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Anonymous #78
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Enlil]
#27208307 - 02/15/21 08:45 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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If someone is reported as growing through a tip line, what is the chance of it being investigated and if so, what avenues of investigation are expected?
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
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Quote:
Anonymous #78 said: If someone is reported as growing through a tip line, what is the chance of it being investigated and if so, what avenues of investigation are expected?
Depends on what the report says and how busy they are. Often they'll steal your garbage and look for pot seeds or anything illegal, and if so get a warrant based on that. They might pull you over for minor traffic violations, or watch the house for sketchy visitors and pull those people over.
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Sidestreet
Digging for Rainbows



Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 225
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: koods]
#27210453 - 02/17/21 03:36 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Not sure you want to trust this guy, considering his legal argument is based on his layman’s understanding of chemistry.
Quote:
An isomer is a type of chemical analog. Specifically, an isomer is one of two or more compounds that contain the same number of atoms of the same elements but differ in structural arrangement and properties. There are thirty (30) known THC isomers. Δ8THC and Δ9THC differ with respect to the location of a single double bond
I see your point (even though I don't understand chemistry well enough to know what he got wrong) but he's a lawyer, not a chemist. The question would be whether his legal argument is marred by the lack of expert knowledge. I don't know the answer, but if you have it I'd sincerely like to hear it.
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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The difference of a single double bond is what separates the two structurally and that difference alone is why it is not an analog of delta 9, it's it's own cannabinoid.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
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Anonymous #78
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Anonymous #78 said: If someone is reported as growing through a tip line, what is the chance of it being investigated and if so, what avenues of investigation are expected?
Depends on what the report says and how busy they are. Often they'll steal your garbage and look for pot seeds or anything illegal, and if so get a warrant based on that. They might pull you over for minor traffic violations, or watch the house for sketchy visitors and pull those people over.
Thanks for the reply.
The report can't say much unless lies were involved.
The main concerns are, vague but sketchy text messages that may have been sent a couple years ago before dude started using whatsapp. Is it possible to subpoena a person's text messages based on a tip? Or subpoena an ISP for browsing history?
And if such a thing happens, can a person be convicted based on that information, in lieu of physical evidence?
Another minor concern, can a warrant be issued because the neighbors say they have seen people come and go?
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,893
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Doc9151]
#27210825 - 02/17/21 09:26 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc9151 said: The difference of a single double bond is what separates the two structurally and that difference alone is why it is not an analog of delta 9, it's it's own cannabinoid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol
Difference is a single double bond. Considered an analog and set precedent
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,427
Last seen: 15 hours, 54 minutes
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Quote:
Anonymous #78 said: The main concerns are, vague but sketchy text messages that may have been sent a couple years ago before dude started using whatsapp. Is it possible to subpoena a person's text messages based on a tip? Or subpoena an ISP for browsing history?
Text messages sent a couple years ago aren't going to be very relevant.
It's also very unlikely that law enforcement is able to subpoena the content of text messages, and gets even more unlikely with the passing of time.
See https://news.law.fordham.edu/jcfl/2016/06/02/cell-phone-forensics-powerful-tools-wielded-by-federal-investigators/
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And if such a thing happens, can a person be convicted based on that information, in lieu of physical evidence?
More details are needed here, but the answer is usually no with regards to drug crimes.
Quote:
Another minor concern, can a warrant be issued because the neighbors say they have seen people come and go?
Probable cause is needed for a warrant, and visitors alone isn't probable cause - but the police have lots of tricks to gather information for a warrant. They could look through your windows or sort through your garbage.
Safest thing to do is clean house for 6 months if you think they might get a warrant.
I am not a lawyer and a real lawyer might answer these questions differently.
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
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Loc: Gaming the system
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I had a roommate who ran a business buying and selling cellphones. Most of it was online but a good number of people would meet him at our place.
Anyway a neighbor must’ve called the cops because they ended up somehow watching the house for like a week and then basically just rolled up one time and said “so, dealing drugs huh? We’ve been watching the house and seen all the traffic coming and going and seen people buying stuff.”
He explained the phone business and showed them all the phones and they left. I’m really surprised they didn’t kick the door in based on how it looked, I guess they must’ve needed proof there were drugs first especially since neither of us has a record.
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LAGM2020     
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Doc9151 said: The difference of a single double bond is what separates the two structurally and that difference alone is why it is not an analog of delta 9, it's it's own cannabinoid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol
Difference is a single double bond. Considered an analog and set precedent
That was later overturned, look under legality in this link and you will see exactly what I posted below. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol
A federal case in New York in 2002 ruled that 1,4-butanediol could not be considered an analog of GHB under federal law,[19] but that decision was later overturned by the Second Circuit.[20] However, a jury in Federal District Court in Chicago found that 1,4-butanediol was not be an analog of GHB under federal law, and the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals upheld that verdict
Edit: So it's not a violation of federal law but could violate state law.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
Edited by Doc9151 (02/17/21 04:02 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,893
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Doc9151]
#27211651 - 02/17/21 05:28 PM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sidestreet
Digging for Rainbows



Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 225
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Doc9151]
#27212353 - 02/18/21 04:24 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc9151 said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Doc9151 said: The difference of a single double bond is what separates the two structurally and that difference alone is why it is not an analog of delta 9, it's it's own cannabinoid.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Hydroxybutyric_acid
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol
Difference is a single double bond. Considered an analog and set precedent
That was later overturned, look under legality in this link and you will see exactly what I posted below. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,4-Butanediol
A federal case in New York in 2002 ruled that 1,4-butanediol could not be considered an analog of GHB under federal law,[19] but that decision was later overturned by the Second Circuit.[20] However, a jury in Federal District Court in Chicago found that 1,4-butanediol was not be an analog of GHB under federal law, and the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals upheld that verdict
Edit: So it's not a violation of federal law but could violate state law.
Woof. What a rabbit hole. The two appellate cases in question are
U.S. v. Roberts, 363 F.3d 118 (2nd Cir. 2004)
and
U.S. v. Turcotte, 405 F.3d 515 (7th Cir. 2005).
The Roberts Court:
Quote:
We conclude that, because 1,4-butanediol both (a) differs from gamma hydroxybutyric acid ("GHB"), a Schedule I controlled substance, by only two atoms and (b) converts into GHB upon ingestion, it is sufficiently clear that 1,4-butanediol ["BD"] is "substantially similar [in] chemical structure" to GHB, as that term is used in § 802(32)(A)'s definition of "controlled substance analogue," and, hence, that the definition as applied in this case does not violate the Constitution. The defendants do not contest that 1,4-butanediol meets the other statutory criteria for being a controlled substance analogue.
...
We conclude that the Act's definition of "controlled substance analogue" gives the public clear enough warning that 1,4-butanediol qualifies as a controlled substance analogue and sufficiently limits prosecutorial and judicial discretion in its enforcement, and that, therefore, the definition of "controlled substance analogue" is not unconstitutionally vague as applied to 1,4-butanediol. Accordingly, we VACATE the judgment of the district court and REMAND for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
This is strong precedent against Defendants charged for BD under the Analogue Act, but is only THE LAW in the 2nd Circuit. Each circuit only has to follow its own Court of Appeals' interpretations of the law, unless the U.S. Supreme Court weighs in. However, the circuits' interpretations may be persuasive for other circuits.
In Turcotte the jury convicted the Defendant on his BD charge, but it was on what the Court found was an erroneous jury instruction regarding the Analogue Act. Because the conviction on that count didn't affect sentencing, though, the Court didn't reverse the judgment based on that. So, the jury's conviction actually stood in that case.
AND look at this paragraph, you chemistry buffs, especially the citation in the last sentence regarding BD in the 8th Circuit:
Quote:
In amending the Controlled Substances Act to include GHB, Congress declared that "if taken for human consumption, common industrial chemicals such as gamma butyrolactone [GBL] and 1,4-butanediol [BD] are swiftly converted by the body into GHB. Illicit use of these and other GHB analogues and precursor chemicals is a significant and growing law enforcement problem." Pub. Law No. 106-172, § 2(4) (2000) (emphasis added). DEA regulations also specify that "GBL and 1,4-butanediol are structurally and pharmacologically similar to GHB and are often substituted for GHB. Under certain circumstances they may satisfy the definition of a controlled substance analogue." Placement of Gamma-Butyrolactone in List I of the Controlled Substances Act, 65 Fed.Reg. 21,645-47 (April 24, 2000) (emphasis added). As the Second Circuit asserted in Ansaldi,"[r]egardless of any other ways in which the laws governing controlled substance[s] might be vague, there is one thing they make perfectly clear — the sale of GBL for human consumption is illegal." 372 F.3d at 122. Cf. United States v. Washam, 312 F.3d 926, 931 (8th Cir.2002) (holding that these Congressional pronouncements also confirm BD's status as a controlled substance analogue).
All of this is to say that there's strong precedent all around that 1,4-butanediol is considered an analogue under federal law in much of the country (unless there are newer cases saying something different. I didn't check.)
But, with Delta-8-THC, there's different stuff going on. D8THC doesn't convert to D9THC in the blood, does it? Also, have there been Congressional pronouncements about D8THC as with GHB, GBL, and BD?
Most importantly, the Farm Bill seems to provide a pathway to legal D8THC derived from hemp, even if D8 would otherwise qualify as an analogue to D9. If hemp is legal and everything derived from hemp is legal as long as it has less than .3% D9THC, then isn't D8THC legal under federal law?
Edited by Sidestreet (02/18/21 04:25 AM)
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Ogla



Registered: 02/16/04
Posts: 11,377
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Can a case for drug possession get dismissed if the only reason for a traffic stop was a blinker that was on and temporarily forgot to shut off? Is that enough probable cause to pull a car over?
Can police search a car if it was totaled in a wreck without probable cause?
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Anonymous #169
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Ogla]
#27225727 - 02/25/21 10:54 AM (3 years, 4 months ago) |
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What are the legal risks of living with an active cultivator? If they go down, what happens to the roomies and how can roomies minimize risk?
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Sidestreet
Digging for Rainbows



Registered: 09/14/06
Posts: 225
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Quote:
What are the legal risks of living with an active cultivator? If they go down, what happens to the roomies and how can roomies minimize risk?
I certainly wouldn't want to live with a cultivator who gets busted. Partly because my stuff could get tossed just as hard as theirs when the search warrant is executed. But also because I could be charged as an accessory (see below).
Roommates living with a grower really put their safety into the hands of the grower. I might ask myself: is the grower dealing? Are there people in and out of the house? How big are the grows, how smart and careful do I think this person is, and how widely-known is it that they are growing?
Quote:
Accessory
Aiding or contributing in a secondary way or assisting in or contributing to as a subordinate.
In Criminal Law, contributing to or aiding in the commission of a crime. One who, without being present at the commission of an offense, becomes guilty of such offense, not as a chief actor, but as a participant, as by command, advice, instigation, or concealment; either before or after the fact or commission.
One who aids, abets, commands, or counsels another in the commission of a crime.
In common law, an accessory could not be found guilty unless the actual perpetrator was convicted. In most U.S. jurisdictions today, however, an accessory can be convicted even if the principal actor is not arrested or is acquitted. The prosecution must establish that the accessory in some way instigated, furthered, or concealed the crime. Typically, punishment for a convicted accessory is not as severe as that for the perpetrator.
An accessory must knowingly promote or contribute to the crime. In other words, she or he must aid or encourage the offense deliberately, not accidentally. The accessory may withdraw from the crime by denouncing the plans, refusing to assist with the crime, contacting the police, or trying to stop the crime from occurring.
An accessory after the fact is someone who knows that a crime has occurred but nonetheless helps to conceal it. Today, this action is often termed obstructing justice or harboring a fugitive.
An infamous accessory after the fact was Dr. Samuel A. Mudd, the physician and Confederate sympathizer who set John Wilkes Booth's leg after it was broken when the assassin jumped from President Abraham Lincoln's box at Ford Theater. Despite Mudd's protestation of innocence, he was tried and convicted as an accessory after the fact in Lincoln's murder. He was sentenced to life imprisonment at Fort Jefferson in the Dry Tortugas off Key West, Florida. President Andrew Johnson pardoned Mudd in 1869, and the U.S. Congress gave him an official pardon in 1979.
https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/accessory
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A.k.a
Stranger



Registered: 10/27/19
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I have zero legal knowledge so I might be way off, but...
I believe if you’re living with roommates anything accessible to everybody you could be caught up over. If they’re growing in their own private room with a lock that only they have a key to it might be isolated to only that person.
I’m basing this off when I rented rooms and had a renter on probation. When his PO came they could search that guys room and any common areas only.
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Sidestreet
Digging for Rainbows



Registered: 09/14/06
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Ogla]
#27231483 - 03/01/21 03:53 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
losfreddy said: Can a case for drug possession get dismissed if the only reason for a traffic stop was a blinker that was on and temporarily forgot to shut off? Is that enough probable cause to pull a car over?
If a forgotten blinker can be construed as being an infraction, they can pull you over. After that, any evidence found pursuant to a lawful investigation is admissible. Many traffic stops are pretextual, meaning the police are using the infraction as an excuse to pull someone over so that they can get a closer look and start an investigation into something more serious. Police lean heavily on the tactic but it's controversial because it can play into prejudices. Ever heard of "driving while black"?
The police can find an infraction on almost anyone if they follow them for a few minutes. I mean, it's almost weird to find someone who's not speeding.
Here's a paper on the practice. There's a good hypothetical story on the first few pages: https://digitalcommons.law.utulsa.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://duckduckgo.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1240&context=fac_pub
It's older but U.S. v. Whren is still good law for the most part. 517 U.S. 806, 819, 116 S.Ct. 1769, 135 L.Ed.2d 89 (1996), rev'd on other grounds by 587 F.3d 401 (D.C.Cir.2009).
Quote:
Can police search a car if it was totaled in a wreck without probable cause?
I'm out of time, but I'd be shocked if they could not. The fact of the accident alone may provide the justification needed.
Edited by Sidestreet (03/01/21 04:02 AM)
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Anonymous #161
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So My landlord of almost 8 years is telling me to GTFO she wants to move in the house. I know she is breaching her loan by allowing us to live here.
can she do anything about it with out hurting herself as well?
I fully intent to move just in about 3 months not the 30 days she requested. but it's family so gonna be dicks....
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Doc9151
Mycologist



Registered: 02/23/17
Posts: 13,753
Loc: Gulf Coast USA
Last seen: 1 year, 11 months
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Quote:
Anonymous #161 said: So My landlord of almost 8 years is telling me to GTFO she wants to move in the house. I know she is breaching her loan by allowing us to live here.
can she do anything about it with out hurting herself as well?
I fully intent to move just in about 3 months not the 30 days she requested. but it's family so gonna be dicks....
If you can move, you should move, particularly if the family member was doing you a favor. If, you can't move on in 30 days due to legitimate reasons, then you should be straight with said family member and see if you can work something out that benefits you both. Why create bad blood with family, unless of course they are being unreasonable, then do what you gotta do, but to be nasty because she wants her home back is un called for, it's hers.
--------------------
  Psilocybe cubensis data collection thread. please help with this project if you hunt wild cubensis. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=26513593&page=0&vc=1#26513593
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filthyknees
no coincidence


Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 6,283
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Re: Ask an attorney [Re: Doc9151] 4
#27238214 - 03/05/21 06:45 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Wow I had no idea so many of you are attorneys .
-------------------- But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow That it's one thing to try and another to fly You get there quicker just a step at a time It's one thing to bark, another to bite The show ain't over till you pack up at night
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Anonymous #161
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In my area it takes 6 weeks to close on a house, and I'm still waiting for my credit to turn over from paying all of my wife and I's credit cards. 1 month is really an impossibility because I'd have to use my credit for a hotel, your credit can't change 1 point till house closes. Gonna be at least 3 month. I've already found a lot of houses in a few states just waiting on credit to turn over.
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