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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,579
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
    #15985376 - 03/23/12 12:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It really is a testament to the manipulative nature of our media that such a  statement is not completely obvious. I can't stand listening to Jeremiah Wright for two minutes; Obama sat in his church for 20 years. Wright baptized his children and married him. Not to mention the fact that Obama surrounds himself with other racists- look at Eric Holder.

On top of that: every one of his actions on matters of race suggests this. Remember "he acted stupidly?" I think he has a real problem with white people and Americans in general. I also think he has a real problem with the British and with Israel/Jews. Just going off of how he treats people and what he says. Obama treats Benjamin Netanyahu in a way that I wouldn't treat an enemy.

It is my opinion, but I judge people by the company they keep, by their actions, and by their words.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Beefcakemighty]
    #15985382 - 03/23/12 12:58 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Beefcakemighty said:
LMAO I just find it hard for a full grown man to be so scared by a 17yo black kid walking down the street and felt the need to call the police and then engage the kid for no reason. A 17yo with no weapon was such a threat that he needed to fire his gun?



Generally, I'd agree with you..but Zimmerman looks like a total pussy to me...I think he'd be easily frightened...not to mention the fact that he sounded like a total wimp on the 911 call as well.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: psychotropicwhale]
    #15985387 - 03/23/12 01:00 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psychotropicwhale said:
Al and Lewie are obviously racists, but how do you figure that President Obama is?




To put it bluntly: "‘If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,’ Obama says".


--------------------
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Invisiblesetb
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Registered: 01/30/11
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: fireworks_god]
    #15985399 - 03/23/12 01:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

psychotropicwhale said:
Al and Lewie are obviously racists, but how do you figure that President Obama is?




To put it bluntly: "‘If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon,’ Obama says".




He is clearly stoking the fire on this; Obama wants the chaos. If for no other reason: it provides a great distraction to the horrible economy, gas prices, etc.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
    #15985714 - 03/23/12 02:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Everything I've read says that he wasn't processed at all, that he gave his account at the scene and that he was free to go.


Zimmerman's arrest report, clicky >>> http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Here's an excerpt:

I asked the subject in the red jacket, later identified as George Zimmerman (who was the original caller for the suspicious person complain), if he had seen the subject. Zimmerman stated that he had shot the subject and he was still armed. Zimmerman complied with all of my verbal commands and was secured in handcuffs.

The arrest report goes on to say:

...[Zimmerman] was transported to the Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman was placed in an interview room at SPD, where he was interviewed by Investigator D. Singleton.

If that's incorrect, then I'm willing to retract those statements.

What you should retract is your summary conviction of a man who hasn't even been arraigned yet.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb] * 1
    #15985720 - 03/23/12 02:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

The inimitable Ace at Ace of Spades HQ weighs in with his usual cut-through-the-crap precision. I am deliberately selecting just a few of his points to cut and paste here. More at the link. Go there. You won't be disappointed

Quote:

Random Thoughts About The Shooting of Trayvon Martin
—Ace


Oh, the Media decided We Have To Have a National Discussion about this story.

1. I appreciate the media dubbing Zimmerman "a white Hispanic." Like the Israelis, he's now an honorary member of the Oppressive White Majority.

2. Certain local stories of race-on-race crime ignite the media's passions. Others do not.

3. Most of the time, stories like the one I just linked are not reported by the media, for various reasons. One is that, alas, black on white crime is so common as to be not newsworthy, whereas the reverse is rare and hence, oddly, makes national news... (more at the link)

4. The cops acted predictably and understandably in not arresting Zimmerman. Here are the facts, as they knew them at the time: Zimmerman was a law-abiding citizen who gave them lots of (correct) tips about local crime. He was helpful to the police (probably also annoying in being too vigilant -- but while such people may annoy the police, they nevertheless appreciate the help that comes with the annoyance).

He called in to 911 to report a "suspicious" character, then followed him, waiting for police to arrive. Eventually there was some violence (Zimmerman was reportedly bloodied) and he claimed self-defense.

Now, under those circumstances, the police are not going to be very suspicious of Zimmerman. If he was attempting a murder, he went about it in a strange way -- calling police to arrive at the scene of the crime before there was a crime. He had no known motive against this Trayvon Martin fellow -- they'd never met.

Why suspect a deliberate murder?

That doesn't make Zimmerman innocent -- but it does explain why the police thought he was likely innocent of wrongdoing.


...At the heart of every self-defense case are a pair of related questions: Did the defendant reasonably believe his safety was in jeopardy when he struck the fatal blow? And, based on the circumstances, did the defendant act lawfully?

Facts, not ginned up racial outrage or general anti-gun animus, answer these questions.

Various inarticulate, charity-hire racists don't need a sober assessment of the facts, because their conclusions are animated by racism -- the party of the Disfavored Race is always guilty. (Even when the member of the Disfavored Race is only an honorary member of that Disfavored Race.)


7. The media is a full-court press to politicize this, noting that the entire Republican field has remained "silent" on this case.

Two problems: First, Obama himself remained "silent" until yesterday, when he declared if he had a son, he'd look like Trayvon Martin. (And not, for example, like the guys who set fire to the white boy.)

This happened a month ago. Obama waited a month to comment, and previously his administration refused comment, calling it a "local" matter.

So why suddenly is everyone expected to hop-to now that Hamlet has decided it's a good issue to exploit?

Second problem: Obama is not the first candidate to address this matter. Newt Gingrich was.

So is Obama racist for failing to match Gingrich's alacrity?

8. Fantasy is a very popular genre of fiction. Fantasy is often used to explore real-world problems, but in fantasy trappings. Why is this attractive? Perhaps because the real-world problems, with real-world details, are so unattractive that many people can only be induced to engage with the subject matter if it has a certain amount of distancing from real-world details. If it's fuzzed up by fantasy. Spoonfull of sugar and all that.

The actual real-world facts is that blacks commit crimes at greatly higher rates than whites, and that blacks specifically victimize whites at far higher rates than whites victimize blacks.

And yet the media doesn't ever wish to discuss that -- it's too real, it hurts too much. It offends people.

So instead we only talk about racial issues through this fantasy lens-- the fantasy lens in which white on black crime is common and some sort of national epidemic which must be addressed immediately.

In this case, if Zimmerman was too vigilant and too paranoid, it could just be because he overreacted, lethally, to the very real problem of high black crime rates.

And while we blame him, what about the actual black criminals -- not Trayvon Martin, mind you, who appears blameless, but the actual black criminals who'd been operating in Zimmerman's neighborhood and so brought this tragedy to pass?

Shall we say nothing of them?

Probably not. Because we don't have enough layers of fantasy to make that particular problem palatable and safe for polite discussion.




More at the link.



Phred


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Phred]
    #15985849 - 03/23/12 03:05 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Here's an excerpt of the story in Phred's link that appears to be dead. It reports on the case about a month ago of two black guys attacking a white kid with gasoline and setting him on fire. There was barely a mention in the press.

Melissa Coon said her son turned from the school's stadium onto Quincy Avenue and noticed two teenagers following him. She said the teens followed her son home and attacked him outside his front door.

"And they rushed him on the porch as he tried to get the door open," she said. "(One of them) poured the gasoline, then flicked the Bic, and said, 'This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy'."

The two attackers ran away, and the eighth grader put the fire out with the shirt off his back. He managed to call 911 on his own, then his father. He was taken by ambulance to Children's Mercy Hospital and spent several hours in the hospital's burn unit.

"You could smell the burned skin," said Coon. "You could smell the burned hair. It was just horrible." Her son lost some of his eyelashes, eyebrows, and some of the hair around his face was singed. Coon said she knows her son is lucky -- but also can't believe someone would do that to her child.

Coon said the incident will have a lingering affect on her family.

"My five year old came in and asked me, 'Mom, am I going to get set on fire today?'" she said. "I was in tears."

Coon said her family will move from their home and her son will not return to East High School. She said he thinks his attackers may be students there.


KMBC


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid] * 2
    #15986484 - 03/23/12 05:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

So since I live in a stand your ground state, i can legally kill someone by simply:

1.) Start a fight
2.) Lose the fight
3.) Shoot the guy who kicked my ass.

SWEEEEEET! :kenthumbup:


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #15986509 - 03/23/12 06:06 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It doesn't work that way. Have you read the law?

Meanwhile for those who live in non-Stand Your Ground states, I can attack you with a knife and you have to run from me instead meeting my attack. Once I reach you and stab you in the back as you run, then you can turn around and blow my head off... if you're still alive by that time that is. Good luck with that.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid] * 1
    #15986712 - 03/23/12 07:04 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Generally, I'd agree with you..but Zimmerman looks like a total pussy to me...I think he'd be easily frightened...not to mention the fact that he sounded like a total wimp on the 911 call as well.




I agree. This is why I commented about fear.  Fear is why Zimmerman had a gun, and the magic of the gun gave Zimmerman the balls to accost a "suspicious", possible criminal --to his way of thinking.  This assumption, that Zimmerman made, that a black kid in a hoodie in a gated community at night = suspicious, possible criminal ... this is nasty racial stereotyping that lead to the death of a kid who was trying to flee a guy who was stalking him.  Whites who rankle at the fact that racism against blacks exists would like to remove Martin's race from the scenario.  Sorry, you can't remove Martin's race as a fact and a factor any more easily than you can remove the gun from Zimmerman as a fact and a factor. Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.


--------------------


The People's History


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?

Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
    #15986829 - 03/23/12 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
It doesn't work that way. Have you read the law?

Meanwhile for those who live in non-Stand Your Ground states, I can attack you with a knife and you have to run from me instead meeting my attack. Once I reach you and stab you in the back as you run, then you can turn around and blow my head off... if you're still alive by that time that is. Good luck with that.




You're exaggerating just a bit. In those states you must flee IF possible. There is no requirement you be beaten, stabbed, shot, raped or even punched first.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesetb
10th level beer nerd
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 2,579
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15986832 - 03/23/12 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I agree. This is why I commented about fear.  Fear is why Zimmerman had a gun, and the magic of the gun gave Zimmerman the balls to accost a "suspicious", possible criminal --to his way of thinking.  This assumption, that Zimmerman made, that a black kid in a hoodie in a gated community at night = suspicious, possible criminal ... this is nasty racial stereotyping that lead to the death of a kid who was trying to flee a guy who was stalking him.  Whites who rankle at the fact that racism against blacks exists would like to remove Martin's race from the scenario.  Sorry, you can't remove Martin's race as a fact and a factor any more easily than you can remove the gun from Zimmerman as a fact and a factor. Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.




That's all well and good except for the fact that you have no evidence at all to support your racist conspiracy; just because you want it to be true as it fits your own racist views doesn't make it true. Are you going to tell me that you can even tell what race someone is in the dark of night when they have a hoodie pulled up?

Even if you could: you have no way of seeing into this guy's mind at the time this happened.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?

Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15986834 - 03/23/12 07:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.




How did you develop your mind reading powers?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15987166 - 03/23/12 09:16 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.




How did Zimmerman make it a race issue?  The only people I've seen make it a race issue are the usual racebaiting punks.


--------------------


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OfflineHumility
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #15987194 - 03/23/12 09:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Like I said, this shit is deplorable.  The shroomery really bums me out sometimes


No one is saying Zimmerman should be found instantly guilty.  The handling of this has situation however has clearly been faulty.


It's just really sad that the kid couldn't even legally be armed, was approached by some guy with a gun, was shot to death and now a bunch of people are saying that we need to reserve our judgement in order to see if maybe Travyon attacked Zimmerman in a heated fury and blah blah blah.  If trayvon had been illegally armed in order to protect himself from something like this everyone would immediately pronounce him a violent criminal, a gun-offender, a this and a that, a young black hoodlum, etc.


No matter what Zimmerman's defense is, this was wrong.  This kid was walking home to his father's house, was accosted by some stranger with a gun and shot dead in the streets.  That a person would even begin to consider someone claiming self-defense in such a case is pathetic.


It's scary to live in a country where an unarmed black teen can be approached in the streets by an armed man and killed with no witnesses around and then the overwhelming consensus given by some people is that because the killer claims self defense, despite outweighing the teen by over a hundred pounds and being the only one armed in the situation, that the case is "up in the air".


It's really just despicable. 



I'm so sick and tired of armed men shooting unarmed men and teens and sometimes kids and afterwards claiming that they, the armed men who went on to become armed killers, were the ones who "feared for their life" against unarmed men.

Armed men killing unarmed men claiming they did it because they, the killers, "feared for their lives".  This is epic novel type material.  This is the kind of behavior people spend many years cleansing themselves of after death.



If you're not on your property and you shoot and kill an unarmed person who wasn't attempting to take your life or something similar, you've committed a crime.  The day "Fearing for one's life" became a justified excuse for killing a person, an excuse that could save you from jail, justice took a sharp blow.

That such a subjective measure having such far-reaching real world consequences can even be a possibility speaks to the injustice of the criminal justice system.  Any system under which it's legal to kill people if you state afterwards that you "feared for your life" is a system that's far beyond broken.  It takes corrupt, negligent and apathetic individuals to keep such a system running.


--------------------


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
    #15987220 - 03/23/12 09:25 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Humility said:
Like I said, this shit is deplorable.  The shroomery really bums me out sometimes


No one is saying Zimmerman should be found instantly guilty.  The handling of this has situation however has clearly been faulty.


It's just really sad that the kid couldn't even legally be armed, was approached by some guy with a gun, was shot to death and now a bunch of people are saying that we need to reserve our judgement in order to see if maybe Travyon attacked Zimmerman in a heated fury and blah blah blah.  If trayvon had been illegally armed in order to protect himself from something like this everyone would immediately pronounce him a violent criminal, a gun-offender, a this and a that, a young black hoodlum, etc.


No matter what Zimmerman's defense is, this was wrong.  This kid was walking home to his father's house, was accosted by some stranger with a gun and shot dead in the streets.  That a person would even begin to consider someone claiming self-defense in such a case is pathetic.


It's scary to live in a country where an unarmed black teen can be approached in the streets by an armed man and killed with no witnesses around and then the overwhelming consensus given by some people is that because the killer claims self defense, despite outweighing the teen by over a hundred pounds and being the only one armed in the situation, that the case is "up in the air".


It's really just despicable. 



I'm so sick and tired of armed men shooting unarmed men and teens and sometimes kids and afterwards claiming that they, the armed men who went on to become armed killers, were the ones who "feared for their life" against unarmed men.

Armed men killing unarmed men claiming they did it because they, the killers, "feared for their lives".  This is epic novel type material.  This is the kind of behavior people spend many years cleansing themselves of after death.



If you're not on your property and you shoot and kill an unarmed person who wasn't attempting to take your life or something similar, you've committed a crime.  The day "Fearing for one's life" became a justified excuse for killing a person, an excuse that could save you from jail, justice took a sharp blow.

That such a subjective measure having such far-reaching real world consequences can even be a possibility speaks to the injustice of the criminal justice system.  Any system under which it's legal to kill people if you state afterwards that you "feared for your life" is a system that's far beyond broken.  It takes corrupt, negligent and apathetic individuals to keep such a system running.



That is just it...you have to be afraid at the time...you can't just "say it afterward." 

You're forgetting the fact that the physical evidence supported his story...tell me...do you really think that zimmerman is some kind of criminal mastermind who figured out a way to make it look like self defense?

It's a tragedy.  Would it be any less of a tragedy if zimmerman were in jail?


--------------------
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Fuck the Amish


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OfflineHumility
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15987285 - 03/23/12 09:35 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

You must be joking.


--------------------


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Invisiblepsychotropicwhale
Cetacean


Registered: 02/17/12
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15987356 - 03/23/12 09:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
Zimmerman made this a race and a gun issue, not Obama and liberals.




How did Zimmerman make it a race issue?  The only people I've seen make it a race issue are the usual racebaiting punks.




Audio

Enlll believes it's unclear.  I believe I clearly heard the slur while listening to the audio on a different site, that gave no indication that there even was a slur.  I guess he could be saying goon instead of coon, but I don't think so.  CNN did a nice remix.  Check it out.


--------------------


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OfflinePanfish
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: psychotropicwhale]
    #15987418 - 03/23/12 10:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Zimmerman's lawyer just did an interview on CNN. Either way he should be disbarred for how he represented him client, he was nervous and could barely speak.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Humility]
    #15987421 - 03/23/12 10:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I'm no lawyer, like Enlil, but MANSLAUGHTER at minimum seems to be the most likely charge, and he'll be convicted because he did the crime, not because he's a "mastermind"--as you know, Enlil, common criminals don't have a lot of foresight and aren't so clever.

Zappa, to answer your question, Zimmerman made it a race issue by singling out a black kid for absolutely no good reason.  Setb, I have special insight into people, including you--it's a Mentat thing--I hope that answers your question.


--------------------


The People's History


Edited by Not Quite Social (03/23/12 10:26 PM)


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