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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Why should drugs be legal?
    #15918400 - 03/08/12 08:35 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm looking for a frank discussion on why people think drugs should be legal. 

Let me start it by saying that I don't believe that any and all drugs should be legal, but I do think that our current laws do not address the issues appropriately at all.

I'm really trying to get at least one truly solid, logical argument for the legalization of drugs.  So far, I haven't heard one.  Since you guys presumably talk over this stuff all the time, I figured that this might be a good place to start.


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Offlinedodgem
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918416 - 03/08/12 08:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Here is the way I like to look at it. 

It's not just about our right to put what we want in our bodies and get high.  It's our right NOT to be punished for what we put in our bodies.


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Offlinemushies r sexy
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918418 - 03/08/12 08:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

In my opinion people should have the right to use what they want. The government and all of there agencies allow for use to consume many things harmful to our health. The people should have the right to use whatever substance they want. I think some hard drugs such as meth, heroin, crack, should be illegal. They waste alot of money putting addicts in jail just for using. That is wrong. A drug user does not deserve to be in prison. Many people that use drugs are passive people, and when you put them in jail they suffer alot in there and also come out worse then when they went in. If they legalized drugs they could tax it, and that would devastate drug dealers and the cartels. They are the ones that cause all the violence. If they legalized certain drugs, and sold them people wouldn't need drug dealers anymore. Just my opinion though.


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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918444 - 03/08/12 08:51 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i think drugs should be legalized first and foremost, because YOU should be in control of what you do to yourself.  it bothers me that there is "big brother" watching over me, who doesn't know me, telling me that i cant handle what i put in my body.  also, if someone wants to try heroin, get addicted, then all they want to do is heroin till they die/overdose... i think no less of them for wanting to do that. 

however, if that addict wants to get help, they are then treated like a criminal.  if drugs were legal, we could take all those billions of dollars we waste on the drug war and create treatment facilities who treat addiction like a disease and treat it as such.  instead of giving a heroin addict methadone, which is just as bad, we could help ween them off with clean, safe doses of less and less potent heroin and put them in a program to become functioning society members.  instead we choose jail, which fucks up a persons record, which then they get a shitty job and shitty apartment, cuz thats all they can get, struggles hard to fight cravings because they cant afford good rehab, then maybe one day have a relapse. 

people are going to do drugs regardless of it being illegal or legal.  look at prescription drugs... those are technically "legal" and we are having an epidemic!  i think regulation and education are our best bet.  legalize and regulate, so that careless drug dealers can be minimized and product can be consistent.  the most important would be to properly educate, look at cigarettes for instance.  in the 40's and 50's people smoked like chimneys, health care professionals included.  the general public was informed greatly through studies done(studies you can only really do when something is legal) and we now have less people smoking and ALL of them admitting that its bad for you.


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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918455 - 03/08/12 08:53 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i understand people's argument as to why you would want to keep "hard" drugs illegal, but i think its kind of hypocritical to say "this should be legal and not that"


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: mushies r sexy]
    #15918461 - 03/08/12 08:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushies r sexy said:
In my opinion people should have the right to use what they want. The government and all of there agencies allow for use to consume many things harmful to our health. The people should have the right to use whatever substance they want. I think some hard drugs such as meth, heroin, crack, should be illegal. They waste alot of money putting addicts in jail just for using. That is wrong. A drug user does not deserve to be in prison. Many people that use drugs are passive people, and when you put them in jail they suffer alot in there and also come out worse then when they went in. If they legalized drugs they could tax it, and that would devastate drug dealers and the cartels. They are the ones that cause all the violence. If they legalized certain drugs, and sold them people wouldn't need drug dealers anymore. Just my opinion though.




I agree that drug users shouldn't be put in jail...but that isn't really an argument for legalization.  They could be kept illegal without jail being a consequence.  There are plenty of things that are illegal for which you would never go to jail.

But the idea that people should have the right to use what they want is not how any civilization has ever been.  Societies have always sought to control things that were percieved as dangerous...whether that be drugs, explosives, guns, whatever.  The only question has been how to determine what things should and shouldn't be banned.

In our society, the majority have decided that these substances served no legitimate purpose and did harm...so a legal framework was set up to minimize the damage done by these substances.  This is really no different than rules concerning asbestos or other toxic substances.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918469 - 03/08/12 08:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blackstatis said:
i understand people's argument as to why you would want to keep "hard" drugs illegal, but i think its kind of hypocritical to say "this should be legal and not that"




So you have no problem with "regulating" drugs, but you have a problem with banning them completely?


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918491 - 03/08/12 09:03 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

*We should be able to do to ourselves what we want.

*Taxing them could be beneficial

*Could possibly cut down on drug related violence

*Higher quality standards for them, so no cutting and lacing with bad shit

*There's already plenty of deadly shit that's legal anyway

It's all been said before here plenty of times.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Eminence]
    #15918516 - 03/08/12 09:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

frylock91 said:
*We should be able to do to ourselves what we want.





Does that include ingesting potassium cyanide? 
Quote:



*Taxing them could be beneficial




Not really an argument for legalization...we could legalize hitmen and tax that too..

Quote:



*Could possibly cut down on drug related violence





Probably, but wouldn't drug related violence end altogether if people obeyed the current law?  Blaming the law for the actions of those who violate it is a pretty weak argument.

Quote:



*Higher quality standards for them, so no cutting and lacing with bad shit





Probably true as well, but if something is deemed bad for society, it doesn't get better because it is higher quality.

Quote:



*There's already plenty of deadly shit that's legal anyway






Absolutely true.  This isn't really an argument for legalization as much as it is an argument for tighter controls on the other deadly shit.


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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #15918568 - 03/08/12 09:28 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, if someone wants to eat posttasium cyanide that's their choice.

Hitmen and drugs are nowhere near the same thing.

There will never be a day where everybody obeys a law that says they can't do to themselves what they want. You don't really hear about people being murdered over alcohol anymore right?

There are other things deemed bad for society that are still legal, but if people can avoid dying or being injured because of them, then why not?

I suppose you could say that, but people have a way of getting whatever they want, the best thing is education and harm reduction.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Eminence]
    #15918600 - 03/08/12 09:37 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

frylock91 said:
Yes, if someone wants to eat posttasium cyanide that's their choice.




You're entitled to your position, but that is certainly a minority view...and as such, society has chosen not to take it.
Quote:


Hitmen and drugs are nowhere near the same thing.




No one said they were.  The point is that revenue shouldn't be the deciding factor when choosing what is and isn't illegal.
Quote:


There will never be a day where everybody obeys a law that says they can't do to themselves what they want. You don't really hear about people being murdered over alcohol anymore right?




This might be true.  Does that mean society should throw its hands up and give up trying?  Software and music piracy will never be stopped...should we make that legal, too?
Quote:


There are other things deemed bad for society that are still legal, but if people can avoid dying or being injured because of them, then why not?




There are people who can drive very, very well at high speeds.  Does that mean that we should abolish speed limits?  What percentage of people need to be able to use a drug without doing damage in order for it to be legalized?  Or, put another way, what percentage of users of a substance need to damage themselves or others with it before it qualifies for prohibition?
Quote:


I suppose you could say that, but people have a way of getting whatever they want, the best thing is education and harm reduction.



Again, this isn't an argument for legalization as much as it is an argument for education.  I agree with this.


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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918630 - 03/08/12 09:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

blackstatis said:
i understand people's argument as to why you would want to keep "hard" drugs illegal, but i think its kind of hypocritical to say "this should be legal and not that"




So you have no problem with "regulating" drugs, but you have a problem with banning them completely?




pretty much


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918632 - 03/08/12 09:48 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"The legality of the War on Drugs has been challenged on six main grounds in the US.
1.It is argued that drug prohibition, as presently implemented, violates the substantive due process doctrine in that its benefits do not justify the encroachments on rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. On July 27, 2011, U.S. District Judge Mary S. Scriven ruled that Florida's legislation purporting to eliminate intent as an element of the crime of drug possession was unconstitutional. Commentators explained the ruling in terms of due process.
2.Freedom of religious conscience legally allows some, for example, members of the Native American Church, to use peyote with definite spiritual or religious motives, but the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment implies no requirement for someone to be affiliated to an official church - therefore leaving some ambiguity.
3.It has been argued that the Commerce Clause means that the power to regulate drug use should be state law not federal law.
4.The inequity of prosecuting the war on certain drugs but not alcohol or tobacco has also been called into question. Prohibition of alcohol required the 18th Amendment to the Constitution. It has been argued that prohibition of marijuana would also require an amendment to the Constitution, but no such amendment has been made.
5.It is argued that the reverse burden of proof in drug-possession cases is incompatible with the rule of law in that the power to convict is effectively taken from the courts and given to those who are willing to plant evidence.
6.Regardless of the legality itself of the war on drugs, there have been accusations of inequality in the prosecution of that war, claiming it disproportionately targets certain regimes and ethnic groups."

Aside from the fact that the federal government doesn't actually have the right to regulate substances, they often use their power to enact laws based upon finanial gain & moral based fear mongering without considering the effect they will have. Practically EVERY expert that has ever been asked by any governing body about criminalizing drugs has been against it. They are usually ignored and/or fired(such as this guy  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt).
Even the idea that the government is trying to protect people from "dangerous" substances doesn't really hold up since most of the drugs have never even had hearings, they were just scheduled along with lsd, & many of the drugs have caused 0 deaths to this day & have numerous medical uses(wich contradicts their scheduling).
Can anyone give a reason based on facts and logic why virtually harmless, non-addictive substances Should be illegal?



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InvisibleEminence
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918652 - 03/08/12 09:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I don't think it's illegal to off yourself if you want.

It shouldn't be based on revenue, but it is for the most part. Or so it seems.

No speeding and pirating shouldn't be legalized, but that's because they are not victimless crimes like doing drugs. 

And sure that last one probably isn't the greatest defense but I still stand by my belief that people shouldn't be persecuted for their lifestyles unless it hurts others. :shrug:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: dizzy_simmons]
    #15918675 - 03/08/12 09:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

dizzy_simmons said:
"The legality of the War on Drugs has been challenged on six main grounds in the US.
1.It is argued that drug prohibition, as presently implemented, violates the substantive due process doctrine in that its benefits do not justify the encroachments on rights that are supposed to be guaranteed by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. On July 27, 2011, U.S. District Judge Mary S. Scriven ruled that Florida's legislation purporting to eliminate intent as an element of the crime of drug possession was unconstitutional. Commentators explained the ruling in terms of due process.
2.Freedom of religious conscience legally allows some, for example, members of the Native American Church, to use peyote with definite spiritual or religious motives, but the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment implies no requirement for someone to be affiliated to an official church - therefore leaving some ambiguity.
3.It has been argued that the Commerce Clause means that the power to regulate drug use should be state law not federal law.
4.The inequity of prosecuting the war on certain drugs but not alcohol or tobacco has also been called into question. Prohibition of alcohol required the 18th Amendment to the Constitution. It has been argued that prohibition of marijuana would also require an amendment to the Constitution, but no such amendment has been made.
5.It is argued that the reverse burden of proof in drug-possession cases is incompatible with the rule of law in that the power to convict is effectively taken from the courts and given to those who are willing to plant evidence.
6.Regardless of the legality itself of the war on drugs, there have been accusations of inequality in the prosecution of that war, claiming it disproportionately targets certain regimes and ethnic groups."

Aside from the fact that the federal government doesn't actually have the right to regulate substances, they often use their power to enact laws based upon finanial gain & moral based fear mongering without considering the effect they will have. Practically EVERY expert that has ever been asked by any governing body about criminalizing drugs has been against it. They are usually ignored and/or fired(such as this guy  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt).
Even the idea that the government is trying to protect people from "dangerous" substances doesn't really hold up since most of the drugs have never even had hearings, they were just scheduled along with lsd, & many of the drugs have caused 0 deaths to this day & have numerous medical uses(wich contradicts their scheduling).
Can anyone give a reason based on facts and logic why virtually harmless, non-addictive substances Should be illegal?






The argument that the federal government lacks the power to regulate drugs is a different issue...Even if that is true, that isn't an argument for legalization.  That is simply an argument for the end of the federal war on drugs.

The burden of proof argument is interesting, but the same can be said of many laws.  Our criminal justice system is vulnerable to the planting of evidence...period.

As far as the due process claims...whether you agree with it or not, that really only is an issue in terms of criminal prosecution...I already agree that it shouldn't be a crime...I'm just trying to figure out why others think it should be LEGAL.


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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918678 - 03/08/12 09:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

frylock91 said:
*We should be able to do to ourselves what we want.





Does that include ingesting potassium cyanide?  --if you want to kill yourself, why cant you? 
Quote:





*Taxing them could be beneficial




Not really an argument for legalization...we could legalize hitmen and tax that too..  --thats another can of worms.  doing harm to other people should always be wrong, unless with proper consent of both parties.

Quote:



*Could possibly cut down on drug related violence





Probably, but wouldn't drug related violence end altogether if people obeyed the current law?  Blaming the law for the actions of those who violate it is a pretty weak argument.
---expecting people to just "follow the law" is an even weaker argument and just silly.
ties.
Quote:



*Higher quality standards for them, so no cutting and lacing with bad shit





Probably true as well, but if something is deemed bad for society, it doesn't get better because it is higher quality.
--the point here isn't to make the usage problem "go away", it is to create a consistent product so that we can reduce the risk of death.  isn't that what laws deeming illegal substances ultimately for?... so that people aren't harming themselves???

Quote:



*There's already plenty of deadly shit that's legal anyway






Absolutely true.  This isn't really an argument for legalization as much as it is an argument for tighter controls on the other deadly shit
--i can't argue against that one.  this is kind of grasping at straws...
.




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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918707 - 03/08/12 10:05 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

blackstatis said:

---expecting people to just "follow the law" is an even weaker argument and just silly.
ties.




If that is the case, then why do you care if it is legal or not?  If expecting people to obey the law is "silly" then what does it matter what the laws are?


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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918716 - 03/08/12 10:06 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)





This might be true.  Does that mean society should throw its hands up and give up trying?  Software and music piracy will never be stopped...should we make that legal, too?
Quote:



i don't think you get it... stealing software and music harms the designer and artist.  this is not someone choosing to harm themselves.  if i could steal my own music, would there be a law against that? 





There are people who can drive very, very well at high speeds.  Does that mean that we should abolish speed limits?
Quote:



NO, we should not abolish speed limits, that would be insane and yet again another opportunity for people to risk harming other people against their will.  BUT... we do have public race tracks for people who "can drive very, very well at high speeds"  these race tracks also allow people who drive very, very bad at high speeds, but it allows for a place to go and do that.  they also offer safe training and education about racing and driving.


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Offlineblackstatis
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: Enlil]
    #15918729 - 03/08/12 10:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

blackstatis said:

---expecting people to just "follow the law" is an even weaker argument and just silly.
ties.




If that is the case, then why do you care if it is legal or not?  If expecting people to obey the law is "silly" then what does it matter what the laws are?




uhh...:huxleyfacepalm:

because, i'm not arguing "should people follow laws"

i am arguing in favor of having total freedom over your body and what you can do to it.  i am also in favor of people having a consistent product sold to them from a reputable and safe source and if things get out of hand and god forbid they get addicted, somewhere they can go and get treatment with out a criminal stigma.


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Invisibledizzy_simmons
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Re: Why should drugs be legal? [Re: blackstatis]
    #15918735 - 03/08/12 10:11 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Do you have an argument for why drugs should be criminalized? 'cuz the way I see it is if there's no benefit from the law, then why have it?
Even the U.N. has declared that the war on drugs has failed & that we need to start doing things differently, problem is no nation is required to actaully do what they say & we just keep ignoring the experts & nothing changes.


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