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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Registered: 03/03/11
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17567327 - 01/18/13 11:16 AM (11 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol...why does it have to stink like shit?  I'm sure that one can make a cage that is clean, sanitary, and has pleasant olfactory stimuli.




Ah, a little bit of rhetorical humor through over-literal interpretation...still you are dodging the point.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #17567333 - 01/18/13 11:17 AM (11 years, 12 days ago)

The point isn't dodged at all..it's been covered.  I don't see forced treatment as punishment...diploid does.  We're never going to agree on that point.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #17567466 - 01/18/13 11:46 AM (11 years, 12 days ago)

I don't see forced treatment as punishment...diploid does.  We're never going to agree on that point

Forcing someone who has hurt no one to do something against their will in response to a victimless crime of private adult behavior you don't happen to approve of is unethical.


I don't see forcing a gay man who has hurt no one into sexual-correction psychotherapy as wrong. Other people do. We're never going to agree on that point, therefore neither of us can claim to hold the ethical view. :flowstone:

/sarcasm


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17567513 - 01/18/13 11:54 AM (11 years, 12 days ago)

You're certainly entitled to that opinion, but I disagree.

Drug addiction is the antithesis of autonomy and/or freedom.  Forcibly treating a heroin addict, while clearly restricting autonomy temporarily can have the effect of giving a person back his autonomy in the long-run.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #17567539 - 01/18/13 11:58 AM (11 years, 12 days ago)

Forcibly treating a heroin addict, while clearly restricting autonomy temporarily can have the effect of giving a person back his autonomy in the long-run.

You are pathetically ignorant of drug rehabilitation therapy. Which isn't surprising given your idiotic views.

Any drug treatment professional will tell you that the very first principle of drug treatment is that the treated must want to stop using. Without that prerequisite, it is a futile waste of money and effort.

Go learn what the fuck you're talking about man. You are totally clueless. I'm starting to wonder if all the people who doubt you're a lawyer are right after all. No PD could possibly be this out of touch.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17567664 - 01/18/13 12:23 PM (11 years, 12 days ago)

k.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17567692 - 01/18/13 12:28 PM (11 years, 12 days ago)

Do you disagree and can back it up or is that the best you got?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17567715 - 01/18/13 12:32 PM (11 years, 12 days ago)

Nah, diploid.  I'm not going to join in on your emotional pissing match.  I'm here to intelligently discuss a topic.  You seem to only be able to resort to attacking my credibility instead of the issue.  On top of that, you feel the need to cry in my ratings like a child who isn't getting his way.

It's clear you don't respect me enough to discuss the issue rationally and logically, and I've lost enough respect for you in the last month to make it so that it's not really worth my time to try.

Sorry, Diploid, that it's come to this...but I don't see any point in continuing.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #17567727 - 01/18/13 12:35 PM (11 years, 12 days ago)

I'm here to intelligently discuss a topic.

You're here to push a fascist agenda and ignore a mountain of factual information that has been presented to tear your argument to shreds.

I'm not going to

That's what I thought. When you can't defend an argument, just drop out rather than accept that the argument fails.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleInner Revolution

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 13
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17568583 - 01/18/13 03:30 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

Personally I think that legalization of substances should go hand in hand with education and a change in the way people perceive them.
If you just legalize things out of the blue without educating the public as to how it can be used responsibly then id guess it will end badly.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Inner Revolution] * 1
    #17568722 - 01/18/13 03:55 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

It didn't end badly in Portugal. Educate yourself.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17568746 - 01/18/13 04:00 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

Manufacturing and distribution are still quite criminal in portugal...and possession is still illegal.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17568777 - 01/18/13 04:05 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

In addition, in portugal, users of drugs can be punished pretty harshly:

"The committees have a broad range of sanctions available to them when ruling on the drug use offence. These include:
Fines, ranging from 25 to 150 EURO. These figures are based on the Portuguese minimum wage of about 485 EURO (Banco de Portugal, 2001) and translate into hours of work lost.
Suspension of the right to practice if the user has a licensed profession (e.g. medical doctor, taxi driver) and may endanger another person or someone's possessions.
Ban on visiting certain places (e.g. specific discothèques)
Ban on associating with specific other persons.
Foreign travel ban.
Requirement to report periodically to the committee.
Withdrawal of the right to carry a gun.
Confiscation of personal possessions.
Cessation of subsidies or allowances that a person receives from a public agency."

They can't force treatment, but they can punish people if they don't submit to treatment...which sounds an awful lot like forcing them into treatment.



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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17568890 - 01/18/13 04:32 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

I've already told you that it doesn't work that way in practice, you just don't want to hear it. Unless you're making a nuisance of yourself, you're left alone. And if you ARE making a nuisance of yourself while fucked up on drugs, I would be the first to agree the hammer should come down on you.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17568904 - 01/18/13 04:35 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

The committee has discretion.  If history has taught us anything, discretion leads to disparity which leads to discrimination.

Using portugal as an argument for legalization is weak...they haven't legalized or anything close to it.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #17569040 - 01/18/13 04:57 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

The committee has discretion.

I'm not talking about what the committee does when you're in the system. I'm talking about reality on the ground for civilians.

Drug users who keep their head down and don't steal or bother other people or walk around puking in the street are COMPLETELY left alone by the police. They know they have real criminals hurting society to go after and don't waste their time with quiet drug users who just want to be left the fuck alone.

Shit man, there are even "safe houses" in Portugal where heroin addicts congregate to get clean needles and stay out of trouble. Nobody arrests them because, unlike busybody Americans, the Portuguese are civilized enough to acknowledge personal responsibility and a person's sovereignty over their own god damned body.

Using portugal as an argument for legalization is weak

There's no place else to use in an argument because prohibitionist Americans shove it up the ass of every other country through withholding of money and through strong-arming the UN. But Portugal comes closest, so it's an apropos model for the next step of full legalization.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleInner Revolution

Registered: 01/16/13
Posts: 13
Loc: Everywhere
Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17569934 - 01/18/13 07:45 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

I'm not saying it can't work, just that (and i think you know this as well) there are quite a few people out there who don't really know much about the substances they use, and how to use them responsibly.
Legalizing everything without educating them could lead to problems.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Inner Revolution] * 5
    #17570028 - 01/18/13 08:09 PM (11 years, 11 days ago)

there are quite a few people out there who don't really know much about the substances they use, and how to use them responsibly.

So what? If they go out and drive fucked up or hurt others, we already have laws to handle that. Why do we need more laws to create a nanny state and protect people from themselves?

Adults have the right to make stoopid decisions as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Anyone can skydive off a cliff with no training and kill themselves. If they do, again, so what? It's their life to risk as they see fit.

Take care of your own life and leave other adults alone with theirs.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17573896 - 01/19/13 03:13 PM (11 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
there are quite a few people out there who don't really know much about the substances they use, and how to use them responsibly.

So what? If they go out and drive fucked up or hurt others, we already have laws to handle that. Why do we need more laws to create a nanny state and protect people from themselves?

Adults have the right to make stoopid decisions as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Anyone can skydive off a cliff with no training and kill themselves. If they do, again, so what? It's their life to risk as they see fit.

Take care of your own life and leave other adults alone with theirs.




:thumbup:


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InvisibleGilgamesh18
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Diploid]
    #17578194 - 01/20/13 11:31 AM (11 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
there are quite a few people out there who don't really know much about the substances they use, and how to use them responsibly.

So what? If they go out and drive fucked up or hurt others, we already have laws to handle that. Why do we need more laws to create a nanny state and protect people from themselves?

Adults have the right to make stoopid decisions as long as they don't hurt anyone else. Anyone can skydive off a cliff with no training and kill themselves. If they do, again, so what? It's their life to risk as they see fit.

Take care of your own life and leave other adults alone with theirs.



Damn straight do unto others as they would do unto you.


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