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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16543612 - 07/17/12 08:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Here's something that's been bugging me.

I have a friend who worked at a pharmacy and got caught pinching pain pills. He was also stealing general merchandise and cash.

He got arrested and when the cops started to question him, he followed the Golden Rule: he asked for a lawyer and refused to answer.

But then the cops lied to him. They told him that if he gave them a full written confession, they would only charge him with the drug charge and he'd probably get off with probation and a withhold if he completes probation.

They also told him that if did DIDN'T confess and insisted on talking to a lawyer, they would charge with multiple charges, one for each case of stolen drugs, merchandise theft, and cash theft.

So in summary, the cops told him that if he confessed, there's be a single charge and likely no jail. If he insisted on a lawyer, there would be dozens of charges.

He signed a confession for fear of the consequences if he demanded a lawyer.

Does he have any recourse or are the cops allowed to do this?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16543787 - 07/17/12 09:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

They should at least fill it up before returning it, eh?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16558882 - 07/20/12 08:13 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You have to tell the police your name even if you're stopped without cause as you walk around legally in a public space?

Damn!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16591344 - 07/26/12 09:14 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Say I'm caught selling drugs and my laptop where I keep the contact info for all my customers and accounts is confiscated. The cops (or a judge) find that I use encryption to protect my data and they demand my password.

Can I be compelled to give up the password? Considering that I'm being asked to give up the content of my mind, it reads like testifying against myself. On the other hand, passwords have been likened to keys in my pocket which can be confiscated to open a safe containing incriminating documents.

What if my password is the phrase "I am a drug dealer." and so by giving up my password, I've now been compelled to give a confession without consent?

I know there is still very little case law, but what's your take on how this will eventually be resolved?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16598242 - 07/27/12 07:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So I'm arrested and convicted of some crime. Then I apply for a job somewhere and a records company finds the conviction in my background check. At some point I manage to get the record sealed or expunged, but the records company is still aware that it once existed and keeps it in their database.

Now I apply for another job and, although the record officially doesn't exist, the records company still has it in their database and tells the employer that in fact I was convicted even though the official record doesn't exist any more. So I don't get the job.

Am I fucked or do I have recourse to demand the records company erase their knowledge of my now-sealed or expunged conviction?

Also, what if a state judge orders the record sealed, but the FBI doesn't do it and it remains a matter of public information. Do I have any recourse in this case?

Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions. You rock. :thumbup:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16600308 - 07/27/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I believe i have the answer for the forced disclosure of a password. Simply say "i forgot".

That won't work if the judge doesn't believe you.

If you can convince the judge, then you're good to go. But ask yourself if you would believe it if YOU were the judge. Some guy is traveling around with a test laptop to test encryption software? Seems pretty far-fetched to me. If you're testing it, why are you traveling with it? Shouldn't it be back on your bench where you can, you know, test it and stuff, not in your luggage at an airport?

Would YOU believe that story? I wouldn't. I'd lock you up for contempt. Especially of some cop testifies that he saw you using it recently.

even a month or two on contempt will be much better

I don't believe there is any limit on how long you can be jailed for contempt if you refuse to cooperate.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16610359 - 07/29/12 11:17 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You are missing the whole point. You are willing to cooperate but not able due to forgetting something.

And you're missing my whole point too. That will not fly if the judge believes you are lying about forgetting the password. It may be plausible on a computer you put in the closet last year and haven't used since, but not on your laptop you're carrying with you. Judges aren't stupid.

As for the airport scenario, it was taken from a recent case where a cop saw a guy looking at kiddy porn on his laptop then conveniently "forgot" his password. The judge called bullshit. Guess where he's spending quality time right now?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: johnm214]
    #16610506 - 07/29/12 11:55 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I really fail to see the problem if some pervert has dirty pictures- it seems silly to think that in itself is a crime.

You think that's bad, in some cases even a pencil drawing of kiddy porn can land you in jail. :wtf:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16610664 - 07/29/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Computer generated images are now so good, that you can't tell the difference without a careful examination. It's prompted thought-police laws like this one:

Wiki:

In response to Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, Congress passed the PROTECT Act of 2003 (also dubbed the Amber Alert Law) and it was signed into law on April 30, 2003 by then president George W. Bush.[50] The law enacted 18 U.S.C. § 1466A, which criminalizes material that has "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture or painting", that "depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct and is "obscene" or "depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in ... sexual intercourse ... and lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value".

By its own terms, the law does not make all simulated child pornography illegal, only that found to be obscene or lacking in serious value. And mere possession of said images is not a violation of the law unless it can be proven that they were transmitted through a common carrier, such as the mail or the internet, or transported across state lines.[51] There is also an affirmative defense made for possession of no more than two images with "reasonable steps to destroy" the images or reporting and turning over the images to law enforcement.[52]

On December 18, 2008 the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals affirmed the conviction.[57] The court stated that "it is not a required element of any offense under this section that the minor depicted actually exists." Attorneys for Mr. Whorley have said that they will appeal to the Supreme Court.[58][59] The request for rehearing was denied on June 15, 2009 and the petition for his case to be reviewed by the Supreme Court was denied on January 11, 2010.[60]

In October 2008, Neil Gaiman and the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund became involved with the case of Christopher Handley. In 2009, Handley pled guilty to the charges and in February 2010 was sentenced to six months in prison.[62]

In October 2010, a 33 year old Idaho man, Steven Kutzner, entered into a plea agreement concerning images of child characters from the American animated television show, The Simpsons engaged in sexual acts.[63][64] In January 2011, Kutzner was sentenced to serve 15 months in federal prison.

So far Christopher Handley has been the only person found guilty of possession under laws against artificial depictions that was not also under investigation for child pornography involving real minors.[


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge]
    #16612460 - 07/29/12 06:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A judge can order many things but if someone is broke they can not be held indefinitely for failure to pay a fine or other court ordered payment.

So what? If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up. I don't understand what part EXACTLY of that I have wrong. Can you tell me? It's a simple direct question.

Obviously if a cop saw you opening a file and then close it and claim you can't open it again, the judge will be very skeptical in that situation you made up. Most things are not so cut and dry.

Well, if you're walking around with your laptop, it's almost as cut a dry. Why would you be walking around with a useless laptop you can't access because you forgot the password? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you're lying.

The story is air tight and if the contents of the file will put you away for a felony, would you rather take a chance on misdemeanor contempt of court or do some hard time with a felony?

It depends on how serious the judge is and how long I'm likely to get if convicted.

I happen to think locking people up for years or decades for looking at dirty pictures is an abomination

Preaching to the choir, but that doesn't change the facts as I've put them on the table. If the judge doesn't believe you, he'll lock you up and there is no limit in principle to how long that can be for.

If *I* were the judge and some rapist-murderer was about to walk free  because he "conveniently" forgot his password, I'll rot in my grave before I let him go. Period. The the law pretty much backs the judge up on that.

Your mileage may vary.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: KEEPYOURAIDSAWAY]
    #16612828 - 07/29/12 07:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty sure he also defends innocent people accused of child rape.

I for one would be grateful for the help if falsely accused and a world of sself-righteous jerks prejudged me because, god dammit, someone must pay even if I didn't do it. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16620883 - 07/31/12 07:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So I'm indicted of a crime but I have too much money to qualify for a PD. However, I am unwilling to spend my meager life's savings buying a lawyer another boat and so I do not seek representation. I also refuse pro se.

My consistent and only response to any question is "I don't know because I don't have an legal representation to help me formulate a response."

How does the court proceed now? Am I not entitled to an attorney even if I refuse to pay for one? If I'm convicted, do I have recourse for appeal having no defense, not even pro se?

It seems like an incredibly fucked up system that I'm thrown to the mercy of a complex, almost incomprehensible legal machine and the only way to protest my innocence is to spend large sums of money an an expert in the workings of that machine.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16621743 - 07/31/12 11:34 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

And people ask me why I'm ashamed of my country, trash jury summonses, and refuse to vote any more. :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #16621945 - 07/31/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

My point was that a non willful refusal to comply is not going to get any long jail term

Where have I said otherwise?

and i said this was assuming the contents of the encrypted section would put you away for a long time

That is the assumption in this whole discussion, yes. We're not talking about your laptop containing proof of petty theft. Are you reading the same thread I'm reading?

In any case, while unlikely, the judge CAN in fact put you away for contempt for refusing to come up with a five cent receipt implicating you in petty theft of five cents. Unlikely, but it can happen and stranger things have.

Even carrying it to an airport would not be proof you had the password

Once again, are you reading the same thing I'm reading? We're not talking about proof. We're talking about whether or not a judge thinks you're full of shit. That's different than proof.

The judge may "think" you know it but absent any evidence to support that idea, i can't see any serious time involved here.

Then you don't understand contempt.

The judge is close to godlike and and "evidence to support that" is up to his opinion. There is due process but the bar is low. He just decides you're in contempt and chances are you will be. You don't even have to have done something demonstrably wrong. If the judge even thinks you're even being DISRESPECTFUL, he can lock you up and again with no time limit in principle.

You can be jailed for contempt if you so much as pick your nose or read a newspaper while waiting for your case to come up in his court room. This HAS happened for exactly reading a newspaper. Others have gone to jail because their cell phone rang during court.

Boswell found three people in contempt of court because they initially refused to say who had the ringing phones. -- Wave


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Celestial Traveler] * 1
    #16622020 - 07/31/12 12:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Celestial Traveler,

If you've never watched them, take a look at these videos:

http://www.nevergetbusted.com/

The guy is an ex-narcotics cop who saw the light and stopped locking people up for having a plant in their pocket. He gets into a lot of the details of how probable cause and reasonable suspicion work in the real world of day to day police work.

Anyone who has anything to do with drugs on any level should watch them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Celestial Traveler] * 1
    #16622075 - 07/31/12 12:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I bought all his videos and sent a donation on top of that. You know the pigs got his kids taken away from him because they were pissed when he exposed their corruption?

Fucked up.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16628534 - 08/01/12 02:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'd move out. This sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil]
    #16632725 - 08/02/12 08:57 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

So I'm 18 and meet a hot girl online who tells me she's 16 but is actually 13. In my state it's legal for a 16 year old to have sex with an 18 year old. We hook up and fuck, then get caught. The girl then admits to the cops that she told me she was 16.

What happens to me? Am I responsible for checking the ID of everyone I fuck or does her admitted lie about her age get me off the hook?

My question is inspired by this.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Enlil] * 3
    #16632936 - 08/02/12 09:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, thanks again. As usual a comprehensive and definitive answer. You keep this up and you're going to change my mind about lawyers. :razz:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Ask a defense attorney [Re: Anonymous #9]
    #16654183 - 08/06/12 03:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think $10K would even cover the initial retainer for a serious criminal case.

One drug dealer I used to know told me that he had a half-million dollar retainer with his lawyer paid up front so he'd hit the ground running if anything happened. I never new him to lie.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Extras: Unfilter Print Post Top
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