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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: SoreSpore] * 1
    #16742208 - 08/27/12 09:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


I appreciate the reply. Is it necessary that a call an attorney in the county in which the case is held?




No, but it's the smartest thing.  First, he's going to know the judges and prosecutors in that county and the likely outcome.  Second, he's going to charge you to travel to another county. 
Quote:


Is there a possibility I would not have to appear personally?




Yes.  That possibility goes up the further your current state of residence is from that state.  Again, the attorney will be able to give you more specifics about local practices.
Quote:


Finally, if attempting to hire an attorney and attempt to expunge this from my record, could you give me a worst case scenario of how much this will cost?



No...I can't.  I can't even tell you the possible fine for the violation.  Expect an attorney to charge you between a grand and three grand...probably closer to the lower amount...plut you'll have to pay the fine and associated fees. 

I can tell you that one free phone call to an attorney in that county will probably answer this question.


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Edited by Enlil (08/27/12 09:39 AM)

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Anonymous #15

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16742237 - 08/27/12 09:37 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Awesome, I appreciate it.

Finally, what is the best way to locate a lawyer from a specific area? Google has not been very helpful.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #15]
    #16742250 - 08/27/12 09:40 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Go the the website for the bar association of that state.  They usually have a lawyer referral service.


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Anonymous #15

Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16742272 - 08/27/12 09:45 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Fucking perfect. Found it in a second.

You are a good counselor.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16742275 - 08/27/12 09:45 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It seems absurd that the system is so paranoid about making sure a defendant has qualified representation that it will literally jail a layperson trying to represent a friend in court, yet it has no trouble denying a PD to someone who has too much money but who can't really afford a lawyer, thus reducing him to a pro se defendant on his own. As if he's automatically more qualified as pro se than his friend who would otherwise represent him.

I can but shake my head at the self-serving neurosis. It's shit like this that makes people hate lawyers.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16742320 - 08/27/12 09:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

The right to represent oneself is a constitutional right...so the court can't really do much about that.  Having another layman represent you, on the other hand, is not a right. 

Also, don't forget that in criminal cases, competency of counsel is a constitutional issue...and having incompetent counsel is grounds for appeal.  Having layman counsel would almost certainly be per se incompetent counsel.

And as I said before...when a criminal defendant doesn't qualify for a PD and won't hire one, a court will almost always appoint one to act as backup counsel for that person.

No system is perfect, and it gets particularly difficult to approach perfection as systems become more complicated.  I'd like to see free representation available to every criminal defendant, but that's a very unpopular notion with voters, so it's not likely to happen anytime soon.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16742468 - 08/27/12 10:39 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

And as I said before...when a criminal defendant doesn't qualify for a PD and won't hire one, a court will almost always appoint one to act as backup counsel for that person.

Yeah but that's not guaranteed and it's totally absent in civil cases.

Can a layperson "advise" a pro se defendant? Say I sit by him in court and whisper suggestions as he directs and crosses witnesses and make suggestions regarding motions and objections. I wouldn't say anything out loud. Is that also prohibited?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Posts: 66,982
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16742508 - 08/27/12 10:52 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You wouldn't be allowed to sit at counsel table, but you could certainly sit in the gallery and he could certainly come talk to you from time to time...


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16742523 - 08/27/12 10:54 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You wouldn't be allowed to sit at counsel table

Of course not. :nonono:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleAbsolute

Registered: 06/30/12
Posts: 488
Loc: Amish Paradise
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16743169 - 08/27/12 01:47 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Have him post in this thread during trial and ask for a continuance until he gets a reply.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Absolute]
    #16743185 - 08/27/12 01:50 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Ensuring a fair trial is the judge's job.  In civil cases, a judge will frequently ask the witness questions if a pro se is fucking it up.  In addition, when a pro se submits moving papers, the judge's clerk researches the issue and writes a brief for the judge just in case the pro se missed something.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16743342 - 08/27/12 02:22 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Ensuring a fair trial is the judge's job.

I was sitting in court waiting my turn at the inquisition over a traffic issue a few years ago and I will never forget a skinny kid of 18 or 19 at most who walked in nervous as hell with a piece of paper in his hand. He was literally shaking when brought before the judge.

As he began reading from the paper, it was clear as day that it was a canned phrase given to him by his lawyer who couldn't be present with him. He said something along the lines of:

"We just received discovery today and request a continuance."

The prosecutor pounced like a rabid dog and asked a relentless barrage of technical questions like:

"Are you making a noticed motion or an ex parte application?"

It was painfully obvious that this poor kid was way out of his league and the prosecutor was a monumental douche bag attacking the defenseless kid who, still shaking and obviously bewildered, simply read the prepared statement again. The back and forth went on for a few minutes with the prick of a judge just sitting there watching. I knew exactly what the kid's lawyer's intent was and so did everyone else in the room. I almost stood up and yelled at the prosecutor and judge to put a stop to the abuse, but I wasn't about to go to jail for a stranger, no matter how much of a travesty of justice it was. And I know that's not the judge's job, but c'mon. He wouldn't have broken any rules by helping to clarify the kid's message that was obvious to anyone with a pulse.

In the end, there was some kind of summary judgement against the kid who walked out looking like a deer caught in headlights. It was disgusting.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 66,982
Loc: Uncanny Valley
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16743369 - 08/27/12 02:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

It wasn't a summary judgment, and traffic court is hardly court...the judges aren't even usually real judges.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16743394 - 08/27/12 02:34 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Well, it was a criminal traffic case, but yeah I don't know if that kind of abuse takes place with a serious criminal charge. I'd hope not, but nothing I've learned about the legal system convinces me that it doesn't.

It was still a deeply disturbing experience.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineFacepalm L Jackson
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Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 5
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Diploid]
    #16743402 - 08/27/12 02:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have a friend who was recently caught for shoplifting (no previous record). He pled guilty and was sentenced to community service and probation, with the understanding that his conviction would be expunged in the future.

His lawyer has mentioned that he may have more trouble finding a job in the future because his crime is classified as one of "moral turpitude." Have you ever encountered this distinction in your practice or are you aware of it having an impact on background checks/jobs?

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Facepalm L Jackson]
    #16743468 - 08/27/12 02:46 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Theft is a crime of moral turpitude, and yes...it can make it harder to get a job.  An expungement will help, of course...

Also, it's not against the law (usually) to lie on an application.  When it is expunged, he can always just say it never happened.


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Offlinechrissake
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16749567 - 08/28/12 05:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have a question. Say someone is pulled over by a trooper for illegal window tint. It also turned out the guy had his out of state license suspended (and he was unaware of this fact). The cop hands him 2 citations, one for the tint, one for the suspended license. The cops end up weasling a search of the car by calling a dog, after the guy already had his citations in hand. Drugs are found in the trunk, and the guy is arrested and thrown in jail. He makes gets his bond paid and gets out. He shows up for the court date on the citation for the illegal tint. The court does not have any record of the illegal tint charge, and it is not found in an online database, although all the other offenses are there. Are there any rights here? The guy is awaiting trial right now, and having a hard time hiring a competent lawyer. If the original reason for the stop is non-existent, which resulted in a printed citation that the guy still has, and there is no record of it anywhere, is there any chance of a dismissal based on that fact? I know that obviously some people get pulled over for a tail light that never would have resulted in any kind of ticket, and end up getting busted for drugs. But what about this situation where a ticket was printed and given to the guy, before ever being asked to search, and now suddenly it doesn't even show up anywhere, as if they just dropped that charge and only gave the serious ones? He is really looking for a way out of this, and as said, having a hard time finding a competent lawyer (current lawyer is about as worthless as possible).

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
    #16749610 - 08/28/12 05:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

He can try a motion to suppress, but I don't see that there is much hope of that.  The fact that the window tint charge is dropped doesn't matter.  They don't have to prosecute every charge that is possible. 

I'm curious as to why you think the lawyer is worthless.  I normally hear this from people who are not getting enough coddling from their lawyer.  What exactly do you think he should be doing?  The police have an open and shut case against this guy, so it's not clear to me what the lawyer should be doing other than trying to get the best deal possible...which won't be great under these circumstances.


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Offlinechrissake
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16749671 - 08/28/12 05:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

But he has the citation in hand. They gave him his citations, at that point he should have been free to go, right? Do cops have legitimate basis for suspicion of criminal activity based on refusal to consent to a search? Also considering that the officer asked after citations were given and the person should have been free to go.

Well his lawyer is a total pussy, very soft spoken. He goes in to the prosecutors office before trial, listens to her talk for a minute, then comes out and says something like "she is not willing to change anything". He doesn't make an argument at all on behalf of his client. He doesn't seem to do anything at all. Yeah, maybe the guy is screwed, but they also arrested and charged the guy's wife with the same drug charges, and intent to distribute, to boot, which there should be no way it can be proven that she was even involved, or that either of them were intending to distribute. He doesn't do shit, but show up and pass along a message. He fails to respond to his clients questions outside of court, also.

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Offlinechrissake
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Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: chrissake]
    #16749694 - 08/28/12 05:38 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Honestly, this guy would have been better off with the public defender he was assigned, however his family paid (WAY) over $1,000 in bond, so he was disqualified from having one.

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