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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17869722 - 02/26/13 02:58 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not gonna feed into your emotional outbursts anymore.

A carefully thought-out and constructed rebuttal is an "emotional outburst". This must be some strange new usage of those words I hadn't previously been aware of.

Obviously every crime needs both.

And yet you're prepared to forcibly treat someone absent both. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17869900 - 02/26/13 03:24 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment.  Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior.  These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary.  If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.




Of course it is better with forced treatment than with forced incarceration. But people should never be incarcerated just because of drug abuse. They should get incarcerated if they steal, rape or murder. So if anything it is thieves, rapists and murderers that should have mandatory treatment, and that treatment can of course include forced abstinence from drugs ( if the thieves, rapists and murderers are addicted to drugs ).

Having forced treatment of people just because they act a bit differently from the societal norm sounds like a recipe for suppression of innocent people ( you should read Michel Foucault's Discipline & Punish: The Birth of the Prison and History of Madness ). If people that have used a lot of LSD think they are Jesus our society thinks about them as crazy. If people on the other hand believes in Jesus they are considered normal Christians. Can you objectively say that a person is more crazy if he believes he is Jesus, than if he believes in Jesus? I don't think so. If anything I might find the person who thinks he is Jesus a bit more interesting than the Christian sheep that believes in Jesus.


Edited by Zanthius (02/26/13 03:31 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Zanthius]
    #17869960 - 02/26/13 03:33 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

In a decriminalized system, no one would be incarcerated for drug abuse.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17870015 - 02/26/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment.  Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior.  These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary.  If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.

As far as people selling or manufacturing drugs, I see no reason to cut them any slack whatsoever.  They are, in fact, harming others.  A heroin dealer doesn't give customers a fact sheet about the substance he is selling.  He simply sells it to anyone he can convince to buy it without regard to the damage done.



Bullshit.  They are providing a service to free people.  The only person causing harm is the user to himself, which is entirely his own business, as you acceded to in a previous post.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17870019 - 02/26/13 03:40 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

[quote][b][i]Enlil said:[/i][/b]
In a decriminalized system, no one would be incarcerated for drug abuse.[/quote]

Or manufacture or sale


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17870047 - 02/26/13 03:44 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlin said:
As far as people selling or manufacturing drugs, I see no reason to cut them any slack whatsoever.  They are, in fact, harming others.  A heroin dealer doesn't give customers a fact sheet about the substance he is selling.  He simply sells it to anyone he can convince to buy it without regard to the damage done.




Which is why it should be regulated. Legal(and often MORE POTENT/TOXIC) pills are used more anyway. Do you honestly think that if heroin were "legal", many more people beyond those already doing it and those using pills would be taking it?(RESEARCH SAYS NOT)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #17870060 - 02/26/13 03:46 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Yes I do.  Please cite your source for research that says otherwise.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17870110 - 02/26/13 03:52 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

There were numerous sources cited in the book I suggested you read a long time ago. I'll try to find one now.


--------------------
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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #17870298 - 02/26/13 04:47 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1704189?uid=3739256&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101869150367

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/113/3/497/

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/abstractdb/AbstractDBDetails.aspx?id=128307

I don't have access to any of these articles at the moment and I've wasted to much time looking already. But lets think about this. Why exactly do people do drugs? Is the law really what's keeping people from doing drugs? Why don't YOU do drugs? Why would people who aren't interested in legal opiates do heroin if it was legal?

Here are some other sources that don't explicitly say that drug use wouldn't rise dramatically, but essentially imply it by the effectiveness of legalization.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w10976.pdf?new_window=1

http://www-afs.secure-endpoints.com/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/supa/wpapers/1998-7.pdf


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Ps. caerulipes  Ps. cubensis  Ps. cyanescens  Ps. ovoideocystidiata  Pan. cinctulus  Pan. cyanescens


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #17870343 - 02/26/13 04:53 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I'll read the ones that have an entire paper, but those abstracts aren't very compelling in and of themselves.  I don't know if the papers would be.

I think it's clear, however, that legal drugs are used far more than illegal drugs.  Whether that's a cause or an effect of legalization, I can't say. 

Since you asked, I don't do drugs because they're illegal...at least certain drugs.  Other drugs I don't do because they're harmful.  I would probably use LSD or shrooms if it were legal, however.

In addition, I do believe that legal heroin would result in an increase in heroin usage in young adults.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17870985 - 02/26/13 06:52 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I'll read the ones that have an entire paper, but those abstracts aren't very compelling in and of themselves.  I don't know if the papers would be.

I think it's clear, however, that legal drugs are used far more than illegal drugs.  Whether that's a cause or an effect of legalization, I can't say. 

Since you asked, I don't do drugs because they're illegal...at least certain drugs.  Other drugs I don't do because they're harmful.  I would probably use LSD or shrooms if it were legal, however.

In addition, I do believe that legal heroin would result in an increase in heroin usage in young adults.



How is that any of your business?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17871002 - 02/26/13 06:55 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

What makes you think it is?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17871101 - 02/26/13 07:15 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What makes you think it is?



I don't think it is but you seem to
Quote:





Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone who can responsibly manage their addiction be forced into treatment.  Certain addicts reach a point where they have completely lost the ability to rationally control their behavior.  These are the people that need treatment...mandatory if necessary.  If a person has reached the point where their brain is so fucked up that antisocial behavior is inevitable, I feel it's much cheaper to treat them than keep incarcerating them.

As far as people selling or manufacturing drugs, I see no reason to cut them any slack whatsoever.  They are, in fact, harming others.  A heroin dealer doesn't give customers a fact sheet about the substance he is selling.  He simply sells it to anyone he can convince to buy it without regard to the damage done.



Bullshit.  They are providing a service to free people.  The only person causing harm is the user to himself, which is entirely his own business, as you acceded to in a previous post.








"no reason to cut them any slack whatsoever".  You support the jailing of drug dealers and manufacturers to the fullest extent of the law.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17871148 - 02/26/13 07:25 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

I do.  They sell a harmful and addictive substance to the public without warning purchasers of the dangers of that substance.  Sounds like a pretty serious crime to me.


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17873248 - 02/27/13 05:24 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I do.  They sell a harmful and addictive substance to the public without warning purchasers of the dangers of that substance.  Sounds like a pretty serious crime to me.




If anything it should be illegal to sell stuff without information about what the product contains, possible negative effects on health, and so on. But if all drugs were sold legally they would be sold with labels informing consumers about possible negative effects on health. You are the one who is advocating for more black market activity through your illegalization agenda. I am advocating for less black market activity through legalization.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Zanthius]
    #17873309 - 02/27/13 05:53 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

How would decriminalization create more black market activity than we currently have?


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17873969 - 02/27/13 10:48 AM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Just found this.
http://www.dpft.org/prisons.htm

And I think Zanthius means that decriminalization will have more black market activity than with legalization, not more than we have now with prohibition.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17875363 - 02/27/13 03:03 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
How would decriminalization create more black market activity than we currently have?




i would infer that it would just allow the black market to continue to exist whereas allowing the government to step in and regulate all drugs would completely dissolve it.

also, you claim that "legal" heroin would only lead to higher usage and addiction rates. however, portugal's program of decriminalization - a set of laws made in response to a late 90's heroin epidemic - has led to dramatic reductions in usage, addiction, crime and drug related disease over the past ten years with every type of drug. it is also of note that post-decriminalization portugal now has lower usage and addiction rates than any other country in europe. surprigingly, at least to me, cannabis usage has dropped the most out of all of the drugs featured in the report below. 

my source.  (pdf to full white sheet is in red at the lower right hand portion of the page)

it seems to me that legalization would have the same type of effects as decriminalization, only those effects would be more dramatic because of age restriction, regulation for purity by the government as well as the absence of a black market and the criminal activity that accompanies it. but law is just one part of the solution. proper drug education and treatment for addiction would also be necessary for significant harm reduction to take place as it has in portugal.


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Edited by millzy (02/27/13 03:04 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: millzy]
    #17875421 - 02/27/13 03:14 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

Decriminalization doesn't increase the availability and social acceptance in the same way that legalization would...so I would suspect the outcomes to be different.

In addition, I've read the CATO report, but it isn't the only study out there.  This study shows drug use increased after decriminalization:
"Between 2001 and 2007, lifetime and last-year use was reported to have increased in Portugal for almost all illicit substances (see Tables 1 and 2). The increase was seen in all age groups above 19 (Balsa et al. 2004; 2007)."
http://www.beckleyfoundation.org/bib/doc/bf/2010_Caitlin_211621_1.pdf

The tables on page 1007 quite clearly indicate that drug use increased across the board.  Of course, there is the possibility that decriminalization made people more comfortable with admitting drug use...

All in all, I don't think there is any real conclusive data that can tell us one way or another whether or not decriminalization in portugal resulted in an increase in drug use.

Further, any decrease in use the might have occurred could largely be the result of the treatment programs that are now available there.  I would, of course, like to see similar programs in the U.S.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17875528 - 02/27/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 10 months ago)

age restrictions would make it vastly harder for young people to acquire drugs, and honest drug education might help deter them from seeking drugs in the first place. education about smoking has been successful in this regard across all age groups. but like you said, nobody knows what would happen. at any rate i don't think that we should be locking people up for possessing or taking any drug, and legalization would seem to have a much wider spectrum of benefits like age restrictions, regulation for purity as well as completely fucking the cartels and terrorist organizations who profit from illegal drug money.

in the cato paper it mentions that portugal's laws was not a concession to drug use being inevitable, but rather it was the best response to the problem. i disagree with this assertion because it seems to me that legalization is clearly the best response because of the reasons aforementioned.


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