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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #19]
    #16972129 - 10/05/12 02:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The first thing to look at is what you were ticketed for. It should say on the ticket.  I'm pretty sure that it isn't a criminal conviction for a first time offense of under 30g.  Having said that, your prints and mugshot will remain in the system.  Once they're in there, they almost always stay forever.

A background check isn't likely to see anything at all.  Your bond forfeiture resulted in a conviction of an infraction.  Unless it is a deep government security check, it's unlikely that anyone is going to see that.  It's basically on the same level as a speeding ticket.

The arrest record will exist as well as the conviction.  This is important because a second offense could mean some time.


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InvisibleThin White Duke
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16975430 - 10/06/12 12:21 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Do you play this song to pump you up before a trial?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Thin White Duke] * 1
    #16976061 - 10/06/12 04:38 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Lol....no.  I tend to play a lot of Rage Against the Machine, Bad Religion, and Rise Against when prepping for a trial.


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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16976781 - 10/06/12 09:36 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Lol....no.  I tend to play a lot of Rage Against the Machine, Bad Religion, and Rise Against when prepping for a trial.





nice! =D


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Anonymous #24

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: prettyMushy]
    #16976833 - 10/06/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If this has already been answered in this thread, please reply as such.
and thanks for providing this service to the community.

When it comes to drugs in the mail, such as MDMA or other types of methamphetamine, if it was intercepted coming to ones name and address, is that enough for a warrant? Does one need to show consent by signing for the package? All shipments would be US domestic from various online sources.
Would LEO let the package go thru and then watch said address for more crimes? Is one scot-free once recieved?
Thanks in advance
(And again, sorry if already been addressed)

also, my want is to place a large order for personal use. 3 grams of MDMA to have for a long time and 2 or 3 grams of methamphetamine to have for a long time,so I dont need to order again.
I have no IRL connections and even though it's foolish to do so, I am having trouble talking myself out of this.
(also possibly 50 hits of LSD so I can sit for 5 years without needing to recomp)

Is it safe for me even posting this online?

Edited by Anonymous (10/06/12 10:06 AM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #24]
    #16976853 - 10/06/12 10:02 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Being addressed to someone is probably not enough, by itself, for a warrant.  The normal course of things for this type of situation is that the package will be delivered and then the place will be searched.  That way, the cops know they're gonna find drugs in your possession.  Before the package is delivered, there's every possibility that they'll find nothing and then have to somehow build an attempt case against you...that's generally difficult and not worth the time and cost.

Signing isn't really a requirement.  Once the package is in your house, you have exercised "dominion and control" over the package and its contents.  That's all that's required for possession.  Of course, if the package is unopened when they search the house, you've got a good chance of claiming that you didn't know what was in it.  If the package is open, however, then you're pretty much screwed.

As far as being scot-free...no...once the package is at your house, you are guilty of possession, and any search will yield prima facie evidence of that possession.


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Anonymous #24

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16976882 - 10/06/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I added an edit to the above post, probably not changing anything.

I live in a duplex with the front door leading to a shared staircase and then the doors for either apartment.

Is it in my control if it's left next to the front door, outside of both apartments with return to sender written on it and left for 2 weeks/.


edit...what if I took the package to a 3rd party location and left the house 'clean' for 3 weeks

Edited by Anonymous (10/06/12 10:12 AM)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #24]
    #16976894 - 10/06/12 10:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If you pick it up and write "return to sender" it is in your possession until it is deposted with/picked up by the USPS.

Having said that, if it is unopened, you have a very good shot at claiming ignorance as to the contents.


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Anonymous #24

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16976903 - 10/06/12 10:17 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Thanks a lot for your help.

It seems like 'everyone' does this and gets away with it, but the risk is just driving me crazy.
You've given me good info to think about, thanks again.

p.s. I am also a marijuana felon from years ago. I think I'll either pass or figure out a way to separate myself from this parcel.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #24]
    #16976904 - 10/06/12 10:17 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anonymous said:
edit...what if I took the package to a 3rd party location and left the house 'clean' for 3 weeks


Probable cause gets stale after awhile, so they're gonna search within days (probably hours) of the package being delivered.

I'm just here giving you the worst case scenario.  It's not likely that they'll find the drugs in the package in the first place.


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Edited by Enlil (10/17/12 10:37 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #24]
    #16976962 - 10/06/12 10:35 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

A suggestion: Find a house nearby that has been foreclosed by the bank and has no one living there. Then send the package there. It will be dropped off by the front door or mailbox. You can pick it up clandestinely when you're sure it's not being watched.

Another suggestion: do not ping the DCN using Tor. Tor is being flagged by the post office and can trigger extra scrutiny of your package. In fact, don't ping the DCN *AT ALL* unless the package goes missing. There's nothing you can do to speed things up, so pinging the DCN gains you absolutely nothing and risks connecting you to the package via IP trace.

If the package does go missing, then you're going to have to look up the DCN, but don't do it through the USPS web. Go to a third-party shipping site that can track packages and do the lookup there. Or do it from a library computer. That way there is one level of indirection between you and the package. All the post office or LEO will know is that it was checked from the third-party site by proxy. To connect it to you, they'd have to get a court order for the third-party site's IP logs then another court order for your ISP. It's a lot of trouble and there are easier pickins' for the cops to spend their effort on, so they'll leave you alone unless they have reason to go to the extra trouble.


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4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Anonymous #24

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16976986 - 10/06/12 10:46 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Good info, great thread.
Thanks a lot, gentlemen.

For me, the small risk of getting busted and doing a good amount of time isn't worth trying new drugs and getting high.
I like to know as much as I can about something before I go about it.
Having the info I recieved here, I think I'm going to brainstorm more ways to completely seperate myself from the shipment.
If I lose $400 it'll suck, but I'd rather have a greater chance of losing a lot of money than risking my freedom even more than I do now.

Diploid has a good idea, I just fear the postman will know the house is unoccupied and not deliver there. I think I would rather attempt that than send it to my name and address.....as mentioned above.
Thanks again, gentlemen

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16977047 - 10/06/12 11:03 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've heard the same thing about usps flagging tor but using tor is not a crime and there are always new exit nodes so any data base used by the post office may not be up to date. I would suggest using a vpn or a proxy to check since they would not be able to flag that.

I will have to say do not use a foreclosed or empty house for your drop point. Its a very bad idea even though it looks good on paper. The reason being that postal workers know what houses are lived in and what houses are not. They will even ask neighbors if anyone is living there if they are in doubt. If your package is delivered between the time the owners move out and before the postman gets wise, it may work. Unless they put in a change of address which you have no way of knowing. Bulk mail will often keep being delivered even with a change of address. Have it sent to your home and your name because that does not prove you ordered it and mailmen have been known to send back mail addressed to a name they know does not live there.

I want to pick a bone with enlil. One may be in "possession" of drugs simply by having a package in their hands or in the house but to be charged with criminal possession means knowingly possessing it. You alluded to that in saying the person might get away with saying they didn't know what was in it if the package was unopened. I just wanted to emphasize that they have to show that the person knowingly possessed the drugs. This could be shown by going to the door and asking questions. If the person lies that could indicate guilty knowledge.

As i said in a previous post, an employee of the post office who worked in the dept that investigated drug shipments said they would get a warrant when the box was opened and had drugs. However, and this point was made clear, the warrant was not executed unless the person signed for the package. If they refused to take it, the cops and postal inspectors could do nothing. In the case of a package left in the mailbox, that was less clear. If it was a non signature delivery all they could do is wait for the person to take it in, come to the door later and try to get them to incriminate themselves.

The part i'm not sure about is if a non signature package is left, can they execute the warrant simply by waiting until it was taken in or must they get other evidence? I'm not aware of cases that make this clear, are you enlil? If so, then you could get someone raided by simply mailing them a package with a small amount of drugs inside, rubbing a little smelly pot on the outside, using a fake return addy, lots of packing tape, and other things they look for.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16977159 - 10/06/12 11:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"knowing" is the level of mens rea required for the controlled substance element of the crime, sure...but to say that they have to prove knowledge is a bit of a misleading statement.  Knowledge can and will be inferred simply by the package being in the house and addressed to the person.  Such an inferrence can be undercut by a defense, but a prima facie showing is made simply by having the package in the house and addressed to you.

It's a question of burden of proof.  The state's gonna make a prima facie case, and then the defense will have the burden of undercutting the mens rea.  That's not that easy without testimony from the defendant....which adds a whole other layer of risk and complexity to the case.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16977225 - 10/06/12 11:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've heard the same thing about usps flagging tor but using tor is not a crime

You're not going to get in trouble for using Tor because it's not a crime. But it's also not a crime to notice you're using Tor, then walking the drug sniffing dog past your package just in case.

The USPS has the most advanced forensics team in the world after the FBI. Don't tempt fate. You're not going to speed up your package by pinging the DCN. Just wait. If it's late, then go look. Not before. You gain nothing and risk everything.


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3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Anonymous #24

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16977565 - 10/06/12 12:45 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

So, what I'm gathering here is this.
The safest route for getting something mailed to your name and address is to place the order and have it shipped to the best of the sellers ability. Have the package not require a signature. Once delivered and sitting on the porch, let it sit there until you're certain it is not being watched. At that point, grab the package and take it to a neutral location to sit for a good amount of time.
Go home (to your 100% clean house) and go about your life. If they come and try shit, you're not gonna be in possesion of anything illegal. Also, clearing your PC of tor and other 'shady' bookmarks.
Once a set amount of time passes it's relativly safe to grab your package and enjoy.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #24]
    #16978547 - 10/06/12 03:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

enlil:

" Knowledge can and will be inferred simply by the package being in the house and addressed to the person.  Such an inferrence can be undercut by a defense, but a prima facie showing is made simply by having the package in the house and addressed to you."

Yes, but what i would like to know, and i'm sure many others are interested in knowing, is do they in practice get a warrant based on a package being delivered and taken inside the house? Have you heard of them getting a warrant in advance based on the package and not conditional upon signature? Or do they have to wait until its taken inside to execute the warrant they already have, or wait for questioning to establish mens rea before getting the warrant, or what have you heard about in terms of actual cases?

#24, that sounds like a good plan

"The safest route for getting something mailed to your name and address is to place the order and have it shipped to the best of the sellers ability. Have the package not require a signature. Once delivered and sitting on the porch, let it sit there until you're certain it is not being watched. At that point, grab the package and take it to a neutral location to sit for a good amount of time."

If its in your mailbox that may not constitute possession under enlil's definition. So, if you leave it there and do not take it inside, wait until late at night having gone in and out a number of times to survey the neighborhood, that should do the job. That is probably overkill but i've found that cops are not like super spies you see in the movies. They tend to be very obvious if you look for them. Look for anyone out of place, people wearing hard hats by a manhole who do no work and just stand around and watch people, etc. That may sound a lot like city workers in your area :wink: but cops will not rent a house next door, drive past 1000 times or other spy type tactics. Also look for a car or van parked nearby that you haven't seen before with blacked out windows or people sitting inside.

Assuming they can not execute or get a warrant without you taking in the package, that might be better than the usual advice of leaving it sit by the door unopened. If your house is 100% clean then you have no worries but how many people can be sure of that?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16978651 - 10/06/12 04:01 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Yes, but what i would like to know, and i'm sure many others are interested in knowing, is do they in practice get a warrant based on a package being delivered and taken inside the house? Have you heard of them getting a warrant in advance based on the package and not conditional upon signature? Or do they have to wait until its taken inside to execute the warrant they already have, or wait for questioning to establish mens rea before getting the warrant, or what have you heard about in terms of actual cases?




Cops rarely, if ever, worry about mens rea.  They focus on the act usually and let the lawyers worry about the mens rea.  Proving mens rea in a possession case is rarely difficult.  Only in cases where someone is paid to deliver a box and has no idea what's in it...shit like that.

Cops can get a search warrant to be executed at the time of delivery or obtain one after delivery.  It doesn't matter.  A signature doesn't help with mens rea one way or the other because a signature is obtained before the contents of the box are revealed to the signer.  In addition, most people will sign to accept a package even if they don't know what it is.

Mens rea needs to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  In practice, however, this is not a very difficult thing to do in most cases.  Juries are tasked with fact finding.  They are allowed to make any reasonable inferences from the evidence presented.  In most cases, if someone stabs another person, the jury is going to infer that they meant to stab the dude unless evidence is presented which casts doubt on that inference.  The same goes with possession.  If you have a bag of weed in your house, the inference will be that you knew it was weed.  Certainly, there are cases where things are different.  If you have a weed plant in your unkempt backyard, the inference might not be as strong, etc.

In this situation, if a package is delivered to your house addressed to your name, the inference is that you ordered it.  Of course, there are circumstances where that inference would be incorrect...and a defense attorney can argue those and present evidence to support such arguments, but a strong case is one where a defense doesn't present anything.  The more your case hinges on a defense case-in-chief, the riskier the whole deal becomes.


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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16978697 - 10/06/12 04:12 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Enlil, where is this mens rea requirement derived from?  The sources I looked at some years ago suggested there was no clear agreement that such was required under the US constitution.  IS this a state issue your discussing?

Anyways, I've read a number of cases describing such seizures, and they usually have an anticipatory warrant granting permission to search only after the package is delivered.  This makes sense to me since they would have probably cause that drugs are then in the house- whether its enough for a conviction wouldn't seem particularly relevant to the warrant thing, and since everbody just confesses anyways, it probably doesn't come up so much.

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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
    #16978781 - 10/06/12 04:30 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That's the normal course of events...the warrants are generally conditional on delivery.

As far as mens rea requirements, it's statutory.  There are some "strict liability" crimes that have no mens rea requirement for certain elements.  Statutory rape is one such crime. The Constitution doesn't require a mens rea at all.

Most states have adopted a form of the Model Penal Code.  The MPC is very mens rea oriented and tends to focus on punishing evil intentions more than evil acts.  Criminal law before the MPC was very act oriented and many people were convicted of inadvertent crimes.  The MPC was designed to minimize this type of thing by requiring an "evil act" to have an "evil mind" behind it.

There is an entire formula for determining the mens rea of a given element based on how a statute is written, but for most laws, courts have long ago done this leg work.  As a result, it's pretty easy to find the mens rea standard for the elements of most crimes.


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