It's sad week for Zimmerman and this country.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#15991293 - 03/24/12 07:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Lol...Dude...There was no fundamental right to free speech before incorporation, so how can you possibly argue that common law created a right to self-defense that was applicable to the states? That argument fails...
There absolutely was a fundamental right to free speech and it applied to the states and municipalities as much as any other governing body since the founding and before. The right is fundamental and was not granted by any government. The first ten amendments to the federal constitution merely list pre-existing rights and says that these are some of the fundamental common law rights that the federal government cannot infringe upon. There was a good argument that including the Bill of Rights was unnecessary since no government should be allowed to infringe on any of these rights anyway. Ultimately, this argument failed but the 9th amendment was thrown in to include non-enumerated rights in a catch-all in case the government tried to use the argument that any previously existing rights not listed were to no longer apply. Not that they would actually ever stop applying--the intent was to make it as difficult as possible for the government to infringe a right, not to prevent them from "taking it away" (which they can't do).
Now, before the 14th amendment, it was not in the federal government's purview to enforce rights against the states. With the passage of the 14th amendment, the federal government was given the authority to protect people from rights violations by smaller political units. This doesn't mean that before McDonald, Chicago was not infringing on a fundamental right. They were--there was simply no judicial action taken to prompt the federal judiciary to rule on the issue. And as you know, they only decide cases which are presented to them and then only in the most limited scope possible to resolve the issues at hand. Heller, McDonald, and subsequent cases will have a profound effect on local law for a while to come, but they really have no effect on the status of the right to self defense. The effect of the rulings is to restrict the infringement on a right, not to create a new right.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15991355 - 03/24/12 07:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
Enlil said: Lol...Dude...There was no fundamental right to free speech before incorporation, so how can you possibly argue that common law created a right to self-defense that was applicable to the states? That argument fails...
There absolutely was a fundamental right to free speech and it applied to the states and municipalities as much as any other governing body since the founding and before. The right is fundamental and was not granted by any government. The first ten amendments to the federal constitution merely list pre-existing rights and says that these are some of the fundamental common law rights that the federal government cannot infringe upon. There was a good argument that including the Bill of Rights was unnecessary since no government should be allowed to infringe on any of these rights anyway. Ultimately, this argument failed but the 9th amendment was thrown in to include non-enumerated rights in a catch-all in case the government tried to use the argument that any previously existing rights not listed were to no longer apply. Not that they would actually ever stop applying--the intent was to make it as difficult as possible for the government to infringe a right, not to prevent them from "taking it away" (which they can't do).
Now, before the 14th amendment, it was not in the federal government's purview to enforce rights against the states. With the passage of the 14th amendment, the federal government was given the authority to protect people from rights violations by smaller political units. This doesn't mean that before McDonald, Chicago was not infringing on a fundamental right. They were--there was simply no judicial action taken to prompt the federal judiciary to rule on the issue. And as you know, they only decide cases which are presented to them and then only in the most limited scope possible to resolve the issues at hand. Heller, McDonald, and subsequent cases will have a profound effect on local law for a while to come, but they really have no effect on the status of the right to self defense. The effect of the rulings is to restrict the infringement on a right, not to create a new right.
That's a philosophical argument, but it doesn't change the fact that you could be put to death for sodomy in this country...Now, we have a "right to privacy" defined by the scotus in griswold...you can say that the right always existed, and I can say that it was a new right created...the end result is the same...You could be prosecuted for sodomy before Lawrence...Now you can't..
With respect to the current topic of self defense, the SCOTUS has just recently applied the 2nd amendment to the states...we don't yet know what the contours of the right will be...You can say that the right preexisted while I say that the right was just identified...it's a distinction without a difference...The core issue relevant to this thread is whether the states can limit the defense of self-defense...and if it can, to what extent...
As you probably know, every state defines it in it's own way...we have perfect self defense..imperfect self-defense...duty to retreat, castle doctrine...etc...every state makes their own rules...If there is a constitutional right, however, then that would set the absolute minimum protection that a state must allow a defendant...that minimum has never been set by the SCOTUS...
In any case, this is getting very much into the realm of an esoteric argument about the nuances of constitutional law...appealing to the law nerd in me, but completely unnecessary to this thread and uninteresting to everyone else.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 3,060
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil] 1
#15993262 - 03/25/12 09:38 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: and uninteresting to everyone else.
Fuck 'em.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15993732 - 03/25/12 12:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
ChuangTzu said:
Quote:
Enlil said: and uninteresting to everyone else.
Fuck 'em. 
Lol...each and every one of them...alphabetically...
Seriously, though...I could talk contitutional law for days and never get bored...when I was in law school, I would read through the U.S. reports for fun between classes...
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: ChuangTzu]
#15993742 - 03/25/12 12:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's interesting to me.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15994126 - 03/25/12 01:51 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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You could be put to death for sodomy in what country?
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15994150 - 03/25/12 01:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-friend-idUSBRE82O0FE20120325
(Reuters) - George Zimmerman cried for days in remorse after shooting dead a black Florida teenager, a family friend of Zimmerman said on Sunday, offering a sympathetic portrayal of the man at the focal point of a national uproar.
Zimmerman, 28, a white Hispanic, shot Trayvon Martin, 17, in what he said was self defense during an altercation in the gated community Zimmerman was watching on February 26 in Sanford, Florida. After barely going noticed for weeks, the case has since galvanized the country and renewed a national discussion about race.
"He couldn't stop crying. He's a caring human being," Joe Oliver, 53, a former television news reporter and anchor in Orlando who has known Zimmerman for several years, told Reuters in a telephone interview.
"I mean, he took a man's life and he has no idea what to do about it. He's extremely remorseful about it," Oliver said, relating stories told to him by Zimmerman's mother-in-law, a close friend of Oliver's wife.
Oliver's account counters the withering criticism Zimmerman has sustained from demonstrators across the country who have demanded his arrest and accused him of racial bias in targeting Martin. Celebrities have taken up the cause of justice for Trayvon, and President Barack Obama said "all of us have to do some soul-searching" as a result of the tragedy.
"I'm a black male and all that I know is that George has never given me any reason whatsoever to believe he has anything against people of color," Oliver said.
Sanford police did not arrest Zimmerman, saying the evidence could not disprove his account of self-defense, though the case is under review by a state special prosecutor and the U.S. Justice Department.
Zimmerman dropped out of public view shortly after the shooting and his whereabouts were unknown. The New Black Panther Party, an African American organization taking its name from the radical group of the 1960s, has placed a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman.
"All these people who are threatening George, what makes them any better than the person they think he is?" Oliver said. "You've got all these people wanting to lynch the man and they don't know the whole story. There are huge gaps that are being filled in and interpreted without evidence."
Oliver tried to reach Zimmerman after the shooting but he had not spoken with him until Saturday in a conversation arranged by Zimmerman's lawyer.
As a black man, he said he understands how minorities are often unfairly treated, but he believed Zimmerman was simply doing his job by growing suspicious over an unfamiliar person walking through a neighborhood that had suffered some break-ins. Martin lived in Miami but was with his father on a visit to his father's fiancée's home inside the gated community.
"I understand how they're able to leap to the conclusion. You have a dead teenager. This guy is white so it must be a hate crime. There's going to be evidence to come out that basically will justify George's concern," Oliver said.
"He (Zimmerman) confirmed for me that he was not the aggressor. But I did not go into details as to how it got to that aggressive point," Oliver said.
At one point Oliver became choked up with emotion talking about his friend but said he was coming forward freely even though it may expose him to reprisals.
"I just have to do what's right, not just for my friend but for everyone involved," Oliver said. "His mother in law lost her job for this. He's in hiding. His mother in law can't see her own daughter because she fears for their lives."
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Dorian Gray
▐═██████═───



Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5,152
Loc: triple k mafia
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15994479 - 03/25/12 03:16 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
George Zimmerman said:
Fucking Coons
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Quote:
George Zimmerman said:
Fucking Coons
Citation needed.
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Dorian Gray
▐═██████═───



Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5,152
Loc: triple k mafia
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15994511 - 03/25/12 03:22 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nullface said:
Quote:
George Zimmerman said:
Fucking Coons
Citation needed.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Are you retarded? He is saying Fucking Punks. 32 seconds in is the clearest.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15994555 - 03/25/12 03:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It doesn't even fucking sound like 'coons'. Holy shit I can't believe people would even think that. I would be willing to bet every penny I earn to until the day I die that he is NOT saying coons. You have got to be kidding me...
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Dorian Gray
▐═██████═───



Registered: 08/31/10
Posts: 5,152
Loc: triple k mafia
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15994564 - 03/25/12 03:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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It's either coons or cones.
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Nullface

Registered: 09/04/11
Posts: 4,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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No it isn't. I don't have the slightest doubt about what he is saying. This is what happens when the media gets involved with criminal cases.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface] 1
#15994575 - 03/25/12 03:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I'm not sure what he said there, but "coons" is a pretty weird word to choose if you're a racist. I'd never even heard of it until this whole story hit the news.
I believe the proper vernacular Zimmerman should have use if he were a racist in mixed company is "nigger". I haven't heard anything even close in any of the recordings (and I've listen to all of them).
This sounds like those people who "analyze" Nostradamus and find all sorts of references to 9/11, WWI, WWII, Kennedy, and so on after the fact. Next month, they'll find references to Sanford, FL, Martin and Zimmerman in Nostradamus, you'll see.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface] 1
#15994663 - 03/25/12 03:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Nullface said: He is saying Fucking Punks
That.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15994987 - 03/25/12 04:55 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: You could be put to death for sodomy in what country?
In the US at the time the constitution was ratified.
Thomas Jefferson tried to get the maximum sentence reduced to castration in Virginia, but that bill didn't pass...
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/25/12 05:12 PM)
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Nullface]
#15995387 - 03/25/12 06:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Zimmerman, 28, a white Hispanic, shot Trayvon Martin, 17, in what he said was self defense during an altercation in the gated community Zimmerman was watching on February 26 in Sanford, Florida. After barely going noticed for weeks, the case has since galvanized the country and renewed a national discussion about race.
Yeah, gee, it is funny how that works out. The media in our country is out of control, it is out of control. This is yellow journalism at its worst. Despite the fact that all the evidence points to self defense the media convicts this man without a trial. They absolutely destroyed not only his life but the life of his family and there will be no apology for it. There needs to be investigations of the media, this is the last straw.
Oh, and I love how they still have to throw in that "white hispanic"; the media has to keep that narrative going.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15995421 - 03/25/12 06:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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The guy has a $10,000 price on his head put up by Black Panthers, a black racist and antisemitic group. And the investigation isn't even over yet, let alone the guy being found guilty. I haven't seen anyone on Facebook or in the media calling that a travesty. How fucked up is that?
I'm starting a "white Hispanic" group and putting a bounty on OJ's head. Let's see how that plays.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15995467 - 03/25/12 06:49 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yeah I wonder how the media would respond if the situation was reversed and the KKK handed out those posters. This whole thing is a disgrace.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15995544 - 03/25/12 07:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: You could be put to death for sodomy in what country?
In the US at the time the constitution was ratified.
Thomas Jefferson tried to get the maximum sentence reduced to castration in Virginia, but that bill didn't pass...
Link?
--------------------
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15995573 - 03/25/12 07:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: You could be put to death for sodomy in what country?
In the US at the time the constitution was ratified.
Thomas Jefferson tried to get the maximum sentence reduced to castration in Virginia, but that bill didn't pass...
Link?
My source is in book form, but you can look it up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Or here: http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/usa/virginia/virginia.htm
But, I don't see why it matters...You've already said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The possibility of you educating me on anything is damn close to zero.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15925343/fpart/2/vc/1
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole


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Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15995650 - 03/25/12 07:27 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: You could be put to death for sodomy in what country?
In the US at the time the constitution was ratified.
Thomas Jefferson tried to get the maximum sentence reduced to castration in Virginia, but that bill didn't pass...
Link?
My source is in book form, but you can look it up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_laws_in_the_United_States
Or here: http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/usa/virginia/virginia.htm
Following your links leads me to this:
http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/sensibilities/virginia.htm
Quote:
Thus, sodomy was perceived as always being accomplished by force, against a minor, and by a member of the working class.
Seems "sodomy" meant something different then than it does today.Quote:
But, I don't see why it matters...You've already said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The possibility of you educating me on anything is damn close to zero.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/15925343/fpart/2/vc/1
I did learn something but it isn't what you think and I didn't learn it from you. Oh well
--------------------
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15995753 - 03/25/12 07:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Just wanted to hear what everyone else is thinking about this.
This is probably not gonna be a very popular response, but here's my take.
First on the Stand Your Ground law. I live in Florida, not too far from where this happened. I also hold a concealed weapon permit. I don't usually carry in my day to day, but when I go camping in the Everglades or kayaking in the Ten-thousand Islands wilderness area west of the Florida Keys, I pack a weapon because I'll be alone and far from help. If someone out there far from civilization comes at me with a machete or gun, I don't think I should have to turn my back to them and run, giving them an advantage, then finally meet force with force only when the attacker is right on me. So I agree with the law as it stands. If someone comes at me, they'll get a bullet as fast as I can pull the trigger. I'm not running.
As to this particular killing, it reads like a witch hunt. Almost everything I've read has already tried and convicted Zimmerman in the court of popular opinion even though all the evidence isn't in yet and the investigation is still underway. I even read today a statement by a law enforcement official who called Martin a "murdered little boy". And all the photos of Martin I've seen anywhere are from when he was a cute little 13 year old, not a 17 year old high schooler.
Furthermore, how much credence Zimmerman's self-defense claim deserves is in part a function Martin's character (and Zimmerman's too). If Martin were a straight-A goody two shoes, I'd find it hard to believe that he attacked Zimmerman. If Martin were a violent thug with a long arrest record, Zimmerman's claim of self-defense would seem very plausible to me. The truth falls somewhere in between. Martin was 17 years old (not a little boy) and the reason he was up in Sanford, FL was because he was suspended from his Miami high school. Not for anything serious, but it does make Zimmerman's self-defense claim at least a little plausible.
Should Zimmerman have been following Martin? I wouldn't, but so what? It's not illegal to be where Zimmerman was. It's not illegal for Zimmerman to ask Martin what he was doing. Neither was Martin doing anything illegal. But that's the point. There was some poor judgment going on, but nothing illegal until either Martin attacked Zimmerman or Zimmerman shot Martin unprovoked. And which of those happened has not yet been determined.
The bottom line is that we don't know what happened. We don't have all the evidence (new stories are not evidence), and until the investigation is done and the facts known as well as possible, this whole thing reads to me like a witch hunt. And it would suck if Florida changes the Stand Your Ground law so that I have to risk imminent death before I can shoot an asshole trying to rob me.
Sorry i have to disagree with you, and i also live in Florida in Polk County near the Orange county border.. I have been following this story since the day after he was shot and killed..... Zimmerman is hiding behind a law due to him being smart enough to know it because he was a criminal Justice major in college... He was told by the police after making a 911 call before he ever set foot out of the car to not follow this kid, or make any contact with him... Both of which he ignored and got out of his car and harassed a black kid who was walking down a street after buying a Ice tea and a bag of skittles.. Right there should tell you something... This was a sought out action.... Then after he shot this kid and he is dying he has his knees on his back, and never even tried to save him... Witness have already stated that.. I understand that this law protects you out in the everglades and i feel you have the right to it... But come on Zimmerman sought this out because he knew he had a gun, and had the power to end this if he had to... This wasn't some guy being robbed man... this was a wanna be self appointed scumbag who decide why was a black kid walking down his street he must be up to no good.... I support him being brought in the right way and being tried... If he was in his rights then let him be judged free.... But this family deserves to know he isn't walking around free because of some law saying " hey i can seek out a problem, and hell just say a unarmed kid who i am FUCKING with because he is black wearing a hoodie in my hood can be shot, and hehehe nothing can happen to me cause of the SHOOT first law... Thanks Florida...
Edit: All i am asking is Zimmerman be arrested and have to face up for what he did..
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
Edited by MrSinister (03/25/12 08:50 PM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15995856 - 03/25/12 08:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: He was told by the police after making a 911 call before he ever set foot out of the car to not follow this kid, or make any contact with him
No they didn't.
They said "We don’t need you to do that." [2:26]
How does that translate to "not follow"?
Really? You couldn't even get that right?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
#15995988 - 03/25/12 08:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: I did learn something but it isn't what you think and I didn't learn it from you. Oh well
Sodomy was not only forced...Here is the VA law: "A. If any person carnally knows in any manner any brute animal, or carnally knows any male or female person by the anus or by or with the mouth, or voluntarily submits to such carnal knowledge, he or she shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony, except as provided in subsection B.
B. Any person who carnally knows by the anus or by or with the mouth his daughter or granddaughter, son or grandson, brother or sister, or father or mother shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony. However, if a parent or grandparent commits any such act with his child or grandchild and such child or grandchild is at least thirteen but less than eighteen years of age at the time of the offense, such parent or grandparent shall be guilty of a Class 3 felony."
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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memes
Blessed



Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15996002 - 03/25/12 08:35 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hey guys. this thread isn't about sodomy. let's not get off track here.
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
#15996008 - 03/25/12 08:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
MrSinister said: He was told by the police after making a 911 call before he ever set foot out of the car to not follow this kid, or make any contact with him
No they didn't.
They said "We don’t need you to do that." [2:26]
How does that translate to "not follow"?
Really? You couldn't even get that right?
" The 911 call was one of Zimmerman's nearly 50 calls in the past year wherein he reported a suspicious black male in his neighborhood."
Zimmerman:
"The back entrance.
[It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22]"
Yea George there wasn't a raging racist at all was he... Like i said i live with this case everyday and i feel he needs to at least be brought in and questioned for his actions...
@ Diploid... to bad it wasn't Nicholas Lindsey he meet up with... They may have killed each other, and two lives would have been spared...
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: memes]
#15996011 - 03/25/12 08:37 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
meams said: Hey guys. this thread isn't about sodomy. let's not get off track here.
In my opinion, EVERYTHING is about sodomy..
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister] 1
#15996037 - 03/25/12 08:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I have been following this story since the day after he was shot and killed
You haven't been doing a very good job as evidenced by the many errors of fact in your rant.
He was told by the police after making a 911 call before he ever set foot out of the car to not follow this kid, or make any contact with him
No, he was told by the non-emergency dispatcher (not the police) that "We don’t need you to do that" (not "don't follow that guy"). That's a verbatim quote.
Why do you feel a need to make shit up and spin the truth? The real truth doesn't need to be bolstered with lies. The truth can stand on its own.
That you, like so many others, are blithely ignorant of (or deliberately misrepresent) salient facts in this case and yet have already made up your mind about Zimmerman's guilt based on those faulty facts would be kinda funny if it wasn't so depressingly representative of this country's inability to think unemotionally.
Right there should tell you something
The only thing your rant tells me is that you are partially clueless about the facts of the case and despite this have already tried and convicted Zimmerman based on whatever erroneous, self-serving crap you made up or read on Facebook.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15996087 - 03/25/12 08:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I agree. The more I hear about this the more I think this is going to play out much different then people expect it to.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15996113 - 03/25/12 08:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Look no offense but i know one of Trayvons relative very well, and the FACT as you say points to a guy who made 50 911 calls in a year about black people being on his street... It points to a guy calling a 17 year old kid a coon, and already judging him walking down said street because he had on a hoodie.... Man a racist is a racist bro... Sorry your SHOOT first law is in question here... But no offense you want to live in fantasy land where he is justified be my guest... But what your not going to do is flip this on a 17 year old victim who crime was walking down a street...
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996134 - 03/25/12 09:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
But what your not going to do is flip this on a 17 year old victim who crime was walking down a street
...and beating someone to a bloody pulp.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996142 - 03/25/12 09:03 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: Look no offense but i know one of Trayvons relative very well, and the FACT as you say points to a guy who made 50 911 calls in a year about black people being on his street... It points to a guy calling a 17 year old kid a coon, and already judging him walking down said street because he had on a hoodie.... Man a racist is a racist bro... Sorry your SHOOT first law is in question here... But no offense you want to live in fantasy land where he is justified be my guest... But what your not going to do is flip this on a 17 year old victim who crime was walking down a street...
Being a racist doesn't make his self-defense claim any less viable...
And if he's had 50 such encounters, why don't we have 50 dead people?
There's a witness that says that trayvon attacked him...maybe two...Where is ONE witness that says otherwise?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996154 - 03/25/12 09:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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and the FACT as you say points to a guy who made 50 911 calls in a year about black people being on his street
Those would be the facts if you were biased and already made up your mind.
Here is a transcript of Zimmerman's many 911 calls.
If you take the time to look for the truth, whatever it may be, instead of sifting out only the facts that support your pre-conclusion, you'll find that Zimmerman also reported many "white males", "Hispanic males", "open garage doors", "suspicious pickup truck", "house alarm", "suspicious car cruising the neighborhood", "a stray dog", "an aggressive white and brown pitbull", "a white male with shaved head", and yes also "suspicious black males". This is as would be expected for any volunteer neighborhood watch.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996157 - 03/25/12 09:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: [It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22]"
Except it's easy enough to find a copy of the call that's been cleared of noise. You know, where it shows he said no such thing.
Anything else you have wrong that you need cleared up?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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MrSinister
Uncle T



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Posts: 4,252
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15996159 - 03/25/12 09:07 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hence being followed by Zimmerman because he was a black kid who dare be on his street, and the watch commander Zimmerman knew he was up to no good, got out his car and questioned this kid like he was a police officer... On what grounds? Guilt by color? I wish that had been Nick Lindsey Diploid.... As for the Black Panther thing, i think they need to shut up, and go away... All anybody wants is the truth of this...
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister] 1
#15996180 - 03/25/12 09:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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and the watch commander Zimmerman
More straight up ignorance in the face of your pre-judgment of the entire case. Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch CAPTAIN, not commander. It's a small error in this particular case, but my point is that it's emblematic of everything you say. You don't give a shit about the accuracy of your facts. All you care about is how well they pre-convict Zimmerman. The hell with the truth.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist



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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996186 - 03/25/12 09:11 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: Look no offense but i know one of Trayvons relative very well,
So fucking what? You weren't there.
Quote:
and the FACT as you say points to a guy who made 50 911 calls in a year about black people being on his street...
And the other 49 times, how many people got shot?
Quote:
It points to a guy calling a 17 year old kid a coon,
That hasn't been established.
Quote:
and already judging him walking down said street because he had on a hoodie....
You're judging Zimmerman based on as much or less.
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Man a racist is a racist bro...
I don't know if Zimmerman is a racist or not, but I know that 99% of the media articles and comments I have read about this are racist.
Quote:
Sorry your SHOOT first law is in question here...
WTF is a 'shoot first' law?
Quote:
But no offense you want to live in fantasy land where he is justified be my guest...
You don't know if he was justified or not, neither does anyone else here. That's for an investigation and possibly an eventual jury to decide.
Quote:
But what your not going to do is flip this on a 17 year old victim who crime was walking down a street...
I'm pretty sure the people you are arguing with are reserving judgement rather than blaming anyone.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996205 - 03/25/12 09:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: Look no offense but i know one of Trayvons relative very well
What your previous accuracy shows us is that you probably know someone who thought they knew someone who it turns out actually didn't.
Quote:
., and the FACT as you say points to a guy who made 50 911 calls in a year about black people being on his street...
Except they don't.
Quote:
It points to a guy calling a 17 year old kid a coon
Except the cleaned up audio shows he didn't.
Quote:
and already judging him walking down said street because he had on a hoodie....
Another mind reader?
Quote:
Man a racist is a racist bro...
Except those who know him, including blacks, don't seem to share that view.
Quote:
Sorry your SHOOT first law is in question here...
People who dislike guns will use any excuse.
Quote:
But no offense you want to live in fantasy land where he is justified be my guest...
Well, unlike you I reside in a world where facts and truth count for something. But hey, you haven't let facts stand in your way up to now.
Quote:
But what your not going to do is flip this on a 17 year old victim who crime was walking down a street...
Facts are a bitch. Which is why I'm waiting for all the facts and unlike you... I don't feel the need to lie about them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996221 - 03/25/12 09:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: All anybody wants is the truth of this...
Right. Except you have no grasp of the facts and have decided who Zimmerman is and what happened. Even though you weren't there.
Good for you.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996249 - 03/25/12 09:21 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: Hence being followed by Zimmerman because he was a black kid who dare be on his street, and the watch commander Zimmerman knew he was up to no good, got out his car and questioned this kid like he was a police officer... On what grounds? Guilt by color? I wish that had been Nick Lindsey Diploid.... As for the Black Panther thing, i think they need to shut up, and go away... All anybody wants is the truth of this...
There were something like 8 break ins and one shooting that month in his neighborhood. I think it has been well established that Zimmerman is a nosy Nancy and a habitual 911 caller. He saw someone that he didn't know walking around with a hoodie up- that looked suspicious to him. Judging by his previous 911 calls (you know, little things called facts) he would have called the cops on anyone and not just black people.
Even if Zimmerman was acting like an ass that does not give Martin a right to jump him and beat him to a bloody pulp. Then he walked away and when Zimmerman called for help Martin came back to beat him some more. What the hell was he thinking? The only thing I can think of: Martin thought Zimmerman was dead and he realized he wasn't Martin tried to finish the job.
Considering the evidence at the scene and the cooperating witness(es) this appears to be an open and shut self defense case. Martin could have avoided this whole situation by just walking away. People act like asses to me and I don't lash out violently.
Believe it or not but not all white people are out to get all black people and not all cops are racist.
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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For the very last time i will state like i have four times in the past i want to see him have to answer for shooting this kid... If he is Innocent then so be it... If it was self defence let a jury decide this... But he should not have the right to hide behind this law the way this went down..
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996315 - 03/25/12 09:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: For the very last time i will state like i have four times in the past i want to see him have to answer for shooting this kid... If he is Innocent then so be it... If it was self defence let a jury decide this... But he should not have the right to hide behind this law the way this went down..
Well, not for the last time I'll say it appears that either ignorantly, or deliberately, you are misstating the facts.
No-one is hiding behind anything. Stop with the hyperbole and misstatements.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



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Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996327 - 03/25/12 09:34 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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IF he's hiding behind a law. If the police determined correctly it was self defense they do not need to arrest.
So now we wait and find out what the investigation reveals. I do think it's reasonable that this gets looked into because I don't always trust the cops.
It's a big guess still at this point but I'm guessing Zimmerman is innocent.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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psi
TOAST N' JAM


Registered: 09/05/99
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Loc: 613
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
#15996335 - 03/25/12 09:36 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
setb said: Even if Zimmerman was acting like an ass that does not give Martin a right to jump him and beat him to a bloody pulp. Then he walked away and when Zimmerman called for help Martin came back to beat him some more.
I take it you know of some evidence that that's the sequence of events that took place?
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setb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,580
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996354 - 03/25/12 09:38 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: For the very last time i will state like i have four times in the past i want to see him have to answer for shooting this kid... If he is Innocent then so be it... If it was self defence let a jury decide this... But he should not have the right to hide behind this law the way this went down..
Why would he have to go to a jury if no crime was committed or are we now guilty till proven innocent if the folks in the media and on twitter raise a stink?
Quote:
IF he's hiding behind a law. If the police determined correctly it was self defense they do not need to arrest.
So now we wait and find out what the investigation reveals. I do think it's reasonable that this gets looked into because I don't always trust the cops.
It's a big guess still at this point but I'm guessing Zimmerman is innocent.
Right, he hasn't been charged with a crime yet because the evidence and witness(es) point toward self defense. The police are doing their do diligence and are investigating; this investigation is ongoing and everyone should just chill the heck out till it is wrapped up.
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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As of now he has not been arrested due to the "Stand Your Ground" law we have in Florida..
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996380 - 03/25/12 09:41 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Are you sure of that? We have no such law here but you will not be arrested if it is determined you fully acted in self defense.
I keep wondering why anyone wants to live in Florida anyway?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996391 - 03/25/12 09:43 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: As of now he has not been arrested due to the "Stand Your Ground" law we have in Florida..
So what? If the investigation shows he violated the law, it'll come out.
In the meantime, you're spreading a bunch of bullshit.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996472 - 03/25/12 10:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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If it was self defence let a jury decide this
The jury will be involved if their is cause, but point of fact, under the law, if someone attacks you, you can shoot to kill. That's the law and if that's what the investigation turns out happened here, then there is no need for a jury. Zimmerman is free to go (unless he gets lynched which seems likely at this point).
Anyone who doesn't like that can move to change the SYG law. I don't much care about politics any more, but that change I would fight with all my resources because I don't think it's right to make a man run instead of meet force with force when attacked.
That would leave the criminals running rampant with guns while the law abiding citizens having to cower in fear of going to prison if they shoot an attacker and Twitter sides against them.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Personaly i could carless what you think or say guy...
Get some decaf... Diploid made some good points that i respect, so i'll wait and see... Though the one thing witness stated that bothers me the most was this... I am going to quote it from a witness who was there, so shhh...
Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back.. Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.
"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.
You got to wonder could Zimmerman have saved this kid if he had tried or let anybody try.. I'll end there tonight...
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15996523 - 03/25/12 10:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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You know i respect your right to be protected under that law... It's shitty that this mess had to fall under it, and bring it to question.. People like you who are responsible gun owners deserve to be protected..
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996555 - 03/25/12 10:20 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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From that story Martin's mother said:
"He got a bag of skittles, iced tea, his phone and $22 in his pocket. What kind of harm would he do to a 28-year-old, 250 pound man with that [a gun] in his pocket," Martin said. "There’s no question that was my baby’s voice. He was saying, Help, Help me," Fulton said through tears. "The life that he was living was, it was, he was headed on the right path," Martin said."
But it's more spin because from Martin's Facebook he transparently appears to be a weed-dealing young man, not an innocent baby boy with skittles whose life was "on the right path".
Written to Martin on Facebook:
"pik up the fone or hmu we got business to talk! damn where u at a nigga needa plant"
None of this goes to the guilt or innocence of anyone involved, but it does point out that if you're interested in the truth instead of a witch hunt, you have to be critical of everything you read in the media who seem more interested in good ratings than good facts.
Dateline
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15996602 - 03/25/12 10:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't think he was dealing bro... From that looks like he was looking to buy a bag.
Look Diploid i am not looking to take away the gun owners rights, or even get rid of the law protecting Zimmerman, because you have the right to protect yourself... I told you i am angry by this killing, and i think it was just pointless.. Though let me say now I don't feel the Black Panthers should be putting out a 10k hit on him, and wish they go the F away...
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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MrSinister
Uncle T



Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 4,252
Loc: Outworld
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15996656 - 03/25/12 10:39 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Ok not to make light of this, but tell me that wouldn't have been a shoot out if that 17yr old kid had been Nick Lindsey.. That would have been interesting to see who shot who first seeing they both panicked it seemed..
This is who Nick Lindsey is for anybody who don't know... It's a very big case going on in Tampa right now..
http://www.baynews9.com/content/news/baynews9/news/article.html/content/news/articles/bn9/2012/3/23/verdict_expected_tod/
--------------------
"They look like psychos? Is that what they looked like? They were vampires. Psychos do not explode when sunlight hits 'em. I don't give a fuck how crazy they are!" "Eric Stratton.. Rush chairman.. Damn glad to meet you.."
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15996821 - 03/25/12 11:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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I don't think he was dealing bro... From that looks like he was looking to buy a bag.
That was written TO Martin, not by Martin. It reads like someone looking for him (Martin) to sell him weed. The next time you're at his mother's house, maybe ask what's up with that her "baby boy on the right path" apparently being asked to sell weed on Facebook.
And again, that doesn't necessarily support one side or the other, but it does show that people and the media may be spinning the facts. At this point I can't tell if Martin was the angelic little boy his mother claims or the drug dealing thug his Facebook suggests.
As for Lindsey, that's a whole other case. But the guy shot a cop, not just once, but multiple times. He was not a concealed weapon permit holder so the gun was illegal and the SYG law doesn't apply. It went to court and the jury didn't buy his self-defense claim, probably because he was a gang member and shot the cop multiple times.
Start another thread if you like. This one is about Martin and Zimmerman.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: MrSinister]
#15997415 - 03/26/12 03:37 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MrSinister said: Personaly i could carless what you think or say guy...
Of course you don't. It's factual, accurate and doesn't conform to your preconceived notions.
Quote:
Get some decaf...
Right. Can't argue against the facts so you want to make it about me rather than your ignorance on the subject.
Quote:
Diploid made some good points that i respect, so i'll wait and see...
Except you didn't "wait and see", you decided he was guilty without having done even the most rudimentary research into the facts.
Quote:
Though the one thing witness stated that bothers me the most was this... I am going to quote it from a witness who was there, so shhh...
Mary Cutcher told Dateline that she and her roommate both saw Zimmerman "straddling the body, basically a foot on both sides of Trayvon's body, and his hands pressed on his back.. Cutcher added that Zimmerman told her and her roommate to call the police.
"Zimmerman never turned him over or tried to help him or CPR or anything," Cutcher said.
You got to wonder could Zimmerman have saved this kid if he had tried or let anybody try..
Right. THIS witness you believe. How does she know if Zimmerman even knows CPR? Why didn't she do CPR? Why didn't she turn him over? Why didn't you?
Quote:
I'll end there tonight...
And yet you go on for several more posts.
Huh.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
MrSinister said: [It sounds like Zimmerman says under his breath, ‘F-ing coons’ at 2:22]"
Except it's easy enough to find a copy of the call that's been cleared of noise. You know, where it shows he said no such thing.
Anything else you have wrong that you need cleared up?
What does this one sound like? I haven't heard it.
--------------------
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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I'm also interested if anyone has learned about the bus driver that he apparently swung on. I have read other reports that the suspension for tardiness is false.
Trayvon is NO_LIMIT_NIGGA
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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It was posted earlier in this thread.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Yeah it sounds like punks.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Yes. It also seems that despite Zimmerman being a nosy person who was too stupid to stay in his car, he has enough of a history of making calls to the police that he should be well aware of the fact that those calls are recorded. It seems unlikely that he'd be stupid enough to say "coons" on a recorded call to the police, while not knowing the ethnicity of the dispatcher, or the responders.
I have no special knowledge that leads me to say that, just supposition.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I'm also interested if anyone has learned about the bus driver that he apparently swung on.
I excerpt some details I found below.
I have read other reports that the suspension for tardiness is false.
I've read tardiness and "being in an unauthorized area of the school", whatever that means. I don't think either of those are indicative of a violent predilection.
But if he took a swipe at a bus driver, he might have taken a swipe at Zimmerman who, according to his lawyer, has a broken nose.
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Trayvon's older brother, Stephen Martin, appears to have sent Trayvon a twitter message five days before the shooting that may explain the ten day suspension. The website WAGIST.com has scrutinized the twitter messages sent by Trayvon's older brother and his friends.
WAGIST.com says that Stephen Martin tweeted a message to Trayvon on February 21st that read "yu ain't tell me yu swung on a bus driver." Based on screen captures provided by WAGIST.com, the message appears to be authentic. It was sent five days before the shooting, and raises a lot of speculation. Was Trayvon Martin suspended for ten days for assaulting a bus driver?
Stephen has also posted a newer picture of Trayvon both on twitter and on Facebook. It shows an older, more muscular Trayvon than what we have seen in the media. It also shows a large tattoo on Trayvon's left arm.
Examiner
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
#15998252 - 03/26/12 11:09 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Update: The Florida Sun-Sentinel reported today, March 26th, that Trayvon's ten day suspension was related to marijuana. This, and a cryptic comment by his father that was quoted in the above Kansas City Star article, suggest he was caught smoking marijuana on school property.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#15998263 - 03/26/12 11:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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If that turns out to be accurate, it would explain momma Martin's evasiveness when asked the reason for her angelic son's suspension.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 817
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Icelander]
#15998269 - 03/26/12 11:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Update: The Florida Sun-Sentinel reported today, March 26th, that Trayvon's ten day suspension was related to marijuana. This, and a cryptic comment by his father that was quoted in the above Kansas City Star article, suggest he was caught smoking marijuana on school property.
It's not surprising from everything else the family has been trying to hide. They said that he was suspended because of pot residue in his book bag.
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Edited by psychotropicwhale (03/26/12 11:20 AM)
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