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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749749 - 08/28/12 05:45 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't know where you got the idea that handing someone a citation means that the cop has to stop investigating, but it doesn't. A cop can call a dog as long as it doesn't unreasonably delay the stop.
Truthfully, from your description, it is impossible to know whether the lawyer is competent. He could be johnny cochran for all I know. Lots of clients think their lawyer is incompetent because he doesn't do what they want, but that's not his job. This guy might be worthless...he might be brilliant. I learned years ago not to judge an adversary by the way he talks or carries himself.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749795 - 08/28/12 05:52 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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My guess is the crux of the issue is the dog. When the dog alerts, they have probable cause to search and then the game's up. Even if the dag was false-alerted, you'd have a hard time proving it.
Barry Cooper is almost as cool as Enlil. 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16749855 - 08/28/12 05:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
cop can call a dog as long as it doesn't unreasonably delay the stop
And in my state that's THREE hours.
The law is full of bullshit like this. It's immoral, and not in the spirit of what was originally written at all.
All of it is based on violence and force against peaceful people.
The best you can do is hire someone like Enlil to defend you because you will always be ill-equipped to defend yourself against the bullshit these people will throw at you.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16749911 - 08/28/12 06:06 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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There are lots of problems with the system, but it's not likely to change as long as "tough on crime" is a popular vote-getting phrase. People fucked over by the system are a relatively small (and politically inert) group.
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Humility
Working on it



Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 6,745
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16749939 - 08/28/12 06:10 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
People fucked over by the system are a relatively small (and politically inert) group.
You're joking, right?
You have got to be joking...
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Humility]
#16749950 - 08/28/12 06:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's true. The average american never gets arrested or detained...they think it only happens to unsavory types. In most places in America, people actually think the cops are the good guys.
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chrissake
Student of Life


Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16749972 - 08/28/12 06:16 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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All he wants is for the guy to put in some effort fighting for their case, which he has not done. Since he paid the guy $4,000 to represent he and his wife, is that too much to ask? Seriously? I am not exaggerating here, he is the type of guy who does nothing but take the plea that the prosecutor is offering and hands it to the client. He definitely would have been better off with the public defender he was assigned (who visited him 3 times during the 15 days he was in jail and was actually making an effort to figure shit out and make something happen.....most of the guys in there said they were lucky to get 1 visit a month from their PD, but then this guy is not your typical criminal: college student, family man, productive member of society).
Does that sound incompetent enough?
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749976 - 08/28/12 06:17 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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The same attorney for him and his wife? They are co-defendants, correct?
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chrissake
Student of Life


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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749981 - 08/28/12 06:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Seriously, this guy is being punished harshly for choosing natural medicines (after lots of research) This guy won't even drink alcohol or take an aspirin for fear of liver damage.
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chrissake
Student of Life


Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749984 - 08/28/12 06:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, they are co-defendants.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16749989 - 08/28/12 06:19 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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In most places in America, people actually think the cops are the good guys.
I was indoctrinated into that mindset in second grade. I remember thinking it smelled fishy even then.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16749998 - 08/28/12 06:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
chrissake said: Yes, they are co-defendants.
That's a horrible idea for them to share lawyers...especially in this case. I don't even see how the lawyer can possibly do it without selling one or both of them short.
Effective representation of the wife requires pointing the finger at the husband...how can the lawyer do that while effectively representing the husband?
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chrissake
Student of Life


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Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
#16750004 - 08/28/12 06:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: In most places in America, people actually think the cops are the good guys.
I was indoctrinated into that mindset in second grade. I remember thinking it smelled fishy even then.

Yeah me too. It wasn't until I came into contact with them, that I began to see they are not here to protect me. Although, to give them credit, the first couple times I met the police in my home state, they didn't hassle me personally much and told me I needed to find some new friends (which was probably true). But that was years ago, and before I cared about anything at all....before I started thinking.
Edited by chrissake (08/28/12 06:31 PM)
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chrissake
Student of Life


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Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
#16750027 - 08/28/12 06:24 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
Quote:
chrissake said: Yes, they are co-defendants.
That's a horrible idea for them to share lawyers...especially in this case. I don't even see how the lawyer can possibly do it without selling one or both of them short.
Effective representation of the wife requires pointing the finger at the husband...how can the lawyer do that while effectively representing the husband?
Oh, well....thats another problem. He doesn't tell them anything at all, doesn't explain shit. He is just like "want to do this?" and thats about it. But, the guy told him the only thing that is really important is that the wife's charges get dropped. It will ruin her career plans, and ensure her continued suffering until whatever SIS probation term is complete. He told him that he would accept a deal as long as her charges are gone, so maybe it makes sense.
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chrissake
Student of Life


Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16750064 - 08/28/12 06:28 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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This guy does not mind probation, even if it is 5 years like they already offered (5 year SIS). While he finds great medicinal value in the raw, natural substances he allegedly possessed, he can do without them. He also doesn't have any friends in current state of residence and spends all his time at school, at work, or at home.
The only problem is the prosecutor will not drop the wife's charges. She said she would in exchange for the guy's guilty plea of 5 year SIS, but then at the next court date she retracted that. All their lawyer said was that she talked to the arresting officer and there was some problem, but he didn't specify what it was (the guy is left to assume it is because he refused to snitch on anyone).
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16750096 - 08/28/12 06:33 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's probably what is going to happen. That is what usually happens in these situations. She will likely have charges dismissed and the hubby will get probation.
A lawyer who takes on representation of codefendants like that is not taking his ethical duties seriously. I wouldn't do it. Where I work, the PD will only take one of the co-defendants and then hire independant counsel for the rest of them. It is per se ineffective assistance of counsel in my state.
I'm disappointed when I hear this kind of shit.
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chrissake
Student of Life


Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16750192 - 08/28/12 06:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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See, I wish he would have known that. They are trying to hire a regionally famous activist attorney with over 2 decades of experience defending drug cases at the moment, but damn if the guy is ever hard to hire, if you don't have cash in hand and must rely on bond assignments.
If that is what happens, they would be fine with that, but I don't see why they have to prolong it so much......it is costing them a fortune....more money than either of them have ever had or can hope to have anytime too soon. They are forced to drive 8 hours round trip bi-weekly to check in for their court supervision on gas money that should be spent on bills (which they can't even afford to pay) in a car they can no longer afford to properly maintain (because of situation)
Is there any chance this prosecutor would drop B felony to a C felony, and possibly reduce SIS time by a couple years? I just don't see how they could prove the "intent to distribute" beyond a reasonable doubt.
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chrissake
Student of Life


Registered: 11/18/10
Posts: 317
Loc: Northern Woods
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16750220 - 08/28/12 06:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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But, he will take the 5 year SIS, if it is offered, in exchange for dropping the wife's charges, just for the sake of not dragging it out any further.....They are prepared to go to trial, but simple can't afford all the travel, and can't continue taking from their child to foot the bill for all this nonsense. There is no human understanding here at all. They don't seem to understand that they are not punishing some ruthless criminal who is a danger to society, but a whole family of helpful, peace-loving, productive people, child included.
Seriously, the guy is a young man, and has had problems maintaining insurance(and a valid license, due to problems with insurance) due to poverty, and the wife is a middle aged lady who's first and only encounter with the law is a single speeding ticket she just got last year for going 5 over the limit.
Edited by chrissake (08/28/12 06:57 PM)
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Ren
Found in a World of Illusion



Registered: 06/16/12
Posts: 1,187
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
#16762868 - 08/30/12 09:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am a current business owner and I am considering selling ethnobotanticals. I.e. Bridgessi, Mimosa hostilis etc... generally just the live plant I do not plan on processing it whatsoever or selling any processed materials.
My questions:
1. Will advertising these items and being known for it cause an eye to be placed on my business and property? If this something law enforcement considers worth tracking? Lets also consider I am selling large volumes and mass producing these products.
2. Do I face any law suits from people who wrongfully ingest substances which are purely for landscaping purposes?
3. In the case that an item I am growing becomes illegal would I then become a target for scrutiny? (even though I comply and destroy and said substances).
Rather basic questions - just want an experienced response.
THANKS!!
-------------------- This is a shared account, everything posted by us is entirely fictional for purposes of social experimentation and exploration. For Trade and In search of Plant list
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 67,521
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Ren]
#16764715 - 08/31/12 09:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ren said: 1. Will advertising these items and being known for it cause an eye to be placed on my business and property? If this something law enforcement considers worth tracking? Lets also consider I am selling large volumes and mass producing these products.
Maybe. This is a question of whatever priorities and tactics a particular law enforcement agency pursues. Not only can I not give you any kind of meaningful answer...but any answer that I could give you could change at a moment's notice.
Quote:
2. Do I face any law suits from people who wrongfully ingest substances which are purely for landscaping purposes?
Quite possibly. This is a product liability issue. The best things you can do to protect yourself (besides quitting the business altogether) are:
1. Get liability insurance for this type of thing, and 2. Include with every order plenty of warnings...in the packaging...on the website...make them click to indicate that they understand that the stuff is not for human consumption, etc.
Note that this will not guarantee that you won't be sued. Business get sued all the time. This will, however, minimize the risk of liability and the amount of liability.
Quote:
3. In the case that an item I am growing becomes illegal would I then become a target for scrutiny? (even though I comply and destroy and said substances).
If the law makes your business practices illegal, then you need to change the business practices. Of course, there is always a good chance that a change in the law would prompt law enforcement to look at those who used to deal in the now-banned substance. Cleaning house and making it clear that you no longer deal in the substance should go a long way toward reducing any attention you might get from law enforcement. I would still look out for new (or even long-time) customers who try to convince you to sell them something "one last time", etc...
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