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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Have you explored the option of asking to make payments with no interest? You can claim poverty and if you come up with the money later, it was from a relative or somesuch. If they think you will pay up in full, they may be unlikely to take payments but bring some info on garnishment laws in your state and they may think its better to settle and take payments. Best case is you get the $5400 settlement and make payments with no interest, worse case they say cash or we go to trial. Its always worth a try, i would think. If they say payments are ok but no reduction, full 6200, then if you have the cash you might as well pay off and save the hassle and extra cost.
From their point of view, they don't know if you have the money or not and may have to chase you for it. A bird in the hand might be better than going to court and trying to collect. Many years ago, i had a hospital bill and started sending them $25 a month. They threatened to put a lien on my home but the fact they had taken payments made it a defacto payment plan and they finally caved in and agreed to take the payments. Today i would just pay it off, it all depends on your situation.
For anyone in a similar bind, where it has not gone as far as this situation has, consider just sending in payments that you can easily afford. Check with a local attorney about what rights that may give you. In my case, there was no prior agreement, i just started sending it in.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16841070 - 09/13/12 01:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks again for the advice.
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16841600 - 09/13/12 03:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: Have you explored the option of asking to make payments with no interest?
No, I had not thought of that, but I may use that as a negotiating chip.
Quote:
Stonehenge said: From their point of view, they don't know if you have the money or not and may have to chase you for it.
They do, actually... I settled four other accounts like this in the past three months, and they have the ability to see my credit report. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a person who has settled tens of thousands in debt in the past few months has some form of income. In addition, I also told them that I was working (but not where) the last time that I talked with them.
This debt has been outstanding for years, and no lawsuit, until I started settling stuff; then, BAM, I got the summons.
Thanks for the input. As discussed with Enlil, the problem is that I'm working and earning a salary, have the money to pay, and am saving towards a house. This stupid suit could add another 1% interest to a mortgage, and that will probably be a lot more than 6.2K.
Maybe I could get fired or laid off, go back on unemployment, and blow my savings on cocaine so that I don't have to pay them? Ha! Fuck them! Who's laughing now?? Have fun trying to collect!
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/13/12 03:32 PM)
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trip352
the not so new guy



Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 418
Last seen: 8 years, 3 months
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http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16831024
I would like imput on this from a defense attorney... Or for that matter anyone that hasn't already looked at my other thread
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Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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>I settled four other accounts like this in the past three months, and they have the ability to see my credit report. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a person who has settled tens of thousands in debt in the past few months has some form of income.
Not necessarily, you might have settled for pennies on the dollar or some other arrangement. If you don't ask them you never know what they might say. Its good you decided to settle rather than become a hermit or something. Something every month looks good when the debt has been outstanding for a long time.
>Maybe I could get fired or laid off, go back on unemployment, and blow my savings on cocaine so that I don't have to pay them? Ha! Fuck them! Who's laughing now?? Have fun trying to collect!
You know better.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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curiousblue
Stranger
Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 68
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: the role of logic in law [Re: Enlil]
#16842515 - 09/13/12 06:36 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all, a tip of the hat and deep bow to you for offering such a well informed,and humble forum, as in if you have no idea or only a guess, you offer no BS. It furthers the cause of social justice in many ways.
Here is a question of my own: And perhaps sufficiently sensitive to deserve no response--I'll let the mods decide. How is it possible to maintain a business such as supplying spores which if grown result in illegal activity, yet the only source of said spores is an illegal fruitbody? I guess my question more generally stated is what role does logic itself provide evidence of illegal activity versus the usual sort of incriminating "evidence" such as testimony or seizure of physical evidence. I have been hired as an expert witness in several trials and have made sufficiently logical and ultimately persuasive arguments to help make the day, but these were civil and not criminal matters such as physician malpractice--not that I'm sure that makes any difference whatsoever. I guess my question boils down to the following--where is the line beteen evidence, so called circumstantial evidence, and pure but practically irrefutable inference? Thanks in advance for any light shed.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: the role of logic in law [Re: curiousblue]
#16842708 - 09/13/12 07:18 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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There is no irrefutable evidence. It's a theoretical ideal that doesn't exist in the real world. All evidence points one direction or another. A jury decides how much "weight" a particular piece of evidence holds. After weighing all of it, they make a decision...or not.
In the purest sense, circumstantial evidence is evidence that allows one to infer a fact in issue. Direct evidence requires no inference. In law school, they use the example of proving that it rained overnight...Wet ground in the morning is strong circumstantial evidence that it rained. A person testifying that they were outside and saw it rain is direct evidence.
In the first situation, the reasonable inference is that it rained, but other evidence (like the presence of sprinklers on a timer) might make other inferences more likely. Circumstantial evidence can be attacked by challenging the inference. Direct evidence can only be attacked by challenging the credibility of the witness.
Of course, the credibility of circumstantial evidence can be attacked as well.
To your practical example, possession of spores is very strong circumstantial evidence that someone is growing shrooms...but they might have been harvested in the wild. It is somewhat less strong evidence that the vendor grew shrooms.
Is it enough to get a warrant? Probably. Is it enough to convict? Not even close.
Those vendors have to walk a fine line. They have to be careful about making admissions...and they have to be careful about where they get their spores...but if they are careful, the risk of charges or conviction are very, very low.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I think the defense is that the spores are "imported" from countries where the mushrooms are legal. A prosecutor would have to prove otherwise, and the vendors are careful to keep business office and grows well segregated. If the business office is raided, there would be nothing illegal there. And finding where the grow is would be pretty hard because there's no trail there. In fact, Matias Romero, the guy who developed the original PF strain and tek, got snagged by DEA exactly because he got sloppy about segregating the two activities.
Also, my understanding is that selling the spores AND also the equipment to grow is a big no-no. Conspiracy, I think, but Enlil will let us know the definitive answer. That's why there are spore-only vendors and equipment-only vendors, but nobody sells both. Providing instructions with the spores or email support for growing them is also a no-no, so they don't do that.
If you ask for growing help, they'll tell you that the spores are strictly for microscopy study only. That's legal in the US currently.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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curiousblue
Stranger
Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 68
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: the role of logic in law [Re: Enlil]
#16842865 - 09/13/12 07:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thank you, very helpful. And confirmed my suspicions--to get a warrant under such circmstances, not so hard. Conviction much iffier.As it should be. Just seeking some understanding in these legally challenged times. You rock.
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curiousblue
Stranger
Registered: 09/04/12
Posts: 68
Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16842976 - 09/13/12 08:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid, I have followed your trevails here and sympathize. The import argument occured to me, but then I imagined some proof of such transactions as in correspondence, payments, whatever demanded. Lacking such proof Occams razor slits your throat. Of course one could argue mycological societies, openware exchange sites, etc.
I'm not even remotely interested in opening such a biz, but see the loophole and wondered about it. Law is both so curious and dead/entrenched/unfair-- a true contradiction in terms.
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Penis Envy
Amateur Mycologist


Registered: 05/13/12
Posts: 71
Loc: Dallas Texas
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16843196 - 09/13/12 08:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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How easy is it for cops to get a warrant to search a residence? If someone called an anonymous tip of a grow (say a person seeking revenge who heard you talking about growing), could they act on it, even if the caller has never seen the grow? What evidence would they need to execute a warrant and how long would they investigate after tip is made?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
curiousblue said: Diploid, I have followed your trevails here and sympathize. The import argument occured to me, but then I imagined some proof of such transactions as in correspondence, payments, whatever demanded. Lacking such proof Occams razor slits your throat. Of course one could argue mycological societies, openware exchange sites, etc.
I'm not even remotely interested in opening such a biz, but see the loophole and wondered about it. Law is both so curious and dead/entrenched/unfair-- a true contradiction in terms.
Never forget that the burden of proof is on the state...not the defendant. It isn't enough for the state to argue, "If he didn't grow shrooms, then why didn't he prove where he got the spores?" It's the state's job to prove that he had shrooms.
And in answer to Diploid, yes...having both growing advise/equipment and spores is much, much riskier. In that case, there's quite a bit of evidence that you're helping someone else manufacture a scheduled substance.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Penis Envy]
#16844085 - 09/13/12 10:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Penis Envy said: How easy is it for cops to get a warrant to search a residence? If someone called an anonymous tip of a grow (say a person seeking revenge who heard you talking about growing), could they act on it, even if the caller has never seen the grow? What evidence would they need to execute a warrant and how long would they investigate after tip is made?
Anonymous tips are only enough for a warrant if there are enough verifiable facts in the tip that give rise to probable cause. For instance, if the tip says, "At 45 main street, you'll find a guy named Arnold Brown. He has a Blue 1984 Toyota Corolla with a broken side window. He goes there every monday and thursday at 9 am and stays there until about 4 pm. In side the house, he has a large marijuana grow operation consisting of three separate bedrooms converted into grow rooms." If the cops go to the place and see that, in fact, a 1984 blue corolla, owned by arnold brown, arrives at the house on those days at those times...that's enough verifiable information to give the rest of the tip credibility.
That's an extreme example, and most anonymous tips have less information than that...The less verifiably true information (and the more verifiably false information), the less reliable the tip is and less likely to support a warrant.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16844092 - 09/13/12 10:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Penis Envy said: How easy is it for cops to get a warrant to search a residence? If someone called an anonymous tip of a grow (say a person seeking revenge who heard you talking about growing), could they act on it, even if the caller has never seen the grow? What evidence would they need to execute a warrant and how long would they investigate after tip is made?
Anonymous tips are only enough for a warrant if there are enough verifiable facts in the tip that give rise to probable cause. For instance, if the tip says, "At 45 main street, you'll find a guy named Arnold Brown. He has a Blue 1984 Toyota Corolla with a broken side window. He goes there every monday and thursday at 9 am and stays there until about 4 pm. In side the house, he has a large marijuana grow operation consisting of three separate bedrooms converted into grow rooms." If the cops go to the place and see that, in fact, a 1984 blue corolla, owned by arnold brown, arrives at the house on those days at those times...that's enough verifiable information to give the rest of the tip credibility.
That's an extreme example, and most anonymous tips have less information than that...The less verifiably true information (and the more verifiably false information), the less reliable the tip is and less likely to support a warrant.
So I could say something like, "The sky is blue, and my neighbor is growing and selling mushrooms", and that would be enough to warrant a search?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: So I could say something like, "The sky is blue, and my neighbor is growing and selling mushrooms", and that would be enough to warrant a search?
That's EXACTLY what I just said.
Please, if you're going to argue some absurd point, post it in one of the debate forums.
Saying in a tip that the sky is blue gives absolutely no indication that the tipster has any inside information whatsoever....therefore, it gives no credibility to the tip.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16844134 - 09/13/12 10:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Chill out man it's just a joke
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16844148 - 09/13/12 11:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: Anonymous tips are only enough for a warrant if there are enough verifiable facts in the tip that give rise to probable cause. For instance, if the tip says, "At 45 main street, you'll find a guy named Arnold Brown. He has a Blue 1984 Toyota Corolla with a broken side window. He goes there every monday and thursday at 9 am and stays there until about 4 pm. In side the house, he has a large marijuana grow operation consisting of three separate bedrooms converted into grow rooms." If the cops go to the place and see that, in fact, a 1984 blue corolla, owned by arnold brown, arrives at the house on those days at those times...that's enough verifiable information to give the rest of the tip credibility.
That's an extreme example, and most anonymous tips have less information than that...The less verifiably true information (and the more verifiably false information), the less reliable the tip is and less likely to support a warrant.
But on a more serious note, in your example, I could still see it being argued that the tipster did NOT have insider information, even though he gave such an accurate and detailed description of what would happen.
Who's to say that Arnold Brown wasn't just driving to and from work on those days in his 1984 Corolla?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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I read your reply after replying to yet another "Enlil is a paid employee of the evil, oppressive system so he shouldn't be trusted" post in another thread...Even a sociopath can get cranky at times.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 68,233
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Celestial Traveler said: But on a more serious note, in your example, I could still see it being argued that the tipster did NOT have insider information, even though he gave such an accurate and detailed description of what would happen.
Who's to say that Arnold Brown wasn't just driving to and from work on those days in his 1984 Corolla?
The tip doesn't need to establish proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt...it just needs to provide probable cause. The same probable cause that "smelling marijuana" provides a cop on the side of the road.
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16844161 - 09/13/12 11:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
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