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Ren
Found in a World of Illusion



Registered: 06/16/12
Posts: 1,187
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16766296 - 08/31/12 02:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks Enlil, you're straight up tits. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. 
Edit: tits = thoughtful and awesome
-------------------- This is a shared account, everything posted by us is entirely fictional for purposes of social experimentation and exploration. For Trade and In search of Plant list
Edited by Ren (08/31/12 04:01 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Ren]
#16766361 - 08/31/12 03:03 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thanks?
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16768700 - 08/31/12 11:01 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have this civil suit court date coming up at the end of September. It's for $6K on a delinquent credit card from 2008. I tried to negotiate with the law firm about a month ago, but they wouldn't go lower than $5K.
I called a friend of a friend's lawyer father and asked if he could try and call the law firm and get me a better deal. He said that it was too late; if I had called him right away, he could have set up a decent defense for me, filed for discovery, adjournments, and some other legal crap.
As an aside, he also told me that asking for a jury trial was, and I quote, "moronic." Well, he obviously doesn't understand my strategy of wasting as much of everyone's time as possible in the courtroom in response to them suing for such a small amount. I had fully planned to spend at least three days in jury selection. Furthermore, no offense, but that kinda comment makes me wanna slide my cock up his ass in a not-so-gently fashion--with no lube.
Anyway, the "problem" is that I have a job now, and this strategy also wastes _my_ time. I don't want to be burning my days off for this crap. That's just not good business. If I'm going to take days off and lose money from work I might as well just give them what they're asking. In addition, I've been settling other accounts, and by checking my credit report they know it, know that I have some cash now, and know that it's worth it for them to sue, because they can lock down my accounts and collect.
So, is there any way that you know of that I can get them to come down in price? At least split it and settle for 3k? The lawyer told me my best bet was to go to court that day and try and settle. Any other ideas?
tyvm
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (08/31/12 11:17 PM)
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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The lawyer was right about everything you posted. A jury trial with a pro se is a recipe for disaster. This is particularly true if your plan is to stall and waste time. You're basically begging the court to sanction you. That would mean a couple of grand before you even got to a judgment.
He's also right about it being too late. There are ways to fight debt suits, but it requires lots of maneuvering in the discovery phase of litigation. You've no time to do much now.
Finally, the best bet at this point is to indeed go to trial and settle on that day. The fact that you are now employed makes it a bit more difficult, but they still will have some incentive to settle. Trials are always a gamble, even when it is something as simple as a debt.
When negotiating with them, the best possible outcome will come by educating the adversary and lowering his expectations. Go in armed with your state or county's garnishment figures. Show them how much money they can possibly get from you per week/month. Show them how long it will take them to collect the money from you. Compare this with the amount you can give them much more quickly. Argue the time value of money...a bird in the hand, etc.
Your chances of a better settlement are increased by:
1. Showing low income that minimizes the amount they can garnish. 2. Having cash to offer on that day 3. Having little or no assets that can be seized. 4. Having a strong case against them (this is probably not an option)
Finally, whatever you do, do NOT threaten in any way to stall the litigation in an attempt to cost them lawyers fees. This will bite you in the ass. It sets you up for court sanctions which is extra money out of your pocket and in theirs. You can certainly remind them of the potential cost of a trial, but don't cross over into the land of "if you don't accept, I'm gonna make sure it costs you as much as possible"
Good luck.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16769866 - 09/01/12 05:22 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Thank you for taking the time to offer your advice.
EDIT: What do you think about telling them, in an effort to convey the message that it will be difficult to collect, that my money is in another's name, an LLC, or an offshore account? Or, actually moving it into one of these. Also, based on my plans, your posts generally seem to indicate that I'm pretty much headed for a court sanction; for example:
1. Plan to bitch about bank bailouts during opening statements 2. Plan to waste as much time as possible, such as spending endless hours in jury selection 3. Plan to counter-sue the original creditor based on some crap that I made up.
This definitely gives me pause for thought.
How does a court sanction actually occur? I don't plan on getting loud, or cursing, or anything. For example, in opening statements, I'd say something like:
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Please keep in mind that the Plaintiff is paid by a bank that received a total of $120 Billion dollars of bailout money--my tax money, and your tax money. Isn't it nice that they can turn around and use this money to sue little people like me? Did you receive a bailout? Everyone in the courtroom who received a bailout, raise your hand! Well, the original creditor received a monstrous bailout, and has the cash to hire a high-powered law firm. Etc.."
So what happens if I try this? Does the judge cut me off and sanction me? Is this basically just Hollywood nonsense?
-------------------- "Inspiration ~ Move me brightly ~ light the song with sense and color ~ hold away despair ~ more than this I will not ask ~ faced with mysteries dark and vast ~ statements just seem vain at last" --Jerry Garcia, Terrapin Station "Officer, I'm going to remain silent, and I would like to speak with a lawyer. I'm not resisting, but I don't consent to any searches.
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/01/12 12:43 PM)
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KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY
off road unicyclist


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 5,328
Loc: vt
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16771996 - 09/01/12 04:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Humility said:
Quote:
People fucked over by the system are a relatively small (and politically inert) group.
You're joking, right?
You have got to be joking...
this guy
-------------------- BUSHRAT DOES NOT SOW
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16774685 - 09/02/12 02:18 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Go in armed with your state or county's garnishment figures. Show them how much money they can possibly get from you per week/month.
How would they even find out where someone works to garnish their pay? Wouldn't they have to get an investigator to find out and that's probably not very easy to do unless your credit report has the name of your employer.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16774994 - 09/02/12 05:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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The easiest way is for them to simply ask. If a judgment is awarded, and the "judgment debtor" wont/can't pay it, the "judgment creditor" can have the debtor called back to the stand to ask them questions related to collection. They can ask about income, assets, credit history, etc.
If the debtor refuses to go that hearing, the creditor can have the sheriff go to that person's house and just take whatever cash they have on them. Or seize their car/other valuable assets. The burden is on the debtor to fight any such seizure by showing that the assets are exempt from such collection efforts in the jurisdiction.
Having said that, people do run and hide. This is a similar to when people dodge service of process. Collecting a judgment is often much harder than winning one. In such situations, debtors often close bank accounts and work under the table, or they use check cashing services and live a "cash only" life.
Of course, in chicken soup's case, that's not likely to happen. The inconvenience of trying to live underground for the next 10 years (or longer, depending on the state) and the additional harm to his credit report far outweigh the hardship of paying a few thousand dollars.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16775548 - 09/02/12 08:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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If the debtor refuses to go that hearing, the creditor can have the sheriff go to that person's house and just take whatever cash they have on them.
The sheriff will kick down your door and take your valuables? Is that really how it works? Yikes! Sounds one step above debter's prisons.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16775555 - 09/02/12 09:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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They won't kick down your door...no. But if you repeatedly dodge them, they will bring a locksmith and open your door. Of course, the cost of all of this is added to the amount of the judgment, so it ends up costing the debtor a lot more.
A court order is meaningless unless there is some way to enforce it. If they had no power to seize anything, the whole system would have no legitimacy at all.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16775642 - 09/02/12 09:32 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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A court order is meaningless unless there is some way to enforce it. If they had no power to seize anything, the whole system would have no legitimacy at all.
I suppose. It just all seems kinda brutal, but I admit I don't see any other way.
I have a friend whose father is a doctor. Years ago he decided to stop carrying malpractice insurance because it was too expensive. He has a big sign in his office telling patients that if they sue him, they'll be wasting their time because he's not insured.
To reinforce this, he doesn't own anything. Not even his clothes. Everything, the business, cars, house, everything is owned by a relative so if the sheriff showed up, they couldn't even take his shirt because he doesn't own it.
Even his office is owned by the relative and he takes a salary, which is in practice, all the proceeds after expenses just like he would if he owned the business.
Does that strategy really work?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16775678 - 09/02/12 09:47 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe...on a small scale...If someone has a high dollar judgment against him, they'll likely sue him for fraudulent transfer of assets. Eventually, the "friend" that owns everything will likely be the guy who got the judgment.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16775820 - 09/02/12 10:30 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I suppose. It just all seems kinda brutal, but I admit I don't see any other way.
I think that "brutal" is a strong word here. It's actually quite professional, especially when compared to some other techniques that we've seen in the past
1. Debtor's prisons. Inmates were forced to pay for their keep) 2. Slavery. If a debtor was unable to repay a debt, they became the lender's slave 3. Mafioso-style broken thumbs, kneecaps, etc.
Honestly I'm thankful that we have the legal system in place to resolve matters like this.
I make no excuses here: they lent me this money in good faith, and I defaulted. I have already either repaid or settled about a dozen of these (none of whom actually filed against me). The reason that I am so irritated with this particular account is threefold: they actually dragged me into court over this, their settlement offer is a full 85% of the original amount (I've settled four others on average of 33%), and the bank bailouts.
Here I will sound very much like a "99%'er," but how much did Citibank receive in the bank bailouts? Honestly who the fuck knows, but the best information that we have puts it at about USD$40B http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/bailouttracker/
And then they turn around and sue me for $6K? That's bullshit.
Adding insult to injury is that I can't even _mention_ this during my case. According to an earlier Enlil post, this would get me sanctioned because rhetoric is forbidden in opening comments or something like that.
Of course I can't mention that, because they're just as delinquent as I am. The only difference is that I never got a bailout check.
This, btw, if you live in the U.S., is your tax money at work. Aren't you glad the government gave your tax dollars to Citigroup so that they could sue me?
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/02/12 11:08 AM)
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sonamdrukpa
Wayfarer


Registered: 10/18/11
Posts: 2,777
Last seen: 24 days, 23 hours
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Quote:
ch1ck3n.s0up said: This, btw, if you live in the U.S., is your tax money at work. Aren't you glad the government gave your tax dollars to Citigroup so that they could sue me?
Quote:
Matthew 18:23-35 said: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
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ch1ck3n.s0up
Troubled Loner



Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 2,573
Loc: Hunting Fungi
Last seen: 2 years, 9 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: sonamdrukpa] 1
#16778443 - 09/02/12 08:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
ch1ck3n.s0up said: This, btw, if you live in the U.S., is your tax money at work. Aren't you glad the government gave your tax dollars to Citigroup so that they could sue me?
Quote:
Matthew 18:23-35 said: Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Quote:
Matthew 5:25-26 said: 25: Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
Edited by ch1ck3n.s0up (09/02/12 08:32 PM)
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Anonymous #13
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I just got a copyright infringement letter from my ISP for a movie i downloaded. Do movie companies actually prosecute for this?
I'm guessing this is just a scare tactic or a hook to try to get me to call them and confess to downloading it. I haven't seen any case where an individual was sued of anything other then distribution charges.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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I assume you are asking about a civil suit for copyright infringement, as a criminal prosecution is extremely unlikely in your situation.
As far as being sued...yes, people are being sued for downloading copyrighted material. It has become quite popular, actually:
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/05/biggest-bittorrent-case/
The normal course of affairs is that you'll get a demand letter asking for some amount of money to settle the case. Should you refuse, they can take it all the way to trial and get a judgment. Whether they do that or not is up to them. Most likely, they will take some to trial just to make sure that others know tht they mean business. Their bread and butter, of course, is the people who send a check in to settle.
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Anonymous #13
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16781495 - 09/03/12 01:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is it happening often though? In my eyes a huge movie corp would wanna take it up with the big time ditributers and downloaders other then going after people downloading one or two movies, pretty crazy if you ask me
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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It doesn't take much to serve some subpoenas and send out letters. Even if only 10% settle, it's a lot of money...I would guess that it's going to be a more common thing as time goes on
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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Anonymous #16
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16783137 - 09/03/12 06:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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My license is suspended in missouri for a DUI, and suspended in Kansas for refusing a sobriety test. Can I still obtain a legit drivers license in the state of Texas?
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