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Offlineqman
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15980907 - 03/22/12 11:38 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

qman said:
Enlil, I like your posts and agree with many of the things you have said, I know you are a attorney as well, why did you agree with the OJ verdict?




Not to derail anything, but it isn't a matter of thinking he didn't do it...The state totally failed to present anything close to a case...
I watched every second of testimony and read every word of the transcripts, and I can't see any way the jury could have found any differently.

The jurors basically said the same thing...the state didn't make a case...although most of them believed he did it.





Good enough, I am sure many that study and practice the law might come up with the same conclusion.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: psychotropicwhale]
    #15981050 - 03/22/12 12:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psychotropicwhale said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Stretching the truth a bit here...no one cheered when they were killed...They cheered when he was acquitted...




To me that's even more sick.  They were happy that he not only committed murder but also that he got away with it.




Or they cheered for an altogether different reason. Maybe they didn't think he committed the crime in the first place, you know? :grin:


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Invisiblepsychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: fireworks_god]
    #15981068 - 03/22/12 12:19 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

DNA ShmeeNA.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: psychotropicwhale]
    #15981078 - 03/22/12 12:21 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psychotropicwhale said:
DNA ShmeeNA.



Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15981439 - 03/22/12 01:45 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I feel horrible for Trayvon's family.

Prison will be hell for Zimmerman.

To me, people like Zimmerman ... their minds don't work right.  Fear and anger warp their brains.      Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.

Therian is absolutely right: that gun allowed Zimmerman to both overcome his irrational fear and exercise his rage.


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15981459 - 03/22/12 01:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.




I think that claiming to know this from your vantage point is precisely what most here are rejecting.  You cant possibly know that, and we know you cant.  If he wasnt armed it could have gone many ways, he could be the one who is dead - you dont know.


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InvisibleTherian
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15981468 - 03/22/12 01:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.




I believe he was using sarcasm there. DNA is not conclusive? WTF? I believe we should leave the ambulance chasing to you, and the DNA evidence to the geneticists. Do you understand the probability of someones DNA "fingerprint" being found on a scene, and it being of someone that is not the actual offender of a crime?

Also if it is so unreliable, then tell me how it can be used as a tool to exonerate those convicted of a crime. Perhaps it is only useful to prove someone didn't commit a crime, but never to prove that they did. Makes perfect sense to me.  You know damn well why they were dancing in the streets. Is it Ok if the caucasions riot now?


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15981488 - 03/22/12 01:53 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.




Yeah that's bullshit. He didn't do anything with a gun that he couldn't have just as easily done with his truck(actually, it would've been far easier with his truck). Everybody blames the guns. That train's never late. You want to ban alcohol? How about vehicles? They cause way more deaths than guns.

I hate to use the exact same line of reasoning as kids on the high school debate team... but it really is that absurd not to blame this on the fact that Zimmerman's a prick.


Edited by saintphotios (03/22/12 01:56 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Therian] * 1
    #15981493 - 03/22/12 01:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Therian said:
Quote:

Exactly...so few people actually understand forensic DNA..you ask most people, and they think it is conclusive evidence...When really, most DNA evidence is not very conclusive at all.




I believe he was using sarcasm there. DNA is not conclusive? WTF? I believe we should leave the ambulance chasing to you, and the DNA evidence to the geneticists. Do you understand the probability of someones DNA "fingerprint" being found on a scene, and it being of someone that is not the actual offender of a crime?

Also if it is so unreliable, then tell me how it can be used as a tool to exonerate those convicted of a crime. Perhaps it is only useful to prove someone didn't commit a crime, but never to prove that they did. Makes perfect sense to me.  You know damn well why they were dancing in the streets. Is it Ok if the caucasions riot now?



You must have watched CSI...grats...

I practice in criminal law...I have seen DNA evidence completely discredited many, many times...What you don't know is a lot...DNA is a tool...like many other tools...and it is far from infallible.


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InvisibleNot Quite Social
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15981505 - 03/22/12 01:57 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

A gun is a magical thing.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Diploid]
    #15982113 - 03/22/12 04:08 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
When you voluntarily enter a state of presumed danger, self-defense is off the table.

I don't buy it. 911 instructions are not binding on a citizen legally present in a public place where he has a right to be.






there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time
is it off the table, it is an inalienable right, cities like illinois are now
discovering it


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InvisibleHarveyWalbanger
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: schnauzer]
    #15982201 - 03/22/12 04:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

If only trayvon was old enough for a CCW...  Then we could have had a gray area gunfight, and a trial over who was in more imminent danger.


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #15982384 - 03/22/12 05:14 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time is it off the table, it is an inalienable right




"self-defense" as a legal defense can certainly be off the table.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: saintphotios]
    #15982442 - 03/22/12 05:28 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

saintphotios said:
Quote:

there's a reason it's know as the 'right to self defense' because at no time is it off the table, it is an inalienable right




"self-defense" as a legal defense can certainly be off the table.



That's true...there's no constitutional right to self-defense...States can define the right and limit it however they want...
They could even abolish it altogether if they wanted...

But, as a practical matter, self-defense is available for anyone who can prove that they were not the initial aggressor and they were reasonably in fear of imminent bodily harm.


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15982549 - 03/22/12 05:54 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

What if you were the initial aggressor and are in imminent danger of being killed?  Just a hypothetical.  Pick a fist fight, get shot at, run to your gun and shoot back.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: DieCommie]
    #15982589 - 03/22/12 06:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
What if you were the initial aggressor and are in imminent danger of being killed?  Just a hypothetical.  Pick a fist fight, get shot at, run to your gun and shoot back.



Most states allow an initial aggressor to claim self-defense in one of two situations:
1.  Cessation of hostilities - If you make clear to the other person that you no longer intend to engage in any violence, and you do, in fact, cease all attack, you can claim self-defense if he re-initiates.

2.  Sudden escalation -  If the other party suddenly escalates a non-lethal fight (that you initiated) into a lethal attack, then you can respond with deadly force...

BUT...self-defense is NOT available in mutual combat situations...so if two guys are in a fight mutually, and one calls the cops, there's no self-defense for either...The same is true for mutually lethal combat...neither side has a self defense claim...so two gangsters shooting it out in the street don't have that defense.


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Invisiblesetb
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #15983266 - 03/22/12 08:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Not Quite Social said:
I feel horrible for Trayvon's family.

Prison will be hell for Zimmerman.

To me, people like Zimmerman ... their minds don't work right.  Fear and anger warp their brains.      Like Therian said, this wouldn't have happened--the young man wouldn't be dead and Zimmerman wouldn't be going to prison (where he's surely headed)--if Zimmerman weren't armed.

Therian is absolutely right: that gun allowed Zimmerman to both overcome his irrational fear and exercise his rage.




I doubt he is going to prison; unless there is some kind of evidence that we don't know about they don't have much on him. Just because a bunch of over emotional folks are throwing a fit doesn't make him guilty of a crime. It is disgraceful that so many seem all to willing to convict the guy before the investigation is even over.

I heard that the city councilor that brought up the vote of no confidence against the police chief fainted over this- right there at the meeting. This really is unbelievable- it is like a parody, like something out of the onion.


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Invisiblepsychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: setb]
    #15984816 - 03/23/12 07:33 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't realize, until I listened to the tapes for this case, that Latinos use the racial slur coon.  I have always heard them use the n word.  This doesn't make Georgie look very good.


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InvisibleEnlilM
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: psychotropicwhale]
    #15984872 - 03/23/12 08:00 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psychotropicwhale said:
I didn't realize, until I listened to the tapes for this case, that Latinos use the racial slur coon.  I have always heard them use the n word.  This doesn't make Georgie look very good.



I can't tell for sure that he actually said that...it's not clear at all on the tape..

What IS clear on the tape is that the 911 operator didn't tell him not to follow the guy...so...that whole argument is moot.

His call also helps his self-defense claim a lot.  He's clearly not planning a murder during this call.  He's trying to get cops there...If he was up to no good, he wouldn't be on the phone with 911.

I didn't hear anything particularly damning on the other tapes, either...One person says that they saw zimmerman on top of martin, but that was AFTER the shot...that doesn't say much.


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Invisiblepsychotropicwhale
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Re: trayvon martin shooting [Re: Enlil]
    #15984885 - 03/23/12 08:07 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

It sounds crystal clear to me.  I didn't even read about what was supposed to have been said, I just listened to it.


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