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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16171544 - 05/02/12 02:26 PM (12 years, 19 days ago) |
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I recommend making prints on foil. It is a lot easier to get the spores off of foil when the receiving party decides to do some microscopy. When the spores are on paper you often get paper fibers in your images because some of the fibers come up when you scrape them off.
Why are you calling it P. caerulescens var. mazatecorum rather than just P. caerulescens?
P. zapotecorum has some lookalikes including P. subzapotecorum and P. barrerae so it might be interesting to check the microscopy on those.
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piltzintli
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16171934 - 05/02/12 03:53 PM (12 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: I recommend making prints on foil. It is a lot easier to get the spores off of foil when the receiving party decides to do some microscopy. When the spores are on paper you often get paper fibers in your images because some of the fibers come up when you scrape them off.
Why are you calling it P. caerulescens var. mazatecorum rather than just P. caerulescens?
P. zapotecorum has some lookalikes including P. subzapotecorum and P. barrerae so it might be interesting to check the microscopy on those.
You know, I actually tried foil here alongside my usual glass slides. I did the whole protocol that we use for making prints, which includes placing droplets on the caps over about a 72 hour period to keep them well-hydrated. 100% of my glass slides came out great, and only 20% of the foil prints came out thick and heavy ... the remaining 80% were just really light and not all that great. I have used foil before with cubensis and other species, and have not had problems. However, mexicana has posed a definite challenge in so far as making thick, high quality prints is concerned. This recent effort with the foil seems to suggest that these guys just plain old don´t like foil.
I am specifying var. mazatecorum here to distinguish this strain from the other caerulescens-type or derrumbe strain I was told about in Huautla de Jimenez: the so-called ´blue derrumbe.' I don´t know the specifics here, but locals made a clear distinction between two types of derrumbe. The particular sort of caerulescens I found looked verbatim like the old images that were drawn by Roger Heim and labelled ´Psilocybe caerulescens var mazatecorum,´ http://www.stainblue.com/Psilocybe_caerulescens.jpg . I never personally saw specimens of the ´blue derrumbe,´ but have seen photos that have been pointed out to me as being representative of the ´blue derrumbe.´ If you look at this image:
http://www.fungifun.org/psilosophy/img/species/psilocybe_caerulescens1.jpg
the specimen to the left is representative of what people tended to call the ´blue derrumbe.´ But, as I said ... I never found specimens of this one and don´t know the specifics of what it actually is ... maybe it is a separate species altogether, or a particular stage of Ps. caerulescens.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 17 hours
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16173097 - 05/02/12 07:25 PM (12 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
piltzintli said: You know, I actually tried foil here alongside my usual glass slides. I did the whole protocol that we use for making prints, which includes placing droplets on the caps over about a 72 hour period to keep them well-hydrated. 100% of my glass slides came out great, and only 20% of the foil prints came out thick and heavy ... the remaining 80% were just really light and not all that great. I have used foil before with cubensis and other species, and have not had problems. However, mexicana has posed a definite challenge in so far as making thick, high quality prints is concerned. This recent effort with the foil seems to suggest that these guys just plain old don´t like foil.
I don't see how mushrooms could know or care if there is glass or foil under them. It would be interesting to try it a few more times under controlled conditions.
Paper can absorb moisture and make them spore less.
Quote:
I am specifying var. mazatecorum here to distinguish this strain from the other caerulescens-type or derrumbe strain I was told about in Huautla de Jimenez: the so-called ´blue derrumbe.' I don´t know the specifics here, but locals made a clear distinction between two types of derrumbe.
There are many types of derrumbe - around 20. Many require a microscope to differentiate.
All stain blue and could be called the blue derrumbe.
I would just call it P. caerulescens unless there is some reason to call it var. mazatecorum.
It is likely that P. caerulescens var. mazatecorum is the same as regular P. caerulescens. Maybe a different strain. But every time you find a mushroom in the wild it is a different strain. The ladies in Guadalajara who are doing the Psilocybe DNA work are considering synonymizing many species which look like P. caerulescens, perhaps including villarrealiae and weilii. I think that might be a mistake. It will be interesting to see what actually gets published, and how P. caerulescens var. mazatecorum fits into this.
I can not find any information on Psilocybe caerulescens var. mazatecorum and I think that it is an invalid name.
I checked google and the Guzman monograph.
The only other place I can think to check is where the name was originally published, Revue Mycol., Paris 22: 78 (1957). But the Mexican mycology done in the 50's is crap and I doubt that document would have anything valuable to add.
A bunch of gringos went to Mexico in the 50's and described a bunch of species and varieties, but their work wasn't very good, the type collections sucked and many have been lost, leaving modern mycologists with no idea what they were talking about and it is difficult or impossible to apply their names to modern collections. In many cases microscopy wasn't done at all, and when it was, it was often wrong and they did not notice obvious things like pleurocystidia.
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piltzintli
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#16173317 - 05/02/12 08:02 PM (12 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
I don't see how mushrooms could know or care if there is glass or foil under them. It would be interesting to try it a few more times under controlled conditions.
Paper can absorb moisture and make them spore less.
The only thing I can think is that there may be some electrostatic force at work that causes the mushroom to either hold onto or drop their spore material; and the foil perhaps has some effect on the electrostatics. But yea, you would want more of a controlled experimental protocol to determine that definitively. In the case of paper, I am sure the absorptive properties--like you say--are why the spores did not readily lay. Basically the caps dried out very rapidly.
I may try another set of foil prints, but the effect was pretty marked from what I could tell. I was basically taking both glass and foil prints under the same conditions in the same spot. 10 foil prints and 30 glass prints; all 30 glass prints came out great, and only 2/10 foil prints were even worth wrapping up. It is worth noting here, that I DID in fact take the original wild-prints on foil; I have not looked at the original prints in quite a long time, so don´t remember how light they were. I do know that the glass prints really came out nicely.
One very interesting thing I did notice, was that when I vacuum sealed the carpophores on this last flush ... a large amount of spore material arranged itself along the surface of the bag, almost as if they were iron filings under the influence of a magnet ... it had all the appearance of an electrostatic effect. Anyhow, given these observations I do wonder what the deal is here.
I think it is fairly clear in talking with you, that there is a very real ambiguity in terms of clear taxonomy and nomenclature on Ps. caerulescens. The particular nomenclature I have found myself using in regards to my own collection has been pretty ambiguous. The mycologist I was working with out in Huautla referred to the particular collection I made using the terms ´mazatecorum,' as well as ´nigripe.´ My own use of the term ´mazatecorum' was largely impressed on me by a copy of "Les Champignons Hallucinogenes du Mexique" we had on hand. The book contained these beautiful reproductions of the watercolor images painted by Roger Heim. I was particularly impressed in some way by a watercolor image that he labelled ´Psilocybe caerulescens var. mazatecorum.´
I have neither the Heim text nor the Guzman text on hand; in fact I unfortunately left a number of my mushroom texts out in mexico. It seems like particularly guzman´s text would be useful to have on hand as a reference. So, the short of it is that I don´t precisely know exactly what I have in terms of a variegen, but know there are several. I guess we shall see if we can fruit them and arrive at some definitive sort of answer here as to what sort of caerulescens this in fact is.
Edited by piltzintli (05/02/12 08:20 PM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16173725 - 05/02/12 09:05 PM (12 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
piltzintli said: I may try another set of foil prints, but the effect was pretty marked from what I could tell. I was basically taking both glass and foil prints under the same conditions in the same spot. 10 foil prints and 30 glass prints; all 30 glass prints came out great, and only 2/10 foil prints were even worth wrapping up. It is worth noting here, that I DID in fact take the original wild-prints on foil; I have not looked at the original prints in quite a long time, so don´t remember how light they were. I do know that the glass prints really came out nicely.
You could lay the mushrooms half on glass and half on foil and see how the prints come out.
Quote:
I think it is fairly clear in talking with you, that there is a very real ambiguity in terms of clear taxonomy and nomenclature on Ps. caerulescens. The particular nomenclature I have found myself using in regards to my own collection has been pretty ambiguous. The mycologist I was working with out in Huautla referred to the particular collection I made using the terms ´mazatecorum,' as well as ´nigripe.´ My own use of the term ´mazatecorum' was largely impressed on me by a copy of "Les Champignons Hallucinogenes du Mexique" we had on hand. The book contained these beautiful reproductions of the watercolor images painted by Roger Heim. I was particularly impressed in some way by a watercolor image that he labelled ´Psilocybe caerulescens var. mazatecorum.´
The black ones are well known in many mountains in Oaxaca. Some people call them Psilocybe caerulescens var. nigripes.
Quote:
I guess we shall see if we can fruit them and arrive at some definitive sort of answer here as to what sort of caerulescens this in fact is.
It would be interesting to compare your pictures with with some of captain future's work in section Cordisporae.
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RogerRabbit
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16174385 - 05/02/12 10:47 PM (12 years, 18 days ago) |
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Wax paper is good for prints. Be careful because the spores don't stick to the wax, remaining loose. Fold well and tape to make sure the spores stay where they're supposed to. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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piltzintli
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16185934 - 05/05/12 12:27 PM (12 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
It would be interesting to compare your pictures with with some of captain future's work in section Cordisporae.
I will post my photos (too bad about the poor quality tho) of that Cordisporae you helped with the prelim-ID on ... I actually have alot of spore material of that one, but they do not at all take well to my conventional agar-protocol ... the mycellium is quite unusual, it is more like a Lion´s Mane on agar.
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piltzintli
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: RogerRabbit]
#16185941 - 05/05/12 12:30 PM (12 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Wax paper is good for prints. Be careful because the spores don't stick to the wax, remaining loose. Fold well and tape to make sure the spores stay where they're supposed to. RR
That was going to be our next effort, I honestly thought straight paper would work just fine. But, wax paper next and perhaps a little more experimentation with foil (which is just so convenient to use).
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elfstone
Initiate



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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16190006 - 05/06/12 11:22 AM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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Just to illustrate the morphological differences between different strains of Ps. mexicana, here is a photo of the strain previously released by sporeworks as "strain-b:"
-------------------- γνῶθι σεαυτόν gnōthi seauton know thyself
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x7x_x7x
x7x, my problem child.




Registered: 05/05/07
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16190665 - 05/06/12 02:42 PM (12 years, 15 days ago) |
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Quote:
piltzintli said: I tend to get transient nausea and a swollen-itchy throat with the sclerotia as well.
i remember my first year taking mushrooms, i grown mazatapec. before the effects starts, i feel the flavor of the mushroom again in my throat. during the strongest part of the experience, i feel itchy skin and see my face with light dark spots. nowadays, only feel the itchy skin sometimes.
-------------------- cultivando en la miseria SuctoSpore® Pictorial Tek
 x7x_x7x@shroomery.org carl_jung_in_lsd@yahoo.com koh samui and oak ridge are my favourite strains
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MagicCarpetRide89
Sideways Traveler



Registered: 12/24/11
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Loc: usa
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: elfstone]
#16243150 - 05/16/12 11:22 PM (12 years, 4 days ago) |
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Thank you Elfstone for you words and for sharing your experiences and for going into some in depth info. I was very interested in what you had to share. So interested that I may want to try my hand at this new found species! I'll be your thread
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bukujutsu

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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: MagicCarpetRide89]
#16286324 - 05/26/12 12:31 AM (11 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hey guys, unfortunately I can only receive regular flat envelopes, so I can't get a print from OP or elfstone.
If anyone has one I'd love to work with this strain and donate prints once it's grown.
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truskool
WTF?? FTW!!



Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 11,194
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: bukujutsu]
#16286726 - 05/26/12 06:34 AM (11 years, 11 months ago) |
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It begins.
-------------------- Ask AMU for the best mycology advice out there
Roll it While I troll it. I don't mean to boast, but dam if I don't brag.
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Merkabah


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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: piltzintli]
#16364687 - 06/11/12 06:28 AM (11 years, 11 months ago) |
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This thread has helped me out a bunch. Thanks elf, plitz and everyone else!
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x7x_x7x
x7x, my problem child.




Registered: 05/05/07
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Merkabah]
#16599340 - 07/27/12 11:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
-------------------- cultivando en la miseria SuctoSpore® Pictorial Tek
 x7x_x7x@shroomery.org carl_jung_in_lsd@yahoo.com koh samui and oak ridge are my favourite strains
Edited by x7x_x7x (07/27/12 12:23 PM)
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OoBYCoO
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: x7x_x7x]
#16600980 - 07/27/12 05:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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That thing is bad ass!
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truskool
WTF?? FTW!!



Registered: 06/28/09
Posts: 11,194
Loc: Over the rainbow
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: OoBYCoO]
#16610933 - 07/29/12 01:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- Ask AMU for the best mycology advice out there
Roll it While I troll it. I don't mean to boast, but dam if I don't brag.
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MagicCarpetRide89
Sideways Traveler



Registered: 12/24/11
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Loc: usa
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: truskool]
#16669149 - 08/09/12 01:41 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Let me find out Tru that you got some luck there Sorry I haven't been around, loot of shit to talk about but not know
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: MagicCarpetRide89] 2
#16671806 - 08/09/12 03:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am in Huautla de Jiminez right now. It has been raining the past 4 days, and rained all day today. There are some cool mushrooms here. I'll be here another week. Where is this Chicon Nindo place?
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x7x_x7x
x7x, my problem child.




Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 3,818
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Re: New strain of Ps. Mexicana from Eastern slope of Chicon Nindo in Huatla de Jimenez [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#16681554 - 08/11/12 11:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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hello everybody, could somebody please send me a print? thanks 
-------------------- cultivando en la miseria SuctoSpore® Pictorial Tek
 x7x_x7x@shroomery.org carl_jung_in_lsd@yahoo.com koh samui and oak ridge are my favourite strains
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