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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15888969 - 03/02/12 03:29 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You quote me, then basically repeat exactly what I said, and have been saying all along. Either you are terribly lost and dont know what it is you believe... which is ok.. or      you are not actually reading what I am saying. Or perhaps you just concede.




Except I'm taking what you're saying to its logical conclusions... you're not. You're inserting some mythical notion of freedom into it that doesn't exist. Which is why you've what to give a coherent answer to... again, hate to sound like a broken record, "free from what?"


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15889021 - 03/02/12 03:59 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

No..... you are trying to make logical conclusions... but are failing. Due to the fact you don't actually read what I'm saying.


You have repeated my points in your own posts, it is as if you are not reading what is being said, just responding as the thoughts pop into your head.

Quote:

All they are saying is "just because our decisions are caused by prior events, doesnt mean we dont make those decisions"


And the response to that would be "just because we make those decisions, doesn't mean they weren't caused by prior events" hence... determinism! In this universe, most people agree that causes occur first, you're attempt to put the effect first. Not allowed.


you see what you did there? I didn't imply a temporal order at all. I implied that those two facts do not exclude each other... not that one precedes the other.

Then you reply by reversing what I said... which still doesnt imply a temporal order, it just repeats the same fact. 

If I go all the way back I can show you exactly what you have done wrong in each response.

You are not drawing logical conclusions, you are extracting pieces of my post, then responding to them as if I am implying something else altogether.

I say "I have explained this already".... "No you havent"

WTF... yes i did. How is that a logical conclusion? If you read what I write straight after that, then go back to the thread in which you originally asked the question... you will see  in fact I did give the explanation.


Then you take that explanation, and say "well that is still determinism"... which is precisely my point, that the two are compatible.

You trollin' or what?


And no, i am not equating freedom with complexity, although that freedom is caused by complexity.

The sense that I am saying our will is free, is not that it is free from determinism. It is free in the context of human experience.

When we look at other animals, they seem imprisoned by the instinctual drives... when we look at ourselves, we seem to have more options. This can be said to be freedom of will.

You repeatedly ignore what I have said in order to establish your point.. or as far as anyone can tell, a lack thereof.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15889065 - 03/02/12 04:48 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

you see what you did there? I didn't imply a temporal order at all. I implied that those two facts do not exclude each other... not that one precedes the other.

Then you reply by reversing what I said... which still doesnt imply a temporal order, it just repeats the same fact.



:thisfuckinguy:

That's the problem, one DOES precede the other, and you're refusing to acknowledge that. Causes ALWAYS precede their effects. Otherwise, the effect is uncaused, and then it's no longer effect. It's a random phenomenon -- which is diametrically opposed to materialism.  Maybe there's too much pride tied up in this thread, so an unbiased referee is needed, or perhaps a fight to the death. I've not only read everything you've said, but answered it. And all you say is "you're not listening"...

For any event or occurrence, there is either a cause, or there isn't. If there is a cause, then you should be able to identify that cause.

Quote:

Then you take that explanation, and say "well that is still determinism"... which is precisely my point, that the two are compatible.




This is why no one (apart from random people on message boards, that is) takes compatibilism seriously. There is no concrete definition of freedom. You hold to all the same tenants as determinists -- only determinists are aware of the implications of those beliefs, and compatibilists are not.

It's the same reason when faced with the pivotal question of "free from what" there is no direct answer. You veer off into compatibilist rabbit-trailing like "but a decision is still made" and whatnot. But you still can't answer that. No compatibilist can, which is why no one has adopted the view since the dawn of modern science, and understood the implications of cause/effect.

I went through the trouble, point by point, of showing that your last pseudo-explanation was not an answer. You said complexity is the cause of free-will... so how so? Free from what? If complexity is the key to this, then explain exactly what complexity frees the will from if not physical cause and effect?


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15889092 - 03/02/12 05:08 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You come here and try to prove non-physical realms by stating that mathematical philosophy has proven the realism of mathematical objects. Admitting you don't have the expertise to defend those arguments.

This is like somebody arguing for the existence of god by referring to the body of philosophical arguments for the existence of god, without being able to defend those arguments... which can be debunked as mere word games, with no bearing on the state of reality.

Even if those arguments are true and sound and I can agree, they still dont prove the existence of 'other realms' Just that things may exist in reality and still be intangible. I would argue that any such thing is the result of cognitive processes :shrug:

More to the point it certainly does not prove the existence of non-physical beings.



But lets go right back..

The only point you have made, which just so happens to be the one you refuse to address, was that 'Free Will' is only a valid discussion in metaphysical terms.

I use capitals in Free Will because you maintain that the use of the expression is exclusive to a metaphysical debate that is thousands of years old. You maintain also that the expression loses meaning without a metaphysical framework to discuss it.

To a certain extent, I agree. If you definition of Free Will, relies upon irrational concepts, then I would refute your definition.

But what is it that is actually being referred to? I gave my definition of will and freedom, both of which are things that all people can point to and agree to exist in the world. Seemingly a deterministic world would conflict with those experiences... but I would argue, only if you still maintain irrational concepts such as the soul and self as 'other' than part of the physical world.

It is fine if you have a metaphysical worldview, I dont mind what you want to think. But you state that Free Will exists, and that it depends upon metaphysical concepts. All I want is for you to put forth your reasons for believing this. Otherwise, there is nothing to discuss.

I assume define Free Will as a will or 'mind' that is independant of the physical world.

My only point is that these concepts are irrational from the start, and therefore the debate is pointless in those terms. Therefore, the debate must move from those terms to a strict definition of those terms that only imply the 'thing' that is in question... in this case , the human sense of having the ability to make decisions, and whether that 'will' can be said to be free.

I say it can by a relativistic point of view. In the same way a civilian can be called free, relative to a man in prison. You may argue that the civilian is a prisoner of society, but he is still free relative to something else.

A worthy discussion regardless of anyone's definition of 'free'.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15889105 - 03/02/12 05:17 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saintphotios said:
That's the problem, one DOES precede the other, and you're refusing to acknowledge that. Causes ALWAYS precede their effects. Otherwise, the effect is uncaused, and then it's no longer effect. It's a random phenomenon -- which is diametrically opposed to materialism.  Maybe there's too much pride tied up in this thread, so an unbiased referee is needed, or perhaps a fight to the death. I've not only read everything you've said, but answered it. And all you say is "you're not listening"...

For any event or occurrence, there is either a cause, or there isn't. If there is a cause, then you should be able to identify that cause.





I dont deny cause and effect. (without getting into improbablities etc)

My staements was that "Just because the world is deterministic, doesn't mean we dont make decisions"

In that statement I have not implied a temporal order. I am not saying "Our decisions precede the effect of a cause"

That would be paradoxical. But I didnt say that.

I am simply equating the determined, physical processes that underpin decision making with the fact that people make decisions.

The subjective experience of those physical processes as they happen, does not come into conflict with the fact that they occur.

Duh.

See.... you are just plain old wrong. again.


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15889109 - 03/02/12 05:18 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Great... so basically your position is that people make decisions. No shit? How long did you have to mull it over before arriving at this revelation?

:jokerclap:


EDIT: btw, there's absolutely no difference at all in your position and that of determinism. Keep it up if you like, but there's really no point in insisting that you believe in free-will. fyi, determinism doesn't deny that people make decisions.


Edited by saintphotios (03/02/12 05:28 AM)


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15889137 - 03/02/12 05:32 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, and if you put the metaphysical bullshit aside, that is all the debate boils down to.

You keep saying "freedom from what"

As if I am adhering to a beliefe that our will is free at all.

If you go back to the other thread and actually read it, you will see that I was only stating that humans have will, the ability to make decisions. I only went on to discuss the freedom of will because another member asked whether our will can be considered free.

I was simply putting forth possible examples of how our will can be said to be free, which it can, relative to other animals. This is the point of discussion.

But seeing as you have a special definition of Free Will, which you claim to exist and to be reliant on metaphysical concepts.. how about you address your own position on the matter?

Whether you think my conclusions are pointless, matters not to me. :shrug:


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15889160 - 03/02/12 05:44 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

saintphotios said:
EDIT: btw, there's absolutely no difference at all in your position and that of determinism. Keep it up if you like, but there's really no point in insisting that you believe in free-will. fyi, determinism doesn't deny that people make decisions.





Can you please sum up what exactly you think my position is?

I was the one taking a deterministic stance. I was also taking a materialistic stance, a compatabilist stance and an atheist stance.

There is no conflict because that is my stance.

I believe Free Will, must be defined without concepts such as the soul, because they are irrational.
I believe free will must be defined at all because humans feels as if they have it.
I define free will as our ability to make decisions which has the freedom to take a deliberate course of action. That it is free depends on what you want to class as free. Though I belive our will can be said to be free.
I believe that view of the experience of decision making, is not in conflict with my deterministic view, nor my atheistic view.

:shrug:

Regardless of what you think of my views, they are sound and you have not put forward your metaphysical explanations for scrutiny.

So well done, you have acheived letting everyone know you have a metaphysical worldview that you cant be bothered to defend, and that you take philosophy classes.

:thumbup:

Heres to getting to know one another!

Shalom


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15891537 - 03/02/12 05:34 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Can you please sum up what exactly you think my position is?

I was the one taking a deterministic stance. I was also taking a materialistic stance, a compatabilist stance and an atheist stance.




Ok let me put it this way... determinism is generally thought to be opposed to indeterminism(free-will). The fact that compatibilism even exists as a concept is proof enough of this (bc if the two positions weren't opposed from the start, there would be nothing to make compatible).

Now given this, in order for someone to adopt the position of free-will, in order to even come up with the term, there would have to be actual points of disagreement between their position and that of determinism. That's why I have a problem with compatibilism... there are no points of disagreement between compatibilists and determinists. Compatibilists just use the word "free-will" in a different way than indeterminists(which have actual disagreements with determinists). If there are no points of disagreement between two position, then they aren't actually two positions. They're just one position going by two different names, serving no purpose other than to muddle the discussion (nowhere more evident than in this thread).

We all know that humans have a "will"... the only justification for tagging on "free" to the beginning of that is to distinguish it from the type of determined will espoused by determinism. Compatibilists have nothing to distinguish themselves from that type of will, as they agree with determinists on every single point, so there's no reason to say that it's "free-will". The only thing that could possibly separate one's view from the type of will espoused by determinism is the introduction of metaphysics.

I understand you think metaphysics is absurd, and that it makes no sense... but nonetheless, it's the only thing that would introduce a new meaning to the type of will adhered to by determinism (and so-called compatibilists), justifying tagging on "free" to the beginning of "will".

Hopefully that was a little more clear... because the real disagreement here is about terminology.

Quote:

I believe Free Will, must be defined without concepts such as the soul, because they are irrational.



Right... I get that. I'm hoping that I showed above why there's no reason to add "free" to the beginning of it. Because it either 1.) implies something that you as a determinist don't really believe 2.)or it's redundant, because by "free" you just mean that we make decisions based on our will, which would make "free-will" synonymous with saying "will-will"... it's redundant. That's my point.

Quote:

I believe free will must be defined at all because humans feels as if they have it.



Yes, but again, adding "free" to the beginning doesn't say anything about that feeling that simply saying "will" lacks.

Quote:

I define free will as our ability to make decisions which has the freedom to take a deliberate course of action.



Right, and again, as I hope I made clear, the word "will" implies that very same deliberate course of action -- no need to add free.

.........So anyway, you might ask why metaphysics allows the use of "free-will" without redundancy that determinism has. The reason adding "free" to the term "will" upon the introduction of metaphysics is that metaphysics is a dualist position. It often adheres to non-physical entities like the "soul" and the "mind" apart from the physical brain. Again, I know you think that's nonsense, but that's beside the point here of why it uses the term "free-will" instead of just "will". Now for materialists, ultimately our will has a causal relationship with the forces of nature. Forces of nature determine what our "will" will ultimately be, and there can be no other causes, because the forces of nature and material is all that exists. For the dualist, forces like the soul and mind are not physical. So if they happen to take the position that there is a causal relationship between our soul and our will, or our metaphysical mind and our will, the only reason they would say "free-will" is to say that our "will" has a causal relationship with something else other than merely physical forces. Without the addition of those non-physical forces, saying "free-will" would also be redundant. And this is why in the other thread, I said that using terminology like "free-will" only applies to dualists. If you're a materialist, it's just being redundant.


Edited by saintphotios (03/02/12 05:35 PM)


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15891642 - 03/02/12 06:00 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Also, you're wanting me to justify a believe in metaphysics, and by extension -- God, if that's what it entails.

Maybe you think shying away from that discussion is a cop-out. But hopefully you'll understand that what you're asking is about 5 separate discussions.

1.)I'd have to prove metaphysics
2.)I'd have to prove epistemically, how we can know of such non-physical forces
3.)I'd have to prove what method we'd use to determine such forces.
4.)I'd have to prove the worldview that positions like metaphysics and theism fit into
5.)What is probably the biggest chore, proving that of the metaphysical entities, that a particular God exists, and if so, which one.

This doesn't even touch on the issue of the will... which is what you were initially wanting an explanation for. Anyone that claims to have simple, brief explanation for these things isn't to be trusted. It's like asking to prove quantum physics. I'd have to first prove every theory leading up to quantum physics to accomplish such a task... there's simply no way to do it briefly and concisely.

That's why it was never my goal to prove free-will... but simply to show that the free-will discussion is only applicable within the sphere of metaphysics. Fair enough?


Edited by saintphotios (03/02/12 06:02 PM)


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OfflineDesert Elf

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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15893527 - 03/03/12 04:42 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Totally agree. In fact that is all you needed to say.

But I hope you agree that the discussion on free will is valid from any standpoint.

So long as you are willing to only look at what free will can be defined as from that standpoint.

The will part is easy because determinism doesnt conflict with the fact that people make decisions.

The free part is tricky because like you say, it refers to the historical usage, of being free from physical causes.

Obviously there would be a conflict there, but the discussion then boils down to "in what sense can we call our will 'free'"

I would say this issue is intertwined with human's feeling as though their decision making is different to that of other animals.

Some might be inclined to say that is because we have a soul which adds a new depth to our consciousness, I would say it is our highly developed cognitive abilities, such as abstract thinking that give us the sense of freedom in our decision making. Even if we remain bound by physical causes.

Of course, if the historical usage of Free Will implies metaphysics, then we have to 'water down' the definition so we are only referring to things we can point to.

shalom


--------------------
Om Bhur Bhuvah Svaha
Tat Savitur Varenyam
Bhargo Devasya Dhimahi
Dhiyo Yo Nah Prachodayat


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Offlineplasma21
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15893710 - 03/03/12 07:38 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Nihilism is the way to go methinks


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: Desert Elf]
    #15897473 - 03/04/12 02:14 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

All these -isms and -ists :wtf:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #15897508 - 03/04/12 02:22 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

There's only one thing to know - your own being, and to know it is to be it, and that is the only way, and that is the only knowledge.

There is nothing else to know. There is no other knowledge.

The universe has no secrets as it is just an empty illusion inside your consciousness; it is not there. All of quantum mechanics and chemistry and what not is all hubris in the context of knowledge of the universe. There is only one thing to know...

It's all a joke, a game, a waste of time, and most of all it is absolutely nothing.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: circastes]
    #15897862 - 03/04/12 04:52 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

No, the universe is, therefor I am :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinesaintphotios
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #15900090 - 03/04/12 05:18 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Obviously there would be a conflict there, but the discussion then boils down to "in what sense can we call our will 'free'"




And this is why I'm in favor of treating determinism and compatibilism as identical... because I think in almost all cases, they would answer this question in the exact same way -- with just slightly different terminology.

Quote:

I would say this issue is intertwined with human's feeling as though their decision making is different to that of other animals.




Yeah, and I think the materialist, in order to avoid inconsistencies, would need to say that while our decision making is more complex than other animals, they ultimately share the same root causes -- natural causes(which I think most would, but using "free-will" terminology makes it seem like there are caveats to those natural causes that neither determinists nor compatibilists would really subscribe to).

Quote:

There's only one thing to know - your own being, and to know it is to be it, and that is the only way, and that is the only knowledge.



:excusemeno: No, you sir, are just high.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Atheist, materialist, theist, lets clarify. [Re: saintphotios]
    #15903818 - 03/05/12 01:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I assume this reply went to circastes :smile:


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