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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16052800 - 04/06/12 01:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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This partially depends on what you mean by "legalized".
A simplistic argument goes like this: Most people agree that drug use results in harm. Harm to the individual AND harm to society at large. Our goal should be to reduce that harm.
1. Legalization may be a more effective means to reduce the harms caused by drug use.
2. Our current system (criminalization) has not produced adequate results in reducing the harms caused by drugs.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Enlil
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: badchad]
#16055771 - 04/07/12 05:03 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: This partially depends on what you mean by "legalized".
A simplistic argument goes like this: Most people agree that drug use results in harm. Harm to the individual AND harm to society at large. Our goal should be to reduce that harm.
1. Legalization may be a more effective means to reduce the harms caused by drug use.
2. Our current system (criminalization) has not produced adequate results in reducing the harms caused by drugs.
Both of those are true statements...and in a world in which the only two choices are legalization and our current prohibition, sure...legalization would be the better of the two..
But those aren't the only two choices...between those two choices, there are countless possible variations including mixtures of criminalization, civil regulation, and full legalization...
That's why it's too simplistic...it isn't an all or nothing proposition.
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Visionary Tools



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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16057262 - 04/07/12 02:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said: Why should they be illegal? We live in a day and age when it's ok for gay sex and the government doesn't imprison people for it (like they did to alan turing and then chemically castrating him).
So if it's ok for me to take cock anally, why not dmt? Under common law I'm not injuring anyone and I'm not stealing it if I bought it from someone. It's only because of maritime law saying we're no better than livestock, property of the government. And that government, thinking it owns us, feels entitled to say what we can and cannot do.
Lol..your common law/maritime law explanation makes no sense whatsoever...
The reason certain drugs are illegal is because of the perception that drugs harm more than just the user. The perception is that drugs often lead to addiction and that addiction is very harmful to society...
You might disagree with that perception, but that is the perception that drives drug prohibition.
The best way to get the law changed is to start working on changing that perception...
The drugs harm society because they are outlawed, meaning it provides a stream of revenue for outlaws, with the power and other benefits that entails. By making them illegal that creates the problems.
Under common law, if you are not harming someone, or depriving them of their property or trespassing (violating their security, which in this day and age means not hacking into someone's account as well as walking into their house without prior invitation) then it is permitted. Anything not explicitly forbidden would be allowed. However, in our society (Europe, USA, Commonwealth, and to a large part the rest of the world) anything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden.
Others have talked and detailed in depth the difference between common and commercial law, I don't know much about it because I have an aversion to sophistry so my understanding is simplistic.
The way it was told to me whilst in prison is vested interests want to keep drugs illegal because for them (police, prison industry, court service, auxiliary services such as rehabilitation, probation) that keeps them in employment.
Oh, and all the banks who get to launder than money, they'd loose that revenue stream to the government if drugs were legalised.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,485
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Visionary Tools said: Why should they be illegal? We live in a day and age when it's ok for gay sex and the government doesn't imprison people for it (like they did to alan turing and then chemically castrating him).
So if it's ok for me to take cock anally, why not dmt? Under common law I'm not injuring anyone and I'm not stealing it if I bought it from someone. It's only because of maritime law saying we're no better than livestock, property of the government. And that government, thinking it owns us, feels entitled to say what we can and cannot do.
Lol..your common law/maritime law explanation makes no sense whatsoever...
The reason certain drugs are illegal is because of the perception that drugs harm more than just the user. The perception is that drugs often lead to addiction and that addiction is very harmful to society...
You might disagree with that perception, but that is the perception that drives drug prohibition.
The best way to get the law changed is to start working on changing that perception...
The drugs harm society because they are outlawed, meaning it provides a stream of revenue for outlaws, with the power and other benefits that entails. By making them illegal that creates the problems.
Under common law, if you are not harming someone, or depriving them of their property or trespassing (violating their security, which in this day and age means not hacking into someone's account as well as walking into their house without prior invitation) then it is permitted. Anything not explicitly forbidden would be allowed. However, in our society (Europe, USA, Commonwealth, and to a large part the rest of the world) anything that is not explicitly allowed is forbidden.
Others have talked and detailed in depth the difference between common and commercial law, I don't know much about it because I have an aversion to sophistry so my understanding is simplistic.
The way it was told to me whilst in prison is vested interests want to keep drugs illegal because for them (police, prison industry, court service, auxiliary services such as rehabilitation, probation) that keeps them in employment.
Oh, and all the banks who get to launder than money, they'd loose that revenue stream to the government if drugs were legalised.
I really wouldn't listen to prison wisdom...it's usually quite inaccurate...
In the US, everything that is not expressly forbidden is allowed...I don't know where you got the idea that it is otherwise..
And certainly there are harms from the current scheme of prohibition...but not all of the societal harm of drug addiction comes from prohibition...
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sonamdrukpa
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16061191 - 04/08/12 02:19 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: And certainly there are harms from the current scheme of prohibition...but not all of the societal harm of drug addiction comes from prohibition...
I think that hits upon the main argument for decriminalization - the societal harms from drug addiction that are not caused by prohibition are largely unaffected by criminalizing behavior. People simply do drugs regardless of whether or not they are illegal. And whatever non-prohibitionary harms from drug addiction you think there are that are averted or diminished by criminalizing behavior, I doubt they are outweighed by the harm to individuals and communities caused by incarceration.
That doesn't lead necessarily to full-on legalization, and I think you agree up to this point, but I don't think running with this argument all the way to legalization of the type we have for alcohol or tobacco is necessarily absurd. The most typical move I see at this point in the argument is to claim that full-on legalization would have enormous societal consequences - we would become a society full of addicts, productivity would plummet, accidents and overdoses would rise, and for god's sake would someone think of the children.
Thing is, I don't think there's a really good case for thinking that. Alcohol is one of the most addictive drugs out there. I'm having trouble finding the page, but I read a scientific survey of conditional addiction rates - how often people get addicted to drugs after using them once - and alcohol was more addictive (at 12%, I believe) than heroine or cocaine (which were like 7% and 4%, respectively, again I believe). Yet society has little problem dealing with the legalization of a drug that is not only more addictive than "hard" drugs, but is in many ways more dangerous to non-users than many hard drugs - would you rather fight (or even be around) a man high on heroin, or a man drunk on beer?
Not only that, addictive behaviors are in many cases caused not so much by drugs as by the environment that drug users are in. For instance, heroin addiction was rampant in Vietnam but pretty much disappeared once people were happy and safe back in the US.
The thing to remember is that there was a historical period - the late 1800s and early 1900s - where drugs like cocaine, heroine, opium, marijuana tinctures, etc. were, for all intents and purposes, just as legal as they would be in your wildest doomsday situation. You could go to your local pharmacist and pick any of these things up without a prescription, it was legal to advertise them (which is what I see as one of the scariest anti-legalization arguments: what if they could make a "Joe the Camel" for spliffs or heroin-chasing tubes?), and many products made from these drugs were even targeted towards children. Despite all of this, society did not cease to exist. In fact, it went along pretty well. Of course, that was a different historical period, and prohibition has already probably caused some permanent damage to our nation's attitudes and behaviors towards drugs, but I think we vastly underestimate how powerful shaming, social norms, and the fact that people generally do not get addicted to even the hardest of drugs would be in a full-on legalization scenario.
Edit: I didn't find the page I had been thinking of, but this is pretty much it. Check it out - it's a great read on how addictive substances actually are. So...heroin and crack are actually pretty bad. I haven't really sat down and digested it yet, but it seems like pretty much everything else is at least decently non-addictive. The worst besides heroin and crack is stimulants (put in a general group, though, which does flub the result somewhat), which have a 7-to-1 rate of non-dependent to dependent use 1 year after first administration and a 59% complete quit rate. To compare, alcohol has a 20-1 rate of non-dependency to dependency after 1 year and a 26% quit rate, and weed has a 9-to-1 rate of non-dependency to dependency and a 52% quit rate.
Edited by sonamdrukpa (04/08/12 02:32 PM)
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Drew7
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16202790 - 05/08/12 11:31 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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First, I would like to argue against drugs being illegal federally (disregard this if you are not from the United States). The legality of drugs is a state issue (see 10th Amendment) of which the federal government has no right controlling.
Now as to why I, personally, believe why drugs should not be illegal: 1. I believe actions that harm others should be illegal, not actions that may lead to actions that harm others. Drug addicts sometimes steal from others to support their habit. Well, stealing is illegal and the addict can and should be prosecuted for that alone. Using drugs should not be made illegal simply because drug users sometimes break OTHER laws (laws which are punishable in and of themselves). Note, however, that I do accept the need for exceptions to this rule regarding situations that, more often than not, lead to harm being done to others (for example driving while intoxicated or shooting a gun toward a crowd of people).
2. I believe that laws should be consistent. If alcohol is considered acceptable for legal recreational use, why, then, should less problematic drugs not also be legalized (assuming alcohol to be the bar setter)? The prime example for this debate is marijuana, which does not lead to death, addiction, or aggression and minimally impairs driving skills (which should be irrelevant, since assuming marijuana were legal, driving under the influence would most likely not be) but is still illegal (as are many other drugs somewhere between marijuana and alcohol in terms of associated problems). So again I ask, if alcohol is suitable to be legal, why are marijuana, LSD, MDMA, psilocybin, DMT, mescalin, etc. not?
3. I think I've covered the perceived negatives enough for now, so let me focus now on the positives of drugs. Drugs are used for pain relief, relaxation, meditation, psychological exploration, and sheer, miscellaneous amusement. People want to use drugs. From the non-user perspective, there are also positives. Although I am not in support of taxes similar to the ridiculous "cancer research"/"increase price to motivate you to quit smoking" tobacco taxes, there is a lot of sales tax to be acquired from the legal sale of drugs. This does not make a very good primary argument (as you have already mentioned), but on top of my other arguments, does it really make sense to spent billions of dollars fighting to keep something illegal when you could be making billions by simply legalizing it?
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination



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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16214484 - 05/11/12 10:33 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I can see this from a couple of different perspectives
1. Assuming that we believe in the good of society, whatever that means, then its simply a cost benefit analysis. We can see the costs of illegalization because that is the reality before us. These costs include huge incomes to criminal gangs and terrorists, a corrupting influence on police, and impurities that make drug use more dangerous. What is the cost of drug legalization? You could say more addicts and you're probably right, but how many more? The problem is we don't know.
I don't think drugs should be kept illegal simply because we can't calculate the cost to society of making them legal.
2. I don't think it makes sense to make things illegal simply because it might hurt society and has no benefit to society. If we use that logic we could make just about everything fun in life illegal, for example recreational driving. You want to drive to the movies for your own selfish enjoyment but you're directly putting other people at risk by driving a ton of steel at high speed to get there.
I think societies should have the courage to allow their individuals to take risks.
Personally I see little value in trying to live a secure life. I see our society as a bunch of zombies numbing themselves with a false sense of security. When you jump out of a plane you wake up and feel alive. That risky experience shouldn't be illegal simply because it doesn't contribute any material goods to society.
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Enlil
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Freedom]
#16214581 - 05/11/12 11:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: I can see this from a couple of different perspectives
1. Assuming that we believe in the good of society, whatever that means, then its simply a cost benefit analysis. We can see the costs of illegalization because that is the reality before us. These costs include huge incomes to criminal gangs and terrorists, a corrupting influence on police, and impurities that make drug use more dangerous. What is the cost of drug legalization? You could say more addicts and you're probably right, but how many more? The problem is we don't know.
I don't think drugs should be kept illegal simply because we can't calculate the cost to society of making them legal.
I agree with this, but I don't think this is an either/or proposition...Certainly, the current system of prohibition and incarceration is completely ridiculous and ineffective...But that doesn't mean that there is no alternative other than legalization...
I can see possibilities where certain currently banned substances could be legalized...others should probably stay illegal but not criminal to possess...and money that is currently used to incarcerate people could be diverted to different types of treatment programs.
We agree that jail is absolutely no place to put an addict...but I think there is a difference when we're talking about drug dealers and distributors...These are people who are selling dangerous and addictive products to the public for profit...Many aren't even users of the drugs. They know fully well how much harm the substance they sell can cause, and yet they sell it to someone without any warning or sense of responsibility...That is a somewhat less sympathetic position in my opinion...
Quote:
2. I don't think it makes sense to make things illegal simply because it might hurt society and has no benefit to society. If we use that logic we could make just about everything fun in life illegal, for example recreational driving. You want to drive to the movies for your own selfish enjoyment but you're directly putting other people at risk by driving a ton of steel at high speed to get there.
I think societies should have the courage to allow their individuals to take risks.
Again...I agree with this to a point...risk is ubiquitous...and a society cannot protect people from themselves in every case...but I think even you agree that there is a line above which society should protect its members...Certainly, you agree that some substances are so dangerous that possession of those substances should not be allowed by the general public...We only disagree on where to draw the line.
I also think that there is a difference between something that causes bodily harm to oneself and something that has a high potential to cause addiction. From my life experiences, I have formed the opinion that drug addiction is among the most powerful motivators of human conduct....more so than sex...more so than money...more so than even preservation of life. In that sense, addiction is completely incompatible with any rational notion of "freedom." For me, fighting drug addiction IS a strong societal interest...
Of course, not all drug use is drug addiction...and some drugs are worse than others in terms of addiction rate and addiction severity...I would argue that heroin is a substance for which there is no "safe" way to use...use it long enough and you will be addicted...the same could not be said of some other illegal drugs...This is why the analysis, for me, isn't as simple as "all drugs should be legal" or "all drugs should be illegal."
Quote:
Personally I see little value in trying to live a secure life. I see our society as a bunch of zombies numbing themselves with a false sense of security. When you jump out of a plane you wake up and feel alive. That risky experience shouldn't be illegal simply because it doesn't contribute any material goods to society.
Again...I agree with you on this. For me, it comes down to some simple facts:
1. Drug addiction can be incredibly destructive to the individual addict and people around him. 2. Drug addiction is FAR too common in our society. 3. Drug addiction undermines the productivity and security of our society
To me, those add up to a societal interest in reducing addiction. We agree that incarceration is completely ineffective at achieving that interest....but I don't think legalization will do it either...
On the other side, I also believe:
1. People should have the autonomy to do what they choose. 2. People should be able to knowingly engage in conduct that risks their health.
Both of these are undercut a bit by my belief that a drug addict...once addicted...isn't really "choosing" anything in the same way that a skydiver is choosing to dive...Perhaps slamming diesel was originally a choice...but becoming a slave to the addiction almost certainly wasn't.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16214638 - 05/11/12 11:17 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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So then one might imagine a scenario where criminal penalties for drug use/possesion are severly reduced (if not eliminated altogether), and the safe use of drugs is highly regulated.
The system could rely on, and draw from current systems (e.g. prescribing and scheduling), although in all likelihood, a complete overhaul would be needed. Designing such a system would be incredibly complex.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,485
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: badchad]
#16214664 - 05/11/12 11:23 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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badchad said: So then one might imagine a scenario where criminal penalties for drug use/possesion are severly reduced (if not eliminated altogether), and the safe use of drugs is highly regulated.
The system could rely on, and draw from current systems (e.g. prescribing and scheduling), although in all likelihood, a complete overhaul would be needed. Designing such a system would be incredibly complex.
That's true...I don't think we have a current model that we could look to...It would require some thinking outside of the box...
But in fairness...it's somewhat of a new problem...There has always been drug use and drug addiction...but the current level of both are so high now that we really need to attack the problem with fresh ideas and approaches.
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16214939 - 05/11/12 12:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enlil said: But in fairness...it's somewhat of a new problem...There has always been drug use and drug addiction...but the current level of both are so high now that we really need to attack the problem with fresh ideas and approaches.
This is especially true within the outdated context of the CSA, which (with a few exceptions) schedules, and controls specific substances. The rash and speed with which "designer" drugs are created and disseminated can clearly outpace the scheduling process. By a long shot.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,485
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: badchad]
#16214947 - 05/11/12 12:38 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
Enlil said: But in fairness...it's somewhat of a new problem...There has always been drug use and drug addiction...but the current level of both are so high now that we really need to attack the problem with fresh ideas and approaches.
This is especially true within the outdated context of the CSA, which (with a few exceptions) schedules, and controls specific substances. The rash and speed with which "designer" drugs are created and disseminated can clearly outpace the scheduling process. By a long shot.
Of course...but if the federal government got it's nose out of it and let the states handle it, it could probably be streamlined somewhat...
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badchad
Mad Scientist

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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16214969 - 05/11/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enlil said: Of course...but if the federal government got it's nose out of it and let the states handle it, it could probably be streamlined somewhat...
This is exactly what's been happening. My cursory understanding is that states have much more flexibility in drafting their own state laws. They can broadly criminalize whole groups of drugs.
The CSA is crippled in this aspect.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Visionary Tools



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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16215540 - 05/11/12 02:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enlil said: I really wouldn't listen to prison wisdom...it's usually quite inaccurate...
Yeah, right. Ok. But this was a screw telling me he'd very likely be out of a job without the drug users being jailed for their addictions. I trust his statement, because he'd know better than your average joe why the prison population is not just growing in the USA, but the UK to.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Certainly, the drug war has given a lot of people jobs, but that isn't the reason it exists...
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Phantom



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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] 1
#16219301 - 05/12/12 11:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Enlil said: In our society, the majority have decided that these substances served no legitimate purpose and did harm...so a legal framework was set up to minimize the damage done by these substances. This is really no different than rules concerning asbestos or other toxic substances.
I would like to know where you got the information that the majority of Americans have decided that cannabis "serves no legitimate purpose and does harm" because according to recent polls by trusted organizations (Gallup) the majority of adults support full legalization of cannabis. Legalization of Medical Marijuana has an even larger majority with an average of 60-80 percent favoring legalization of it. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150149/record-high-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx http://norml.org/library/item/favorable-medical-marijuana-polls
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Enlil
OTD God-King




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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Phantom]
#16220887 - 05/12/12 05:56 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Phantom said:
Quote:
Enlil said: In our society, the majority have decided that these substances served no legitimate purpose and did harm...so a legal framework was set up to minimize the damage done by these substances. This is really no different than rules concerning asbestos or other toxic substances.
I would like to know where you got the information that the majority of Americans have decided that cannabis "serves no legitimate purpose and does harm" because according to recent polls by trusted organizations (Gallup) the majority of adults support full legalization of cannabis. Legalization of Medical Marijuana has an even larger majority with an average of 60-80 percent favoring legalization of it. http://www.gallup.com/poll/150149/record-high-americans-favor-legalizing-marijuana.aspx http://norml.org/library/item/favorable-medical-marijuana-polls
I am having a hard time finding the word "cannabis" in the phrase that you quoted by me...could you highlight it please?
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Phantom



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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] 1
#16221209 - 05/12/12 07:05 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I followed the link you put up on this thread On 5/11/2012, the DEA goes on trial for blocking medical cannabis research which implied you where talking at least somewhat about cannabis. Btw why are you a member on this forum if you see drugs so negatively?
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Enlil
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Phantom]
#16221402 - 05/12/12 07:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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That thread is about pot...this one is about drugs in general...
I see many drug addicts daily...I see the damage it does to them and to people around them. My opinion of drugs is informed by my life experience...just as your opinion is formed by your experience...
Does that mean that my opinion is less appropriate because this is a forum about drugs?
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Luddite
I watch Fox News


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
#16323477 - 06/02/12 09:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Mind altering chemicals used by humans are seen as some kind of absolute evil by some people. They're just chemicals and evolution hasn't stopped. Its been observed that bacteria become resistant to anti-biotics, insects become resistant to pesticides, etc. It should be obvious that over time humans overall will become more resistant to the bad effects of mind altering chemicals. They most likely will become more resistant to alcohol, tobacco, obesity and the industrial chemicals found in the environment, since they're a big part of the new nature we've created.
Edited by Luddite (06/02/12 09:01 PM)
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