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Invisiblejohnm214
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A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population.
    #15926329 - 03/09/12 07:40 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

I've become increasing distressed at what seems to be an almost religious-like "green" movement.  There seems to be a great deal of talk of the "original sin" of mankind and the need for atonment.  Among the proposals are increasingly-totalitarian regulations on the lives of people.

Yet despite all this fervor, it seems one option is among the most likely to succeed and help humans live a better life: reduce the population.

Amongst the problems that would be addressed are the increasingly problematic energy shortages, waste disposal problems, and pollution and environmental contamination in general.

Would a reduction in population not represent a truely useful strategy if it could be enacted?

To be sure, I'm not arguing for government oversight here, meerly a social movement that recognizes the world has enough people (and unwanted, uncared for, children).

What do you think?  I can see a number of problems in this approach, but they seem at first glance to be minor compared to the gains.  The religious, as always, will represent a signifigant, hysterical and illogical, opposition to this approach in those cases where their scriptures and 'holy men' command them to "be fruitful and multiply" and take no care for tomorrow, but is this approach worth a serious consideration by the more rational?

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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214]
    #15926442 - 03/09/12 08:04 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

There is a movement about this actually. I forget what they are called, but they call for the complete voluntary stop for reproduction.

I often try to track problems back to their source, even if it comes to an end I don't prefer. And this is one of those. Society just cant function this way, humans are built to consume consume consume, its so we actually kept trying to stay alive. Now that we have the power to consume everything the world has to offer, the only way to keep humans alive is to kill some.

The original way nature worked was to control population by killing people with starvation/being eaten if there were too many people. When there are a lot of resources people thrive. Without this ebb and flow the human race is doomed

Honestly pills are a huge part of this IMO. An average lifespan of 76 is disgusting, we weren't meant to live that long. Keeping old people alive is totally resource-draining.

Either way it means one of two things, reproduction control or population control. Both are super nazi-ish but are also our only possible savior. It sad but true


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214]
    #15927859 - 03/10/12 12:59 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

The terraforming of Mars looks better and better everyday.

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OfflineEagle
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: bloodsheen]
    #15927949 - 03/10/12 01:19 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:
There is a movement about this actually. I forget what they are called, but they call for the complete voluntary stop for reproduction.

There gay's that head that movement. You hear them refer to normal people as "breeders". Sick if you ask me.

Also I don't support any reduction on people. Its too fun making more.:crazy2:

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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214]
    #15928393 - 03/10/12 05:34 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

It would be a dangerous strategy for this reason:

Only intelligent/ rational people would adhere to such a social movement (say, making it socially unacceptab;e to have more than 2 offspring.)

So you end up with retards populating the world.


I think a movement against religious institutions would have to precede.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214] * 1
    #15928508 - 03/10/12 07:13 AM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
I've become increasing distressed at what seems to be an almost religious-like "green" movement.  There seems to be a great deal of talk of the "original sin" of mankind and the need for atonment.  Among the proposals are increasingly-totalitarian regulations on the lives of people.

Yet despite all this fervor, it seems one option is among the most likely to succeed and help humans live a better life: reduce the population.

Amongst the problems that would be addressed are the increasingly problematic energy shortages, waste disposal problems, and pollution and environmental contamination in general.

Would a reduction in population not represent a truely useful strategy if it could be enacted?

To be sure, I'm not arguing for government oversight here, meerly a social movement that recognizes the world has enough people (and unwanted, uncared for, children).

What do you think?  I can see a number of problems in this approach, but they seem at first glance to be minor compared to the gains.  The religious, as always, will represent a signifigant, hysterical and illogical, opposition to this approach in those cases where their scriptures and 'holy men' command them to "be fruitful and multiply" and take no care for tomorrow, but is this approach worth a serious consideration by the more rational?




The problem with any "movement" is that it is always a minority of the population that will participate.  Even if all of the western world participated, it wouldn't come close to being effective.  The population growth isn't an issue everywhere.  In the US, the population has been pretty stable.  The problem is that population is growing in parts of the world were education and information are not as readily available.  In these places, people aren't worrying about population growth as much because they aren't as tuned into the big picture.  I don't agree with the poster about intelligence and rationality being the issue...but I do think that current growth problem exists in places that do not have the same information infrastructure and availability that we do.  As a result, such a movement is unlikely to catch on among the people for whom it is needed the most.

I would, however, be all in favor of a massive epidemic, war, or famine that reduces the population by a few billion...just to buy us some breathing room and time to work on the problem.


As far as the guy who said we "weren't meant to live" to 76...that is simply silly....we weren't "meant" for anything...there's no plan involved...it just is what it is.  People living longer is what allows us to advance technology...the older teach the younger once they are no longer viable as innovators...then the younger can start from a more advanced level than they would have if they had started from scratch.



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Edited by Enlil (03/10/12 07:18 AM)

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Offline4896744
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15929248 - 03/10/12 12:43 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Desert Elf said:
It would be a dangerous strategy for this reason:

Only intelligent/ rational people would adhere to such a social movement (say, making it socially unacceptab;e to have more than 2 offspring.)

So you end up with retards populating the world.





Exactly, and this is already happening.

One idea I thought of is government incentives to have less kids. The government could also offer free birth control and abortions. This coupled with a cultural shift away from outdated religious motivated action could make a huge impact in population imo.


--------------------
Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214] * 2
    #15929267 - 03/10/12 12:51 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Im skeptical for a couple reasons.  First, I dont think overpopulation is as big of a problem as its billed to be.  There are enough resources for everybody.  The reason people live in poverty is dysfunctional societies, systems and cultures.  Second, I think that humans are already stabilizing in our population.  The rate of population growth is shrinking and we are set to find an equilibrium in the very near future  (from a species perspective, a couple hundred years).

But then, I am only appealing to humanity alone here not the 'environment' as a whole.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: bloodsheen]
    #15929292 - 03/10/12 12:55 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:
the only way to keep humans alive is to kill some.





It's certainly not the only way, just one of the more unimaginative solutions. See below:

Quote:


humans are built to consume consume consume




They are also built to produce produce produce. There's your answer. :wink:



Quote:


Without this ebb and flow the human race is doomed




Doubtful.

Quote:


An average lifespan of 76 is disgusting, we weren't meant to live that long.




This statement is pure nonsense. The baffling thing about the statement is where this sense of "meant to" originates. Are humans breaking the rules? Was there a code of conduct for living beings that has been bypassed?

Quote:


Keeping old people alive is totally resource-draining.




Keeping young people alive is totally resource-draining. Keeping babies alive is totally resource-draining. Using light bulbs is totally resource-draining.

Quote:

Both are super nazi-ish but are also our only possible savior. It sad but true




You say it's true, but it's not evident in the slightest.


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: 4896744]
    #15929297 - 03/10/12 12:57 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
One idea I thought of is government incentives to have less kids.




Or at least stop giving incentives for having kids. Tax breaks for having children is bullshit.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offline4896744
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: fireworks_god] * 1
    #15929311 - 03/10/12 01:00 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

iThink said:
One idea I thought of is government incentives to have less kids.




Or at least stop giving incentives for having kids. Tax breaks for having children is bullshit.





Foreal, it just strengthens the cycle of poverty.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: 4896744]
    #15930163 - 03/10/12 05:02 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

iThink said:
One idea I thought of is government incentives to have less kids.




Or at least stop giving incentives for having kids. Tax breaks for having children is bullshit.





Foreal, it just strengthens the cycle of poverty.



Do you have any idea how much it costs to raise a kid? If you think people are sitting there thinking "You know, if we had some kids we would get a 1k tax credit at the end of every fiscal year" you don't know people. If you didn't have this credit kids in poor families would get even less than they already get from their parents. Sorry timmy, no new coat this year


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog

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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: 4896744]
    #15930191 - 03/10/12 05:08 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

There was a meeting some years ago with Bill Ayers (The guy that started Obama's career that lived near Obama but Obama claims is 'just another guy in the hood) at Harvard U, with a bunch of left wing professors and pundits.  In this meeting it was discussed if they could get their form of government installed, they would need 'reeducation camps' for those who wouldn't accept the new government. They also stated a need to reduce the population and discussed ways to 'Get rid of 25~45 million people'


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OfflineTri High
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: bloodsheen]
    #15930192 - 03/10/12 05:08 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

One of my life goals is to spread my seed as far and as wide and as much as possible.

So go ahead and not have kids.  More wombs for me to inhabit.


--------------------
you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15930869 - 03/10/12 08:20 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Im skeptical for a couple reasons.  First, I dont think overpopulation is as big of a problem as its billed to be.  There are enough resources for everybody. 




Clearly, its not like the people who exist now are living on nothing- their existance proves this is the case.

The question I ask is: is this population (let alone the growth reasonably anticipated) sustainable? Second: Is this population desirable.

I doubt the second and have reason to question the former.  I'm sure we could drastically reduce our energy consumption and resource usage, but why would we want to?  A reduction in population could allow for more resources for ourselves and the future generations and there is reason to suspect that it could reduce the incidences of antisocial behavior that population density is suspected to lead to.

As a practical matter, the green movement is not going away, and I'm sure we're going to see government repression of economic and personal freedoms that could likely be aleviated by reducing the severity of any perceived problem (real or imagined).

Quote:

The reason people live in poverty is dysfunctional societies, systems and cultures.




That's the reason people who allready exist live in poverty, but by preventing the production of those people, you prevent their living in poverty.  If those breeding are more likely to produce people who live in the conditions you mentioned, than a per capita benefit to society would be realized.  (though then again, its quite possible those who might heed the call to restrain their reproduction wouldn't be those who's children tend to cause the problems in the first place)

Quote:



  Second, I think that humans are already stabilizing in our population.  The rate of population growth is shrinking and we are set to find an equilibrium in the very near future  (from a species perspective, a couple hundred years).




Sure, that's inevitable, but it has nothing to do with the quality of life question, which is the primary consideration that leads me to consider this as a worthy solution to investigate.

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Offline4896744
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: johnm214]
    #15931949 - 03/11/12 01:07 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

As long as the next few generations aren't facing a huge threat as a result of overpopulation, I doubt anything will be done. Once shit heads south my guess is that humans will be able to adapt to such a crisis, but I would bet that it's going to be very violent.

Luckily I will be dead before then, so it is of no concern to me.


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #15933063 - 03/11/12 12:28 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Im skeptical for a couple reasons.  First, I dont think overpopulation is as big of a problem as its billed to be.  There are enough resources for everybody.




Yeah, but wouldn't it be awesome if we didn't need most environmental laws and if the price of food and vital resources was much lower? 

All the extra regulations that are passed due to problems of sustaining large populations create a drag on the economy resulting increased cost of goods and lowered output. 

National parks are so overcrowded I hardly even want to go anymore.

My car could have a massive overpowered engine and still cost half as much and run on fuel that costs $1/gallon if there weren't so many other people with cars out there...

Trash and sewage disposal would be cheaper while being less of a potential problem to begin with. 

Who knows, maybe I could even afford to build a house on a decent amount of land some day...

Quote:


The reason people live in poverty is dysfunctional societies, systems and cultures.  Second, I think that humans are already stabilizing in our population.  The rate of population growth is shrinking and we are set to find an equilibrium in the very near future  (from a species perspective, a couple hundred years).




I predict a forced decline in population much sooner due to dwindling access to key resources.  After which, a smaller equilibrium population will eek by at subsistence levels.

Quote:


But then, I am only appealing to humanity alone here not the 'environment' as a whole.




This would be only for the sake of humanity, the environment doesn't really care...

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #15933415 - 03/11/12 01:57 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

ChuangTzu said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Im skeptical for a couple reasons.  First, I dont think overpopulation is as big of a problem as its billed to be.  There are enough resources for everybody.




Yeah, but wouldn't it be awesome if we didn't need most environmental laws and if the price of food and vital resources was much lower? 

All the extra regulations that are passed due to problems of sustaining large populations create a drag on the economy resulting increased cost of goods and lowered output. 

National parks are so overcrowded I hardly even want to go anymore.

My car could have a massive overpowered engine and still cost half as much and run on fuel that costs $1/gallon if there weren't so many other people with cars out there...

Trash and sewage disposal would be cheaper while being less of a potential problem to begin with. 

Who knows, maybe I could even afford to build a house on a decent amount of land some day...




There is not one single shred of evidence to support these assertions. 
Quote:



Quote:


The reason people live in poverty is dysfunctional societies, systems and cultures.  Second, I think that humans are already stabilizing in our population.  The rate of population growth is shrinking and we are set to find an equilibrium in the very near future  (from a species perspective, a couple hundred years).




I predict a forced decline in population much sooner due to dwindling access to key resources.  After which, a smaller equilibrium population will eek by at subsistence levels.

Quote:


But then, I am only appealing to humanity alone here not the 'environment' as a whole.




This would be only for the sake of humanity, the environment doesn't really care...




Humanity is part of the environment.

Every time I hear this routine about how fewer people would be beneficial I respond, "You first."


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OfflineChuangTzu
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #15934989 - 03/11/12 08:30 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is not one single shred of evidence to support these assertions. 




There's no evidence that there are so many people at national parks that I hardly want to go to them anymore?  What do you want, a sworn affidavit?

Quote:


Humanity is part of the environment.




So what? 

Quote:


Every time I hear this routine about how fewer people would be beneficial I respond, "You first."




Where'd you get the idea that I wanted to off anyone?

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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
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Re: A rational and fair environmentalist movement: reduce the population. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15935278 - 03/11/12 09:23 PM (12 years, 19 days ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Im skeptical for a couple reasons.  First, I dont think overpopulation is as big of a problem as its billed to be.  There are enough resources for everybody.  The reason people live in poverty is dysfunctional societies, systems and cultures.  Second, I think that humans are already stabilizing in our population.  The rate of population growth is shrinking and we are set to find an equilibrium in the very near future  (from a species perspective, a couple hundred years).

But then, I am only appealing to humanity alone here not the 'environment' as a whole.




the amount of arable land continues to shrink considerably. Fresh water sources are declining. The Ocean is in the middle of what can be comparable to a extinction event, and the climate is shifting to a hotter one. Overpopulation is a bigger issue then you make it out to be.

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