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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918742 - 03/08/12 10:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it matters what laws are in place so that people receive proper judgement when the disobey them. 

i dont agree with the judgement people receive when they are caught using drugs.

not every body will follow all the laws all the time.  its just silly to believe that that world could exist.  thats what i'm saying


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918749 - 03/08/12 10:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blackstatis said:




This might be true.  Does that mean society should throw its hands up and give up trying?  Software and music piracy will never be stopped...should we make that legal, too?
Quote:



i don't think you get it... stealing software and music harms the designer and artist.  this is not someone choosing to harm themselves.  if i could steal my own music, would there be a law against that? 





There are people who can drive very, very well at high speeds.  Does that mean that we should abolish speed limits?
Quote:



NO, we should not abolish speed limits, that would be insane and yet again another opportunity for people to risk harming other people against their will.  BUT... we do have public race tracks for people who "can drive very, very well at high speeds"  these race tracks also allow people who drive very, very bad at high speeds, but it allows for a place to go and do that.  they also offer safe training and education about racing and driving.




Dude...you're mixing up arguments...You said that people will always use whether it's legal or not...I said this wasn't a valid argument for legalization and gave piracy as an example...if your argument is that drugs only harm oneself, then that is a different argument...one which I disagree with as well.

The first question is whether or not drug use has ANY POTENTIAL WHATSOEVER to harm someone other than the user...the answer to this question is undoubtedly "yes."  I assume we agree on this.

The second question is how much of a potential risk is enough to justify government prohibition of a substance? 

The third quesiton is how much of a potential risk does a particular drug pose.

On the second and third, reasonable minds can disagree...but that's why we have a system in the country of making policy decisions somewhat linked to majority view.


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #15918760 - 03/08/12 10:18 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Do you have an argument for why drugs should be criminalized? 'cuz the way I see it is if there's no benefit from the law, then why have it?
Even the U.N. has declared that the war on drugs has failed & that we need to start doing things differently, problem is no nation is required to actaully do what they say & we just keep ignoring the experts & nothing changes.




I don't believe that drugs should be criminalized per se...I don't believe they should be legal, however...

Locking someone in jail for a substance problem helps no one.  It certainly doesn't help society.  On the other hand, I see a reason to have some criminal laws pertaining to drugs.  For instance, someone who sells heroin to a child saying, "Hey bro...this is cool stuff...try it"...That DOES create a clear public harm.



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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #15919041 - 03/08/12 11:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

blackstatis said:




This might be true.  Does that mean society should throw its hands up and give up trying?  Software and music piracy will never be stopped...should we make that legal, too?
Quote:



i don't think you get it... stealing software and music harms the designer and artist.  this is not someone choosing to harm themselves.  if i could steal my own music, would there be a law against that? 





There are people who can drive very, very well at high speeds.  Does that mean that we should abolish speed limits?
Quote:



NO, we should not abolish speed limits, that would be insane and yet again another opportunity for people to risk harming other people against their will.  BUT... we do have public race tracks for people who "can drive very, very well at high speeds"  these race tracks also allow people who drive very, very bad at high speeds, but it allows for a place to go and do that.  they also offer safe training and education about racing and driving.




Dude...you're mixing up arguments...You said that people will always use whether it's legal or not...I said this wasn't a valid argument for legalization and gave piracy as an example...if your argument is that drugs only harm oneself, then that is a different argument...one which I disagree with as well.

The first question is whether or not drug use has ANY POTENTIAL WHATSOEVER to harm someone other than the user...the answer to this question is undoubtedly "yes."  I assume we agree on this.
   
    -- ok.  i was arguing against your software/music piracy in the same context.  i know an addicts family and friends are hurt and torn when it comes to that.  i thought we all understood that it was in regards to "personal harm" or maybe you could even say "first hand" harm. 

me, just sitting at home ingesting my substance of choice and remaining there, i would say harms no one else.  thats my argument.  i would continue to encourage laws that penalize people who do first hand harm to others as a possible result of an inhibited state of drug/alcohol use.

The second question is how much of a potential risk is enough to justify government prohibition of a substance? 

    --my belief is that potential risk is irrelevant if it comes down to choosing what i want to take into my body.  Me, myself should have that sole responsibility.

now if we take a liquor store as an example, we have beer, wine and spirits all sold in the same establishment.  you have the opportunity to buy any concentrated strength of alchohol you desire.  it is then your own responsibility to consume as you desire.  based on your second question and general attitude, you imply that the more potential risk there is, the more prohibition there should be.  therefore, it cold be posed that everclear should be more prohibited than beer and yet in the regulated state we are in, where as all alcohol is treated mostly equal and you can buy as much of anything as you want, we don't see people rushing to the liquor store to get the hardest, most potent, most dangerous substance they've got. 

The third quesiton is how much of a potential risk does a particular drug pose.

    --this is the same question as the previous.  how much potential risk does tylenol pose?  you can die from a tylenol overdose, you can't die from smoking/eating too much weed.  so when the majority view agree to make somethings legal or illegal, is it just because of potential risk or is it because of a propagated mindset.  sometimes, and this may come as a shocker to you... but, sometimes the majority is wrong.

On the second and third, reasonable minds can disagree...but that's why we have a system in the country of making policy decisions somewhat linked to majority view.





all of your arguments seem to pose the "all or nothing" attitude.  such as; if we can't control it, why dont we just give up?  i think that we should look at it this way; if we can't control it with conventional laws, what other avenues can we explore to put a damper on a person's destructive habits against themself, all while maintaining personal freedom.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15919068 - 03/08/12 11:30 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That's not what I'm saying at all...You're the one going black and white here:

"my belief is that potential risk is irrelevant if it comes down to choosing what i want to take into my body"

So you're saying that you should be able to do whatever you want to your body regardless of who else it hurts...

I'm saying that drug use can and does hurt people other than the user. As a result, there has to be some controls on it...I never said that people should be jailed for using drugs...that is YOUR all or nothing way of looking at it...I said that certain drug related activity should be criminal...others should be illegal...still others should be legal..


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15919081 - 03/08/12 11:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



Locking someone in jail for a substance problem helps no one.  It certainly doesn't help society.  On the other hand, I see a reason to have some criminal laws pertaining to drugs.  For instance, someone who sells heroin to a child saying, "Hey bro...this is cool stuff...try it"...That DOES create a clear public harm.





Alcohol is legal(regulated), but giving it to underaged persons is not. If one was required to have a license and to document their sales, why would they sell heroine to children? The same logic applied to alcohol should apply to other substance. Last time i checked we don't have a large number of alcoholic children(although there probably are a few).


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #15919099 - 03/08/12 11:38 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
Quote:



Locking someone in jail for a substance problem helps no one.  It certainly doesn't help society.  On the other hand, I see a reason to have some criminal laws pertaining to drugs.  For instance, someone who sells heroin to a child saying, "Hey bro...this is cool stuff...try it"...That DOES create a clear public harm.





Alcohol is legal(regulated), but giving it to underaged persons is not. If one was required to have a license and to document their sales, why would they sell heroine to children? The same logic applied to alcohol should apply to other substance. Last time i checked we don't have a large number of alcoholic children(although there probably are a few).




Exactly...so we agree that certain drug related activity should be criminal..


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #15919129 - 03/08/12 11:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly...so we agree that certain drug related activity should be criminal..

No, i believe in holding the person resposible, not blaming the drug. It's like how people always say that we can't legalize/decriminalize marijuana because people will drive while intoxicated(which is stupid for numerous reasons). It's already illegal to drive when intoxicated on ANY substance and people already drive intoxicated, whether on alcohol, marijuana, perscription meds, etc...


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #15919132 - 03/08/12 11:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Because No one has the right to tell me what to do so long as I don't harm anyone else, their property, or their rights.    Just like I would never try to tell anyone else how to live their lives under the same conditions.  i might give advice, but you can't make anyone do anything really.

I'm assuming you're going to twist this a little to make a point because of your legal side, so let's have at it....      (no offense intended here)
:smirk:


Edited by Mr.PhilCybin (03/08/12 11:56 AM)


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #15919192 - 03/08/12 12:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
Because No one has the right to tell me what to do so long as I don't harm anyone else, their property, or their rights.      Common law sort of stance.

I'm assuming you're going to blow this out of proportion a little to make a point because of your legal side, so let's have at it....
:smirk:




Look, obviously I agree with that statement to some degree...but the idea that your personal use of heroin doesn't harm anyone else is a bit of a fiction.  I spent hours and hours reading the opiate sticky thread in ODD, and that alone makes it clear that society does pay a price for your personal use of heroin.

Now, I'm not saying that you should go to jail for it...but you certainly should be discouraged from using heroin.  Saying "it's no one else's business what i do with my body" isn't a complete answer.

I concede that there are probably drugs that do such an immeasurably small societal harm that they should be fully legalized...I've used shrooms many times, and I have a hard time seeing too much potential for societal harm from them. 

On the other hand, even something that does little societal harm should still be regulated much like tobacco and alcohol is.

My problem with this whole "my body, my choice" argument is that it is so absolute. 

Look, drugs are a lot like guns.  They have the potential to do great harm to people.  Society has to weigh that potential against our personal freedoms...it isn't enough to say that society doesn't have a say in what we possess...  We have to make decisions about these things.  We've decided that the average citizen can't own an RPG...not because they will inevitably kill someone with it...but because we figured that the benefits of owning an RPG are outweighed by the risks.

The same can be said of drugs.  It isn't illegal to smoke pot...it's illegal to possess it.  Possessing it might mean you're going to smoke it.  It might also mean you're going to give it to someone else to smoke.  It might mean that you're going to teach your 3 year old to take a hit from a joint so you can put the video on youtube.  Society has to weigh those risks.

It's illegal to possess highly enriched uranium...why?  The answer is obvious.  Even though you might just want it as a paperweight (which it would be very effective as), society has determined that the risk associated with people having it is outweighed by the benefits...It doesn't really matter that the uranium is for your "personal use."


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15919271 - 03/08/12 12:14 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said: 

Look, drugs are a lot like guns.  They have the potential to do great harm to people.  Society has to weigh that potential against our personal freedoms...it isn't enough to say that society doesn't have a say in what we possess...  We have to make decisions about these things.  We've decided that the average citizen can't own an RPG...not because they will inevitably kill someone with it...but because we figured that the benefits of owning an RPG are outweighed by the risks.

The same can be said of drugs.  It isn't illegal to smoke pot...it's illegal to possess it.  Possessing it might mean you're going to smoke it.  It might also mean you're going to give it to someone else to smoke.  It might mean that you're going to teach your 3 year old to take a hit from a joint so you can put the video on youtube.  Society has to weigh those risks.

It's illegal to possess highly enriched uranium...why?  The answer is obvious.  Even though you might just want it as a paperweight (which it would be very effective as), society has determined that the risk associated with people having it is outweighed by the benefits...It doesn't really matter that the uranium is for your "personal use."




Firstly, It is illegal to be under the influence of a controlled substance, as well as possessing, or selling, etc.

Secondly, My stance on this is, While I agree to live in a society such as the one we have set up, you need structure. I agree
Let me say that I am of the small percentage that would manage without one.  In the sense that I don't need the government to look after me.
I think the bigger issue here is that we baby everyone, expect them to be incapable of making good choices, which in many cases is true!
We need to educate the people better, make them take responsibility for the choices they make.  People won't start doing the right thing until they stop focusing on "me" so much, and have some compassion for others.


We wouldn't need any laws at all if everyone cared about eachother and didn't harm those around us.

I understand how crazy that sounds, how idealistic it is, but it's not impossible. :shrug:

edit: and in your reference to guns, here is the analogy I like to use.
Drugs are like a hammer.  You can build a house or break a window. It's not the hammer's fault, its the dumbass who hurts someone with it.
Outlaw hammers?

Outlawing the drugs doesn't address the real problem.  If some asshole gives drugs to a child (which already happens all the time)  then he should be punished harshly for misusing drugs and potentially harming someone.
Same thing that happens to people who give alcohol or cigarettes to minors.


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Edited by Mr.PhilCybin (03/08/12 12:27 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #15919311 - 03/08/12 12:25 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
We wouldn't need any laws at all if everyone cared about eachother and didn't harm those around us.





That's a pretty big "if." 

Lines have to be drawn somewhere.  I practice in one state where the term "drug" isn't even used in the law...it is "Possession of a Controlled Dangerous Substance."  And there are many things that are considered "CDS" that aren't drugs at all.  Again...I don't know how you're going to use it...

You may want rohypnol to sleep at night...or you may want to rape my sister...

It's going to be hard to catch you before you rape her...and probably even after...so I want there to be some control over your ability to get the stuff.  It's not enough for you just to say "it's my body."

The big difference between something like rohypnol and crack is that rohypnol has some medicinal use...it provides a benefit to people.  Maybe that is true of some illegal drugs...and it appears that society is starting to recognize that possibility...I'm sure that lines will move because of it.

But that doesn't eliminate the need for lines altogether.


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15919332 - 03/08/12 12:33 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

As long as we expect bad things to happen, and worry about what ifs,
We're just going to be keeping these limits on ourselves and make the progress that much more difficult.

We need to help our citizens to become better people before anything  beneficial can happen to society on a large scale  IMO.

Now by NO means do I think I have all the answers.  I could not run a country, I understand it must be amazingly difficult.

BUT, things have been out of control for a while, and the main reason the drug laws are bunk is because their not about safety or harm reduction at all.  There's an ever growing amount of studies that clearly show the ineffectiveness of these drug laws.

it's about money and power.  but I'll leave that for another thread.


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #15919348 - 03/08/12 12:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.PhilCybin said:
As long as we expect bad things to happen, and worry about what ifs,
We're just going to be keeping these limits on ourselves and make the progress that much more difficult.

We need to help our citizens to become better people before anything  beneficial can happen to society on a large scale  IMO.

Now by NO means do I think I have all the answers.  I could not run a country, I understand it must be amazingly difficult.

BUT, things have been out of control for a while, and the main reason the drug laws are bunk is because their not about safety or harm reduction at all.  There's an ever growing amount of studies that clearly show the ineffectiveness of these drug laws.

it's about money and power.  but I'll leave that for another thread.




I am not defending the current system...not in the least.  I just think that far too many people take the position that all drug laws should go out the window.  It is an indefensible position that only leads a person's entire point to be dismissed by the establishment. 

I think it would be more effective if those same people acknowledged that America does have a problem with drug addiction and drug use, and that the current system is not addressing that problem.  Denying that the problem exists undercuts credibility and undermines the entire efficacy of the movement.


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InvisibleMr.PhilCybin
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15919372 - 03/08/12 12:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
  I just think that far too many people take the position that all drug laws should go out the window.  It is an indefensible position that only leads a person's entire point to be dismissed by the establishment. 

I think it would be more effective if those same people acknowledged that America does have a problem with drug addiction and drug use, and that the current system is not addressing that problem.  Denying that the problem exists undercuts credibility and undermines the entire efficacy of the movement.




We've come to a point of agreement.  I concur with everything you just said above.

However, while I don't think there should be any drug laws,
You can't go from our current system to no drug laws over night.  That would be a disaster because people don't know how to use drugs safely.  Mostly because our gov. wants to deny any information of the likes to the people.
i think one ideal situation would be to set up a 5-10 year plan to adjust to the transition and learn about these things before opening the flood gates.


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Mr.PhilCybin]
    #15921504 - 03/08/12 07:24 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I think it comes down to regulation by the government or leaving to drug dealers


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: mushies r sexy] * 1
    #16047420 - 04/05/12 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

People should have the freedom to do whatever they please as long as it's harming no one else but the subject. (who wishes to ingest the substance)


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: trip forever]
    #16048989 - 04/05/12 04:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Because addicts need rebab; they don't need to be locked up forever. With option #1, recreational drugs are taxed and it goes to pay for rehab clinics they may need in the future while option #2, means I continue to pay some where around $15,000 a year to keep someone locked up who never hurt anyone but themselves. I feel they should have the right to do whatever they want to themselves as long as it doesn't step onto someone else's rights. Then, there's the argument about how it'll get rid of drug dealers, and I think it's true. Supply and demand will drastically change, and it won't be very lucrative any more.


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: 1ve5w4hu]
    #16051674 - 04/06/12 07:05 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Why should they be illegal? We live in a day and age when it's ok for gay sex and the government doesn't imprison people for it (like they did to alan turing and then chemically castrating him).

So if it's ok for me to take cock anally, why not dmt? Under common law I'm not injuring anyone and I'm not stealing it if I bought it from someone. It's only because of maritime law saying we're no better than livestock, property of the government. And that government, thinking it owns us, feels entitled to say what we can and  cannot do.


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #16052022 - 04/06/12 09:46 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Visionary Tools said:
Why should they be illegal? We live in a day and age when it's ok for gay sex and the government doesn't imprison people for it (like they did to alan turing and then chemically castrating him).

So if it's ok for me to take cock anally, why not dmt? Under common law I'm not injuring anyone and I'm not stealing it if I bought it from someone. It's only because of maritime law saying we're no better than livestock, property of the government. And that government, thinking it owns us, feels entitled to say what we can and  cannot do.



Lol..your common law/maritime law explanation makes no sense whatsoever...

The reason certain drugs are illegal is because of the perception that drugs harm more than just the user.  The perception is that drugs often lead to addiction and that addiction is very harmful to society...

You might disagree with that perception, but that is the perception that drives drug prohibition.

The best way to get the law changed is to start working on changing that perception...


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