|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16619903 - 07/31/12 12:02 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I may have asked you this before but I don't think I have.
Is it true that people on probation can have their residence searched at anytime, without a search warrant?
If so, I'm asking how this applies to pretrial diversions, where there is no conviction...does this search-without-warrant rule still apply?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Being on probation doesn't automatically suspend a person's 4th amendment rights, but the SCOTUS has held that states can make a person submit to warrantless searches as a term of probation.
Probation is an alternative to incarceration, so the state can create terms of probation that limit a person's freedom. A term allowing warrantless searches in cases where "reasonable suspicion" exists has been upheld consistently. See US v. Knights and Griffin v. Wisconsin.
Similarly, a diversion is an alternative to conviction/incarceration so I see no reason the state couldn't place the same terms on the associated probationary period.
I do want to clear up one thing, however...being on probation doesn't mean that they can search you "at anytime". It means that they can search you or your house if they have "reasonable suspicion" to do so. The standard here is lower than the "probable cause" that would be required to get a warrant, but it is more than just a hunch based on a cops hard-on for you.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16620883 - 07/31/12 07:39 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So I'm indicted of a crime but I have too much money to qualify for a PD. However, I am unwilling to spend my meager life's savings buying a lawyer another boat and so I do not seek representation. I also refuse pro se.
My consistent and only response to any question is "I don't know because I don't have an legal representation to help me formulate a response."
How does the court proceed now? Am I not entitled to an attorney even if I refuse to pay for one? If I'm convicted, do I have recourse for appeal having no defense, not even pro se?
It seems like an incredibly fucked up system that I'm thrown to the mercy of a complex, almost incomprehensible legal machine and the only way to protest my innocence is to spend large sums of money an an expert in the workings of that machine.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 1
#16621412 - 07/31/12 10:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: So I'm indicted of a crime but I have too much money to qualify for a PD. However, I am unwilling to spend my meager life's savings buying a lawyer another boat and so I do not seek representation. I also refuse pro se.
My consistent and only response to any question is "I don't know because I don't have an legal representation to help me formulate a response."
How does the court proceed now? Am I not entitled to an attorney even if I refuse to pay for one? If I'm convicted, do I have recourse for appeal having no defense, not even pro se?
It seems like an incredibly fucked up system that I'm thrown to the mercy of a complex, almost incomprehensible legal machine and the only way to protest my innocence is to spend large sums of money an an expert in the workings of that machine.
You're correct...it is fucked...
You have a constitutional right to an appointed attorney if you can't afford one...If you can afford one, you have no such right. You also have no civil remedy to seek reimbursement for attorneys fees except in rare cases of proscutorial misconduct.
You end up defacto pro se...often times the court will appoint an attorney anyway in the interest of justice, but sometimes they will go after you for reimbursement after the case. And being pro se is not grounds for an appeal unless you were not given adequate warnings from the court about proceeding pro se.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16621743 - 07/31/12 11:34 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
And people ask me why I'm ashamed of my country, trash jury summonses, and refuse to vote any more.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
scarfaceofshrooms
I eat shrooms



Registered: 07/24/12
Posts: 83
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] 1
#16621793 - 07/31/12 11:43 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just nuke this world already.
|
Stonehenge
Alt Center


Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16621828 - 07/31/12 11:48 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Diploid, you said the judge can jail you if he suspects you are lying about not remembering a password and that could happen. My point was that a non willful refusal to comply is not going to get any long jail term and i said this was assuming the contents of the encrypted section would put you away for a long time. We are assuming a major felony like killing someone or looking at dirty pictures. Even carrying it to an airport would not be proof you had the password and the encrypted file would not stop the rest of the computer from working. But if you bring a notebook with you to an airport with evidence on it that will put you away, you have made a blunder to start with since airports have heightened security measures.
Judge: we want the password to that hidden file on your computer
defendant: i'll gladly give it to you but i forgot it long ago.
Judge: i'll send you to jail
atty: Judge, my client is trying to comply but has not been able to open that file. It was an experiment in encryption and he lost the password.
What is the world's record for non willful failure to comply? The judge may "think" you know it but absent any evidence to support that idea, i can't see any serious time involved here.
Folks, lets argue politely here and keep on topic. We don't want to get the thread closed.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] 1
#16621945 - 07/31/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
My point was that a non willful refusal to comply is not going to get any long jail term
Where have I said otherwise?
and i said this was assuming the contents of the encrypted section would put you away for a long time
That is the assumption in this whole discussion, yes. We're not talking about your laptop containing proof of petty theft. Are you reading the same thread I'm reading?
In any case, while unlikely, the judge CAN in fact put you away for contempt for refusing to come up with a five cent receipt implicating you in petty theft of five cents. Unlikely, but it can happen and stranger things have.
Even carrying it to an airport would not be proof you had the password
Once again, are you reading the same thing I'm reading? We're not talking about proof. We're talking about whether or not a judge thinks you're full of shit. That's different than proof.
The judge may "think" you know it but absent any evidence to support that idea, i can't see any serious time involved here.
Then you don't understand contempt.
The judge is close to godlike and and "evidence to support that" is up to his opinion. There is due process but the bar is low. He just decides you're in contempt and chances are you will be. You don't even have to have done something demonstrably wrong. If the judge even thinks you're even being DISRESPECTFUL, he can lock you up and again with no time limit in principle.
You can be jailed for contempt if you so much as pick your nose or read a newspaper while waiting for your case to come up in his court room. This HAS happened for exactly reading a newspaper. Others have gone to jail because their cell phone rang during court.
Boswell found three people in contempt of court because they initially refused to say who had the ringing phones. -- Wave
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16621952 - 07/31/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Enlil said: Being on probation doesn't automatically suspend a person's 4th amendment rights, but the SCOTUS has held that states can make a person submit to warrantless searches as a term of probation.
Probation is an alternative to incarceration, so the state can create terms of probation that limit a person's freedom. A term allowing warrantless searches in cases where "reasonable suspicion" exists has been upheld consistently. See US v. Knights and Griffin v. Wisconsin.
Similarly, a diversion is an alternative to conviction/incarceration so I see no reason the state couldn't place the same terms on the associated probationary period.
I do want to clear up one thing, however...being on probation doesn't mean that they can search you "at anytime". It means that they can search you or your house if they have "reasonable suspicion" to do so. The standard here is lower than the "probable cause" that would be required to get a warrant, but it is more than just a hunch based on a cops hard-on for you.
Thanks for your advice. However, could you please elaborate on what exactly would constitute "reasonable suspicion" for them to search my residence?
I am guessing that whether or not my 4th Amendment rights are upheld depends on the state and jurisdiction of my residence, as well as the contract specific to my case.
Is there anyway that I could contact the department, or my supervision officer, and inquire about these aspects of my contract, without inciting reasonable suspicion by merely asking questions about this subject?
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16621986 - 07/31/12 12:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Reasonable suspicion is articulable facts leading the officer to believe that evidence of criminal conduct would be found. An anonymous tip, you looking stoned, etc...very little is needed, but it must be something specific that the officer can point to.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Celestial Traveler,
If you've never watched them, take a look at these videos:
http://www.nevergetbusted.com/
The guy is an ex-narcotics cop who saw the light and stopped locking people up for having a plant in their pocket. He gets into a lot of the details of how probable cause and reasonable suspicion work in the real world of day to day police work.
Anyone who has anything to do with drugs on any level should watch them.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16622047 - 07/31/12 12:26 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Celestial Traveler,
If you've never watched them, take a look at these videos:
http://www.nevergetbusted.com/
The guy is an ex-narcotics cop who saw the light and stopped locking people up for having a plant in their pocket. He gets into a lot of the details of how probable cause and reasonable suspicion work in the real world of day to day police work.
Anyone who has anything to do with drugs on any level should watch them.
Haha yeah I know, I've seen almost all of his stuff on Youtube.
The main reason I am asking more about reasonable suspicion is because I honestly have no clue how my PO would obtain any "reasonable suspicion" that I was committing crimes in my residence from the way I conduct myself around him, other law enforcement people, and even just when I'm alone in general. In this case I am referring to the idea of "reasonable suspicion" that I derived from watching Barry's videos.
That is why I am wondering if maybe there is a broader definition of "reasonable suspicion" to draw from in cases like probation. Because from the way Barry describes reasonable suspicion, I see no way any law enforcement official would ever obtain any as grounds to search my place.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
I bought all his videos and sent a donation on top of that. You know the pigs got his kids taken away from him because they were pissed when he exposed their corruption?
Fucked up.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Celestial Traveler
Random Observer



Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16622158 - 07/31/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yep fucked up world we live in. Can't really overstate it.
|
theonlysun81
Long Time Lurker, Recent Member


Registered: 05/11/12
Posts: 1,712
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
Would a non-traffic violation effect my ARD status in the state of Pennsylvania? The two events occured in different counties
--------------------
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
I have no idea. I'm not licensed in PA, and I don't do DUIs.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Anonymous #10
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627867 - 08/01/12 11:59 AM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Let’s say I live in a house with one other person who happens to deal some illegal substances periodically. How can I best legally isolate myself from him in the event he is busted, house raided, etc?
As of now everything he does and has is confined to his room.
I dont want to get screwed over if he does something stupid as I dont use, sell, possess, etc.
|
Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
|
|
Just make sure that he keeps it all in his room and out of the common area...
Having said that, if the house is raided, you're probably gonna be arrested. It's unlikely that you'd be charged, and even more unlikely that you could ever be convicted...but an arrest is certainly likely. The cops aren't gonna know whose room is whose when they raid, so they're gonna want to sort it all out.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
|
Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627951 - 08/01/12 12:15 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Are there steps that could reduce the chance of that? Keep the stuff in a safe, keep the room door locked, etc?
Or pretty much everybody gets arrested and they sort it out later?
And does it matter who is on the lease or not in that scenario?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
|
Anonymous #10
|
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16627992 - 08/01/12 12:22 PM (11 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
^^assuming I was arrested in that case is the best plan of action to keep my mouth shut or should I be saying I had no knowledge of what was going on?
Or should I be looking for an attorney?
|
|