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 Enlil 
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Quote:
Anonymous said:
what if someone has an expunged felony for manufacturing and distributing hallucinogens, and a couple dui's. Can they take a bar exam ?
They can go to law school...and if they do that, they can take the bar. Whether or not he/she will get licensed is another matter. Having said that, an expunged non-violent felony not indicative of moral turpitude probably won't preclude licensing. It does, of course, matter how old the conviction is.
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Vitalux
Stranger from the next universe
Registered: 02/15/11
Posts: 2,695
Loc: Canada 
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 Re: Ask a defense attorney  [Re: Enlil]
#16795033 - 09/05/12 08:35 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Enlil
got a quick question about search warrants.
Say Bill has his car parked in his friend's George's garage for storage.
Lets assume Bill does not live at the house where he has stored his car and the car is locked.
Say for some reason the police have to search George's house for suspicion of drugs.
Could the police search the car in the garage?
Even if they somehow did......who would be charged if any could be laid?
Lets assume Bill's car has 5 million hits of LSD blotter, ten kilograms of coke, and a 5 kilos of hash all stashed in the trunk. 
lets assume the rest of the house was clean.
Lets assume the police did not know the car was in the garage prior to the search.
Edited by Vitalux (09/05/12 08:42 PM)
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LySergic D
Drink all day and rock all night
Registered: 10/20/11
Posts: 7,583
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Vitalux]
#16795416 - 09/05/12 09:40 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Enill... You know of my situation. I know this sounds and is immature but hear me out.
I heard yesterday of the person who narc'd me out admitting to being a narc over facebook. I logged onto a account i made a long time ago and surprisingly, i had a friend request from him. Long story short, i had enough. Ive kept my opinions and thoughts on said narc bottled up for 3 months and i kinda let loose. I went off on him on his wall section. I deleted everything i said after i he responded to my bitching. In the end, he told me he said he called the narcotics detective and that they will be arresting me tomorrow. I thought this sounded like a way to just get me to stop bitching at him but im still kinda freaked. I know, it was a very stupid, immature thing for a grown ass man such as myself to do.
Anyway, what do you think could happen if anything at all? This facebook account of mine has nothing about me whatsoever other than my name. He did send me a friend request last year that i did accept to gain access to his page. He also admitted to being a narc over facebook before i ever joined in.
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Celestial Traveler
Random Observer
Registered: 03/03/11
Posts: 7,639
Loc: Idaho
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LySergic D]
#16795434 - 09/05/12 09:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
LySergic D said:
Enill... You know of my situation. I know this sounds and is immature but hear me out.
I heard yesterday of the person who narc'd me out admitting to being a narc over facebook. I logged onto a account i made a long time ago and surprisingly, i had a friend request from him. Long story short, i had enough. Ive kept my opinions and thoughts on said narc bottled up for 3 months and i kinda let loose. I went off on him on his wall section. I deleted everything i said after i he responded to my bitching. In the end, he told me he said he called the narcotics detective and that they will be arresting me tomorrow. I thought this sounded like a way to just get me to stop bitching at him but im still kinda freaked. I know, it was a very stupid, immature thing for a grown ass man such as myself to do.
Anyway, what do you think could happen if anything at all? This facebook account of mine has nothing about me whatsoever other than my name. He did send me a friend request last year that i did accept to gain access to his page. He also admitted to being a narc over facebook before i ever joined in.
Weren't you already arrested? If you're not still doing illegal things why would you still have something to worry about?
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LySergic D
Drink all day and rock all night
Registered: 10/20/11
Posts: 7,583
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I dont know man. The law is just trying to fuck me which ever way they can. I just want to be sure i didn't fuck up again.
I just couldnt hold back
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Broken heart don't feel so bad
You ain't got half of what you thought you had
Rock you baby to and fro
Not too fast and not too slow
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Vitalux]
#16796964 - 09/06/12 05:30 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
sloantbone said:
Enlil
got a quick question about search warrants.
Say Bill has his car parked in his friend's George's garage for storage.
Lets assume Bill does not live at the house where he has stored his car and the car is locked.
Say for some reason the police have to search George's house for suspicion of drugs.
Could the police search the car in the garage?
Even if they somehow did......who would be charged if any could be laid?
Lets assume Bill's car has 5 million hits of LSD blotter, ten kilograms of coke, and a 5 kilos of hash all stashed in the trunk.
lets assume the rest of the house was clean.
Lets assume the police did not know the car was in the garage prior to the search.
I'm assuming that the warrant says "and all vehicles on the premises"...most of them do.
This is the worst possible situation for Bill. He can't challenge the validity of the warrant because he lacks "standing." Standing is a legal doctrine which basically says that a person who asks a court for a remedy must have been the person who was harmed. In the case of a challenge to a search, the person who was harmed is the one who had their 4th amendement rights violated....not necessarily the person who was charged based on that search.
Here, this is George's house. He has a 4th amendment right to protection against unreasonable searches of that house. Bill has no such rights with respect to the house. As a result, if the warrant was improperly issued, Bill can't challenge it in court. Bill is most likely sunk on all of it.
George's situation is much less certain. First, he can challenge the validity of the warrant. If the warrant is valid and states that the search is for drugs, that certainly allows the police to search any car. You've offered no facts about the foundation of the warrant, so the discussion of that topic ends here.
George will likely be charged, but his defense will be pretty strong. A possession conviction requires that the state prove that George had "dominion and control" over the drugs. Also, as mentioned some pages back, the conviction would require proof that George had the required "mens rea" for the crime....in this case, that would mean proving that George knew the drugs were there.
Dominion and control: If the car is locked, and George does not have a key, he probably doesn't have dominion and control over the drugs. He has dominion and control over the car because it's locked in his garage and no one can do anything with it absent George's cooperation. George, however, can't enter the car. He can't drive the car, etc.
If George was given a key to the car and permission to use it, then proving dominion and control is much easier. Details matter here because if the drugs were in the trunk, but the key George was given doesn't open the trunk, he's less likely to have dominion and control...any number of variations can increase or decrease the quality of proof of dominion and control.
Knowledge: Proving that George had knowledge of the drugs is going to be pretty hard without Bill's cooperation with law enforcement. Unless the police happen to find a contract saying, "I, george, agree to store bill's car full of controlled dangerous substances for 3 months", it's going to be an uphill battle for the prosecutor. This is even more true if George does not have a key to the car....even more than that if the drugs are not viewable through the windows...etc.
So, what would be the outcome for George? Anything from no charges to the rest of his life in prison...but both of those extremes are unlikely. Most likely, he would be charged, but the charges would be dissmissed before trial...either by voluntary dismissal by the prosecutor or by order of the court.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LySergic D]
#16796978 - 09/06/12 05:42 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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It depends on many factors. Were you ordered to have no contact with the person as a condition of bail? If so, you fucked that up. Having said that, they're gonna have to prove you did it. It's a bit more complicated because of the anonymity of facebook...but they likely can do that without a problem.
All they need is for this guy to testify that it's your account. He sent the friend request for some reason...I'm guessing you told him to or something. In any case, he had some reason to believe it was you when he sent the request, and that's probably enough to prove the account is yours.
Even absent that, they can probably prove it by the content of your posts. Whether they would go through the trouble of getting proof of the posts is another matter altogether. You're hardly a big time criminal.
Even without the posts, the friend request alone is probably enough to be deemed a violation of bail conditions...however, it's unlikely that bail would be revoked for that. At worst, you would be arrested and spend a few days in jail until you're brought before a judge. The judge would likely give you a stern scolding/warning and send you home.
The most important thing to get from this post, however, is this:
DON'T DO STUPID SHIT TO GET YOUR BAIL REVOKED!
P.S. If you were not ordered to stay clear of this guy, there's nothing to arrest you for.
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LySergic D
Drink all day and rock all night
Registered: 10/20/11
Posts: 7,583
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16797048 - 09/06/12 06:08 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dont specifically remember any officer or detective telling me i could not talk to him. It isn't anywhere in my plethora of papers.
My lawyer told me not to talk to him over facebook at the beginning of all this to avoid exposing a CI.
He exposed himself as one before i ever said anything to him.
I did delete every post as soon as he responded to it. He didn't specifically mention my name in any of his post. Also, the facebook profile has nothing about me on it. Just my name. No picture or anything. For all they know, someone made an account pretending to be me to fuck with him.
About the friend request, he sent it to me a long time ago. I just now accepted it so i could do what i did.
I know, this was a very stupid thing for me to do. I just couldn't hold it back.
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Broken heart don't feel so bad
You ain't got half of what you thought you had
Rock you baby to and fro
Not too fast and not too slow
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: LySergic D]
#16797206 - 09/06/12 06:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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If it wasn't a condition of bail, you're fine...still, spewing shit that can be traced to you on public forums won't help your case...it can only hurt.
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Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out
Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 14,327
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16797309 - 09/06/12 07:59 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wow Enlil, just want to say thanks for this thread, such a wealth of information (that keeps on growing).
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Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name
Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world? There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K Something abut that anaesthetic rush...  Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One
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Vitalux
Stranger from the next universe
Registered: 02/15/11
Posts: 2,695
Loc: Canada
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16809010 - 09/08/12 12:22 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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thank you so much
You answered my question and I really dig and understand that facts now.
On a good note, it tells me that one thing a person (Bill) in theory could do, if he was looking to store large quantities of illegal drugs, is that he could rent someone's garage (George) and park/store his car there.
Store the illegal drugs in the truck of their car.
In the unlikely event that the person's (George) place ever did get searched, George could have a defense and would not be charged.
But as a wild card, Bill could hang a trunk key on the garage wall, in a inconspicuous place, and claim that he has no clue how the drugs got in his trunk and claim that his car keys were left hanging on a nail up on the wall. In short, he could say that George probably stashed it there and claim he had no clue or any knowledge of drugs in his car.
yeah....fuck George and the horse he rode in on 
Edited by Vitalux (09/08/12 05:59 AM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Vitalux]
#16809682 - 09/08/12 05:55 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lol. I'm pretty sure that george would testify that he never opened the trunk. In a scenario like you describe where both george and bill testify. I don't give Bill much of a chance unless he's a super genius pathological liar. Lawyers are sneaky as shit and Bill is likely to become less and less credible as cross examination goes on.
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Adden
Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 39,201
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16810208 - 09/08/12 09:47 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Have you ever seen sociopathic / pathological liars end up on the sweet end of the deal?
Wondering how well I'd fare if I ever had to speak in court.
My wife says she "doesn't understand how I get away with half the shit I do" and the coercion I use to get what I want is "borderline sociopathic".
I guess, have you ever had clients who admitted guilt and just lied their way out of it?
It's gotta be possible.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Adden]
#16810672 - 09/08/12 11:37 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Lying on the stand is tough. It isn't just a matter of convincingly lying. It is a matter of planning your lie perfectly. There are many techniques we use that make it very difficult for someone to pull it off. Eventually, a good attorney will unravel your story on the stand.
As far as having a client who admitted to me that they are guilty...if they do that, I can't put them on the stand. If they demand a chance to testify, I have to ask to withdraw from representation. If that is denied, I can't ask them any questions on the stand. They testify in "narrative" form...meaning they just tell their story and get cross examined by the prosecutor.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16811241 - 09/08/12 01:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
As far as having a client who admitted to me that they are guilty...if they do that, I can't put them on the stand.
Why not? They can still testify about other matters, correct? And other things he's not guilty of, yes? I'm sure its still a disaster in cross when the prosecutor asks about the incident in question, but there's no ethical issue unless you know he's lieing or going to lie, yes?
A good attorney I saw told me straight up: "this isn't like TV, I don't care what you did or didn't do: I"m not your friend, and I'm not here to comfort you. If you tell me you did something, I can't put on a witness that says you didn't. So, tell me what you think the cops will allege, and only answer the questions I ask".
Quote:
They testify in "narrative" form...meaning they just tell their story and get cross examined by the prosecutor.
How is that ethical? Sounds like not having an attorney at all, and a clear signal to the judge and the prosecutor and any astute jury member that you don't believe that shit either. Sounds more unethical than suborning perjury to me.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16811365 - 09/08/12 01:56 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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They testify in "narrative" form...meaning they just tell their story and get cross examined by the prosecutor.
Wouldn't that be a dead giveaway that he's lying and you're sitting back because you know it and can't question him?
BTW, this conversation brings to mind something I had forgotten. Way back in another life when I had to work for a living I did some contract engineering for Boeing. At one point another contract consulting shop who worked with Boeing offered me a lot more money to work for them.
As it happened, when I signed the contract with the first shop, there was an anti-competition clause that I wouldn't work at Boeing either as a direct employee or through another consulting shop for six years.
I jumped ship anyway and the first shop sued me when an ugly, borderline incompetent Chinese asshole who worked for them saw me in the hallway and told them. I won in the end (after $10k in legal fees) because Florida is a right to work state and they couldn't enforce the contract, but they tried their damnedest to intimidate me. It pissed off my lawyer when they asked for an emergency injunction against me on grounds that I was causing them irreparable harm. This wasn't true because I was working on a different project that didn't affect them, but it really pissed off my lawyer. He took it personally and coached me to give false testimony at my deposition.
He told me to say that one of the principles at the consulting shop told me that my salary would double after a six month probation period. I told him that wasn't true and he said "so what?". I smiled and said alright, let's do it.
I lied in the deposition, the other lawyer freaked out, and I won in the end. I was VERY well prepared, though. I spent the prior two weeks rehearsing every angle in my head and had a snappy answer to everything they could throw at me. I never realized until reading this thread how much he was putting his ass on the line. I don't know why he did, other than anger and taking things personally. He was genuinely incensed with the other lawyer's legal trickery of an obvious invalid emergency injunction as a way to increase my legal costs and making me give up. The other side miscalculated that I wasn't giving up on principle and was prepared to spend my entire retirement savings and go into debt if that's what it took. They also underestimated how pissed off they were making my lawyer who, in hindsight, charged me the very minimum practical.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16811434 - 09/08/12 02:08 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said:
Why not? They can still testify about other matters, correct? And other things he's not guilty of, yes? I'm sure its still a disaster in cross when the prosecutor asks about the incident in question, but there's no ethical issue unless you know he's lieing or going to lie, yes?
He's going to lie. He's going to be asked if he did it, and he's going to lie. Besides, how can I question him on direct without having him lie?
Quote:
A good attorney I saw told me straight up: "this isn't like TV, I don't care what you did or didn't do: I"m not your friend, and I'm not here to comfort you. If you tell me you did something, I can't put on a witness that says you didn't. So, tell me what you think the cops will allege, and only answer the questions I ask".
I can put up a witness that says something that disagrees with what my client has told me. That is not an ethical violation. I can also argue theories that go against what my client has told me, but this gets a bit tricky. I would rather he not tell me what he did and didn't do, however.
Quote:
How is that ethical? Sounds like not having an attorney at all, and a clear signal to the judge and the prosecutor and any astute jury member that you don't believe that shit either. Sounds more unethical than suborning perjury to me.
He has a constitutional right to testify if he wants. I just can't help him lie on the stand....meaning that I can't ask him the questions if I know he's going to lie.
Quote:
Diploid said:
Wouldn't that be a dead giveaway that he's lying and you're sitting back because you know it and can't question him?
Yes. It is a dead giveaway.
Quote:
He took it personally and coached me to give false testimony at my deposition.
He told me to say that one of the principles at the consulting shop told me that my salary would double after a six month probation period. I told him that wasn't true and he said "so what?". I smiled and said alright, let's do it.
Bad lawyers are bad.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16811549 - 09/08/12 02:29 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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I dunno, but I'm getting a feeling that you are far more ethical than the mean. That's a compliment, BTW.
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King
Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,258
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16811595 - 09/08/12 02:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Trial lawyers are constantly faced with ethical dilemmas. Some fall prey to taking the easier way out. The more someone gets away with it, the more it becomes their normal course of action.
I play by the rules because that is the difference between being a valuable part of a system of justice and being a sleazebag hired gun. Others may see it differently and act accordingly.
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Anonymous #17
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16827828 - 09/11/12 08:20 AM (11 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thanks for the thread man!
Say you have a package in the mail that gets intercepted. They set up a controlled delivery and attempt to make you sign for it. It has your real name and address on it. How easy is it to refuse the package on the account that you are not expecting any packages?
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