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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Why is stealing wrong?
    #15907757 - 03/06/12 06:36 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I struggle with issues of "right" and "wrong."  In the past, I have been a staunch moral relativist.  For the past few years, however, I have become much more hard lined than I used to be.

My question arises out of a discussion in another thread.  I made the argument that morality requires one to follow society's laws.  In response, I got a lot of people telling me that legality and morality are unrelated.

So, it got me to thinking about property.  The concept of "ownership" is a social construct.  We only own things because our social structure and laws have created the system of ownership. 

So if morality and legality are unrelated, does that mean that it's okay to steal someone else's property?  If ownership is just a legal framework, then why would going against that framework be immoral?

I really want to hear from people who believe that you can consistently break the law while still acting morally.  Do you think stealing is wrong?  Why or why not?


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InvisibleHashbuble
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Enlil]
    #15907769 - 03/06/12 06:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Universal moral laws, are not mans laws, but laws of a higher intelligence. They are the laws not written in a book, they are written in all of our hearts, if you can see the truth in this I believe it will guide you to enlightenment.


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Enlil]
    #15907776 - 03/06/12 06:45 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

If you wouldn't want it done to you, don't do it. Its simple. That's how I determine my morals.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907777 - 03/06/12 06:46 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashbuble said:
Universal moral laws, are not mans laws, but laws of a higher intelligence. They are the laws not written in a book, they are written in all of our hearts, if you can see the truth in this I believe it will guide you to enlightenment.




That's just it...I can't.

I don't see any evidence of anything resembling a "higher intelligence."  I see 6 billion people desperately looking for meaning and order in a word that is indifferent to their existence.


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InvisibleHashbuble
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Yheringaan]
    #15907780 - 03/06/12 06:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yheringaan said:
If you wouldn't want it done to you, don't do it. Its simple. That's how I determine my morals.



That is an excellent lifestyle choice, I know it will bring you much happiness


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Yheringaan]
    #15907784 - 03/06/12 06:49 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yheringaan said:
If you wouldn't want it done to you, don't do it. Its simple. That's how I determine my morals.




Golden rule morality is popular, but it doesn't really help on the larger scale...There are tons of things that I wouldn't necessarily mind having done to me which, nonetheless, others might.


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InvisibleHashbuble
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Enlil]
    #15907786 - 03/06/12 06:50 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Hashbuble said:
Universal moral laws, are not mans laws, but laws of a higher intelligence. They are the laws not written in a book, they are written in all of our hearts, if you can see the truth in this I believe it will guide you to enlightenment.




That's just it...I can't.

I don't see any evidence of anything resembling a "higher intelligence."  I see 6 billion people desperately looking for meaning and order in a word that is indifferent to their existence.



I use to be like you, but I have had deep divine experiences that I could not ignore. Once you KNOW, their is no going back.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907797 - 03/06/12 06:55 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashbuble said:
Universal moral laws, are not mans laws, but laws of a higher intelligence. They are the laws not written in a book, they are written in all of our hearts, if you can see the truth in this I believe it will guide you to enlightenment.





What a crock of sanctimonious shit. :haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907799 - 03/06/12 06:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It already has:thumbup:

Op,you will find the answers you seek. Just don't give up.


Enlil: I do not disagree with what you are saying. But by me living this way, a balance is struck between how I treat myself and the external world. This balance gives me a solid base to branch out further I feel. What path one walks, doesn't always take another where they should go however.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907801 - 03/06/12 06:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashbuble said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Hashbuble said:
Universal moral laws, are not mans laws, but laws of a higher intelligence. They are the laws not written in a book, they are written in all of our hearts, if you can see the truth in this I believe it will guide you to enlightenment.




That's just it...I can't.

I don't see any evidence of anything resembling a "higher intelligence."  I see 6 billion people desperately looking for meaning and order in a word that is indifferent to their existence.



I use to be like you, but I have had deep divine experiences that I could not ignore. Once you KNOW, their is no going back.




So then we're still back to moral relativism...You feel a morality in your "heart," whatever that means.  I don't.  Does that mean that morals are different for me and you?  You say that they are "universal," but you add that they are "written in all of our hearts."  I can only assume that you mean that figuratively...so what about the rest of us to can't "read" our hearts or read them differently than you do?

Quote:


What a crock of sanctimonious shit.





That too


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Edited by Enlil (03/06/12 07:00 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907802 - 03/06/12 06:59 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:



I use to be like you, but I have had deep divine experiences that I could not ignore. Once you KNOW, their is no going back.





Get over yourself dude.  I used to be like you but then woke up. :ass:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Icelander]
    #15907804 - 03/06/12 07:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Lets hear your thoughts then, friend. If you feel so sure of your self as to put down anothers system of belief, that is.


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Goin where the water, tastes like wine..


Edited by Yheringaan (03/06/12 07:02 AM)


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InvisibleHashbuble
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Icelander]
    #15907808 - 03/06/12 07:01 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

"Once in awhile you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right".


                              -GD


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907810 - 03/06/12 07:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

:grin:


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Yheringaan]
    #15907817 - 03/06/12 07:10 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Well this is getting nowhere...I was trying to elicit responses grounded in some sort of philosophical theory or structure.  Instead, I hear how morals are written in my heart and I need to follow the golden rule.

I understand that there are those that believe in a higher power.  I understand that some of those that do believe in a higher power also believe that morals are defined by that higher power...this is obvious..

I don't subscribe to a higher power and never will.  So I'm looking for a way to navigate this stuff that does not require it.


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InvisibleHashbuble
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907824 - 03/06/12 07:13 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

The world is full of dark and light. Light is much more powerful than dark. After all dark has no effect on light, but light always illuminates the dark. Although beleiving and having faith in something defies all logic.I have crossed the line of sanity into madness, and this is where I am comfortable, in the chaos of beleiving in something of a higher intelligence than the singular mind.


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Edited by Hashbuble (03/06/12 07:15 AM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Hashbuble]
    #15907827 - 03/06/12 07:14 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Hashbuble said:
The world is full of dark and light. Light is much more powerful than dark. After all dark has no effect on light, but light always illuminates the dark. Although beleiving and having faith in something defies all logic.I have crossed the line of sanity into madness, and this is where I am cofortable, in the chaos of beleiving in something of a higher intelligence than the singular mind.




Excellent...now that we've gotten that out of the way, I can dismiss your comments as being completely inapplicable to my question and my desire to learn.


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Enlil]
    #15907829 - 03/06/12 07:16 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm sorry I seem to be of no help. Look inwards is all I can tell you, and do what feels right.




Hashbubble- ordo ab chao. Order from chaos. By knowing insanity you will know sanity.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Yheringaan]
    #15907842 - 03/06/12 07:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Yheringaan said:
I'm sorry I seem to be of no help. Look inwards is all I can tell you, and do what feels right.




Hashbubble- ordo ab chao. Order from chaos. By knowing insanity you will know sanity.




I'm not trying to figure out what to "do"...My path is pretty much set.  I took an oath which requires me to abide by the laws of my nation and state, in addition to a professional code of ethics..that trumps any personal sense of morality that I might have anyway..

I'm trying to figure out the mindset...Trying to figure out what makes a person think it's okay to break laws pertaining to drugs, but not break other laws...


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Edited by Enlil (03/06/12 07:22 AM)


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OfflineYheringaan
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Re: Why is stealing wrong? [Re: Enlil]
    #15907852 - 03/06/12 07:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Because doing drugs affects me and me only when ingested(for the most part), killing/raping/stealing effects others.


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