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Anonymous #9
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16606707 - 07/28/12 02:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was just wondering how safe it is to post info that you're growing illegal shrooms or even weed on forums? I mean it seems like it is safe because everyone is taking pics and making grow logs etc. I just would think that Police have right to contact admin and grab I.P info from anyone that has said they are growing shrooms?
Then what's stopping them from making a surprise visit to your home?
I posted on a forum from my own country that's also focused on drugs and now I'm not sure if that was a good idea. So I'm too scared to ask this question there.
It's ok if you're answer is made for U.S.. I'll just hope my country has similar laws.
I expect it's safe though I would just like to know why in that case.
Edited by Anonymous (08/08/12 01:19 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,981
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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In the U.S., the cops can always ask for ip information from an isp or a site. Of course, the isp and the site can both refuse to provide it without a subpoena or warrant.
I don't know about swedish law, but I suspect there are similar protections. The bigger issue is whether the site would be willing to turn over such information without a warrant...I'm confident that shroomery wouldn't turn anything over without one...but you never know...
Of course, an IP address really can't tell them too much. At best, it can locate where the post was made. It can't tell who posted....or who took the picture...or where the picture was taken...In the U.S., an ip would be enough to get a warrant, but not enough to convict if they found nothing in the search.
So generally, it's pretty safe. There is always, however, a chance that some enterprising cops might one day decide to track down small quantity manufacturers and are willing to go through all of the trouble to do it with ip addresses...
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Adden
Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
Loc:
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16610288 - 07/29/12 10:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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If the feds pull an "Operation Web Tryp" on mushroom cult...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16610359 - 07/29/12 11:17 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something.
And you're missing my whole point too. That will not fly if the judge believes you are lying about forgetting the password. It may be plausible on a computer you put in the closet last year and haven't used since, but not on your laptop you're carrying with you. Judges aren't stupid.
As for the airport scenario, it was taken from a recent case where a cop saw a guy looking at kiddy porn on his laptop then conveniently "forgot" his password. The judge called bullshit. Guess where he's spending quality time right now?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610491 - 07/29/12 11:50 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
The record company isn't a "credit reporting agency" under the FCRA, so they aren't subject to all of the accuracy and dispute laws that exist for credit reports. Most likely, you only have a suit in general libel for a false statement that tends to hurt your reputation...only question is: Is it really a false statement to claim that you've been convicted? This is a tough sell in court, imo.
They are (or were, unless the law changed recently) in many cases. It turns on what the purpose of the provision of information was. If it was something for personal, consumer, application, like a job, then they are bound by the law. Of course, if the cops use it to investigate you or something like that, then no, but generally it comes up in job applications, and those are usually FCRA credit reports.
Quote:
The term “consumer report” means any written, oral, or other communication of any information by a consumer reporting agency bearing on a consumer's credit worthiness, credit standing, credit capacity, character, general reputation, personal characteristics, or mode of living which is used or expected to be used or collected in whole or in part for the purpose of serving as a factor in establishing the consumer's eligibility for[...] (b) employment purposes
FCRA sec 603(d)(1)
Quote:
Enlil said: The bigger issue is whether the site would be willing to turn over such information without a warrant...I'm confident that shroomery wouldn't turn anything over without one...but you never know...
The admins have said such things before (with the exception of malicious attacks on the site), but it seems like most sites and organizations are willing to just give the government whatever they ask for. eBay brags about how they'll give any law enforcement agency who asks any information they have, even stuff that isn't publicly visible. Apparently there are people out there who think its a good thing that a site "cooperates with the authorities". How absurd.
Quote:
Diploid said: You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something.
And you're missing my whole point too. That will not fly if the judge believes you are lying about forgetting the password. It may be plausible on a computer you put in the closet last year and haven't used since, but not on your laptop you're carrying with you. Judges aren't stupid.
As for the airport scenario, it was taken from a recent case where a cop saw a guy looking at kiddy porn on his laptop then conveniently "forgot" his password. The judge called bullshit. Guess where he's spending quality time right now?
Depending on the circumstances, you may be able to avoid a criminal contempt conviction, though, if you can create enough doubt. Of course, that won't stop them from jailing you for a good long while, but eventually they'll have to give it up. Is the guy in the airport actually charged with criminal contempt? (not that the papers are high enough quality to know in most cases, the reporting on legal and scientific matters is abysmal).
I'm really getting tired of the moral panick over child pornography. Just like the war on drugs, its used to justify all manner of ridiculous crap- of course they never exclude the laws to child pornography, so it ends up screwing everybody. I really fail to see the problem if some pervert has dirty pictures- it seems silly to think that in itself is a crime.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
#16610506 - 07/29/12 11:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I really fail to see the problem if some pervert has dirty pictures- it seems silly to think that in itself is a crime.
You think that's bad, in some cases even a pencil drawing of kiddy porn can land you in jail.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,981
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610537 - 07/29/12 12:04 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: You think that's bad, in some cases even a pencil drawing of kiddy porn can land you in jail.
That would be a very, very rare case indeed...
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16610664 - 07/29/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Computer generated images are now so good, that you can't tell the difference without a careful examination. It's prompted thought-police laws like this one:
Wiki:
In response to Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush.[50] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".
By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value. And mere possession of said images is not a violation of the law unless it can be proven that they were transmitted through a common carrier, such as the mail or the internet, or transported across state lines.[51] There is also an affirmative defense made for possession of no more than two images with "reasonable steps to destroy" the images or reporting and turning over the images to law enforcement.[52]
On December 18, 2008 the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction.[57] The court stated that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists." Attorneys for Mr. Whorley have said that they will appeal to the Supreme Court.[58][59] The request for rehearing was denied on June 15, 2009 and the petition for his case to be reviewed by the Supreme Court was denied on January 11, 2010.[60]
In October 2008, Neil Gaiman and the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund became involved with the case of Christopher Handley. In 2009, Handley pled guilty to the charges and in February 2010 was sentenced to six months in prison.[62]
In October 2010, a 33 year old Idaho man, Steven Kutzner, entered into a plea agreement concerning images of child characters from the American animated television show, The Simpsons engaged in sexual acts.[63][64] In January 2011, Kutzner was sentenced to serve 15 months in federal prison.
So far Christopher Handley has been the only person found guilty of possession under laws against artificial depictions that was not also under investigation for child pornography involving real minors.[
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,981
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16610739 - 07/29/12 12:54 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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As I said...a rare case indeed.
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Stonehenge
Alt Center
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
Loc: S.E.
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16611296 - 07/29/12 03:24 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Diploid, regardless of where the seizure takes place, even at an airport as you keep saying, certain things hold true. A judge can order many things but if someone is broke they can not be held indefinitely for failure to pay a fine or other court ordered payment. That 14 year case enlil managed to dig up is a rarity indeed and no doubt had special circumstances. They probably could show he sent money abroad and no record of it coming back or being lost. Offshore accounts or somesuch.
Another example is lets say a judge orders someone to personally clean a house or personally perform some other manual labor. If the person is in a wheelchair or otherwise incapacitated, that order will be overturned and one would hope the judge would have enough sense not to make it or would give the option to pay someone to do the task.
Obviously if a cop saw you opening a file and then close it and claim you can't open it again, the judge will be very skeptical in that situation you made up. Most things are not so cut and dry. I challenge anyone to find me a case where someone was ordered to remember things they had forgotten and spent a considerable time in jail as a result. I'm sure enlil would have posted if he could find such a case, who else wants to try?
"Judge, i tried and tried to open it but i forgot the password or passphrase" Investigators say "the file was accessed just a week before the arrest" defendant: "yes judge, i keep trying to open it but with no luck" The story is air tight and if the contents of the file will put you away for a felony, would you rather take a chance on misdemeanor contempt of court or do some hard time with a felony?
I happen to think locking people up for years or decades for looking at dirty pictures is an abomination all by itself but no doubt several will vehemently defend such penalties. We are still in the dark ages in many ways. Lock people up for directly harming someone but dirty pictures is so medieval and puritanical its amazing. People get literally decades for simple possession.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
#16612460 - 07/29/12 06:53 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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A judge can order many things but if someone is broke they can not be held indefinitely for failure to pay a fine or other court ordered payment.
So what? If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up. I don't understand what part EXACTLY of that I have wrong. Can you tell me? It's a simple direct question.
Obviously if a cop saw you opening a file and then close it and claim you can't open it again, the judge will be very skeptical in that situation you made up. Most things are not so cut and dry.
Well, if you're walking around with your laptop, it's almost as cut a dry. Why would you be walking around with a useless laptop you can't access because you forgot the password? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you're lying.
The story is air tight and if the contents of the file will put you away for a felony, would you rather take a chance on misdemeanor contempt of court or do some hard time with a felony?
It depends on how serious the judge is and how long I'm likely to get if convicted.
I happen to think locking people up for years or decades for looking at dirty pictures is an abomination
Preaching to the choir, but that doesn't change the facts as I've put them on the table. If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up and there is no limit in principle to how long that can be for.
If *I* were the judge and some rapist-murderer was about to walk free because he "conveniently" forgot his password, I'll rot in my grave before I let him go. Period. The the law pretty much backs the judge up on that.
Your mileage may vary.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid] 1
#16612749 - 07/29/12 07:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I'm pretty sure he also defends innocent people accused of child rape.
I for one would be grateful for the help if falsely accused and a world of sself-righteous jerks prejudged me because, god dammit, someone must pay even if I didn't do it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
bushrat said: enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
How does that follow? I'm sure he defends a number of assholes, so what?
Either you believe in an adversarial system (with appropriate checks), or you don't. If you don't, you're going to have to explain how to safeguard the law and check the governmental and adjudicator's power. There simply isn't any decent alternative that I can tell.
As soon as you grant the government, or anyone, the right to just summarily dispose of the "bad people" you grant them the right to determine who they are. Its not that I'm per se opposed to just disposing of horrible people, its that there's no way to determine who they are and safeguard the rights of the rest of the people without a robust adversarial process founded on law.
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Quote:
bushrat said: enlil defends child rapists. so he obviously doesnt care if some guy is looking at pictures of little kids getting fucked or posing sexually.
Boring old troll is boring. Move along.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613134 - 07/29/12 08:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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oh look, its the other pedo coming in defense of his buddy. Did he go to the NAMBLA forums and IM you to come help? You pedos are so insecure with yourselves, which is the reason you have to take advantage of young, susceptible children....It gives you a sense of power and control that you would never get in fucking consenting adults. Have fun with your little pedo party with enfamil.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
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Doc_T
Random Dude
Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613155 - 07/29/12 08:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Doc_T said: Boring old troll is boring. Move along.
This.
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KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist
Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Doc_T]
#16613361 - 07/29/12 09:16 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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go enter the ban lotto.then fuss about it when you win and create multiple ragee puppets.
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,981
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
bushrat said: go enter the ban lotto.then fuss about it when you win and create multiple ragee puppets.
Does this look like OTD to you? What exactly is your purpose here? Looking at your three posts, you look just like a child screaming "look at me!" over and over.
I can only assume that your goal here was to somehow shame me for representing people whom you have deemed unworthy of representation. I feel absolutely no shame for representing child rapists, however. On the contrary, I take great pride in the fact that I do not judge my clients by the charges with which they have been accused. Even the worst in our society should enjoy the presumption of innocence and are entitled to competent representation when they become the target of a prosecution.
The very fact that you chose "child rape" as the subject of your post reflects the societal knee-jerk reaction to such a charge. These people rarely get anything resembling a fair shake in the court of public opinion. The assumption is always that they are monsters who should be burned in the center of town. Rarely does anyone stand up and pubicly question the accuser. One need look no further than the McMartin Preschool case to see the way in which people's lives can be destroyed by unfounded claims of sexual abuse of children.
Yes, Bushrat, I have represented people accused of child rape. I have received hate mail for doing so. I consider it an honor to be able to take some of the hits that society would otherwise throw at those clients, and I look forward to an opportunity to protect more such clients from those in our society who would deprive them of their Constitutional rights.
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Lana
Head Banana
Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 3,109
Loc: www.MycoSupply.com
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16615264 - 07/30/12 04:15 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Reopened.
Lana
Edited by Lana (07/30/12 12:59 PM)
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