|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Ask an attorney 43
#15908891 - 03/06/12 12:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
It occurred to me that many of you may have legal questions or issues that you would like answered, but you don't want to pay an attorney. I have decided to answer whatever legal questions you might have with the following caveats:
1. I am a licensed attorney who practices in many areas of the law including criminal defense, but I am not YOUR attorney. This means that you should not be giving me any confidential information that you wouldn't want to give the whole community and anyone else watching. Keeping it anonymous helps you keep safe and helps me stay within ethical rules.
2. Law varies from state to state. If you give me the state you're from, I will try to give you as much specific information as I can. I can't guarantee the accuracy of anything because there could always be a state in which things are different. Information I offer should be considered general in nature and might not take local law into consideration.
3. I will NOT be using Lexis or Westlaw searches to help you. These services are very expensive, and I can't use them just to give out free advice. I will, if you so request, point you in the right direction so that you can go to a local law library and start searching on your own.
4. This thread is not for debating. If it turns into a debate over who's right and who's wrong, I will simply stop participating.
5. Free legal advice is sometimes not worth what you pay for it.
Guidelines:
1. In the law, we use a lot of jargon. We calls these "terms of art." When I use a term of art in my posts, I will try to put it in quotation marks so that you can look it up for more information if you so desire. Understand, however, that I often use quotation marks normally, so not everything in quotations is a term of art.
2. If you have multiple questions, ask them in multiple paragraphs so I can separate them when answering. I'm not exactly the most skilled at using this editor.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (01/29/14 10:35 AM)
|
All We Perceive
Sea Cucumber



Registered: 09/24/07
Posts: 10,491
Last seen: 10 months, 22 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15912254 - 03/07/12 01:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
If there is weed and bowl sitting in the open in a hotel room on the table and there are 3 people in the room, if no one says anything, is there any way for them to successfully try all 3 as a package?
Let us suppose you secretly record a conversation with a cop and he testifies differently than what actually happens. Your state requires both parties to be on notice that they are being recorded. You then try and introduce this tape as impeachment evidence. Result?
--------------------
"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak
Edited by All We Perceive (03/07/12 01:07 AM)
|
t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
|
|
You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
--------------------
|
Pandora5a
Stranger
Registered: 02/08/12
Posts: 124
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: t00th]
#15912588 - 03/07/12 04:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
What are some of the biggest legal misconceptions you have come across?
How much of Canada/US drug law is similar?
You are caught pulled off for the suspicion of driving while intoxicated. What is the most effective course of action?
Any interesting "loophole" type stories?
What is the best way to find truly "effective" representation without a lot of funds?
Only thing I have been able to gather from a series of uniformed legal guidance is this:
Name, Address, STFU
Thanks!!
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
All We Perceive said: If there is weed and bowl sitting in the open in a hotel room on the table and there are 3 people in the room, if no one says anything, is there any way for them to successfully try all 3 as a package?
First, there is no "package" doctrine where people are tried as a package. Each defendant is entitled to his own lawyer, his own arguments, and his own verdict. You probably already knew this, but it is an important distinction to keep in mind.
Of course, sometimes co-defendants are tried in the same trial. In fact, it is more common than not that they are. This is an efficiency thing. In cases where trying the defendants in one trial would unfairly prejudice one or more defendants, the trials can be separated. This is also true when one person is charged with multiple different crimes. There are times when the different crimes are tried in different trials as well if need be. This is called "bifurcation."
This answered your question, but I think what you are really asking is whether all three of them are likely to be charged and tried with possession. The answer, like many answers in the law, is maybe.
Possession requires that the defendant exercise "dominion and control" over the substance. If someone has crank in his pocket, he obviously has dominion and control over it. It is also true, however, that if someone has stashed some weed in the bushes so that he can grab it when a customer comes, he still has dominion and control over it. Under the dominion and control theory, it is hard for more than one person to have possession.
There is a concept called "constructive possession" which basically says that multiple people can share possession of the substance. Your example falls into this category. Similarly, if a car is pulled over and weed is found in the car, everyone in the car has constructive possession of that weed.
There ARE defenses to a constructive possession case, however. The most effective one is knowledge. If a person in the hotel room doesn't know it's there or doesn't know it's weed, then they can beat the case. Lack of knowledge doesn't defeat the constructive possession aspect, but it does negate the "mens rea" required to convict someone.
So...long story short...it is not only possible to convict multiple people for possession...it is routine to do so. It is also routine to pick the one with the shortest rap sheet and get them to testify against the others.
Quote:
Let us suppose you secretly record a conversation with a cop and he testifies differently than what actually happens. Your state requires both parties to be on notice that they are being recorded. You then try and introduce this tape as impeachment evidence. Result?
If he lies, the tape comes in. You'll have to lay a foundation, but the tape will undoubtedly come in if he lies. This is, of course, for a criminal case. A defendant in a criminal case has a lot more constitutional protection than a litigant in a civil case. As a result, he can use the tape.
Having said that, you specifically used the word "impeachment." Even in a civil case, the tape could be used for impeachment. It just couldn't be used to prove your case. The distinction between the two may not be apparent to you immediately, but it makes a difference.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: t00th]
#15912709 - 03/07/12 05:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
t00th said: You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
Specifics are nice...What is a "research chemical" as you use the phrase? Similarly, what are "caps"? In addition, what are the charges you're trying to beat?
I don't want to sound like a noob here, but I work in the trenches...people don't generally call things by these terms on the street.
I am going to assume that you are talking about a legal substance that can be used to make an illegal substance. I will further assume that "caps" refers to a finished product that would is illegal.
First, there is no possession charge for legal substances...even if you did have scales, etc. States do have crimes that amount to possession of paraphenalia, but those aren't strictly possession. They require proving an intent to use the items for an illegal purpose.
Usually, these types of things are all based on context. If you're caught driving a rental truck with 400 lbs of pseudoephedrine hidden inside second hand furniture...you're going to have an uphill battle fighting that one. If you're caught with 10 boxes of sudafed, the state's going to have the uphill battle.
I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I just am not certain what exactly you are asking.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Pandora5a]
#15912761 - 03/07/12 06:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Pandora5a said: What are some of the biggest legal misconceptions you have come across?
People generally misunderstand Miranda and how it applies to them. A vast majority of clients think that they must be read the rights when they are arrested.
In addition, people have a very limited grasp of the 4th and how it protects them against searches and seizures. Some think a warrant is always needed. Others think that probable cause is enough to search. This is a tricky and convoluted part of constitutional law, so it is natural for people not to know all of the details.
I would have to say, however, that the biggest misconception I come across is actually not one my clients have. It is a public misconception. There is a significant majority of people who simply see crime as black and white. They ask me "how can you defend those people?" Truthfully, it isn't about guilty or not guilty. It's almost always about shades of culpability. Usually, a client is guilty of something but almost never everything for which they're charged. Most of the time, they have a substance problem or a psychological problem...or both. They aren't "bad" people. I have only had one client where I sat across from him and thought "this dude is evil." That is the exception.
Quote:
How much of Canada/US drug law is similar?
I am not qualified to answer that. When it comes to criminal law in general, the US Constitution plays a huge role in how it plays out. Canada obviously has its own framework. I am not really familiar with it.
Quote:
You are caught pulled off for the suspicion of driving while intoxicated. What is the most effective course of action?
Depends on your state and your sobriety. If you are stone sober (haven't had anything to drink), comply with the officer and be on your way asap. If you've had anything to drink, that's where it gets a little trickier.
If you're in an "implied consent" state, then you have to submit to a test (usually breathalyzer) either at the stop or at the station or you lose your license for a period of time. This is completely separate from any DUI charge you may face. That puts you in a tough place. If you think you'll pass, you might be tempted to submit to the test so that you can keep your license...but if you're wrong and over the limit...you're fucked.
On the other hand, if you don't submit, then they have to have probable cause and a warrant to force you to give blood for a test. This takes some time. Alcohol levels could go down during that time. Of course, they take this into account in determining what your level was when you were pulled over, but that is much easer to fight than an immediate test.
Also, alcohol levels can go UP over time in certain circumstances. For instance, if you had a shot of vodka right before getting in the car, you're not drunk yet...the alcohol isn't in the blood. If you're pulled over and tested immediately, you'll probably pass. If you wait 30 minutes, you'll definitely have more alcohol in your blood than you would have.
Time blurs all of it, and the state has the burden of proof. A good attorney can use the time between being pulled over and being tested to your advantage in many ways. This is on top of the option of challenging the warrant for lack of probable cause.
Long story short: If no drinking at all, submit. If you've been drinking, don't submit. If you're in an implied consent state...be ready to lose your license for a period of time.
Quote:
Any interesting "loophole" type stories?
This isn't really the place for war stories, but I have won many cases based on logical loopholes that I exploited.
Quote:
What is the best way to find truly "effective" representation without a lot of funds?
First, don't underestimate the public defender. They get a bad rap because they are portrayed as burnouts who don't care, but you'd be hard pressed to find attorneys with more trial experience than public defenders. Only prosecutors have as much experience.
Hiring an ex-prosecutor or public defender is a good choice too.
The difference between the two is that the one you hire will have less clients at the same time and can probably move your case a little faster because of that. The public defender will usually do the same things, but it takes a lot longer because you're one of 30-100 active cases he's working.
Hiring a lawyer who was never a prosecutor or public defender is fine if you're planning on taking a plea, but I wouldn't want one for a trial. The average civil/criminal private practice lawyer does less than one trial a year. The average PD or DA does 2-4. Some do many more than that.
In addition, if you are taking a plea, hiring a lawyer probably isn't necessary. He isn't going to get you any special deal, and you'll have to pay him for it. In fact, a PD probably has an advantage here because he cuts deals with the same prosecutors day in and day out. They have a working relationship far more than the private attorney does.
What you DO get with a private attorney is the hand-holding. You get the guy you can call at any time to discuss your case. You get him answering your questions and explaining the process in depth...of course..you pay for all of this.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
GuruBushHippie
MountainMan


Registered: 04/28/11
Posts: 3,434
Loc: USA
Last seen: 6 years, 7 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15912804 - 03/07/12 06:50 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Got arrested for DWI. The cop took my knife which I willingly handed over. The knife was not involved in the crime in any way. I never got it back. I called the property office and they said there was no record of the knife and that the arresting officer didn't know anything about it. Can I sue?
-------------------- Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
GuruBushHippie said: Got arrested for DWI. The cop took my knife which I willingly handed over. The knife was not involved in the crime in any way. I never got it back. I called the property office and they said there was no record of the knife and that the arresting officer didn't know anything about it. Can I sue?
Yes, but you will most likely lose.
Obviously, you have the right to have your property back...This is an issue of proof. If the police report doesn't mention the knife (check this) and the cop says he didn't take it, then you're going to have to prove that he did take it.
To do this, you can testify that he took it. He will testify that he didn't. In addition, you will be cross-examined about your sobriety at the time. This will cut into your credibility as well. In the end, the judge will have a man who admits to being under the influence at the time saying one thing, and a cop saying the other. That's not exactly the makings of a solid case.
Besides, the cost of the knife is probably not worth the filing fee and the hassle of court.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15913072 - 03/07/12 08:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
t00th said: You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
Specifics are nice...What is a "research chemical" as you use the phrase? Similarly, what are "caps"? In addition, what are the charges you're trying to beat?
A research chemical is a drug that has not been scheduled yet.
I am not a lawyer, but I can tell you what happened to me when they found a small bag of jwh-073 in my wallet. This was back when the substance was still legal, and involved local police in California.
The cop asked me what it was. It had been in there a long time and I didn't remember what it was. I told him the truth, that I didn't know. He tested it with narcopouch test kits, and when he used the opiate pouch, it turned yellow. These tests are notoriously unreliable and I knew this was wrong since I have never been into opiates, but the kit established probable cause so he ran me through the system. I was arrested for felony possession of a controlled substance and transported to county jail. It cost $1500 to bail out - Otherwise I would have been in there a couple weeks until I got in front of a judge. On the way out of jail they took my DNA. At my first court date the state asked for a continence to test the drugs. On my second date the state dropped the charge because the substance tested negative for controlled substances when tested with GC/MS. I never got the 1500 back, and now have a permanent felony arrest record.
I would expect the same thing to happen when busted with any substance which looks like drugs.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
t00th said: You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
Specifics are nice...What is a "research chemical" as you use the phrase? Similarly, what are "caps"? In addition, what are the charges you're trying to beat?
A research chemical is a drug that has not been scheduled yet.
I am not a lawyer, but I can tell you what happened to me when they found a small bag of jwh-073 in my wallet. This was back when the substance was still legal, and involved local police in California.
The cop asked me what it was. It had been in there a long time and I didn't remember what it was. I told him the truth, that I didn't know. He tested it with narcopouch test kits, and when he used the opiate pouch, it turned yellow. These tests are notoriously unreliable and I knew this was wrong since I have never been into opiates, but the kit established probable cause so he ran me through the system. I was arrested for felony possession of a controlled substance and transported to county jail. It cost $1500 to bail out - Otherwise I would have been in there a couple weeks until I got in front of a judge. On the way out of jail they took my DNA. At my first court date the state asked for a continence to test the drugs. On my second date the state dropped the charge because the substance tested negative for controlled substances when tested with GC/MS. I never got the 1500 back, and now have a permanent felony arrest record.
I would expect the same thing to happen when busted with any substance which looks like drugs.
I assume your bail was $15k and you used a bondsman? Otherwise you should have gotten your bail back.
And to the original asker of the question...That's pretty much how it would go. You wouldn't be convicted or likely even go to trial, but you might get arrested.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/07/12 08:59 AM)
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15913093 - 03/07/12 09:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: I assume your bail was $15k and you used a bondsman? Otherwise you should have gotten your bail back.
Correct. I would have bailed myself out but I don't know how to go about withdrawing $15k from the bank while incarcerated. Is that even possible, or is it necessary to borrow the cash from a friend?
|
t00th
something terrible

Registered: 12/03/07
Posts: 3,946
Loc: the dirty dirty
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15913135 - 03/07/12 09:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
t00th said: You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
Specifics are nice...What is a "research chemical" as you use the phrase? Similarly, what are "caps"? In addition, what are the charges you're trying to beat?
I don't want to sound like a noob here, but I work in the trenches...people don't generally call things by these terms on the street.
I am going to assume that you are talking about a legal substance that can be used to make an illegal substance. I will further assume that "caps" refers to a finished product that would is illegal.
First, there is no possession charge for legal substances...even if you did have scales, etc. States do have crimes that amount to possession of paraphenalia, but those aren't strictly possession. They require proving an intent to use the items for an illegal purpose.
Usually, these types of things are all based on context. If you're caught driving a rental truck with 400 lbs of pseudoephedrine hidden inside second hand furniture...you're going to have an uphill battle fighting that one. If you're caught with 10 boxes of sudafed, the state's going to have the uphill battle.
I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I just am not certa in what exactly you are asking.
sorry let me clarify
by a research chemical i meant an actual drug that may not be scheduled yet. lets say - MXE. and by a cap i meant the pill shell that is used to cap chemicals up for sale. caps = intent of human consumption.
the way i figure it - your riding down the road with 100g of mxe - properly labeled and with nothing on you to make it seem like its for human consumption - your still going to get arrested.
my question is are you going to get off of the charge (possesion, trafficking, whatever it may be) when you go to court.
--------------------
|
naum



Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 4,069
|
|
Here you must go through a bondsman no matter what.
Can you not get your felony arrest record, prints, and DNA record permanently expunged since the case was dropped? You would be able to do it here with the help of the lawyer. It's well worth the lawyer's fees.
-------------------- Let's upgrade our security practices and move toward client-side PGP for encrypted PMs. My Public PGP Key: hxxps://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24002249#24002249
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: naum]
#15913197 - 03/07/12 09:47 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
t00th said: the way i figure it - your riding down the road with 100g of mxe - properly labeled and with nothing on you to make it seem like its for human consumption - your still going to get arrested.
my question is are you going to get off of the charge (possesion, trafficking, whatever it may be) when you go to court.
If there is no evidence that you are going to use or represent it as a drug, you would get off. (in my opinion. I am interested in what an attorney would say) But just being arrested for felony drug charges is a harsh punishment in itself. They treat you like crap and lock you in tiny rooms with 20 other felons.
Quote:
naum said: Can you not get your felony arrest record, prints, and DNA record permanently expunged since the case was dropped? You would be able to do it here with the help of the lawyer. It's well worth the lawyer's fees.
That is a good question for an attorney. Enlil?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: naum]
#15913296 - 03/07/12 10:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
naum said: Here you must go through a bondsman no matter what.
Can you not get your felony arrest record, prints, and DNA record permanently expunged since the case was dropped? You would be able to do it here with the help of the lawyer. It's well worth the lawyer's fees.
That isn't true...you can always place a cash bond.
And there is no expungement of an arrest...only convictions can be expunged.
Keep in mind, however, that an arrest isn't used against you as a "prior" for later cases, and it doesn't show up on most background checks. Usually, an arrest record simply goes in the police computer and sits there.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/07/12 10:53 AM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: t00th]
#15913357 - 03/07/12 10:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
t00th said:
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
t00th said: You get caught with a properly labeled research chemical - with no scale or caps or anything - what is your chance of beating that in court
Specifics are nice...What is a "research chemical" as you use the phrase? Similarly, what are "caps"? In addition, what are the charges you're trying to beat?
I don't want to sound like a noob here, but I work in the trenches...people don't generally call things by these terms on the street.
I am going to assume that you are talking about a legal substance that can be used to make an illegal substance. I will further assume that "caps" refers to a finished product that would is illegal.
First, there is no possession charge for legal substances...even if you did have scales, etc. States do have crimes that amount to possession of paraphenalia, but those aren't strictly possession. They require proving an intent to use the items for an illegal purpose.
Usually, these types of things are all based on context. If you're caught driving a rental truck with 400 lbs of pseudoephedrine hidden inside second hand furniture...you're going to have an uphill battle fighting that one. If you're caught with 10 boxes of sudafed, the state's going to have the uphill battle.
I'm sorry I can't be more specific. I just am not certa in what exactly you are asking.
sorry let me clarify
by a research chemical i meant an actual drug that may not be scheduled yet. lets say - MXE. and by a cap i meant the pill shell that is used to cap chemicals up for sale. caps = intent of human consumption.
the way i figure it - your riding down the road with 100g of mxe - properly labeled and with nothing on you to make it seem like its for human consumption - your still going to get arrested.
my question is are you going to get off of the charge (possesion, trafficking, whatever it may be) when you go to court.
So, I'm guessing that MXE would be considered an analog of a scheduled drug...hence the "for human consumption" issue.
If it IS an analog of a schedule I or II drug, then yes, you can be prosecuted...but...they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was to be used for human consumption...Having it in capsules would be pretty damning, having capsules in the same bag with it would be bad too...having capsules in the car and the mxe in the car...not necessarily a big issue...
BUT..You will have to go to trial in that case.
If you have no capsules or anything else pointing to human consumption, the mxe alone might get you arrested...but it wouldn't get you convicted...or even to trial, frankly. That case would go nowhere.
Alan's situation had the added complexity of it testing as a controlled substance..that was what got him into the shit he was in. He still never had any chance of a conviction.
You do have to understand that it doesn't take a lot for a police officer to arrest someone. Truthfully, in most states, a cop can arrest you for speeding. It rarely happens, but it can.
I have to apologize for my ignorance about MXE. I am not up on the latest and greatest drug stuff. My experience is limited with drugs, although I represent a lot of clients that use them regularly. Mostly, that is crack, heroin, meth, and pot.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
Enlil said: I assume your bail was $15k and you used a bondsman? Otherwise you should have gotten your bail back.
Correct. I would have bailed myself out but I don't know how to go about withdrawing $15k from the bank while incarcerated. Is that even possible, or is it necessary to borrow the cash from a friend?
If you had the 15k in the bank, a judge would have let you out on the promise to post that same day. I've seen it happen a bunch of times. Unfortunately, it does require going before the judge...so it might take a few days. If you had a lawyer, he could have withdrawn it from your bank as well...with your consent, of course. I've had clients call friends to break into their house and get their checkbook so I could take it to them in jail and have them write the check for bail...to me of course...then I bail them out.
Start Rant: This is one of the most fucking frustrating things about working in the criminal system. People get arrested and sometimes spend a month or two in jail before ever being charged. A month in jail is enough to make a lot of people lose everything that they have...their home, their job...most of their shit...and all of this before they get charged.
I had a client who spent 4 month in jail before they finally let him go without charges...what the fuck is he going to go home to? It was great to tell him, "they're letting you out today." but...I know he's going to go to mom's house and try to rebuild his life from nothing.
End Rant.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
naum



Registered: 10/09/07
Posts: 4,069
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15913410 - 03/07/12 10:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I apologize for my ignorance on the bond issue. Yes a cash bond in full is allowed here. For non-cash bonds it's very complicated and varies from county to county.
Not to violate your 4th rule, but my state does allow "total" expunction of an arrest. Relevant code: hxxp://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CR/htm/CR.55.htm . I don't know if we are the odd ball or if there is something similar in California which I think was the question.
-------------------- Let's upgrade our security practices and move toward client-side PGP for encrypted PMs. My Public PGP Key: hxxps://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24002249#24002249
|
Mr.PhilCybin
Master Baiter


Registered: 06/13/11
Posts: 11,642
Loc: Gnarnia
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: naum] 4
#15913461 - 03/07/12 11:05 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
I don't have any questions right now, but I wanted to thank you for doing this.
-------------------- I'm stupid, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is smart. I'm ugly, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is beautiful. I'm a loser, Falcon91Wolvrn03 is a winner. Someday, I hope to be like Falcon91Wolvrn03 but secretly know I never will.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: naum] 1
#15913509 - 03/07/12 11:17 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
naum said: I apologize for my ignorance on the bond issue. Yes a cash bond in full is allowed here. For non-cash bonds it's very complicated and varies from county to county.
Not to violate your 4th rule, but my state does allow "total" expunction of an arrest. Relevant code: hxxp://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/CR/htm/CR.55.htm . I don't know if we are the odd ball or if there is something similar in California which I think was the question.
I stand corrected. I've never heard of that, to be honest. A typical expungement proceeding results in a withdrawal of the guilty plea or setting aside of a guilty verdict, followed by a dismissal of charges...The arrest record isn't usually even dealt with. That is certainly true in the states in which I practice. Of course, as I stated in the original post, states vary.
Having said that, TX might have public arrest records...something that most states do not have. Most states have public criminal records, but they don't include arrests.
One thing Alan can do...and probably should do...Is submit a request for record from the CA DOJ...I'd be willing to bet that his arrest and charges won't show up...I'm also pretty sure that CA doesn't have a process for expungement without conviction.
I was actually arrested in california on three separate occasions...and when the state bars ran my background check (which is very thorough) they never found any of them.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/07/12 11:27 AM)
|
Tri High
Whigro


Registered: 05/02/08
Posts: 11,769
Loc: Monaghan, Ireland
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15913619 - 03/07/12 11:52 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Having gotten a DWI with a SIS, when I'm filling out job applications and they ask "have you ever plead guilty to an offense on the law," should I mark yes or no?
Because I'm not convicted of it after I am off probation but I think that in order to get SIS you have to plead guilty.
So do I mark yes on the job application for a question of having plead guilty to breaking a law?
And thank you.
-------------------- you just need money to get laid - starfire_xes
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Tri High] 1
#15913755 - 03/07/12 12:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Tri High said: Having gotten a DWI with a SIS, when I'm filling out job applications and they ask "have you ever plead guilty to an offense on the law," should I mark yes or no?
Because I'm not convicted of it after I am off probation but I think that in order to get SIS you have to plead guilty.
So do I mark yes on the job application for a question of having plead guilty to breaking a law?
And thank you.
I am assuming that SIS a type of diversion program in your state. There are several different ways that this type of thing works. Some states require you to plead guilty. Some do not. In any case, after you finish probation, the charge is dismissed. In order to dismiss the charge, the guilty plea must be vacated...so...after your probation is off, you can answer no legally whether or not you plead before probation started.
Having said all of that, here is another thing you should know. Lying isn't illegal unless you have a duty to tell the truth...on a job application, you don't have a duty to tell the truth.
Here is where it gets tricky though...If you say you didn't plead guilty, and they find that you did..even if it was vacated, they might not see that as a truthful answer. If you never plead guilty, but you go through the probation and have it dismissed, so you answer no, they may not see that as altogether honest either...assuming they find out.
When it comes to job applications, remember that you can be fired for any false statement on the app, but you can be fired for no reason at all, so that isn't all that big of a deal. More importantly, if it's the type of job that is likely to do a background check, I would just say yes and explain that you did a diversion program. Your DWI was a misdemeanor, I'm sure...and it will be dismissed...so...It isn't all that big of a deal.
Some employers see a diversion dismissal as an admission of guilt regardless of whether it's on your record...others do not. There's no way you're going to know which it is, but I would disclose it just to cover your ass. Most likely it won't be taken all that seriously anyway.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15914345 - 03/07/12 02:52 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
In my state they do allow expungement of arrests whether resulting in a conviction or not. It depends on the circumstances but they only allow 1 per lifetime so if you are falsely arrested twice you are screwed. Actually, its not full expungement its simply sealing the court records but it can't be accessed except under certain circumstances.
Enlil, many thanks for providing this service. May your karma be great and reward you many times over.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
HermitCrabsOnE
Ass Pincher



Registered: 09/06/11
Posts: 310
Loc: in a cold city somewhere
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#15919583 - 03/08/12 01:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Okay, here is an example I would like clarification of. This is all theoretical of course, purely for curiosity.
Say your friend has 19.5 grams of cannabis in his room. It is in a locked box, inside of a locked cabinet. In the state you live, less than 20 grams of cannabis is a misdemeanor with a $1,000 fine. They do NOT consent to a search of his property. (what legal edge would this give him in evidence against possession of less than 20 grams of cannabis?)
Now say this friend is a dealer. They makes sales that are small time. They sell to an undercover cop, who reports them to the higher ups, and the cop filmed the transaction.
Now, I'd like the answers to two different scenarios.
In one scenario, the police search the property, but aren't given consent to the locked door. They leave, there is no cannabis in the room when they return, they have nothing to go on. All they have is the video of selling.
In the second scenario, they found the 19.5 grams of cannabis, but not with the owners permission. The dealer claims they were for their personal use. Can the evidence be thrown out?
In court, what is the best defense against this? I had a friend who was in the same situation. She was the boyfriend of a dealer, and she made a sale to a guy down the road. The guy was a snitch for the cops, and they took him (and her eventually) in. They offered her a plea bargain of 3 months, and threatened her the other sentence if she fought the case. (much longer sentence). They claimed to have evidence against her, but NEVER SHOWED her the evidence. She has, to this day not seen the evidence they claim to have. She just took the plea bargain. I have a feeling this was the wrong move to do..she could have saved herself. Am I right on that?
Couldn't she just say, "SHOW ME THE TAPES!", and if they couldn't furnish them, be off scott free? What if they had the tapes and played them back in the court room, would her sentence be longer, or would it be the same as a guilty conviction?
peace
-------------------- Everytime a cow shits, say THANK YOU.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
|
My 2 cents worth: If they have a search warrant, permission is not needed. You did not specify the details and they will matter. If the police made a search, they most likely had a warrant or implied consent. I believe it will be admitted, but it depends.
Once your friend made the deal, whether they were bluffing on the tapes or not makes no difference. I would have said talk to my lawyer and he would sort that out. They do earn their money in situations like that as well as going to court.
Always give all details so enlil can answer intelligently. I'm not trying to speak for him but that is common sense.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
HermitCrabsOnE said: Okay, here is an example I would like clarification of. This is all theoretical of course, purely for curiosity.
Say your friend has 19.5 grams of cannabis in his room. It is in a locked box, inside of a locked cabinet. In the state you live, less than 20 grams of cannabis is a misdemeanor with a $1,000 fine. They do NOT consent to a search of his property. (what legal edge would this give him in evidence against possession of less than 20 grams of cannabis?)
Being in a locked box helps to avoid a "plain view" issue. If the cops are there searching for pot, and the warrant says that...the locked box does nothing for him. If they are there for another reason...or have a warrant to search for something that would not fit in that box, then opening the box would be an illegal search and the evidence would likely be suppressed.
Quote:
Now say this friend is a dealer. They makes sales that are small time. They sell to an undercover cop, who reports them to the higher ups, and the cop filmed the transaction.
Now, I'd like the answers to two different scenarios.
In one scenario, the police search the property, but aren't given consent to the locked door. They leave, there is no cannabis in the room when they return, they have nothing to go on. All they have is the video of selling.
In the second scenario, they found the 19.5 grams of cannabis, but not with the owners permission. The dealer claims they were for their personal use. Can the evidence be thrown out?
In court, what is the best defense against this? I had a friend who was in the same situation. She was the boyfriend of a dealer, and she made a sale to a guy down the road. The guy was a snitch for the cops, and they took him (and her eventually) in. They offered her a plea bargain of 3 months, and threatened her the other sentence if she fought the case. (much longer sentence). They claimed to have evidence against her, but NEVER SHOWED her the evidence. She has, to this day not seen the evidence they claim to have. She just took the plea bargain. I have a feeling this was the wrong move to do..she could have saved herself. Am I right on that?
Couldn't she just say, "SHOW ME THE TAPES!", and if they couldn't furnish them, be off scott free? What if they had the tapes and played them back in the court room, would her sentence be longer, or would it be the same as a guilty conviction?
peace
First, if they have a video of the transaction, it doesn't really matter if they found pot or not...The undercover cop will testify to the transaction...the video will support that testimony...and the actual drugs from the transaction will be analyzed and the results will come into evidence...That's an open and shut conviction. If I'm facing that, I'm gonna tell the client to take a deal.
Now, your second part gets a little muddled. First, they don't have to show you shit until just before trial. They DO have to turn over discovery material, but not at the plea bargain stage. Often they will to encourage you to take a plea, however.
As far as anything seized in a nonconsent search...that's going to depend on whether the search was reasonable under the 4th amendment (and whatever constitutional or statutory framework the state has). There aren't enough facts to determine that in your post. Generally, however, if the cops want to search someone's home...they need a warrant.
You use the word "dealer" and the word "owner". This is important because only people in legal possession of a property have protection from illegal searches. If the dealer lives at the house, he has protection. If, however, it is someone else's home and he is just a visitor...he does not have "standing" to challenge that search under the 4th amendment.
Keep in mind, however, that even if the drugs seized were suppressed, an officer's testimony is still enough to convict...assuming they have the drugs from the transaction.
Having said all of the above, your story about what actually happened is significantly different from your hypotheticals. You say that your friend sold drugs to a dude who eventually snitched..that is a whole different deal from selling to an undercover cop. In that instance, there is a lot more opportunity to deny the transaction. The snitch has every reason to lie because he is the one who is caught with the drugs. In addition, a videotape is unlikely to be of much use in terms of proving that it was drugs that changed hands...there are some reasonable doubt opportunities here.
I can't tell you whether she made a good deal or not, and I certainly can't speculate as to whether the cops were full of shit...but I would generally recommend that she have a lawyer in that instance...he will want to see something before he has her do anything...at least a police report. Cops can lie to get you to make a confession...but i doubt a cop would lie about a videotape on a police report...that would be professional suicide.
As far as whether a guilty verdict would be worse for her than a guilty plea...almost certainly it would result in more time.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/08/12 01:53 PM)
|
Anonymous #1
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15922128 - 03/08/12 09:23 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Scenario: There are multiple people living in a house and a search warrant/knock-and-talk goes down. There is a grow op in one bedroom and a (legal) gun in another bedroom. What's likely to happen? Will everyone living there be charged? If only the grower is charged, will he or she having amplified charges for the gun being present?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: Scenario: There are multiple people living in a house and a search warrant/knock-and-talk goes down. There is a grow op in one bedroom and a (legal) gun in another bedroom. What's likely to happen? Will everyone living there be charged? If only the grower is charged, will he or she having amplified charges for the gun being present?
There aren't a lot of details here, but I can give you a general landscape of the law in this area.
I can't tell you who WOULD be charged because that will be up to the discretion of the cops and the DA, but everyone in the house CAN be charged. This is one of those situations where the details matter a lot. If this "grow op" is an entire bedroom of the house (with no bed) then probably everyone in the house is going down. If it's a small thing in the corner of one bedroom or in a closet...maybe not.
The difference here is whether the setup looks like it is a "joint venture" (no pun intended). If it is obvious that the house has been set up to grow, obviously everyone living there knows about it. If it looks like one roommate's personal hobby, then there is a good possibility that the rest of the people living there are not involved.
The same is true of the gun. If the setup looks like multiple roommates with their own rooms, then it isn't likely that the gun could be used for any kind of sentencing enhancement. Again, this is a situation where the details matter a lot.
As far as the law goes, anyone who actively and knowingly participated in the grow op is guilty of manufacturing. This would include even running out to pick up some fertilizer (assuming that you knew it was for growing illegal substances). The important thing to remember, however, is that the state still has the burden of proving this active and knowing participation. This is why the details matter so much.
The layout of the house and what stuff is where will largely be used to determine who was and who wasn't involved in the grow. Knowledge of the grow would be a prerequisite to guilt, so if the grow is obvious to anyone in the house, that is covered. If the grow is pretty well hidden, the argument can be made that the other people didn't even know it was there. As far as active participation, it's going to depend on the facts.
One note about the gun: If, instead of one gun in the house, there were 25 guns of varying types (legal or not), that would be clear evidence of a larger operation in which more people were involved. This would support a case against the entire house. One gun probably doesn't help or hurt the case.
Having said all of the above...what generally happens in these cases is that everyone is arrested, and the cops question people. Based on that questioning and the criminal records of those involved, the cops make an educated guess as to who's operation it was and who else was probably involved. They try to get a confession from the ones they think guilty, using the threat of charging the "innocent" one. If this tactic doesn't work, the DA will usually try to cut a sweetheart deal with the least culpable people on the condition of cooperation.
I can't even begin to tell you how many girlfriends and wives I have seen in this position. It happens all the time.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
RealRollForever
Whiny Cannabis Addict



Registered: 11/15/09
Posts: 630
Loc: Under the radar
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15923564 - 03/09/12 09:01 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Great thread, I appreciate the legal advice. I have 2 questions for you
1- Say I'm driving down the street after smoking and I am pretty stoned and the car smells. (not drinking) I am not in possession of any weed but the cop suspects DUI/DWI. Am I able to consent to a breathalyzer but refuse the roadside sobriety test thus avoiding an arrest? (State is PA)
2- A bit different, I'm driving completely sober and have a misdemeanor amount of cannabis in an airtight jar hidden in the trunk. The car has no noticeable weed scent whatsoever as the car had been aired out for a few days prior and a cologne scent was sprayed to cover any remaining traces. I am pulled over for a traffic violation of some sort and the cop profiles me/items in car and attempts to search the vehicle, but I do not consent. He then threatens to call the K-9 Unit in, what is the best thing to say so as not to imply guilt or suspicion in that instance? Would the search be ruled unreasonable later on in court based on the circumstances previously described?
--------------------
Edited by RealRollForever (03/09/12 09:02 AM)
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
|
>Scenario: There are multiple people living in a house and a search warrant/knock-and-talk goes down.
A search warrant is totally different than a knock and talk. In the latter they are trying to get you to let them in when they have no legal right to go in. Likewise in the scenario where they suspect pot and try to bully you into allowing a search, just say no. At least 9 times out of 10 in my experience and that of others i've known, they bluster and bully and then give up when you calmly and firmly say no. If they had probable cause they would not be working so hard on your consent so do not give it. This has all been said before but it can't be emphasized enough.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
RealRollForever said: Great thread, I appreciate the legal advice. I have 2 questions for you
1- Say I'm driving down the street after smoking and I am pretty stoned and the car smells. (not drinking) I am not in possession of any weed but the cop suspects DUI/DWI. Am I able to consent to a breathalyzer but refuse the roadside sobriety test thus avoiding an arrest? (State is PA)
This is very state law dependant, and I don't know PA dui laws....so I don't know if refusal to consent to the field sobriety test is grounds for license suspension...I guarantee you that it is not, of itself, probable cause to arrest you. Having said that, this is all going to depend on whether the guy thinks you're stoned...If he does, he's gonna have to arrest you to get you to take a blood test. The circumstances of the stop including your demeanor will be what gives him probable cause..so...not taking the sobriety test limits his opportunity to observe enough to give him probable cause.
Of course, your mileage may vary...cops often do what they want and worry about justifying it later.
Quote:
2- A bit different, I'm driving completely sober and have a misdemeanor amount of cannabis in an airtight jar hidden in the trunk. The car has no noticeable weed scent whatsoever as the car had been aired out for a few days prior and a cologne scent was sprayed to cover any remaining traces. I am pulled over for a traffic violation of some sort and the cop profiles me/items in car and attempts to search the vehicle, but I do not consent. He then threatens to call the K-9 Unit in, what is the best thing to say so as not to imply guilt or suspicion in that instance? Would the search be ruled unreasonable later on in court based on the circumstances previously described?
Avoiding the K9 unit would is the wise choice. An airtight jar may not be (and very often isn't) effective against the K-9...so your best bet is to avoid getting the K9 there...
Understand, that calling the other unit takes time...they don't like to spend a lot of time with it if they think it's going to be fruitless. A guy who is scared will often just clam up and hope the cop lets him go...by pushing the cop a little bit, it tells him that you're not scared but you are annoyed. You're basically telling him to hurry up and call the k9 already so you can leave...someone with something to hide rarely does that.
This isn't a magic bullet, of course, and it will depend on how the rest of your demeanor is...but it does help. Understand, of course, that you don't want to totally piss off the cop...if you do that, he will call the k9 just to delay your stop...
As far as the legality of it all, while you're stopped, a cop can call a K9 without any probable cause as long as he is not doing it for the purpose of unreasonably detaining you longer. If the K9 alerts, that's probable cause. There's no way around it unless you can show in court that the dog is prone to false alerts, etc...nothing you can control at the scene.
If he doesn't call the K9 and searches anyway...he had better have probable cause and a good story...He can search the interior of the car, but the trunk is off limits unless you have the type of car that one can fold the seat down and get into the trunk.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (10/17/12 10:42 AM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#15924201 - 03/09/12 11:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: >Scenario: There are multiple people living in a house and a search warrant/knock-and-talk goes down.
A search warrant is totally different than a knock and talk. In the latter they are trying to get you to let them in when they have no legal right to go in. Likewise in the scenario where they suspect pot and try to bully you into allowing a search, just say no. At least 9 times out of 10 in my experience and that of others i've known, they bluster and bully and then give up when you calmly and firmly say no. If they had probable cause they would not be working so hard on your consent so do not give it. This has all been said before but it can't be emphasized enough.
That's true, but his hypothetical assumed that they searched...so I figured he was talking about a warrant search...
There are times, however, that a cop has probable cause but has not yet obtained a warrant...He can't just search your house because he has probable cause...he needs to get a judge to sign a warrant, and often he knows that you know he's there...so he's worried that you'll clean house.
There are certain circumstances where he can search with probable cause alone, but when you're talking about a house...Those are rare circumstances.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15925141 - 03/09/12 03:21 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
>There are certain circumstances where he can search with probable cause alone, but when you're talking about a house...Those are rare circumstances.
That would be in hot pursuit of certain types of criminals, i believe, or witnessing a crime that must be stopped right away such as seeing an assault through the window. I think most anything else would require him to come back with a warrant.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Anonymous #2
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15925234 - 03/09/12 03:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Great thread! Thanks for all your time and advice. I've got a fairly simple question.
Let's say you have a prescription schedule 2 substance in your possession that you're legally prescribed to. You also have the bottle for this substance in your possession. But, the schedule 2 substance isn't inside the bottle. If you get searched and the substance is found outside the bottle, but you have the bottle and a legitimate prescription, will you be facing arrest or prosecution? Thanks!
By the way, a research chemical or RC is a drug which is not yet illegal and not necessarily an analog of a scheduled substance.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
|
>Let's say you have a prescription schedule 2 substance in your possession that you're legally prescribed to. You also have the bottle for this substance in your possession. But, the schedule 2 substance isn't inside the bottle. If you get searched and the substance is found outside the bottle, but you have the bottle and a legitimate prescription, will you be facing arrest or prosecution?
Anon #2, in my area you can be charged for that even if you have a prescription. In practice they often let it drop but they can pursue it if they wish.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#15926151 - 03/09/12 07:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: Great thread! Thanks for all your time and advice. I've got a fairly simple question.
Let's say you have a prescription schedule 2 substance in your possession that you're legally prescribed to. You also have the bottle for this substance in your possession. But, the schedule 2 substance isn't inside the bottle. If you get searched and the substance is found outside the bottle, but you have the bottle and a legitimate prescription, will you be facing arrest or prosecution? Thanks!
By the way, a research chemical or RC is a drug which is not yet illegal and not necessarily an analog of a scheduled substance.
Whether you will be facing arrest will depend upon the circumstances of the whole thing...that's up to the cop...He may or may not believe that the drugs found are what was supposed to be in the bottle....you won't be prosecuted for that, however. Schedule 2 drugs are legal with a prescription.
This is all, of course, assuming that the prescription is still valid and that the facts support that you're using the drugs as prescribed...If there's some indication that you've packaged the drugs for sale or given them to someone else..that's a whole other thing.
Keep in mind that schedule 2 drugs are much more tightly controlled than a typical prescription. Generally, you're supposed to discard these medications within a certain time period, etc. Failure to do so can make your legitimate prescription no longer a defense.
Edit: I'm sorry. In my haste to get you an answer quickly, I guess I didn't really give you a complete answer. It is true, as pointed out below, that you CAN be prosecuted for possession outside of the container. It is, however, highly unlikely that you would be. In fact, it is fairly unlikely that you'd even be arrested for it. This is why it is pretty much up to the cop and whether or not he believes you.
The other facts, such as whether or not the prescription is still valid for treating an ailment that you still have, or whether the facts support a theory that you're selling your prescription meds...that stuff will matter much more to the prosecutor in deciding whether or not to prosecute you. DAs generally aren't looking to jail people for using a pill box.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (03/10/12 05:46 AM)
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15928353 - 03/10/12 04:55 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: He may or may not believe that the drugs found are what was supposed to be in the bottle....you won't be prosecuted for that, however.
I believe that to be state dependent. In the state I live in the requirement is that prescription meds remain in the prescription bottle, with the label intact. That may have changed as I haven't looked into for some time.
It is/was even illegal to use pill organizers... unless the pills were placed into the organizer by a licensed nurse. Even the the original bottles must remain in the possession of the person.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Enlil said: He may or may not believe that the drugs found are what was supposed to be in the bottle....you won't be prosecuted for that, however.
I believe that to be state dependent. In the state I live in the requirement is that prescription meds remain in the prescription bottle, with the label intact. That may have changed as I haven't looked into for some time.
It is/was even illegal to use pill organizers... unless the pills were placed into the organizer by a licensed nurse. Even the the original bottles must remain in the possession of the person.
That's true of the federal possession laws as well, at least with Schedule 1 and 2 drugs, but I've never heard of a prosecution for it. I'm sure it has happened, but that had to be a prosecutor with a chip on his shoulder and/or a personal vendetta.
This is probably a good place to clarify how the prosecution game is played. Laws like this are tools to be used by the prosecutor to achieve his goals when he couldn't otherwise.
A DA has two overriding duties that he has to perform. First, he must represent and advocate for the people of the state. Second, he must do that which serves justice. These duties often conflict. As an advocate, he must seek to protect the public from criminals, which often means seeking the maximum sentence. As a servant of justice, often he must be mindful of the circumstances and look to not overcharge a defendant. These conflicting duties are why I could never be a DA.
Most DAs are actually quite reasonable people with a very strong desire to be fair. Of course, they do have to be careful because they are somewhat evaluated by their conviction rate. As such, when a case comes across a DA's desk, he has to determine what he considers a fair outcome from the facts he currently has. He charges based on that. Usually, he will also charge lesser crimes as a fallback position in plea bargaining or a trial that does not go his way. Sometimes he will charge higher crimes that the facts may support once more is brought to light...all depends on the circumstances.
In the end, however, the DA is always in discussions with the defense attorney. Things change as he talks to the police, witnesses, etc. The DA's position changes all the time. Many, many times, a case that looked bad on paper is revealed to be something entirely different and a case will be dropped. Other times it will be much worse and the DA is suddenly adding charges.
In many cases, it is clear that the defendant was up to some serious shenanigans, but there isn't enough evidence to convict...in these cases, a DA might use a technicality like the fact that a pill is not in the original container to get a conviction where he wouldn't have otherwise been able to. Again, this is part of the DA's duties of advocacy and justice.
As a defense attorney, if I have a client that was arrested for a substance for which he has a valid prescription, I'm going to talk that side up to the DA. I'm going to paint my client as a kid who didn't know this small point of law and shouldn't be punished for it. If the DA buys that, or thinks that a jury will buy that, there won't be a prosecution. If the DA comes back to me with, "Explain why the pills were in a baggie in a cigar box with cash" then we're going to have a problem. It isn't that the DA is really trying to send someone to jail for improperly storing the pills. He wants to send the guy to jail for selling drugs...he just can't prove that part of the story.
In the end, remember this. Prosecutors decide which cases they are going to bring. This is why conviction rates are so high. If a case is not likely to win, the prosecutor won't pursue it. He gets to pick his battles. Defense attorneys have to play the cards they are dealt. This is why it is so important to have the attorney at the beginning. Often, one can avoid charges being filed altogether...or get them dismissed early.
Edited by Enlil (03/10/12 06:28 AM)
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#15928460 - 03/10/12 06:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Well, I hear what you are saying, but... a few years back I had the misfortune to be on a grand jury in the county where I reside. I can assure you that people were prosecuted for just that, although if I can't recall if each instance of that being prosecuted was a part of a larger parcel of offenses. I want to say there were at least a couple instances of it being the sole charge, but memories fade.
I agree with your summation of it most likely being prosecutors being prosecutors.
Funny thing is the local head prosecutor has somewhat of a rep for being a coke head. I have no first hand knowledge of it though.
One of the "cases" he handled during my grand jury time was a mentally slow individual who had 2 - 3 seedlings in Dixie cups. Half dead seedlings. He told us he was prosecuting this person to help them. I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time.
The grand jury was a very distasteful experience that I hope to never repeat.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Well, I hear what you are saying, but... a few years back I had the misfortune to be on a grand jury in the county where I reside. I can assure you that people were prosecuted for just that, although if I can't recall if each instance of that being prosecuted was a part of a larger parcel of offenses. I want to say there were at least a couple instances of it being the sole charge, but memories fade.
I agree with your summation of it most likely being prosecutors being prosecutors.
Funny thing is the local head prosecutor has somewhat of a rep for being a coke head. I have no first hand knowledge of it though.
One of the "cases" he handled during my grand jury time was a mentally slow individual who had 2 - 3 seedlings in Dixie cups. Half dead seedlings. He told us he was prosecuting this person to help them. I wanted to laugh and cry at the same time.
The grand jury was a very distasteful experience that I hope to never repeat.
I don't know what state you're in, but some states (and the federal system) require that a grand jury bring charges. Other states allow charges to be brought by a DA alone. In states where a DA has to indict (have the grand jury bring charges), he will often just give the GJ the facts that support the charges being brought. You won't always know much more than that. He has to go to the GJ for anything he does, so he tries to make it as quick and efficient as he can. As you know, the defense is not allowed to bring evidence. It's almost certain that you got less than half of the story.
This is why it is often said that "A DA can get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich."
Also, keep in mind that testimony in the grand jury can be a great source of impeachment material for the defense. It is quite common to cross-examine someone about inconsistencies between the two testimonies. Prosecutors try to minimize this by having as little testimony as possible in the GJ...not to mention, the more comprehensive the DA is with the GJ, the more of a preview of the case the defense has.
Edited by Enlil (03/10/12 07:50 AM)
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15928555 - 03/10/12 07:45 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah. It was pretty clear that not only were we getting half the story, the half we were getting often wasn't even a well told half.
The ham sandwich line is one I've used here before.
I've made a couple posts on my grand jury experience if you'd care to use the search to find them. It was a depressing experience.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Yeah. It was pretty clear that not only were we getting half the story, the half we were getting often wasn't even a well told half.
The ham sandwich line is one I've used here before.
I've made a couple posts on my grand jury experience if you'd care to use the search to find them. It was a depressing experience.
This is why many states don't bother with Grand Juries. The federal system doesn't have a choice because it's in the constitution. Most states that have GJs do so because the state constitution requires it. One state I work in has mandatory GJ indictment for felonies and no requirement for misdemeanors. Even there, clients often waive indictment if they are going to take a plea anyway...since it's much quicker to get the case over with instead of waiting for an inevitable indictment.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15929661 - 03/10/12 02:38 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Where i am we have both gj's and charges without a gj. The da can issue an "information" to directly charge the person. What usually happens is the da will information on most petty crimes and those he has a solid case. Those he has a weaker case but does not want to drop it outright since there may be pressure from victims and perhaps the public to go forward with, he will present to the gj. This is often the case with situations in which there are political ramifications. Or he may want to go forward but there could be pressure not to do so.
For example, there may be clear evidence to support the charge but it was a grandma at a demonstration who refused to leave private property and was charged perhaps with failure to obey a lawful order. By going through the gj he does not send the message that this will be overlooked in the future and keeps on the good side of cops who want this prosecuted. If the gj says no, he has done all he could.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#15936484 - 03/12/12 06:21 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Stonehenge said: Where i am we have both gj's and charges without a gj. The da can issue an "information" to directly charge the person. What usually happens is the da will information on most petty crimes and those he has a solid case. Those he has a weaker case but does not want to drop it outright since there may be pressure from victims and perhaps the public to go forward with, he will present to the gj. This is often the case with situations in which there are political ramifications. Or he may want to go forward but there could be pressure not to do so.
For example, there may be clear evidence to support the charge but it was a grandma at a demonstration who refused to leave private property and was charged perhaps with failure to obey a lawful order. By going through the gj he does not send the message that this will be overlooked in the future and keeps on the good side of cops who want this prosecuted. If the gj says no, he has done all he could.
I promise you that a prosecutor has no worries about "keeping on the good side of cops." In states where the GJ is optional, a prosecutor will often go to the GJ because he doesn't want to be the one who is blamed for the decision..that's true...but that's mostly about public opinion.
Another reason that a prosecutor goes to the GJ instead of filing an information is that a case brought by indictment is not as vulnerable to an appeal challenging probable cause to charge. An information is reviewed using a higher standard than an indictment.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center

Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#15937120 - 03/12/12 10:48 AM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
|
|
Enlil, you are the expert. I'm just giving my 2 cents in the form of examples where i've heard of similar cases locally.
>I promise you that a prosecutor has no worries about "keeping on the good side of cops." In states where the GJ is optional, a prosecutor will often go to the GJ because he doesn't want to be the one who is blamed for the decision..that's true...but that's mostly about public opinion.
Yeah, thats what i meant. Its the da who is most concerned about public opinion since its an elective position. From the scuttlebut i've heard, cops want to keep on the good side of prosecutors from a professional prospective so they can get convictions which look good for the cop. Prosecutors too want a high conviction rate though if they drop a case it does not hurt their conviction rate whereas the cop sees an arrest with no conviction. DA watches prosecutions vs convictions, cops watch arrests vs convictions. Cops do the leg work for the da's office although they have their own investigators too. Just saying they work together and locally at least, prosecutors seem to care about keeping the cops happy.
>Another reason that a prosecutor goes to the GJ instead of filing an information is that a case brought by indictment is not as vulnerable to an appeal challenging probable cause to charge. An information is reviewed using a higher standard than an indictment.
Yeah, and i've heard of malicious prosecution lawsuits being brought though its rare for them to succeed. Going the gj route avoids not only that but also accusations of political and other bias. If the da goes after a politician, it will almost always wind up in front of the gj.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16540890 - 07/16/12 06:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
That's true of the federal possession laws as well, at least with Schedule 1 and 2 drugs, but I've never heard of a prosecution for it. I'm sure it has happened, but that had to be a prosecutor with a chip on his shoulder and/or a personal vendetta.
Wow, could you or anyone else cite a law like this? Seems entirely unreasonable, as the defendant has the burden of proving his drug was legal per license/prescription anyways if its scheduled (aren't the statutes generally written so that the license/prescription is only an affirmative defense?).
This is absurd, you have to keep a ziplock bag they give you the drugs in on your person? I guess if I get a prescription I should ask for two vessels, one for storage and one to take with me, as I wouldn't take everything with me in case of theft or police being pricks.
Enlil, if you're interested and have the time, I'd be pleased to know of any mistakes or suggestions regarding the frequently asked questions at the top of this forum I wrote. I tried to mainly use actual decisions, but it can be hard to make sure everything stated is actually good law still (or maybe was even somewhat false at the time of the decision). I've read a number of cases where judges make broad proncouncements that are obviously unjustified. Seems they sometimes make pronouncements that are entirely unjustified (and shouldn't have any reason to think they were justified making given the case not raising the collateral issues at all).
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
#16541670 - 07/16/12 08:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Here is New York's statute...many states are similar:
"§ 3345. Possession of controlled substances by ultimate users original container. Except for the purpose of current use by the person or animal for whom such substance was prescribed or dispensed, it shall be unlawful for an ultimate user of controlled substances to possess such substance outside of the original container in which it was dispensed. Violation of this provision shall be an offense punishable by a fine of not more than fifty dollars."
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16542610 - 07/16/12 11:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I have a pending court case involving a sworn officer's statement that's filled with lies, two of which I can factually prove though there were many other lies within the story the officer told:
Lie #1 - Officer claims my father made a statement that my father can and will testify in court that he did not make. This statement is not relevant to my charges but the officer claims my father made negative comments regarding me in an effort to defame my character
Lie#2 - Officer claims in his report that I am a "repeat violent convicted offender with a history of committing similar acts such as this" and I have absolutely zero record in my history. Nothing has been expunged, no juvenile record, no nothing except moving violations.
The primary charge is resisting arrest and I have a jury trial. What is my chance of having the officer's credibility, testimony and sworn statements throttled with evidence of two flagrant inaccuracies, one of which are present in the State's own databases?
Further, in my state resisting arrest requires two features -
That an individual "flee from an officer, delay or obstruct an officer from conducting a detention or arrest" and that that action happen "intentionally".
One officer *requested* "Hey buddy, would you like to roll your window down for me a bit" to which I responded that I did mind; he went away and retrieved his superior officer (in the car with him), that second officer requested it in a demanding tone "I want you to lower that window!" and when I attempted to clarify if the second officer was requesting or demanding/ordering he interrupted me and then said (order) "Put that motherfucking window down right now!" at which point I began to do that, then he drew his service weapon on me pointed at my head and screamed at me "DON'T MOVE!!! If you move I'll shoot you in your fucking head/blow your fucking head off." Officer claims he saw a gun. There is no proof that I've ever owned a gun in my life, and I'll testify that I have never owned a gun in my life though I did have a costume prop inside of my car that was not defaced at all (orange tip still present) and it is fully legal in my state to have a fully loaded rifle in the car without any registration, license or CCW as long as it's not concealed.
This officer then repeatedly ordered me to roll my window down (move my hands in an area he couldn't see them), to which I told him that I didn't feel comfortable moving because he just told me he'd kill me if I moved.
Traffic stop ended with officer 3 reaching in through my driver's side window (it was down enough for me to pass documents to them, communicate with them and for them to stick their entire arm in through my window), unlocking my door and then opening my door from outside. The rest of the traffic stop was text-book as I stepped out of the car immediately when commanded and went with them completely voluntarily.
In your experience, you think I'll be able to get 1 juror out of 12 to call bullshit on this? I don't see 12 jurors finding me guilty of resisting arrest based on the facts of the case, let alone the two factual inaccuracies?
Should I be filing pre-trial motions to have the case/testimony thrown out or do those two lies/inaccuracies not matter until trial?
--------------------

Edited by Humility (07/16/12 11:29 PM)
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16542632 - 07/16/12 11:31 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Also, my state is a unanimous state. No split jury decisions permitted for conviction.
--------------------

|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16543405 - 07/17/12 04:49 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Neither of those inaccurate statements are really relevant to your charges. They certainly aren't admissible in court. The question here is whether they could be used to hurt the cop's credibility enough to cast doubt on his testimony in court...
Statement 1 doesn't hurt you in any way because it is simply the cop relaying a witness statement about completely unrelated bullshit. More importantly, however, is the weakness of your proof that this statement is false. One one hand, you have a cop saying that your father said something. On the other hand, you have your father claiming months later that he never said it. Your father has a clear reason to lie and has had time to forget...The cop, on the other hand, is a paid public servant with, unfortunately, some built in credibility and a statement written contemporaneously to the events. Your proof that the statement is false is marginal.
Statement 2 doesn't hurt you either because it is inadmissible in court, but your proof that it is false is about as solid as it gets.
How you proceed, and the advice I give you, depends heavily on how you are handling this matter. If you are proceeding pro se, you're gonna need a lot more information than if you have a lawyer.
In any case, here are some general thoughts:
1. There is no pre-trial motion to be made about this. These things reflect on the credibility of the witness. Only the "trier of fact" can make determinations about credibility. In most criminal cases, that is the jury, but in bench trials, that is the judge AT TRIAL...such determinations don't happen on paper.
2. Statement 2 is something I would normally stay clear of at trial because it reflects poorly on your character and would not be admissible against you unless you introduced it. Here, I'd probably take a different tactic. I would explore the statement with the cop on the stand. Ask where he got his information...when he got his information...Was it in his mind when he approached the car? Is it possible that this false information placed the cop on higher alert than usual? Is it possible that the officer reacted differently based on this false information? This shit lays the groundwork for your defense...Also, go into the timeframe for writing the report. Was it at the moment of detention? Was it hours later? Did he fact check the statment before writing them? Did he sign it under oath without fact checking? Was he as truthful in that statement as he is here today on the stand?
3. This kind of shit is much more common than most people know. I have seen so many resisting charges based solely on a cop being butthurt by the way someone acted. You have a very good chance of acquittal based on what you've posted here, but you should be very calm, direct, and candid on the stand...The more the jury sees you as being like them, the more likely they are to acquit.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16543612 - 07/17/12 08:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Here's something that's been bugging me.
I have a friend who worked at a pharmacy and got caught pinching pain pills. He was also stealing general merchandise and cash.
He got arrested and when the cops started to question him, he followed the Golden Rule: he asked for a lawyer and refused to answer.
But then the cops lied to him. They told him that if he gave them a full written confession, they would only charge him with the drug charge and he'd probably get off with probation and a withhold if he completes probation.
They also told him that if did DIDN'T confess and insisted on talking to a lawyer, they would charge with multiple charges, one for each case of stolen drugs, merchandise theft, and cash theft.
So in summary, the cops told him that if he confessed, there's be a single charge and likely no jail. If he insisted on a lawyer, there would be dozens of charges.
He signed a confession for fear of the consequences if he demanded a lawyer.
Does he have any recourse or are the cops allowed to do this?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16543638 - 07/17/12 08:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
That is arguably a coerced confession...When he mentions the lawyer, the questioning is supposed to stop right there.
I would say that he has a very, very good shot at having the confession suppressed. It's one thing to tell a suspect that he is facing more charges if he doesn't confess. It is another thing altogether to tell him that he is facing more charges if he invokes his miranda rights...
I don't know how much it will help him, of course. If they have a case without the confession, then it really won't matter much if he gets the confession suppressed.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
LySergic D
Drink all day and rock all night


Registered: 10/20/11
Posts: 7,583
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16543691 - 07/17/12 09:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey i got a question for you Enill. When i was arrested at my house recently the detectives also seized my vehicle. When i was arrested, they also DROVE my vehicle away. Is that legal? What if they got in a wreck with my car? I personally think it should have been towed away not driven away. Hell, my insurance doesn't cover them it covers me.
--------------------
Broken heart don't feel so bad You ain't got half of what you thought you had Rock you baby to and fro Not too fast and not too slow
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LySergic D]
#16543712 - 07/17/12 09:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It was legal for them to transport it by driving. It can be damaged during tow just as easily as it can be damaged by driving...
And they would be liable for damages...not you or your insurance.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16543787 - 07/17/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
They should at least fill it up before returning it, eh?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 3
#16543798 - 07/17/12 09:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
They don't have to fill it up. They have three options under the law. It is commonly called the "Gas, Grass, or Ass doctrine."
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
SpecialEd
+ one

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 6,220
Loc: : Gringo
Last seen: 9 years, 1 month
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16544398 - 07/17/12 12:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: They don't have to fill it up. They have three options under the law. It is commonly called the "Gas, Grass, or Ass doctrine."
funniest thing i've seen awhile lol.
-------------------- "Plus one upvote +1..." --- // -- /l_l\/ --\-/----
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: SpecialEd]
#16545189 - 07/17/12 03:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Gotta disagree with you on statement 1 Enlil. If an officer says someone said something and that person comes to trial and says "I never said anything like that" that can't do ANYTHING but hurt the cop's credibility.
I also can't see how you'd steer clear of item 2. It's a clear factual inaccuracy at best, a blatent lie at worst.
I'm appreciative of your help though man. I'm gonna tell the PD I want the cop grilled HARD on those two factual inaccuracies. How many completely bullshit comments can you make in a one-page report that can be PROVEN as FALSE before your credibility is bullshit?
I guess we're going to find out.
--------------------

|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16545228 - 07/17/12 03:23 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Cross examination doesn't work like that...you can't just call witnesses to prove that something he said is false...The false statement has to be material to the case...you're not gonna be able to get your father to testify on that alone...unless he is being called for something else, it's not gonna happen...
Don't be surprised if your PD doesn't see if your way. Remember, the client doesn't get to choose tactics...that is the lawyer's job. This is true even if you are paying the lawyer's salary.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16547326 - 07/17/12 11:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
We'll see dude. I think it's fully material to my case whether or not there are multiple glaring inaccuracies in the report of the arresting officer at the time of the arrest.
This is why I don't like the "justice" system. This guy can't write up a report and have half of it be wrong, lying about what witnesses said in reference to my character and such and you or anyone else just say "THAT'S NOT RELELVANT, OBJECT!".
It's ENTIRELY fucking relevant. Either way I'm going to be okay but you really need to reconsider what you're doing here man. It's a clear indicator that this "officer of the law" is less than fully veritable, which is what all officers are made out to be.
I'm not saying you're not right in regards to law, but there will be hell to pay for this shit man. This is downright *rotten*. There are so many rules and laws about what you CAN'T do to defend yourself from being put into a cage and the karma of that, whether or not you or anyone else believes it, will come back to haunt everyone.
--------------------

|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility] 1
#16548062 - 07/18/12 04:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The rules of evidence exist to maximize the fairness of trials and minimize the unfairness.
I never said that inaccuracies on a police report aren't relevant...They just aren't the bombshell that you seem to think that they are. Attacking the credibility of a witness is very rarely about proving that they are lying. More often, it is about showing that the witness has an imperfect memory or perception of the event.
If you were written a ticket for driving 100 in a 50mph zone, and the cop wrote the wrong day of the week on the ticket, would that really make it any less likely that you were speeding?
Similarly, your criminal record and your father's statments have no bearing on whether or not you resisted arrest. You can certainly challenge the cop on those statements, but you're not going to be allowed to present a bunch of evidence to disprove those statements because they aren't relevant to your case...
Like I said, I would use the false belief in a violent history to paint the situation as being one where the cop, under the false belief that you were a violent person, jumped to some conclusions improperly...
You're never going to sell that the cop intentionally lied about your record...and it's unlikely that you're going to sell that he intentionally lied about your father's statements.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16548089 - 07/18/12 05:08 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I agree. I don't even know that he did lie. I also agree it's best to attack his credibility in regards to error rather than intentional deception.
I'll let you know how the case turns out man, it's gonna be some months though.
--------------------

|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16548133 - 07/18/12 05:35 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Don't be surprised if the offer from the state keeps getting lower as trial approaches...I would say that there is about a 50% chance that the prosecutor drops the case on the eve of trial...
The case against you is bullshit, and once the DA looks more closely at it to prepare for trial, he/she is going to be less and less enthusiastic about working so hard to tarnish your clean record for not rolling down your window fast enough.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
cloudpersona
I don't even...
Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
|
.
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” – Terence McKenna “If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.” -Terence McKenna
Edited by cloudpersona (11/30/12 01:12 PM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
They can charge you with conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance...Of course, the case hinges on this dude's testimony. If all they have is his word, that is a pretty weak case. Most likely, you wouldn't get charged.
They might, however, use his statement to get a warrant and search your place.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
cloudpersona
I don't even...
Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
|
.
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” – Terence McKenna “If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.” -Terence McKenna
Edited by cloudpersona (11/30/12 01:13 PM)
|
Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
|
|
Funny how fast you learn who your real friends are.
I have no qualms saying I've got three. I'd trust them all with my life in absolutely any endeavor for myself or for them.
|
cloudpersona
I don't even...
Registered: 12/17/11
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
|
|
.
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” – Terence McKenna “If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.” -Terence McKenna
Edited by cloudpersona (11/30/12 01:13 PM)
|
Anonymous #3
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Adden]
#16550609 - 07/18/12 04:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Alright bro I hope you can ease my mind. I'm being charged with assault on a female..to make a long story short She attacked me cause I wouldn't let her drive accross town to buy pills. Mind u that we just had a baby together a month ago she is breast feeding smoking herb drinking occasionally and then she bought a pack of cigs just the other day. So I'm not letting drive after she had 2 vodka drinks. Well she starts verbally abusing me telling me I hide pills from her and stuff. So she throws a good size rock at me I dodge it and tell her to get out. She says no so I start packing a night bag at which time she grabs me and hits me in the back I turn around and shove her outta the way she then jumps on my back and starts trying to hit me from behind I try and slam her into the wall to get her off me! We then both trip up on the coffee table and she goes face first into the wall and Ac unit busts her face open It takes me a minute to get up she then starts to choke me I punched her in the face pretty hard she goes to the ground I then try and get outta there but her six year old is standing there crying.We both tell her to go over to the other side of the house after she leaves I'm trying to get out she grabs the back of my shirt rips it of me and punches me I may have hit her again I don't remember?I'm not proud.of any of this and its the first time I've punched a Girl...She is pressing charges but doesn't remember any of the fight. What kind of trouble am I in? I'll tell u part 2 in a little bit thanks!!
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Expect to be charged with assault. Expect a restraining order.
If she truly can't remember it, you won't be convicted at trial...someone has to testify that you did it...and if she can't remember, she won't be able to do that.
Having said that, the state will probably take it all the way...even subpoena her to testify if she changes her mind.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #4
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16550883 - 07/18/12 06:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Lets say for instance, that the police knew my address, and knew that my account here on the shroomery was associated with me & my home address.
In your opinion, would it be enough to have a warrant served based on posting mushroom grows (with pictures) here on this forum from either my home IP address or the IP address that is not my home IP address?
Edited by Anonymous (07/18/12 06:19 PM)
|
Anonymous #3
|
|
She went to the Hospital and I went to jail I have been charged with assault and did admit to punching here once. I know I can't take that back but I was really trying to get out of there. Here is the thing while I was in jail She had her parents come help her move. Well she took everything that O own and paid for I still have receipts. She took over $3000 worth of my electronics also said she flushed my prescriptions down the toilet but O doubt that since they where klonopin percocet and ambien. Should I file a theft charge against her? Also do u know if they would have drug tested her at. The hospital. I don't see my lawyer till next week. Thanks for the info and any advive
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: Lets say for instance, that the police knew my address, and knew that my account here on the shroomery was associated with me & my home address.
In your opinion, would it be enough to have a warrant served based on posting mushroom grows (with pictures) here on this forum from either my home IP address or the IP address that is not my home IP address?
Maybe. If your posts left the impression that you were currently growing at home, and the posts were timely...
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: She went to the Hospital and I went to jail I have been charged with assault and did admit to punching here once. I know I can't take that back but I was really trying to get out of there. Here is the thing while I was in jail She had her parents come help her move. Well she took everything that O own and paid for I still have receipts. She took over $3000 worth of my electronics also said she flushed my prescriptions down the toilet but O doubt that since they where klonopin percocet and ambien. Should I file a theft charge against her? Also do u know if they would have drug tested her at. The hospital. I don't see my lawyer till next week. Thanks for the info and any advive
You have to take her to small claims court for the value of your stuff...the cops can't and won't do anything about it.
Your confession is probably enough to convict you along with the girls injuries...unless you get the confession suppressed, you're probably sunk.
They probably wouldn't have drug tested her, and it wouldn't matter anyway.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,700
Loc: Utah
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16551299 - 07/18/12 07:45 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
Anonymous said: Lets say for instance, that the police knew my address, and knew that my account here on the shroomery was associated with me & my home address.
In your opinion, would it be enough to have a warrant served based on posting mushroom grows (with pictures) here on this forum from either my home IP address or the IP address that is not my home IP address?
Maybe. If your posts left the impression that you were currently growing at home, and the posts were timely...
Correct me if I'm wrong here Enlil, but won't the IP addresses not be factored in?
The police would need to get logs from the server to know that a specific IP address is associated with a specific username, and to my knowledge the Shroomery has never turned over any logs to the police. Of course, you could still be possibly raided just from knowing the username was associated with a specific person at a specific address, but I don't think the IP would come into play.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: nooneman]
#16551331 - 07/18/12 07:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The ip is a way to track someone down, but the facts that I was given assumed that the cops already knew the account was associated with a particular person and address.
Truthfully, chasing someone with ip doesn't happen a lot. It is the kind of thing largely reserved for serious violent crimes.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16551563 - 07/18/12 08:34 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'm not sure how much you can speak to the way curtilage is currently handled in general but I assume it's more or less the same state-to-state since it's primarily based on the 4th. Specifically I'm interested in how it relates to a house on gated property, with the gate locked. First how would it relate to a gate and no wall so that it still allows foot access to a driveway marked 'No Trespassing', that is what level of evidence or suspicion would be enough for law enforcement officers to enter. My first guess is 'none' but I figure it's worth asking.
Second what if you have the gate set into a wall or hedgerow so that it doesn't allow foot access? Is there any difference?
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16553125 - 07/19/12 04:33 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The four factors determining whether a piece of property is curtilage: 1. Distance - The size and proximity of the area to the house. 2. Enclosure - How enclosed the area is. 3. Use - The type of activity done in the area 4. Protection from Observation - Steps to purposely obscur the area from view
In your hypothetical, there are not enough facts to really analyze most of these factors, since I know nothing about the size, proximity, use, or amount of protection from observation.
Failure to fully enclose does not necessarily defeat a claim that the area is curtilage. If the opening is in the front to a public street...most likely it won't be curtilage. If it is in the back to another part of the same property...it might be.
I have found that the most important factors of curtilage are use and protection. If the area is used for intimate family/home stuff...it's much more likely to be curtilage. Similarly, if opaque walls or high hedges surround it...same deal.
The second part of your question should be obvious by now...yes...full enclosure makes a difference.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16555575 - 07/19/12 05:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I have a question (I live in Oregon if that helps):
Today I find out that when I turned 18 some lady at the DA's office arbitrarily decided that my mom would have 100% custody. The original divorce agreement was for 50-50 custody. I was not notified of this decision ever and it fucks me and my dad over royally. My dad now owes 4 times what he did in child support, despite that he just got cut to half time at work. I also lose my health insurance and my tuition discount that I got at my university. The change happened over a year ago, but they were re-evaluating the child support now which is why I just found out about it.
I called the lady at the DA's office to see what had happened, and the lady says she just arbitrarily chose I would be my moms and didn't even notify me of it. She says she can't (or won't) change it back.
Is this legal? Is there anything that I can do about it?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
|
4-AcO-MET
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/12
Posts: 587
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: BoldAsLove]
#16555990 - 07/19/12 06:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Do you ever get really baked before hearings/trials?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: BoldAsLove]
#16556049 - 07/19/12 06:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I have to apologize to you because I am not really up on family law. It is an area of law that I specifically have avoided. On top of that, it is an area that is very, very state specific.
I cant give you anything resembling an accurate answer.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16556061 - 07/19/12 06:59 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
That's alright, I figured it was outside your area of expertise. Thanks anyway.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: 4-AcO-MET]
#16556070 - 07/19/12 07:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The hardest drug I use is sugar...so no...
But I know many attorneys that drink like fish....It is very common for attorneys to have a flask in their briefcases...
I don't know of any that are heavy users of any drugs...sorry to disappoint.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Chemical Addiction



Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 2,020
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16556711 - 07/19/12 08:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I was watching the videos stickied in this forum and i was wondering if i had to show my I.D. if i'm not being arrested or pulled over. I live in arizona so i imagine the answer is yes but it would be nice if there was a loophole. I was under the impression it was illegal to not have an I.D. I've never been harassed when not in my truck as i'm anti-social and dont get out much but you never know
-------------------- Vegetation has crawled for miles towards the cities. It is waiting. Once the city is dead, the vegetation will cover it, will climb over the stones, grip them, search them, make them burst with its long black pincers; it will blind the holes and let its green paws hang over everything. —Jean-Paul Sartre, Nausea
|
BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
|
|
I just thought of another question. It's regarding officer safety searches. An officer is allowed to pat you down to look for weapons, right, and remove any "possible weapons" from your pockets? What if he removes a marijuana pipe from my pocket? Someone told me or I heard somewhere that it would technically have found without a warrant and therefore inadmissible in court? Is that correct, or way off?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
You don't have to have id with you. If you're driving, of course, you need a license. In any case, the police can stop you on the street and ask your name. If you don't give that, they can certainly arrest you for it.
Beyond that, of course, you can tell them you have nothing to say.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: BoldAsLove]
#16558434 - 07/20/12 04:21 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You're talking about a "terry frisk." This does not extend to anything other than weapons. He can pat you down for weapons only...
BUT, if something about that patdown suddenly gives him probable cause to search you, then he can do that. For instance, if during the patdown, some weed falls out of your jacket...he's gonna seize that. This is true under "plain view" doctrine. An officer is not required to avert his eyes when engaged in a lawful activity and he sees evidence of illegality.
This has been stretched a bit with what has become known as "plain feel doctrine". Its a bit nonsensical, but if the officer can tell something is contraband WITHOUT MANIPULATING THE OBJECT, he can seize that as well.
As you can probably guess, this is pretty dicey shit.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16558882 - 07/20/12 08:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You have to tell the police your name even if you're stopped without cause as you walk around legally in a public space?
Damn!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16558922 - 07/20/12 08:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
yes....assuming there is a law in your state that requires it...The Constitution provides no protection from it, though.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16559107 - 07/20/12 09:30 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Wow, so an officer can just pat me down without a warrant, or really probably cause even, and find some contraband and I get arrested for it. Damn, that seems like a pretty gross violation of the 4th amendment there. I understand if something falls out, or is peeking out, of your pocket, but just feeling something and arresting me for it, haven't I just been searched without consent? What are the odds that someone can defend against it in court?
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: BoldAsLove]
#16559139 - 07/20/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
This is the type of situation that pretty routinely results in a motion to suppress. The cop will be put on the stand, and he will testify to what he felt, and how he determined that it was contraband. Sometimes, the search is thrown out...sometimes it isn't.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16559337 - 07/20/12 10:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
And that's why when they do the Terry patdown they'll frequently ask something like "What is this?" while pressing on something they suspect is contraband - they're trying to get you to admit it is so they don't have to fight the suppression motion later, or at least make it easier.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16559349 - 07/20/12 10:22 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16561228 - 07/20/12 04:56 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Ha ha! Penis.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
BoldAsLove
Pokemon Master


Registered: 03/10/11
Posts: 2,549
Loc: Kanto Region
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16564009 - 07/21/12 11:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
NizzyJones said: And that's why when they do the Terry patdown they'll frequently ask something like "What is this?" while pressing on something they suspect is contraband - they're trying to get you to admit it is so they don't have to fight the suppression motion later, or at least make it easier.
What if I do have contraband and they feel it and ask "What is this?" How do I respond? If I don't admit to having it, he can't use that against me in court and I would be more likely to get it suppressed later, right? Lying would get me in more trouble, I know that. What if I just kept silent, would that help? I realize I'm pretty much screwed in that situation, but there has to be a right way and a wrong way to do things.
-------------------- DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor and Ferdinand , the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: BoldAsLove]
#16564632 - 07/21/12 02:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just keep quiet...or say something like "Could you please hurry so I can be on my way."
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #5
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16565657 - 07/21/12 09:25 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Enil, is silence ever not the best response to any question posed by police if you may be violating a law?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Absolutes are always false...including the one I just said..
There are rare cases where saying something is better than saying nothing. Most lawyers won't admit this because the cases are so rare that it is unlikely that you're going to run into one...and you're much more likely to damage yourself thinking that you're in one of the rare cases....
Here's a reality that you have to accept when dealing with cops:
They're better at the interrogation game than you.
I don't care if you're Steven Hawking...they're still better at this game than you are. On top of that, they have the advantage in this game. They don't play by the same rules as you do. If they lie, it's okay..if you do, it's gonna hurt you later and might even be a separate charge.
The deck is stacked against you in a big way. If you think you're going to outsmart them or outmaneuver them, you're most likely wrong. I went to school for 3 years to learn how to think like a lawyer...I routinely cross-examine and destroy cops on the stand...But it is a very, very rare case where I would talk to cops investigating me. That is their game played in their environment by their rules.
Having said all of the above, there are time that problems can be avoided by talking to the cops. These are the rare instance where clarification is all that is needed to make a charge disappear or not be filed. In these rare cases, you should talk to the cops with an attorney at your side. He will be able to stop you if the interview starts going south.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #6
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16567164 - 07/22/12 08:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
my uncle raped a 5 year old...i hear you defend child rapists? can you help me?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
I work for the public defender's office at the moment, so I do not take private clients for work except under exceptional circumstances.
He shouldn't have any problem finding an attorney. Criminal defense attorneys routinely accept cases much worse than what you're describing. Failing that, he can always use the services of the public defender's office...assuming that he meets the income requirements.
While that answered your question, it appears that your post is less of a question and more of an attempt at eliciting some type of reaction from me. While I don't know what type of reaction you're hoping for, I can assure you that I have indeed successfully represented people accused of child rape. I am quite proud of a particular acquittal I earned a bit over a year ago for just such a charge.
Defense attorneys don't (or at least shouldn't) pick clients based on whether or not they're guilty. Everyone charged with a crime has a right to competent representation. If I ever refused a case because I thought someone was guilty, I would be taking on the role of the jury. That is neither my job nor where my expertise lies.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (07/22/12 09:09 AM)
|
Anonymous #7
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16589031 - 07/25/12 08:48 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
A person calls and blackmails me from a state where both persons must know of the recording, but I am in a state where only one person needs to know of the recording. Is recording the conversation for legal purposes useful down the road in getting the blackmailer nailed, or not? What if both states are ones that need mutual consent? Will the recording be evidence to put blackmailer away? If I record happenings within property that is my own (i.e cars or houses), then can I also use these recordings without consent?
Also, what's your best advice during search and seizure? Call a lawyer to supervise perhaps? Is it good to have some papers prepared? If the police are seizing electronic equipment how can you record the search and seizure and control for planted evidence? Any experience or best practices for this?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16591344 - 07/26/12 09:14 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Say I'm caught selling drugs and my laptop where I keep the contact info for all my customers and accounts is confiscated. The cops (or a judge) find that I use encryption to protect my data and they demand my password.
Can I be compelled to give up the password? Considering that I'm being asked to give up the content of my mind, it reads like testifying against myself. On the other hand, passwords have been likened to keys in my pocket which can be confiscated to open a safe containing incriminating documents.
What if my password is the phrase "I am a drug dealer." and so by giving up my password, I've now been compelled to give a confession without consent?
I know there is still very little case law, but what's your take on how this will eventually be resolved?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16591986 - 07/26/12 11:28 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Say I'm caught selling drugs and my laptop where I keep the contact info for all my customers and accounts is confiscated. The cops (or a judge) find that I use encryption to protect my data and they demand my password.
Can I be compelled to give up the password? Considering that I'm being asked to give up the content of my mind, it reads like testifying against myself. On the other hand, passwords have been likened to keys in my pocket which can be confiscated to open a safe containing incriminating documents.
What if my password is the phrase "I am a drug dealer." and so by giving up my password, I've now been compelled to give a confession without consent?
I know there is still very little case law, but what's your take on how this will eventually be resolved?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-57364330-281/judge-americans-can-be-forced-to-decrypt-their-laptops/
This is a pretty good article on the state of the law in that area. Lower courts have come down on both sides of it.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16593108 - 07/26/12 02:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You can not be forced to testify against yourself but who can afford to take it to scotus if lower courts go against you? The constitution has regularly been trampled by both parties so who knows.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
CidneyIndole
www.shroomery.OG



Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 4,762
Loc: Love's Secret Domain
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16593960 - 07/26/12 04:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
As far as the legality of it all, while you're stopped, a cop can call a K9 without any probable cause as long as he is not doing it for the purpose of unreasonably detaining you longer. If the K9 alerts, that's probable cause. There's no way around it unless you can show in court that the dog is prone to false alerts, etc...nothing you can control at the scene.
I thought my sources credible, when I learned that in such a scenario, (in a traffic stop) they only have the right to detain you so long as it takes to run your information and / or write you a citation, and that for them to detain you longer would constitute a "field arrest." At which point they need probable cause or reasonable suspicion to hold you....
Please do correct me if I'm wrong, and where you think that may be.
Could have sworn I read a case where a guy with a whole trunk full of cocaine was thrown out on this basis.... though don't quote me on that one, as I may be mixing up cases there
-------------------- ------------------------ I am me. We are You.
|
Anonymous #8
|
|
say one is trying to be proactive and look for a good lawyer in the case that something ever happens, how would you suggest seeking out a good criminal defense lawyer? one who would be useful and experienced in federal level cases? i know usually you would look for ex prosecutors but im wondering if that still is the case if the case is federal.
can you really talk to them? should one speak in hypothetical terms? in 'my friend' terms? should one speak to them at all prior to a case? should one pay him before talking to him so he is covered under attorney client privilege?
is seeking out a lawyer before there is even a case to speak of, a guilty action of it's own? how up front can you be with a prospective lawyer?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: A person calls and blackmails me from a state where both persons must know of the recording, but I am in a state where only one person needs to know of the recording. Is recording the conversation for legal purposes useful down the road in getting the blackmailer nailed, or not? What if both states are ones that need mutual consent? Will the recording be evidence to put blackmailer away? If I record happenings within property that is my own (i.e cars or houses), then can I also use these recordings without consent?
Also, what's your best advice during search and seizure? Call a lawyer to supervise perhaps? Is it good to have some papers prepared? If the police are seizing electronic equipment how can you record the search and seizure and control for planted evidence? Any experience or best practices for this?
Sorry about the delay. I have been out of town. The one-party/two-party laws are about the legality of the recording...they don't have anything to do with the admissibility of the recording, generally. Remember, the constitution only protects you from illegal searches by the government. If a private person obtains evidence illegally, it is almost always admissible.
There may be some states that have specific rules of evidence that preclude illegally obtained recordings, but they certainly don't apply if the recordings are used for impeachment of a witness..
The other side, of course, is that if the recording is illegal, you can be subject to penalties for making the recording...this is completely separate from the other matter. If you are in a one party state, however, you are not subject to the laws of the other state. You can't be hailed into court in the other state for recording the phone call in your hypothetical
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16598039 - 07/27/12 06:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Say I'm caught selling drugs and my laptop where I keep the contact info for all my customers and accounts is confiscated. The cops (or a judge) find that I use encryption to protect my data and they demand my password.
Can I be compelled to give up the password? Considering that I'm being asked to give up the content of my mind, it reads like testifying against myself. On the other hand, passwords have been likened to keys in my pocket which can be confiscated to open a safe containing incriminating documents.
What if my password is the phrase "I am a drug dealer." and so by giving up my password, I've now been compelled to give a confession without consent?
I know there is still very little case law, but what's your take on how this will eventually be resolved?
As of now, it appears that you can be compelled to give up your encryption keys. The 5th amendment does not protect you from every possible forced-disclosure. It is a very limited protection against testifying against yourself in a criminal trial. As you mentioned, it doesn't protect you against any possible disclosure of evidence.
Evidence found on a laptop is not testimony, and is, at best, circumstantial evidence of a crime. The 5th doesn't really protect you here.
This area of the law is emerging, and it is likely to be eventually clarified quite a bit. Until then, I predict that compelled disclosure will be more of the rule than the exception.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
CidneyIndole said: I thought my sources credible, when I learned that in such a scenario, (in a traffic stop) they only have the right to detain you so long as it takes to run your information and / or write you a citation, and that for them to detain you longer would constitute a "field arrest." At which point they need probable cause or reasonable suspicion to hold you....
Please do correct me if I'm wrong, and where you think that may be.
Could have sworn I read a case where a guy with a whole trunk full of cocaine was thrown out on this basis.... though don't quote me on that one, as I may be mixing up cases there
This is generally correct...The line between the two lies in how "reasonable" the timeframe is... we know that 10 minutes is reasonable, and we know that 2 hours is not...in between that..it could go either way.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: say one is trying to be proactive and look for a good lawyer in the case that something ever happens, how would you suggest seeking out a good criminal defense lawyer? one who would be useful and experienced in federal level cases? i know usually you would look for ex prosecutors but im wondering if that still is the case if the case is federal.
can you really talk to them? should one speak in hypothetical terms? in 'my friend' terms? should one speak to them at all prior to a case? should one pay him before talking to him so he is covered under attorney client privilege?
is seeking out a lawyer before there is even a case to speak of, a guilty action of it's own? how up front can you be with a prospective lawyer?
This answer will be long because I think there is a bit of a confusion about how attorney-client privilege and duty of confidentiality work.
First, seeking out a lawyer is never a guilty action of its own.
Second, paying a lawyer has no bearing whatsoever on attorney client privilege or duty of confidentiality. If you're talking to a lawyer trying to decide whether or not to hire him, and you give him confidential information...it's protected...it doesn't matter whether you've paid him or not.
On to attorney-client privilege and duty of confidentiality...I put them together because one is a subset of the other. Every privileged communication is confidential although not every confidential communicationn is privileged...
A/C privilege only refers to information that a court cannot compel the attorney to disclose. This includes anything you tell the attorney about the case. It also includes anything the attorney tells you that, if revealed, would also reveal what you told the attorney. This does NOT include documents you give to the attorney...or any physical evidence..
Confidential information is everything else that you give to the attorney...documents, physical evidence, etc.. This stuff is not privileged, but the lawyer still has a duty not to disclose this shit...The duty of confidentiality goes on forever...even after the client's death.
From here on out, I'm going to talk about the duty of confidentiality since it is the larger set, and any situation that allows confidentiality to be broken also defeats the privilege.
So, you asked about giving lawyers incriminating evidence...here are some things that you can count on as absolutes:
1. If you tell your attorney that you murdered 100 women in 40 states, he can never reveal that under any circumstances without your consent or waiver (waiver can occur if you tell other people)
2. If you tell your attorney that you are going to murder 1 woman in the future, he can reveal that (and in many states, MUST reveal it if necessary to stop you)
The difference here is the past/future issue...you can always tell your lawyer anything that you did in the past...The only exception is where you used the lawyer's services to harm another. If you do that, he has to take all steps necessary to right the wrong done. talking about future deeds is another matter. From here on, we're only going to be discussing future deeds..
The rules about this are found in the "Rules of Professional Conduct" and vary slightly from state to state.
If you tell your lawyer about a plan to cause bodily harm to someone in the future, he has a duty to try to stop you. If that requires disclosure, then he must do that. Some states make this mandatory only if it is "serious bodily harm" and optional if it is simply bodily harm.
If you tell your lawyer about a plan to cause pecuniary (financial) harm to another, then the lawyer has the option of disclosing...in a few states, this is a mandatory disclosure scenario as well.
If you tell your lawyer about how you plan to use HIS SERVICES to harm someone else, he has to withdraw or dissuade you from doing it.
If you tell your lawyer about a crime you're going to commit in the future that will not harm someone, he can't disclose, but he has to try to dissuade you and can't help you do it or give you advice about how not to get caught.
That's the basic landscape of the law here. If you read the rules of professional conduct in your state, it will be more specific. They aren't long and are pretty easy to read.
As far as my advice for seeking out a crim lawyer...use an ex-public defender or an ex-prosecutor....trial experience is everything, and you don't get that in a private practice.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
JesseWhite780
Me

Registered: 05/16/12
Posts: 365
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16598132 - 07/27/12 07:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Tell me have you ever heard of a case where someone was harangued by the police for simply having microscopic spores mailed to their home? Everyone on here has said no but as a lawyer you may have come across a situation such as this scenario.
--------------------
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16598181 - 07/27/12 07:29 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Awesome thread, thank you Enlil! I don't really have a question, but frequently people wonder about legal aspects of posting on the Shroomery. If you feel like writing on the subject of grow logs or posting pics whatever I'm sure the post would be bookmarked by a lot of people.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16598242 - 07/27/12 07:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So I'm arrested and convicted of some crime. Then I apply for a job somewhere and a records company finds the conviction in my background check. At some point I manage to get the record sealed or expunged, but the records company is still aware that it once existed and keeps it in their database.
Now I apply for another job and, although the record officially doesn't exist, the records company still has it in their database and tells the employer that in fact I was convicted even though the official record doesn't exist any more. So I don't get the job.
Am I fucked or do I have recourse to demand the records company erase their knowledge of my now-sealed or expunged conviction?
Also, what if a state judge orders the record sealed, but the FBI doesn't do it and it remains a matter of public information. Do I have any recourse in this case?
Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. You rock.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16599357 - 07/27/12 12:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I believe i have the answer for the forced disclosure of a password. Simply say "i forgot". They will not believe you but you can say you were testing out encryption and encrypted some unimportant file, you forgot what was on the file, and did it as a test. It was so unimportant you never went back to it and eventually forgot the pass phrase.
This differs from "i will not tell" in that you are not saying you have it and are refusing to give it up. Claiming you lost the passphrase and are not capable of recovering it puts things in a whole different perspective. Saying "i forgot" has worked in many other situations including high govt officials covering up illegal behavior. The court can compel certain acts under threat of contempt of court and journalists, for example, have been imprisoned up to 6 months in one case i remember and maybe longer in one or two others. Eventually they were released. But they were openly defying the court.
Forgetting is not a crime so i believe this would help you. If what is on the file will send you away for a long time, even a month or two on contempt will be much better and a good lawyer might be able to get you out of even that. But if other people testify you said you knew the phrase and were going to deny remembering it then look forward to a fairly long contempt term. But a felony conviction will be worse and may involve years in prison so it would still be the lesser of the evils. Sort of like most presidential contests.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16600308 - 07/27/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I believe i have the answer for the forced disclosure of a password. Simply say "i forgot".
That won't work if the judge doesn't believe you.
If you can convince the judge, then you're good to go. But ask yourself if you would believe it if YOU were the judge. Some guy is traveling around with a test laptop to test encryption software? Seems pretty far-fetched to me. If you're testing it, why are you traveling with it? Shouldn't it be back on your bench where you can, you know, test it and stuff, not in your luggage at an airport?
Would YOU believe that story? I wouldn't. I'd lock you up for contempt. Especially of some cop testifies that he saw you using it recently.
even a month or two on contempt will be much better
I don't believe there is any limit on how long you can be jailed for contempt if you refuse to cooperate.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16600701 - 07/27/12 04:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
>Some guy is traveling around with a test laptop to test encryption software? Seems pretty far-fetched to me. If you're testing it, why are you traveling with it? Shouldn't it be back on your bench where you can, you know, test it and stuff, not in your luggage at an airport?
Now you are conjuring up some odd scenario involving an airport and traveling around. Not sure where that came in or what relevance it would have. I said it was a test you had made some time back. I don't see what is so hard to believe about forgetting something.
>Especially of some cop testifies that he saw you using it recently.
Why not toss in a confession while you are at it? sheesh!
>I don't believe there is any limit on how long you can be jailed for contempt if you refuse to cooperate.
You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something. Most of us have forgotten passwords at some time or other. A court can order you to do things but if you are physically unable then jailing you for contempt is an abuse of power. And yes, there are limits to everything. The longest i recall hearing of anyone jailed for contempt was about 18 months and it was willful refusal. It is not clear if you can be forced to give evidence against yourself and demanding someone remember something they have forgotten and then punishing them for not being able to do it would be a violation of the constitution for sure. Judges have higher courts looking over their shoulders for abuses of power.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
JesseWhite780 said: Tell me have you ever heard of a case where someone was harangued by the police for simply having microscopic spores mailed to their home? Everyone on here has said no but as a lawyer you may have come across a situation such as this scenario.
No...I've never heard of it.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16601703 - 07/27/12 07:13 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: So I'm arrested and convicted of some crime. Then I apply for a job somewhere and a records company finds the conviction in my background check. At some point I manage to get the record sealed or expunged, but the records company is still aware that it once existed and keeps it in their database.
Now I apply for another job and, although the record officially doesn't exist, the records company still has it in their database and tells the employer that in fact I was convicted even though the official record doesn't exist any more. So I don't get the job.
Am I fucked or do I have recourse to demand the records company erase their knowledge of my now-sealed or expunged conviction?
Also, what if a state judge orders the record sealed, but the FBI doesn't do it and it remains a matter of public information. Do I have any recourse in this case?
Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. You rock. 
Expungements work slightly differently in each state, but the basic process is that the original guilty plea (or verdict) is set aside, and the charges are dismissed. This means that you don't have a conviction on your record at all...
Having said that, it can still be found sometimes...and the cops certainly can see it in their database.
Having a record sealed usually refers to the sealing of a juvenile record when one reaches adulthood...these are not publically viewable...but in some states, the cops can see them...in other states they cannot. In every state, however, juvenile record can be used as a factor in sentencing...and therefore can be used as a factor in setting bail...
As far as recourse against a potential employer...usually, you have none. In most states, an employer can consider any factor, including arrests without convictions...or even a reputation...in hiring decisions. Only in states that specifically preclude an employer from considering certain types of offenses would you have any recourse at all...
As far as who to sue, that's going to depend on the business relationship between the record check company and the employer. The record company isn't a "credit reporting agency" under the FCRA, so they aren't subject to all of the accuracy and dispute laws that exist for credit reports. Most likely, you only have a suit in general libel for a false statement that tends to hurt your reputation...only question is: Is it really a false statement to claim that you've been convicted? This is a tough sell in court, imo.
RE: the fbi file...That is not public information as far as I am aware. I do not believe that you can get someone else' fbi file without consent. I could be wrong here, but this is what I believe to be true. The fbi certainly has no need to follow some random court's order, however...The court can only order those who are under the jurisdiction of the court, and unless the fbi is somehow a litigant...it is under no obligation to follow the state court's order.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16601717 - 07/27/12 07:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: I don't believe there is any limit on how long you can be jailed for contempt if you refuse to cooperate.
I believe the record is 14 years...
http://www.loweringthebar.net/2009/07/lawyer-jailed-for-contempt-is-freed-after-14-years.html
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #9
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16606707 - 07/28/12 02:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I was just wondering how safe it is to post info that you're growing illegal shrooms or even weed on forums? I mean it seems like it is safe because everyone is taking pics and making grow logs etc. I just would think that Police have right to contact admin and grab I.P info from anyone that has said they are growing shrooms?
Then what's stopping them from making a surprise visit to your home?
I posted on a forum from my own country that's also focused on drugs and now I'm not sure if that was a good idea. So I'm too scared to ask this question there.
It's ok if you're answer is made for U.S.. I'll just hope my country has similar laws.
I expect it's safe though I would just like to know why in that case.
Edited by Anonymous (08/08/12 01:19 PM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
In the U.S., the cops can always ask for ip information from an isp or a site. Of course, the isp and the site can both refuse to provide it without a subpoena or warrant.
I don't know about swedish law, but I suspect there are similar protections. The bigger issue is whether the site would be willing to turn over such information without a warrant...I'm confident that shroomery wouldn't turn anything over without one...but you never know...
Of course, an IP address really can't tell them too much. At best, it can locate where the post was made. It can't tell who posted....or who took the picture...or where the picture was taken...In the U.S., an ip would be enough to get a warrant, but not enough to convict if they found nothing in the search.
So generally, it's pretty safe. There is always, however, a chance that some enterprising cops might one day decide to track down small quantity manufacturers and are willing to go through all of the trouble to do it with ip addresses...
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Adden

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16610288 - 07/29/12 10:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If the feds pull an "Operation Web Tryp" on mushroom cult...
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16610359 - 07/29/12 11:17 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something.
And you're missing my whole point too. That will not fly if the judge believes you are lying about forgetting the password. It may be plausible on a computer you put in the closet last year and haven't used since, but not on your laptop you're carrying with you. Judges aren't stupid.
As for the airport scenario, it was taken from a recent case where a cop saw a guy looking at kiddy porn on his laptop then conveniently "forgot" his password. The judge called bullshit. Guess where he's spending quality time right now?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610491 - 07/29/12 11:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said:
The record company isn't a "credit reporting agency" under the FCRA, so they aren't subject to all of the accuracy and dispute laws that exist for credit reports. Most likely, you only have a suit in general libel for a false statement that tends to hurt your reputation...only question is: Is it really a false statement to claim that you've been convicted? This is a tough sell in court, imo.
They are (or were, unless the law changed recently) in many cases. It turns on what the purpose of the provision of information was. If it was something for personal, consumer, application, like a job, then they are bound by the law. Of course, if the cops use it to investigate you or something like that, then no, but generally it comes up in job applications, and those are usually FCRA credit reports.
Quote:
The term “consumer report” means any written, oral, or other communication of any information by a consumer reporting agency bearing on a consumer's credit worthiness, credit standing, credit capacity, character, general reputation, personal characteristics, or mode of living which is used or expected to be used or collected in whole or in part for the purpose of serving as a factor in establishing the consumer's eligibility for[...] (b) employment purposes
FCRA sec 603(d)(1)
Quote:
Enlil said: The bigger issue is whether the site would be willing to turn over such information without a warrant...I'm confident that shroomery wouldn't turn anything over without one...but you never know...
The admins have said such things before (with the exception of malicious attacks on the site), but it seems like most sites and organizations are willing to just give the government whatever they ask for. eBay brags about how they'll give any law enforcement agency who asks any information they have, even stuff that isn't publicly visible. Apparently there are people out there who think its a good thing that a site "cooperates with the authorities". How absurd.
Quote:
Diploid said: You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something.
And you're missing my whole point too. That will not fly if the judge believes you are lying about forgetting the password. It may be plausible on a computer you put in the closet last year and haven't used since, but not on your laptop you're carrying with you. Judges aren't stupid.
As for the airport scenario, it was taken from a recent case where a cop saw a guy looking at kiddy porn on his laptop then conveniently "forgot" his password. The judge called bullshit. Guess where he's spending quality time right now?
Depending on the circumstances, you may be able to avoid a criminal contempt conviction, though, if you can create enough doubt. Of course, that won't stop them from jailing you for a good long while, but eventually they'll have to give it up. Is the guy in the airport actually charged with criminal contempt? (not that the papers are high enough quality to know in most cases, the reporting on legal and scientific matters is abysmal).
I'm really getting tired of the moral panick over child pornography. Just like the war on drugs, its used to justify all manner of ridiculous crap- of course they never exclude the laws to child pornography, so it ends up screwing everybody. I really fail to see the problem if some pervert has dirty pictures- it seems silly to think that in itself is a crime.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
#16610506 - 07/29/12 11:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I really fail to see the problem if some pervert has dirty pictures- it seems silly to think that in itself is a crime.
You think that's bad, in some cases even a pencil drawing of kiddy porn can land you in jail.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610537 - 07/29/12 12:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: You think that's bad, in some cases even a pencil drawing of kiddy porn can land you in jail. 
That would be a very, very rare case indeed...
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16610664 - 07/29/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Computer generated images are now so good, that you can't tell the difference without a careful examination. It's prompted thought-police laws like this one:
Wiki:
In response to Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush.[50] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".
By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value. And mere possession of said images is not a violation of the law unless it can be proven that they were transmitted through a common carrier, such as the mail or the internet, or transported across state lines.[51] There is also an affirmative defense made for possession of no more than two images with "reasonable steps to destroy" the images or reporting and turning over the images to law enforcement.[52]
On December 18, 2008 the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction.[57] The court stated that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists." Attorneys for Mr. Whorley have said that they will appeal to the Supreme Court.[58][59] The request for rehearing was denied on June 15, 2009 and the petition for his case to be reviewed by the Supreme Court was denied on January 11, 2010.[60]
In October 2008, Neil Gaiman and the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund became involved with the case of Christopher Handley. In 2009, Handley pled guilty to the charges and in February 2010 was sentenced to six months in prison.[62]
In October 2010, a 33 year old Idaho man, Steven Kutzner, entered into a plea agreement concerning images of child characters from the American animated television show, The Simpsons engaged in sexual acts.[63][64] In January 2011, Kutzner was sentenced to serve 15 months in federal prison.
So far Christopher Handley has been the only person found guilty of possession under laws against artificial depictions that was not also under investigation for child pornography involving real minors.[
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610739 - 07/29/12 12:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
As I said...a rare case indeed.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16611296 - 07/29/12 03:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid, regardless of where the seizure takes place, even at an airport as you keep saying, certain things hold true. A judge can order many things but if someone is broke they can not be held indefinitely for failure to pay a fine or other court ordered payment. That 14 year case enlil managed to dig up is a rarity indeed and no doubt had special circumstances. They probably could show he sent money abroad and no record of it coming back or being lost. Offshore accounts or somesuch.
Another example is lets say a judge orders someone to personally clean a house or personally perform some other manual labor. If the person is in a wheelchair or otherwise incapacitated, that order will be overturned and one would hope the judge would have enough sense not to make it or would give the option to pay someone to do the task.
Obviously if a cop saw you opening a file and then close it and claim you can't open it again, the judge will be very skeptical in that situation you made up. Most things are not so cut and dry. I challenge anyone to find me a case where someone was ordered to remember things they had forgotten and spent a considerable time in jail as a result. I'm sure enlil would have posted if he could find such a case, who else wants to try?
"Judge, i tried and tried to open it but i forgot the password or passphrase" Investigators say "the file was accessed just a week before the arrest" defendant: "yes judge, i keep trying to open it but with no luck" The story is air tight and if the contents of the file will put you away for a felony, would you rather take a chance on misdemeanor contempt of court or do some hard time with a felony?
I happen to think locking people up for years or decades for looking at dirty pictures is an abomination all by itself but no doubt several will vehemently defend such penalties. We are still in the dark ages in many ways. Lock people up for directly harming someone but dirty pictures is so medieval and puritanical its amazing. People get literally decades for simple possession.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16612460 - 07/29/12 06:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
A judge can order many things but if someone is broke they can not be held indefinitely for failure to pay a fine or other court ordered payment.
So what? If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up. I don't understand what part EXACTLY of that I have wrong. Can you tell me? It's a simple direct question.
Obviously if a cop saw you opening a file and then close it and claim you can't open it again, the judge will be very skeptical in that situation you made up. Most things are not so cut and dry.
Well, if you're walking around with your laptop, it's almost as cut a dry. Why would you be walking around with a useless laptop you can't access because you forgot the password? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you're lying.
The story is air tight and if the contents of the file will put you away for a felony, would you rather take a chance on misdemeanor contempt of court or do some hard time with a felony?
It depends on how serious the judge is and how long I'm likely to get if convicted.
I happen to think locking people up for years or decades for looking at dirty pictures is an abomination
Preaching to the choir, but that doesn't change the facts as I've put them on the table. If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up and there is no limit in principle to how long that can be for.
If *I* were the judge and some rapist-murderer was about to walk free because he "conveniently" forgot his password, I'll rot in my grave before I let him go. Period. The the law pretty much backs the judge up on that.
Your mileage may vary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 1
#16612749 - 07/29/12 07:33 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
I'm pretty sure he also defends innocent people accused of child rape.
I for one would be grateful for the help if falsely accused and a world of sself-righteous jerks prejudged me because, god dammit, someone must pay even if I didn't do it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
|
Quote:
bushrat said: enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
How does that follow? I'm sure he defends a number of assholes, so what?
Either you believe in an adversarial system (with appropriate checks), or you don't. If you don't, you're going to have to explain how to safeguard the law and check the governmental and adjudicator's power. There simply isn't any decent alternative that I can tell.
As soon as you grant the government, or anyone, the right to just summarily dispose of the "bad people" you grant them the right to determine who they are. Its not that I'm per se opposed to just disposing of horrible people, its that there's no way to determine who they are and safeguard the rights of the rest of the people without a robust adversarial process founded on law.
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
|
Quote:
bushrat said: enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
Boring old troll is boring. Move along.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613134 - 07/29/12 08:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
oh look, its the other pedo coming in defense of his buddy. Did he go to the NAMBLA forums and IM you to come help? You pedos are so insecure with yourselves, which is the reason you have to take advantage of young, susceptible children....It gives you a sense of power and control that you would never get in fucking consenting adults. Have fun with your little pedo party with enfamil.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613155 - 07/29/12 08:39 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Doc_T said: Boring old troll is boring. Move along.
This.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613361 - 07/29/12 09:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
go enter the ban lotto.then fuss about it when you win and create multiple ragee puppets.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
bushrat said: go enter the ban lotto.then fuss about it when you win and create multiple ragee puppets.
Does this look like OTD to you? What exactly is your purpose here? Looking at your three posts, you look just like a child screaming "look at me!" over and over.
I can only assume that your goal here was to somehow shame me for representing people whom you have deemed unworthy of representation. I feel absolutely no shame for representing child rapists, however. On the contrary, I take great pride in the fact that I do not judge my clients by the charges with which they have been accused. Even the worst in our society should enjoy the presumption of innocence and are entitled to competent representation when they become the target of a prosecution.
The very fact that you chose "child rape" as the subject of your post reflects the societal knee-jerk reaction to such a charge. These people rarely get anything resembling a fair shake in the court of public opinion. The assumption is always that they are monsters who should be burned in the center of town. Rarely does anyone stand up and pubicly question the accuser. One need look no further than the McMartin Preschool case to see the way in which people's lives can be destroyed by unfounded claims of sexual abuse of children.
Yes, Bushrat, I have represented people accused of child rape. I have received hate mail for doing so. I consider it an honor to be able to take some of the hits that society would otherwise throw at those clients, and I look forward to an opportunity to protect more such clients from those in our society who would deprive them of their Constitutional rights.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Lana
Head Banana


Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 3,109
Loc: www.MycoSupply.com
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16615264 - 07/30/12 04:15 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Reopened.
Lana
Edited by Lana (07/30/12 12:59 PM)
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16619903 - 07/31/12 12:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I may have asked you this before but I don't think I have.
Is it true that people on probation can have their residence searched at anytime, without a search warrant?
If so, I'm asking how this applies to pretrial diversions, where there is no conviction...does this search-without-warrant rule still apply?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Being on probation doesn't automatically suspend a person's 4th amendment rights, but the SCOTUS has held that states can make a person submit to warrantless searches as a term of probation.
Probation is an alternative to incarceration, so the state can create terms of probation that limit a person's freedom. A term allowing warrantless searches in cases where "reasonable suspicion" exists has been upheld consistently. See US v. Knights and Griffin v. Wisconsin.
Similarly, a diversion is an alternative to conviction/incarceration so I see no reason the state couldn't place the same terms on the associated probationary period.
I do want to clear up one thing, however...being on probation doesn't mean that they can search you "at anytime". It means that they can search you or your house if they have "reasonable suspicion" to do so. The standard here is lower than the "probable cause" that would be required to get a warrant, but it is more than just a hunch based on a cops hard-on for you.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16620883 - 07/31/12 07:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So I'm indicted of a crime but I have too much money to qualify for a PD. However, I am unwilling to spend my meager life's savings buying a lawyer another boat and so I do not seek representation. I also refuse pro se.
My consistent and only response to any question is "I don't know because I don't have an legal representation to help me formulate a response."
How does the court proceed now? Am I not entitled to an attorney even if I refuse to pay for one? If I'm convicted, do I have recourse for appeal having no defense, not even pro se?
It seems like an incredibly fucked up system that I'm thrown to the mercy of a complex, almost incomprehensible legal machine and the only way to protest my innocence is to spend large sums of money an an expert in the workings of that machine.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 1
#16621412 - 07/31/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: So I'm indicted of a crime but I have too much money to qualify for a PD. However, I am unwilling to spend my meager life's savings buying a lawyer another boat and so I do not seek representation. I also refuse pro se.
My consistent and only response to any question is "I don't know because I don't have an legal representation to help me formulate a response."
How does the court proceed now? Am I not entitled to an attorney even if I refuse to pay for one? If I'm convicted, do I have recourse for appeal having no defense, not even pro se?
It seems like an incredibly fucked up system that I'm thrown to the mercy of a complex, almost incomprehensible legal machine and the only way to protest my innocence is to spend large sums of money an an expert in the workings of that machine.
You're correct...it is fucked...
You have a constitutional right to an appointed attorney if you can't afford one...If you can afford one, you have no such right. You also have no civil remedy to seek reimbursement for attorneys fees except in rare cases of proscutorial misconduct.
You end up defacto pro se...often times the court will appoint an attorney anyway in the interest of justice, but sometimes they will go after you for reimbursement after the case. And being pro se is not grounds for an appeal unless you were not given adequate warnings from the court about proceeding pro se.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16621743 - 07/31/12 11:34 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
And people ask me why I'm ashamed of my country, trash jury summonses, and refuse to vote any more.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
scarfaceofshrooms
I eat shrooms



Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 83
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#16621793 - 07/31/12 11:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just nuke this world already.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16621828 - 07/31/12 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid, you said the judge can jail you if he suspects you are lying about not remembering a password and that could happen. My point was that a non willful refusal to comply is not going to get any long jail term and i said this was assuming the contents of the encrypted section would put you away for a long time. We are assuming a major felony like killing someone or looking at dirty pictures. Even carrying it to an airport would not be proof you had the password and the encrypted file would not stop the rest of the computer from working. But if you bring a notebook with you to an airport with evidence on it that will put you away, you have made a blunder to start with since airports have heightened security measures.
Judge: we want the password to that hidden file on your computer
defendant: i'll gladly give it to you but i forgot it long ago.
Judge: i'll send you to jail
atty: Judge, my client is trying to comply but has not been able to open that file. It was an experiment in encryption and he lost the password.
What is the world's record for non willful failure to comply? The judge may "think" you know it but absent any evidence to support that idea, i can't see any serious time involved here.
Folks, lets argue politely here and keep on topic. We don't want to get the thread closed.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#16621945 - 07/31/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
My point was that a non willful refusal to comply is not going to get any long jail term
Where have I said otherwise?
and i said this was assuming the contents of the encrypted section would put you away for a long time
That is the assumption in this whole discussion, yes. We're not talking about your laptop containing proof of petty theft. Are you reading the same thread I'm reading?
In any case, while unlikely, the judge CAN in fact put you away for contempt for refusing to come up with a five cent receipt implicating you in petty theft of five cents. Unlikely, but it can happen and stranger things have.
Even carrying it to an airport would not be proof you had the password
Once again, are you reading the same thing I'm reading? We're not talking about proof. We're talking about whether or not a judge thinks you're full of shit. That's different than proof.
The judge may "think" you know it but absent any evidence to support that idea, i can't see any serious time involved here.
Then you don't understand contempt.
The judge is close to godlike and and "evidence to support that" is up to his opinion. There is due process but the bar is low. He just decides you're in contempt and chances are you will be. You don't even have to have done something demonstrably wrong. If the judge even thinks you're even being DISRESPECTFUL, he can lock you up and again with no time limit in principle.
You can be jailed for contempt if you so much as pick your nose or read a newspaper while waiting for your case to come up in his court room. This HAS happened for exactly reading a newspaper. Others have gone to jail because their cell phone rang during court.
Boswell found three people in contempt of court because they initially refused to say who had the ringing phones. -- Wave
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16621952 - 07/31/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Being on probation doesn't automatically suspend a person's 4th amendment rights, but the SCOTUS has held that states can make a person submit to warrantless searches as a term of probation.
Probation is an alternative to incarceration, so the state can create terms of probation that limit a person's freedom. A term allowing warrantless searches in cases where "reasonable suspicion" exists has been upheld consistently. See US v. Knights and Griffin v. Wisconsin.
Similarly, a diversion is an alternative to conviction/incarceration so I see no reason the state couldn't place the same terms on the associated probationary period.
I do want to clear up one thing, however...being on probation doesn't mean that they can search you "at anytime". It means that they can search you or your house if they have "reasonable suspicion" to do so. The standard here is lower than the "probable cause" that would be required to get a warrant, but it is more than just a hunch based on a cops hard-on for you.
Thanks for your advice. However, could you please elaborate on what exactly would constitute "reasonable suspicion" for them to search my residence?
I am guessing that whether or not my 4th Amendment rights are upheld depends on the state and jurisdiction of my residence, as well as the contract specific to my case.
Is there anyway that I could contact the department, or my supervision officer, and inquire about these aspects of my contract, without inciting reasonable suspicion by merely asking questions about this subject?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16621986 - 07/31/12 12:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Reasonable suspicion is articulable facts leading the officer to believe that evidence of criminal conduct would be found. An anonymous tip, you looking stoned, etc...very little is needed, but it must be something specific that the officer can point to.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Celestial Traveler,
If you've never watched them, take a look at these videos:
http://www.nevergetbusted.com/
The guy is an ex-narcotics cop who saw the light and stopped locking people up for having a plant in their pocket. He gets into a lot of the details of how probable cause and reasonable suspicion work in the real world of day to day police work.
Anyone who has anything to do with drugs on any level should watch them.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16622047 - 07/31/12 12:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Celestial Traveler,
If you've never watched them, take a look at these videos:
http://www.nevergetbusted.com/
The guy is an ex-narcotics cop who saw the light and stopped locking people up for having a plant in their pocket. He gets into a lot of the details of how probable cause and reasonable suspicion work in the real world of day to day police work.
Anyone who has anything to do with drugs on any level should watch them.
Haha yeah I know, I've seen almost all of his stuff on Youtube.
The main reason I am asking more about reasonable suspicion is because I honestly have no clue how my PO would obtain any "reasonable suspicion" that I was committing crimes in my residence from the way I conduct myself around him, other law enforcement people, and even just when I'm alone in general. In this case I am referring to the idea of "reasonable suspicion" that I derived from watching Barry's videos.
That is why I am wondering if maybe there is a broader definition of "reasonable suspicion" to draw from in cases like probation. Because from the way Barry describes reasonable suspicion, I see no way any law enforcement official would ever obtain any as grounds to search my place.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
I bought all his videos and sent a donation on top of that. You know the pigs got his kids taken away from him because they were pissed when he exposed their corruption?
Fucked up.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16622158 - 07/31/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yep fucked up world we live in. Can't really overstate it.
|
theonlysun81
Long Time Lurker, Recent Member


Registered: 05/11/12
Posts: 1,712
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
Would a non-traffic violation effect my ARD status in the state of Pennsylvania? The two events occured in different counties
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
I have no idea. I'm not licensed in PA, and I don't do DUIs.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #10
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627867 - 08/01/12 11:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Let’s say I live in a house with one other person who happens to deal some illegal substances periodically. How can I best legally isolate myself from him in the event he is busted, house raided, etc?
As of now everything he does and has is confined to his room.
I dont want to get screwed over if he does something stupid as I dont use, sell, possess, etc.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Just make sure that he keeps it all in his room and out of the common area...
Having said that, if the house is raided, you're probably gonna be arrested. It's unlikely that you'd be charged, and even more unlikely that you could ever be convicted...but an arrest is certainly likely. The cops aren't gonna know whose room is whose when they raid, so they're gonna want to sort it all out.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627951 - 08/01/12 12:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Are there steps that could reduce the chance of that? Keep the stuff in a safe, keep the room door locked, etc?
Or pretty much everybody gets arrested and they sort it out later?
And does it matter who is on the lease or not in that scenario?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
Anonymous #10
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627992 - 08/01/12 12:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
^^assuming I was arrested in that case is the best plan of action to keep my mouth shut or should I be saying I had no knowledge of what was going on?
Or should I be looking for an attorney?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16628517 - 08/01/12 01:55 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Doc_T said: Are there steps that could reduce the chance of that? Keep the stuff in a safe, keep the room door locked, etc?
Or pretty much everybody gets arrested and they sort it out later?
And does it matter who is on the lease or not in that scenario?
It depends on many things. Most likely no one will be arrested on the spot unless the police have an arrest warrant already. Usually, the arrest will come a day or two later. Having the stuff in a safe or in a locked room helps when it comes to avoiding charges, but the cops aren't going to know who has access to the room until they've questioned people.
In this situation, the best thing to do is get a lawyer and talk to the police with the lawyer present...most likely, it will end there.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16628534 - 08/01/12 02:00 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'd move out. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16628564 - 08/01/12 02:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
/agree
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16632725 - 08/02/12 08:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So I'm 18 and meet a hot girl online who tells me she's 16 but is actually 13. In my state it's legal for a 16 year old to have sex with an 18 year old. We hook up and fuck, then get caught. The girl then admits to the cops that she told me she was 16.
What happens to me? Am I responsible for checking the ID of everyone I fuck or does her admitted lie about her age get me off the hook?
My question is inspired by this.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 3
#16632894 - 08/02/12 09:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
For every element of a crime, there are two components....The guilty act (actus reus) and a mental state (mens rea). Both need to be present for every element in order to be convicted. Let me give a simple example.
For the crime of simple possession, the elements are:
1. Exercising dominion and control over 2. A scheduled substance
Both of those have to be proven, but there's more to the picture. For each element, the accused must also meet a particular state of mind...in this case, the mens rea for both elements is knowledge. He has to KNOW that he has dominion and control, and he has to KNOW what the controlled substance is.
So, if he has a bag of coke in his pocket but thinks it's baby powder...the second element isn't there because he lacks the requisite mens rea for that element.
There are several levels of mens rea possible for an element...they are:
1. Strict liability - Doesn't matter what state of mind he had 2. Negligence - Failure to take reasonable care 3. Recklessness - Consciously disregarding a substantial risk 4. Knowing - Has actual knowledge 5. Intent - Intends the prohibited result
These are listed in ascending order.
With that background, lets look at statutory rape. It varies from state to state, and some states have an age difference provision, but the basic elements are:
1. Coitus, 2. Accomplished on a minor,
The mens rea for each are typically:
1. Coitus - Intent...Must intend to engage in coitus. 2. Accomplished on a minor - Strict liability...Doesn't matter if you knew the victim was a minor...OR - Negligence...A reasonable person would have known it was a minor...OR - Recklessness...You had facts that pointed to her being a minor which you disregarded...OR - Knowledge...You actually KNEW she was a minor
So, under the facts of your hypo, it's gonna depend on what the mens rea requirement is for the second element. If it's knowlege, you're probably fine...if it's strict liability, you're fucked...anything in between...it could go either way.
A good portion of states are strict liability, and that seems to be the direction that we're headed. I'm sure it won't be too long before every state is strict liability.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
Edited by Enlil (08/02/12 09:44 AM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 3
#16632936 - 08/02/12 09:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Wow, thanks again. As usual a comprehensive and definitive answer. You keep this up and you're going to change my mind about lawyers.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16634070 - 08/02/12 01:57 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Good shit enlil.
|
Anonymous #9
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16643184 - 08/04/12 03:54 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If you live in an apartment, Do police still need a warrant to search? I mean, If they come by themselves straight to my door they would need one.. But most apartments are owned by the landlord, Can't they just go to him and tell them they had a tip for example that I'm growing and then go together to have a look inside my apt?
I think the landlord is allowed to come for inspections if he hears something bad is going on.. and I think he has a master key too. I don't really want to ask the landlord this though.. That would draw his attention.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: If you live in an apartment, Do police still need a warrant to search? I mean, If they come by themselves straight to my door they would need one.. But most apartments are owned by the landlord, Can't they just go to him and tell them they had a tip for example that I'm growing and then go together to have a look inside my apt?
A landlord can't give consent to search your apartment. It doesn't matter who owns the place. It only matters who has lawful possession of the place. A landlord has ownership but not possession of your apartment, therefore he cannot give consent to search.
Quote:
I think the landlord is allowed to come for inspections if he hears something bad is going on.. and I think he has a master key too. I don't really want to ask the landlord this though.. That would draw his attention.
In most states, the landlord is allowed to inspect, but he has to give notice beforehand except in cases of emergencies. In no state can a landlord simply walk into the apartment at any time without a good reason.
This might be a good place to talk about roommates as well. Roommates both have legal possession of a dwelling, so either can give consent to a search. There are, however, some details that make a big difference.
For instance, if facts exist that should alert the police that a particular area of the house is exclusively possessed by one roommate, the other roommate's consent would not be enough to justify the search. If a room is locked, for example, and the person giving consent does not have the key, then the cops can't just bust down the door to look in there.
Another key roommate point is about disagreeing roommates. If the cops some and one roommate consents to the search while the other one objects, the objecting roommate wins. The cops can't search under those circumstances. They can, however, come back later when the objecting roommate is not there and search with the consent of the other roommate.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
klimt
Stranger



Registered: 03/07/08
Posts: 461
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16644131 - 08/04/12 10:20 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Enlil:
I am located in Michigan.
When pulled over for a traffic citation and there are other passengers in the car, I've had police officers ask everyone in the vehicle for identification.
Do the passengers have a right to refuse to give a name and provide identification?
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: klimt]
#16644147 - 08/04/12 10:25 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
My friend got busted growing psilocybin mushrooms. It has been three months and still no charges have been filed. He is completely out of the game and never even mentions drugs now. Do lab results take that long to come back? He had guns too, so I know there is a mandatory minimum just for that. He doesn't seem like a snitch, as he was the biggest dealer in my group of friends. What could be taking them sooooo long to indict him?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: klimt]
#16644172 - 08/04/12 10:31 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
No, they have no Constitutional right to refuse to give their name. The consequences of not giving a name is going to depend on the state law. I don't know of any Michigan law requiring people to identifiy themselves, however. In the absence of such a law, the police can ask, but the people can simply not answer.
As stated in the OP, I'm not checking westlaw to see if MI has some precedent which requires them to identify, but it appears that they do not.
Here is a wiki page explaining these types of laws and the states that have them:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
joshisstoned said: My friend got busted growing psilocybin mushrooms. It has been three months and still no charges have been filed. He is completely out of the game and never even mentions drugs now. Do lab results take that long to come back? He had guns too, so I know there is a mandatory minimum just for that. He doesn't seem like a snitch, as he was the biggest dealer in my group of friends. What could be taking them sooooo long to indict him?
Is he in jail?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16644462 - 08/04/12 11:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
No. They came to serve a bench warrant for unpaid fines and he pulled up to his house with his paycheck cashed in his pocket. The cops grabbed ho's keys and despite him stating repeatedly that he did not want them to go in they just went in anyway. Either they are now watching him or are considering other factors (such as half the shrooms and dro walking out of the evidence room. Which is cool, because it kept him under the federal minimums. ) also, when they made the bust, they did not call for backup or don the space suits and evacuate the area. These cops had no idea what they were going to find. They said"we don't feel comfortable with this much money so were putting it in your trailer. They smelled marijuana smoked and they said they were searching the rest of the house. They left everything that could have made a cultivation case other than some fruiting grow bags. Pc, tubs, jars, even two petri dishes fully colonized. Left there. I also found his hard drug stash and an ounce of shrooms and a couple eights of dro just strewn throughout his house. Ho's lawyer says it sounds like he got set up, but they would have handled it way differently.
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
|
He's out because he paid off his fines and the bench warrant was released but criminal charges are pending awaiting lab results.but it's been two months?
Edited by joshisstoned (08/04/12 11:48 AM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
If he isn't in jail, there really isn't much of a rush for them to do anything. They have until the statute of limitations has run to charge him. Most likely, they are just going to test the stuff and then deal with it. It could easily be 6 months.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16644484 - 08/04/12 11:50 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It's six years in Ohio for this type of offense. :
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
They won't wait that long...If they don't charge him within a year, they probably won't.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16644499 - 08/04/12 11:53 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Damn, a year? He was thinking of filing a motion at the official 90day mark to get his guns back. It sounded retarded to me.....
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
He can certainly do that. I wouldn't advise it, but that's his right.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16644517 - 08/04/12 11:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I told him to chill with that shit. He's stubborn.
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
|
What is the essence of a "secret indictment"? Does that mean other people may be charged and they want to keep it secret? It wasn't in the paper or anything! I knew someone from a fest that got busted similarly, minus the cultivation and he was plastered all over the front page listing everything he was caut with. I'm just concerned because I was teaching my buddy guitar lessons almost every other day. He also didn't have a car so I would ride my motorcycle over and go gt him beer/smokes. I didn't think to ask him his business as he was always so chill and we came up in diapers together. I'm worried that if there was a snitch that I may be implicated in some type of conspiracy just for being around. I even took my family over there one night right before he got busted. If I knew he had a lab in his back room I would have never taken my family there. I taught him how to grow edibles, he eventually decided b+ cubes were mor profitable. I'm concerned I may be implicated and his lawyer is talking about "secret indictment". The prosecutor offered to knock it down to a felony three aggravated drug possession instead of the manufacturing felony 1. Which carries mandatory years. But h hasnt been charged or arrested for this run in With the mushrooms and an ounce of hydro. Ruined my peac of mind for the summer. bummer. He's a good dude that just got a little sloppy.
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
|
It's very unlikely an informant reporting that you were around frequently would be enough for them to come after you unless they could also demonstrate you knew about the illegal activity and actually did something to help him commit it. And I can't see how teaching him to grow edibles could reasonably be construed as helping him grow 'non-edibles'.
As far as I know all grand jury proceedings are sealed and secret and some places require criminal indictments to be brought by a grand jury so I would imagine that you're just getting the second-hand "telephone" version of that explanation.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
Edited by NizzyJones (08/05/12 01:34 PM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
As the above poster mentioned, all grand jury proceedings are secret...but when people use the term "secret indictment," they're talking about something a little different...these are indictments that have already charged someone, but the prosecutor/police have decided to keep under wraps for awhile. The normal course of events is that an indictment is handed down, and the prosecution starts immediately....a secret indictment doesn't generally work that way.
These are usually used for when they have a case against someone, but they don't want to tip their hand just yet for whatever reason...sometimes the defendant is out of the country, and they don't want to give him a reason not to return. Sometimes, the person is still being watched and they want to find out more about his associates...there are many reasons for such things.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#16648401 - 08/05/12 04:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks guys. He is just super fucked and I feel bad because he's the nicest dude you'd ever wNt to meet. Just not that street smart. I am a white collar guy who just so happens to not discriminate about a persons personal doings. I just hope that me being there frequently doesn't fuck me. As I get finger printed twicE a year for work. It was the sloppiest police work ever. Then my buddy tells me that they only reported half of what was there. And they didn't even find it all. They didn't wear masks or anything. They didn't call for backup. Just an old cop and a young cop serving a bench warrant and stumbled upon something they did not fully understand. They even wrote the report as ushroom spores, which are legal. Plus they pretty much went into his house without permission. Is having $1800 on you probable cause to search a house. Even when you are not in the house?
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
|
Quoting your post from the previous page: Quote:
No. They came to serve a bench warrant for unpaid fines and he pulled up to his house with his paycheck cashed in his pocket. The cops grabbed ho's keys and despite him stating repeatedly that he did not want them to go in they just went in anyway. Either they are now watching him or are considering other factors (such as half the shrooms and dro walking out of the evidence room. Which is cool, because it kept him under the federal minimums. ) also, when they made the bust, they did not call for backup or don the space suits and evacuate the area. These cops had no idea what they were going to find. They said"we don't feel comfortable with this much money so were putting it in your trailer. They smelled marijuana smoked and they said they were searching the rest of the house. They left everything that could have made a cultivation case other than some fruiting grow bags. Pc, tubs, jars, even two petri dishes fully colonized. Left there. I also found his hard drug stash and an ounce of shrooms and a couple eights of dro just strewn throughout his house. Ho's lawyer says it sounds like he got set up, but they would have handled it way differently.
I don't even know where to begin with how fucky that situation sounds. I guess depending on how they wrote the report they could try to get by with the supposed suspiciousness of someone with a warrant out for unpaid fines having that much cash. And since they allegedly smelled pot once in the house they may have smelt something on him or just independently arrived at the notion he looked high.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
Edited by NizzyJones (08/05/12 04:55 PM)
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16648633 - 08/05/12 05:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think they had probable cause to search the house, if all the statements made were true. Having cash is not cause and it was said the warrant was just for his arrest, not a search warrant. But there is often more to the story and he may have said things that would justify the home search. Time will tell.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
joshisstoned
Motorcycle Enthusiast


Registered: 05/24/09
Posts: 3,544
Loc: Ohio
Last seen: 9 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16649816 - 08/05/12 08:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah it will. I hope he doesn't get like five years. He's the best type of friend to have. He paid my car insurance one time when I was broke. He's the godfather to my kid for christs sake. He's still a moron.
|
ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16649990 - 08/05/12 09:05 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
How much do you typically charge for your services?
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
I don't. I currently work for the public defender's office. As such, I get paid a fixed annual salary by the state. The client's don't pay.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #9
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16653654 - 08/06/12 01:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Is it possible to get a lawyer like saul goodman in breaking bad?  But just not as expensive and good perhaps. I'm not really sure what the costs for lawyers are from cheap to expensive or anything or if theres some kind of deals you can make etc.
But it might be a really smart investment to go to someone like saul goodman so he can set you up with as safe illegal business as possible. Maybe he can even hook you up with some reliable and solid contacts. Tell you what to do and what not to do, until you can start moving your weight or growing, whatever.. clockwork safe.
Maybe hiring him sets you back some grand in beginning of your criminal career.. but it makes it a lot safer so you can earn it all back and keep earning with less chance of cops catching you and maybe even earn more money than you could without his help.
How would you find a lawyer like this? I think they have silence thing.. so that if you pay them for an interview you can tell them what shady stuff your up to and he can't tell the cops?
But it doesn't sound smart just asking random lawyers this and they decline because they don't want criminals.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Saul Goodman routinely does things for which he can be disbarred. You'd have a very hard time finding a lawyer like that, and if you do, you'd be paying him a whole lot of money...
Think of it this way...My license cost me 3 years of school plus over $150k in tuition...how much are you going to have to pay me to risk that license? It's gonna be a hell of a lot...
As far as your second part, you can ask a lawyer about options...but you probably shouldn't tell him that you actually plan on breaking the law in the future. That is the type of thing that he can (and sometimes must) report.
I would guess that there are very, very few lawyers out there that are overtly crooked like saul goodman, but every lawyer faces ethical challenges all of the time. It takes constant dilligence to ensure that you're doing the right thing...many attorneys fail at this, and sometimes in big ways. After awhile without getting caught, some attorneys become completely indifferent to certain ethical duties...you MIGHT be able to find one to fit your needs.
Caution: If you do find such an attorney, I wouldn't trust him too much...If he's willing to compromise ethical duties for money, he's probably also willing to compromise his duties of confidentiality and loyalty to save his own ass.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #9
|
|
Would a lawyer like this really be taking such a big risk to lose his license? The only risk I see is getting listened/recorded in on by a some electronic device.. And there's scramblers and stuff you can get against that I've heard somewhere. And then paying him in an untraceable way which isn't too hard either.
Would $10k be too little for that risk? As an upfront payment. Then perhaps another $10k depending on how much he can help you. Perhaps even a share of whatever your making depending how big this thing becomes. I mean, He can get more illegal clients than just one as well.
Just in theory.. If a lawyer would be interested in clients like me. Since you're a lawyer, How would you look for clients that you can make some illegal money with? and how would you handle the business relationship?
Not sure how the interview would have to go down.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: Would a lawyer like this really be taking such a big risk to lose his license? The only risk I see is getting listened/recorded in on by a some electronic device.. And there's scramblers and stuff you can get against that I've heard somewhere. And then paying him in an untraceable way which isn't too hard either.
The #1 thing I would be worried about is the client ratting me out. That is a very real risk, and it isn't worth it.
Quote:
Would $10k be too little for that risk? As an upfront payment. Then perhaps another $10k depending on how much he can help you. Perhaps even a share of whatever your making depending how big this thing becomes. I mean, He can get more illegal clients than just one as well.
More clients like this means more risk...$10k won't cover shit...I had a job offer for $160k right out of law school...
Quote:
Just in theory.. If a lawyer would be interested in clients like me. Since you're a lawyer, How would you look for clients that you can make some illegal money with? and how would you handle the business relationship?
Not sure how the interview would have to go down.
I have no idea...I wouldn't do it...You're not gonna find a highly competent lawyer that will. If he's any good, he's gonna pull down 200-400k a year...but you expect him to risk his license (and that pay) for you?
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
I don't think $10K would even cover the initial retainer for a serious criminal case.
One drug dealer I used to know told me that he had a half-million dollar retainer with his lawyer paid up front so he'd hit the ground running if anything happened. I never new him to lie.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16654401 - 08/06/12 03:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds like a reasonable figure, yeah.
Anon #9: Pretty much the only way you'll get your own Saul Goodman is if you know a lawyer who literally trusts you with his life. There aren't too many ways to make that kind of friend, and none I can think of envolve going out looking for a dirty lawyer.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
LastBreath
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/12
Posts: 472
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16657283 - 08/06/12 09:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey Enlil,
I have a question. When I was 18 I did some stupid things and was convicted for felony possession of a dagger, petty theft, and possession of marijuana, 1 felony and 2 misdemeanors. Recently I successfully went before a judge and had the felony reduced to a misdemeanor, withdrew my guilty plea and had all the charges dismissed. My question is does would I be able to legally own a firearm in the state of California now?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LastBreath]
#16658693 - 08/07/12 04:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
An expungement counts as not having a conviction...assuming there are no other felony charges, you should have no problem purchasing a firearm.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
LastBreath
Stranger


Registered: 05/26/12
Posts: 472
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16659380 - 08/07/12 08:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Thank you for your reply, I forgot to mention I have some convictions on my juvenile record, would it affect my ability to purchase a firearm if any of them were felonies? I can't remember if they were or not but let's just assume they were all misdemeanors, would that affect it?
Edited by LastBreath (08/07/12 09:02 AM)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LastBreath]
#16659396 - 08/07/12 09:00 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If you have no felonies, you should be fine.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16663455 - 08/07/12 09:24 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Do you think that weed should be legal?
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about drug prohibition, so I'm just going to give you my answer and a very short rationale...
I really don't want to see weed legalized, but I don't think that possession of it should be a crime.
This is because I do believe that weed is harmful and addictive. It might not be as harmful as many things that are currently legal, but that isn't the issue to me. For me, the issue is whether legalization would make society better or worse. I can't say that it would make it significantly worse, but I don't see how it would make it better aside from whatever moral benefit we recieve by being a bit more "free" of a society.
Changing our current system of drug prohiition, on the other hand, would make our society decidedly better. If I were king (which might be a few years down the road), I would set up a system where no one goes to jail for using drugs. The money currently spent on incarceration would be much better spent on education and treatment.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16665298 - 08/08/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: I don't want this thread to turn into a debate about drug prohibition, so I'm just going to give you my answer and a very short rationale...
I really don't want to see weed legalized, but I don't think that possession of it should be a crime.
This is because I do believe that weed is harmful and addictive. It might not be as harmful as many things that are currently legal, but that isn't the issue to me. For me, the issue is whether legalization would make society better or worse. I can't say that it would make it significantly worse, but I don't see how it would make it better aside from whatever moral benefit we recieve by being a bit more "free" of a society.
Changing our current system of drug prohiition, on the other hand, would make our society decidedly better. If I were king (which might be a few years down the road), I would set up a system where no one goes to jail for using drugs. The money currently spent on incarceration would be much better spent on education and treatment.
In your view, do you still believe people who are caught with drugs should have criminal records and be forced to pay thousands of dollars in fines to the state? I know you didn't want this to turn into a drug legalization debate but this is all I have to ask.
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
|
What? He's just said "I don't think that possession of it should be a crime" in the post you're quoting.
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
No. And this is why I cautioned about the possible derailing of the thread...For many pro-legalization people, it is a false dichotomy between legalization and the current system of prohibition. I don't want either of those choices, and I don't see any reason why it has to be one or the other.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16665779 - 08/08/12 12:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Back on-topic:
So every time I get a jury summons, it goes unopened straight into the trash. Ironically, I consider it my civic duty as an American citizen to serve on a jury, and given the opportunity, I would volunteer to serve. But I consider it the height of hypocrisy and unamericanism for my country to compel me to serve under penalty of law, so I don't on principle.
What kind of trouble can I get into? If asked, I'll just say that I didn't receive any such notice in the mail that I'm aware of, and since they're not sent with any kind of registration or signature requirement, it's pretty hard to refute me. But can I still get in trouble?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16665855 - 08/08/12 01:29 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Like anything else, the burden is on them to prove that you willfully failed to respond...They can prove that they sent notices. They can probably even prove beyond a reasonable doubt that at least one of those notices got to your mailbox. Proving that you saw one and read it...that's another story.
We get back to the mens rea issue...you clearly committed the actus reus here, but they have to prove that you had knowledge of the notice. That's a bit harder, and it doesn't happen often. In some places, however, courts routinely send second or third notices by certified mail. This generally is only in places that have a particularly small jury pool.
So, you're unlikely to be prosecuted for it, and even less likely to be convicted...but you should still be responding, nonetheless. As you said, it's a civic duty.
Choosing not to do the right thing simply because someone tries to force you is pretty piss-poor reasoning. It doesn't matter if you make choices to please your master or make the opposite choice to displease him...you're still dancing to his tune.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16665984 - 08/08/12 01:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
In some places, however, courts routinely send second or third notices by certified mail.
Well, that wouldn't work either. I don't open the door unless I'm expecting someone. I don't care who it is or how much they knock. So they'd never get my signature on process service, let alone a measly certified envelope.
And I'm in Miami. They don't need me that badly so I figure I'm safe from my predator government at least in this context.
but you should still be responding, nonetheless. As you said, it's a civic duty
Nope, not under threat of force, sorry. Principle trumps duty. As long as I'm being threatened, the government can suck my dick. I'm not cooperating if I can find a way not to. And I found a way not to.
It's especially insulting that the lawyers and judges are making six figure salaries while the jurors get barely enough to pay for the gas to get there and back home.
But like I said, it's about principle. I don't care about the money issue. I'm just insulted by it.
Choosing not to do the right thing simply because someone tries to force you is pretty piss-poor reasoning
You're entitled to your opinion. Me? I think caving in to a threat of violence from a government I don't trust and deeply despise in order to participate in an unfair legal system that calls an obese, high-school drop out woman with six kids living in a trailer and chain smoking cigarettes paid for with welfare checks a "jury of my peers" is a far worse travesty. That goes double when that same system that pays lip-service to freedom is prepared to lock me in a government cage for having an illegal plant in my pocket. And triple when that system is prepared to grind me up, taking my life's savings in the form of legal fees I would have to spend to defend myself because it refuses to provide me a PD on grounds that I have too much money, even though it struts around proclaiming that everyone is entitled to a defense (but failing to mention that I'm not entitled to keep my retirement savings because I have to pay for it).
But let me tell you how I really feel...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
joemolloy
DMT is Bullshit


Registered: 04/12/09
Posts: 6,525
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16666001 - 08/08/12 02:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Enlin, lots of people buy mimosa hostilis root bark which they extract DMT from and MHRB vendors operate openly on the internet. Is it a legal gray area in the law or is this just something that the police don't care about right now? If a sympathetic judge gave a search warrant to bust a vendor, could they get search warrants for customers based on vendor records? How far back in time could they go if they did?
-------------------- Don't PM me with bullshit. I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: joemolloy]
#16666189 - 08/08/12 02:37 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know much about it. I've never seen anyone prosecuted for possession of dmt or root bark. I don't even know if possession of the root bark is a crime federally or in any state...
As far as searching customer houses based solely on orders, it would have to be very recent orders. Probable cause goes stale pretty quickly. I'm not convinced that even an order from the same day would be enough, in itself, to search a house.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16668578 - 08/08/12 10:53 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Let me ask you a lemma.
Say I somehow got myself snagged into a juror interview despite my evasive tendencies. How can I best ensure I'll be kicked out by peremptory challenge?
If I mention that I know what jury nullification is and I'm not afraid to use it, is that likely to scare the lawyers into letting me off the hook? If not, what would?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16669599 - 08/09/12 05:13 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The best way to up your odds of being stricken is to exhibit:
1. a strong desire to be on the jury 2. a knowledge and appreciation of the law 3. a strong personality. 4. strong opinions about legal matters.
The best way to up your odds of being seated as a juror is to exhibit:
1. the ability to listen to the question and answer the question asked. 2. above-average intelligence. 3. independence in your decision making.
Bringing up jury nullification and indicating a willingness to use it counts as 2 and 4 of the first list.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #1
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16670776 - 08/09/12 11:52 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
What is your opinion on the Silk Road and TOR, in general? Do you for-see any way the people that run TSR getting busted?
This was in the Shroomery News Forum: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16659132
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16670791 - 08/09/12 11:57 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Let's say that I am caught with a bong that has ONLY been used to smoke salvia, ever. And salvia is legal in my state.
Does this count as illegal drug paraphernalia and am I subject to penalties for possessing it, even if it has never been used to smoke ILLEGAL drugs?
Also if there is salvia residue on the bowl, is there anyway I can argue or prove that this is not marijuana residue?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
The burden is on the state to prove that it's drug paraphernalia. This means they have to prove that this particular bong is intended to be used for ingesting illegal substances...if they can't prove that, then you're fine.
You don't have to prove what the substance is...that is the state's burden.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: What is your opinion on the Silk Road and TOR, in general? Do you for-see any way the people that run TSR getting busted?
This was in the Shroomery News Forum: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16659132
The devil is in the details in this sort of thing, and I am not familiar with the silk road at all...so I really can't give you any meaningful answer.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16671260 - 08/09/12 01:38 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: The burden is on the state to prove that it's drug paraphernalia. This means they have to prove that this particular bong is intended to be used for ingesting illegal substances...if they can't prove that, then you're fine.
You don't have to prove what the substance is...that is the state's burden.
Sorry to keep asking questions, but how exactly does that work?
I have never heard of anyone getting caught with a bong or "water pipe" and not getting charged with drug paraphernalia on those grounds before.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Of course they're gonna be charged.
A conviction is another thing altogether.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16671280 - 08/09/12 01:42 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
True but the bail and lawyer fees are still a pain in the ass.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Yes, and this is one of the reasons that charges like this are almost always plead out.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16671360 - 08/09/12 01:54 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hypothetically speaking, if this were to happen...
Could I not tell the officers when I was arrested that I wanted to exercise my right to a speedy trial, and then declare to the judge that I wished to either defend myself or use a public attorney, free of cost to me?
The speedy trial part would be so that I would get the BS over with and not spend months in jail while waiting for a trial.
Then just go to trial with the burden of proof on the state to prove it was used for illegal drugs.
Once they couldn't provide that proof, I beat the charges and get on with my life.
Is this a realistic scenario?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16672456 - 08/09/12 05:32 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
This question is more on the civil side of things, but you can probably give a meaningful answer.
I'm being sued for something, let's say a charged off credit card or unsecured loan or something like that. The collector sends someone to my home to serve process, but I'm not there and try as they might, they never find me. The best they can do is regular mail or tape the paperwork to my front door. Certified mail won't work because I summarily refuse all certified mail.
Question 1: Court day comes and I fail to appear. Do I lose by default? If so, do I have recourse in claiming I didn't know about the court date?
Question 2: What if my roommate is home and accepts the paperwork for me? Can I claim he never told me?
Question 3: What if the roommate is very elderly (90ish) and dies a few weeks after the papers were served to him? I claim I never got the papers from absent-minded old guy.
I have a feeling the answer is gonna run along the lines of "depends on the jurisdiction". I'm in Florida, if that helps.
Thanks as always for this thread and all your time.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
You've pretty much got it, but the police aren't the people to tell about a speedy trial.
In addition, you have to meet income requirements to be eligible for a public defender.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist

Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,392
Last seen: 2 days, 20 hours
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16672558 - 08/09/12 06:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I have heard that if your roommate accepts the paperwork but never tells you about it, you are out of luck.
Enlil, no one except my friends knows my current address and I have never gotten any mail there, I use a po box for everything. What happens if someone tries to sue me?
|
Anonymous #11
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16672567 - 08/09/12 06:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
If my house was raided (there is no reason for it to be that I can tell - I keep my mouth shut and everything is tight. I purchase most of my supplies in cash), the police would find marijuana growing, <10 plants flowering and the same number of clones and a few mothers... lets say it totals to 20 if that matters. They would find DMT being extracted, maybe 2g of actual DMT. They would find a big ol' monotub of cubes growing.
I live in NZ (I understand that the law here is going to be somewhat different to the law you've studied) and would like to know what would happen if I fucked up and was searched? I have no criminal record, I was hoping I would get off with a slap on the wrist as it's my first offense... But I believe I've covered production of A, B and C class drugs there so I'm not so sure they'll be so lenient.
Is there something I can do to easily reduce the consequences of being caught here? Would doing just 2 instead of 3 be the difference between a slap on the wrist and a real sentence, do you think?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16672572 - 08/09/12 06:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: This question is more on the civil side of things, but you can probably give a meaningful answer.
I'm being sued for something, let's say a charged off credit card or unsecured loan or something like that. The collector sends someone to my home to serve process, but I'm not there and try as they might, they never find me. The best they can do is regular mail or tape the paperwork to my front door. Certified mail won't work because I summarily refuse all certified mail.
Question 1: Court day comes and I fail to appear. Do I lose by default? If so, do I have recourse in claiming I didn't know about the court date?
Some. You can move to set aside the default and default judgment under the grounds of lack of service...but you're better off not letting it get this far. When you have actual notice, you should move to quash service right off the bat. The court lacks personal jurisdiction over you until you're properly served, so you should challenge that as soon as possible.
They can also effect service by "due dilligence"..this is a last resort procedure where they attach process to your door and mail it to you...it's sometimes called "nail and mail."
Quote:
Question 2: What if my roommate is home and accepts the paperwork for me? Can I claim he never told me?
This is called "substitute service" and it is legal if personal service fails a few times. If he doesn't tell you, you have a suit against him.
Quote:
Question 3: What if the roommate is very elderly (90ish) and dies a few weeks after the papers were served to him? I claim I never got the papers from absent-minded old guy.
This might work...but see the answer to #1...
none of these will get you out of the suit completely...eventually, they will get you served legally.
If service fails repeatedly, a judge can order that service be effected by publishing in a newspaper...there's always a way.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16673235 - 08/09/12 08:04 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: You've pretty much got it, but the police aren't the people to tell about a speedy trial.
In addition, you have to meet income requirements to be eligible for a public defender.
Even then, I could probably pretty much defend myself though since the trial would be so easy I'm guessing...
And who would I take the "speedy trial" too?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
A man who represents himself has a fool for a client.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
NizzyJones
Fight evil with funk



Registered: 08/22/06
Posts: 2,082
Loc: Somewhere North of Normal
Last seen: 2 years, 12 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16673281 - 08/09/12 08:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- Wildflower seed on the sand and stone, may the four winds blow you safely home Curriculum vapidum (dry herb vapes)
|
LySergic D
Drink all day and rock all night


Registered: 10/20/11
Posts: 7,583
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: NizzyJones]
#16673372 - 08/09/12 08:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Im hoping to be getting back my car from the officers who seized it next week. As im sure you remember i was recently picked up on three felony charges and a misdemeanor of Delivery/Manufacture of mushrooms. What are the chances of something like a tracking device being somewhere on my car when i get it back. According to my lawyer, the narcotics team in my area are not real happy with me on account i wouldn't work for them.
--------------------
Broken heart don't feel so bad You ain't got half of what you thought you had Rock you baby to and fro Not too fast and not too slow
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16674115 - 08/09/12 10:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: A man who represents himself has a fool for a client.
But couldn't I just tell them that the paraphernalia was not for illegal substances, and demand that they do a lab test on the residue to prove otherwise?
What would be wrong with that?
Obviously I'm no expert and this may be a stupid question but I am just wondering.
From time to time I buy cheap, shitty pipes to smoke salvia (legal in my state) and use them for no other reason. So this information might come in handy some day.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said: I have heard that if your roommate accepts the paperwork but never tells you about it, you are out of luck.
Enlil, no one except my friends knows my current address and I have never gotten any mail there, I use a po box for everything. What happens if someone tries to sue me?
They're gonna have to serve you at your place of business. Or find where you live by other means...People who are hard to find are hard to sue for this reason...
It took me months to find one guy's real name...but eventually, I did.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: If my house was raided (there is no reason for it to be that I can tell - I keep my mouth shut and everything is tight. I purchase most of my supplies in cash), the police would find marijuana growing, <10 plants flowering and the same number of clones and a few mothers... lets say it totals to 20 if that matters. They would find DMT being extracted, maybe 2g of actual DMT. They would find a big ol' monotub of cubes growing.
I live in NZ (I understand that the law here is going to be somewhat different to the law you've studied) and would like to know what would happen if I fucked up and was searched? I have no criminal record, I was hoping I would get off with a slap on the wrist as it's my first offense... But I believe I've covered production of A, B and C class drugs there so I'm not so sure they'll be so lenient.
Is there something I can do to easily reduce the consequences of being caught here? Would doing just 2 instead of 3 be the difference between a slap on the wrist and a real sentence, do you think?
Any way you look at it, they're gonna see that you have a big manufacturing operation. While I don't know the specifics of NZ law, I'm pretty sure you're going to be looking at significant charges whether you're producing 2 or three substances. In your situation, you shouldn't be managing consequences as much as managing risk of being caught in the first place.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LySergic D]
#16675007 - 08/10/12 04:16 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
LySergic D said: Im hoping to be getting back my car from the officers who seized it next week. As im sure you remember i was recently picked up on three felony charges and a misdemeanor of Delivery/Manufacture of mushrooms. What are the chances of something like a tracking device being somewhere on my car when i get it back. According to my lawyer, the narcotics team in my area are not real happy with me on account i wouldn't work for them.
Very low. If you're really worried, just look for it. It would be someplace that the cops could retrieve easily...usually under the car attached to the back of the bumper or something like that.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #11
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16675054 - 08/10/12 05:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It's all personal use (seriously and honestly, it is) but I understand they won't see it that way.
Thanks for the advice man. Keep on rockin' and don't let them OTD fags get you down
|
Anonymous #12
|
|
Enlil, first thanks for this thread, its really informative and I think we all appreciate it.
I have a question - I have a lot of drugs at my residence. I don't deal or anything, I just prefer to buy in bulk.
However if my place was ever raided I highly doubt I could plead the personal use defence as they would not believe it. My thoughts were to mitigate this risk by splitting up some of the supply. I keep everything in firesafe lock boxes. Would renting a storage unit, storing the majority of it there with other storage stuff (I have boxes of non-drug stuff that I could store) be a good idea?
Its not like I expect my place to be raided. I live in an apartment in a really nice neighborhood and only smoke weed in the farthest room with the door shut. Never have parties at my place, etc. Still, I don't like risk.
Question #2: I order drugs to my place via. the mail. For example, an oz of ketamine split into half ounces. I have it sent to a PO box that is registered to me, but the address is a previous one I had (so not the current one I live at). Still since its my drivers license on the PO box its not like they wouldn't know who I was.
My question then is if they opened a package and found it, would that be grounds for a search warrant? Its not like they are going to sit at the PO box with a cop day after day hoping I will show up. How would they prove I ordered it?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
I order drugs to my place via. the mail.
FYI, in case you're not aware, you should never check a USPS DCN on their web site using TOR. I've heard reliable reports that if you do, it flags the package for greater scrutiny and in some cases can trigger in inspector to open it.
Best to avoid pinging the DCN unless the package goes missing, and then to do it from a library or your laptop through an open WiFi in the clear (not through TOR).
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Anonymous #12
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16675655 - 08/10/12 09:44 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: I order drugs to my place via. the mail.
FYI, in case you're not aware, you should never check a USPS DCN on their web site using TOR. I've heard reliable reports that if you do, it flags the package for greater scrutiny and in some cases can trigger in inspector to open it.
Best to avoid pinging the DCN unless the package goes missing, and then to do it from a library or your laptop through an open WiFi in the clear (not through TOR).
I never get items through registered / tracked mail. Everything is letterpost. I insist on this.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Quote:
Anonymous said: Enlil, first thanks for this thread, its really informative and I think we all appreciate it.
I have a question - I have a lot of drugs at my residence. I don't deal or anything, I just prefer to buy in bulk.
However if my place was ever raided I highly doubt I could plead the personal use defence as they would not believe it. My thoughts were to mitigate this risk by splitting up some of the supply. I keep everything in firesafe lock boxes. Would renting a storage unit, storing the majority of it there with other storage stuff (I have boxes of non-drug stuff that I could store) be a good idea?
Its not like I expect my place to be raided. I live in an apartment in a really nice neighborhood and only smoke weed in the farthest room with the door shut. Never have parties at my place, etc. Still, I don't like risk.
Your residence is the most highly protected place from a 4th amendment standpoint. The probable cause needed to get a warrant to search a storage place is very little...if they need a warrant at all.
Quote:
Question #2: I order drugs to my place via. the mail. For example, an oz of ketamine split into half ounces. I have it sent to a PO box that is registered to me, but the address is a previous one I had (so not the current one I live at). Still since its my drivers license on the PO box its not like they wouldn't know who I was.
My question then is if they opened a package and found it, would that be grounds for a search warrant? Its not like they are going to sit at the PO box with a cop day after day hoping I will show up. How would they prove I ordered it?
It showing up at the PO box probably isn't enough for a warrant, but it's enough for them to look more closely at you...if they find more, they might get a warrant eventually.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16694513 - 08/13/12 05:03 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
> FYI, in case you're not aware, you should never check a USPS DCN on their web site using TOR.
I've got a package coming to me from the US. As soon as I get the tracking number, I will start nailing it with TOR and report back if the package was opened / inspected. I'll do the same thing next time I send something to the US, but that happens a lot less frequently.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Seuss]
#16695531 - 08/13/12 08:01 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Seuss said: > FYI, in case you're not aware, you should never check a USPS DCN on their web site using TOR.
I've got a package coming to me from the US. As soon as I get the tracking number, I will start nailing it with TOR and report back if the package was opened / inspected. I'll do the same thing next time I send something to the US, but that happens a lot less frequently.
Awesome Seuss- some shroomery research.
Enlil: I had a general question regarding securing objects (say small amounts of drugs, like a baggy of marijuana) against search in a motor vehicle to the extent possible. A big problem besides obvious probable cause things would seem to be terry stops- I read a case where some guy was arrested or detained, handcuffed, and in the back of a cruzer, and the cop opened a locked trunk, found a gun, and the search was ruled legal via Terry as an officer safety issue- I guess the guy could have broken the handcuffs, broken the cruzer door, broken open the trunk, got the gun, and shot the officer. This was not a search incident to arrest or inventory or anything like that.
My thoughts, when people asked me, was that a small locked container that you don't physically have the ability to open and which is too small to easily hold a gun could be placed in a trunk and provide reasonable protection against warantless searches. What do you think?
If you couldn't physically open the box at the time, couldn't even access it without leaving the car, and there was no warrant, it would seem hard to justify doing anything other than impounding the car/box and applying for a warrant. What do you think?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
#16695576 - 08/13/12 08:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
As far as I know, the SCOTUS has never upheld a terry frisk of a locked trunk...but that could change at any time...
Keep in mind that terry isn't limited to guns...if the container is small enough that it couldn't hold a weapon of any kind..then it probably can't be broken open for a terry frisk.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
johnm214


Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16696004 - 08/13/12 09:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: As far as I know, the SCOTUS has never upheld a terry frisk of a locked trunk...but that could change at any time...
Keep in mind that terry isn't limited to guns...if the container is small enough that it couldn't hold a weapon of any kind..then it probably can't be broken open for a terry frisk.
Ok, I was mistaken, I conflated my idea (locked small container in locked trunk) with the actual case.
The case was as described, but with the gun in a locked glove box and the defendant inside a cruiser.
Quote:
More problematic is whether there is reason to believe that a suspect "may gain immediate control" of a weapon in a locked glove box, particularly when the suspect is in the patrol car, detained by a police officer, while another officer looks in the glove box of the suspect's car....
If Defendant had broken away from the officers, obtaining a gun from inside the glove box would have taken only a moment more than obtaining a gun from anywhere else within the passenger compartment. To be sure, the tasks of getting a key and unlocking the glove box would delay Defendant somewhat; but a suspect who is able to break free of officers detaining him could also seize the keys, and the suspect may have another means of entry to the glove box, such as a key that would not be detected during a proper frisk or a weapons search of the vehicle. Furthermore, Defendant would have access to the gun at the conclusion of the encounter, assuming that he was only issued a citation and not arrested.
http://ca10.washburnlaw.edu/cases/2004/03/03-5115.htm
What do you think of this rational to allow the search of the glove box? Seems pretty absurd to me. It seems this is how these searches expand to ridiculous lengths: a general exception to warrant requirements is made: danger to the officer. Then it gets ratcheted up case by case till suddenly a guy in police custody needs to have his car's locked glove box searched because he might break out of the police car, steal the keys to the glovebox from the police, open the door, unlock the glove box, open the box, take out the gun, and then threaten the cops.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
#16697274 - 08/14/12 05:12 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
That's how these things go. A right is defined, and then the contours of that right are determined over time by different cases. Terry doctrine, like many legal doctrines, is in flux.
Having said that, I don't believe the case you link was heard by the SCOTUS, and I am not convinced that it would be upheld at that level. That case is only binding in the tenth circuit at this point...assuming that it hasn't been overturned by subsequent case law.
It is a bit of a stretch of Terry, but only because the glove box was locked. At some point, the SCOTUS will draw a line beyond which no terry frisk can cross...Where that line will be, I cannot say.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #13
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16707516 - 08/16/12 12:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
How does Western Union work in terms of receiving money for illegal sales? Do they track and investigate on it frequently?
Lets say someone receives money from someone through Western Union and the money is for a drug sale. (Can be well over $500) Would they ask for ID? If suspicious can they get the feds involved and investigate the case?
Plus what if the person receiving the money gets raided and has nothing illegal in the house? Can he/she be persecuted for having received the money?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Western union has no idea what the money is for. They don't investigate anything except fraudulent transfer of funds.
As far as what they report, they have to report under the anti-money-laundering act like everyone else does if the transaction appears suspicious or is over the threshold amount.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16709712 - 08/16/12 01:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If the wu transaction is $1000 or more they are required to ask for certain forms of id. They are also alert for "structuring" to avoid the requirement like for instance $600 today and $700 tomorrow. If the amount is over $10,000 then they need even more id etc plus a form filled out to be sent to govt. The $1000 thing works across the board at a lot of places like getting a money order from walmart or elsewhere.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Anonymous #13
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16709980 - 08/16/12 02:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Isn't there a "waive ID" option? Does that not apply when recieving over $1000?
|
fuckmylife12
Stranger

Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 222
Last seen: 8 years, 5 months
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16709990 - 08/16/12 02:34 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Mod Edit: This is not OTD.
Edited by Diploid (08/16/12 02:41 PM)
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney *DELETED* [Re: fuckmylife12]
#16710015 - 08/16/12 02:37 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Post deleted by Doc_TReason for deletion: x
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
|