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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality * 3
    #15861140 - 02/25/12 09:39 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Lately I've noticed the people around me are getting married and/or having children. Exponentially faster in fact, according the age algorithm nature and habit bestowed on us bald simians.

Marriage itself is a ritualized belief that has been gradually transposed from a mostly religious right to a highly ceremonial social affair - now embodied in politics (finances, insurance, ownership, etc.). I suppose historically it was also about resource management - hence bride prices, dowries, swapping cattle, building houses, and so on. I could go on, but in simple language I just don't see marriage as symbolic of love or commitment (they stand on their own). It seems like a societal artifact, and a product of the marketplace.

Regarding children: I've been trying to analyze my reactions to children lately to understand if I am too self-absorbed. See, I rather enjoy their company and love playing with them, and even teaching a few things. But there isn't a bone in my body that would ever consider making one. The reasons are multi-faceted. For one, life itself hasn't been all bells and whistles for anyone around. Sure there are some highlights and blissful moments, but it's nothing I see worth repeating (for myself, or for anyone else). Secondly, there are more people in the world than there is love. Doug Stanhope joked that we shouldn't even adopt a baby, that there are plenty of abandoned old people - so 'just adopt an old man!' :lol:

But seriously,

A new article I just saw today:
"One billion people worldwide live in slums, a number that will likely double by 2030."

Part of my mind is telling me I'm selfish for wanting to enjoy my life and forgetting about children or marriage. But another part of me realizes the paradoxical selfish nature of pursuing them. However, in considering how pervasive family life is for establishing your "role" (thanks, Ram Dass) in the world, I fear alienation should I not fold in line. 


What say you, enlightened folks?


Edited by Jessica Swift (02/25/12 10:06 AM)


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15861178 - 02/25/12 09:47 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I'm not enlightened in any way. :jah:
But marriage brings stability which is what i would like.
I wanna find a chick i love and then have many good years together before having these big money investments called children. I hope i wouldn't have to have a wedding. They cost so much and would embarrass the hell out of me.

Exponentially it goes up, your right. People don't want to die alone so they end up with a half-ass love who they have trouble with.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul



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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: King Klick]
    #15861195 - 02/25/12 09:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I just don't see any justifiable reason, personally, to either get married or have children. My happiness should not depend on either case. More so, it seems superfluous to create a situation where even more people create attachments with each other unnecessarily. Company in life is beautiful; love is beautiful; children giggling is like warm sunshine; grandma telling old geezer stories and shitting in her diaper in hilarious.

But there's enough of that already. Millions of years of that, in fact. Writing our name on the chalk board yet again seems like a dog pissing on a tree. It's more like mammalian habit than rational decision-making.

We can't even love our neighbor, or love ourselves. The weapons industry is big business. But somehow we want to retreat from the world, build a fence or buy a cute condo, and create some little room of love with four walls around it. Where has that gotten us?


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift] * 1
    #15861208 - 02/25/12 09:56 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

It has gotten some of us into a better state of mind. :shrug: Relationships kill my depression. And history has repeated lots of things. But we've not been here for millions of years. Closer to a quarter million. The difference is the past is dead and this is all that matters. Going out of the way to seem original seems ridiculous to me.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul



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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: King Klick]
    #15861227 - 02/25/12 10:04 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

King Klick said:
Going out of the way to seem original seems ridiculous to me.




Among other things, originality gives me a reason to live. It's encouraged in every other facet of our society, from literature, to fashion, to free-thinking, to music creation, to architectural design, etc. but suddenly when we get to pair-bonding it's different?

If you go back up, I made several points about avoiding marriage & children. Being a hipster is not among them. :shrug:


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OfflineKing Klick
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15861240 - 02/25/12 10:12 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

That you did not. :jah:
A wifey gives other people a reason to live to though. :shrug: I'm not married so i cannot give the best answer.


--------------------
Your god is dead, and I killed him.

When you’re lost, here I am. Forever with your soul



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Offlinechristopheshea
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: King Klick]
    #15861312 - 02/25/12 10:41 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

i was married, and i think along the same lines, as for over-population, but having a family and children is a very selfish thing when you get down to it, both feeding off eachother until you either grow or grow apart, and when there's children involved, under the monogamy model, it's a disaster waiting to happen, by limiting yourself to one or two people on this planet, you cut off everyone else, so, don't get married, just fall in love and have a good time, if a kid comes along, take care of it, it's only your biological duty, i never thought i was ever gonna have a kid, for that reason, i didn't want the responsibility of a life to make sure it developed into something better than the rest. but, now i just pay child support :P

my wife and i split up, but it wasn't because we didn't love eachother, it's because we doubted the other loved in return. tragic really, but a growing experience.


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OfflineLion
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift] * 1
    #15861314 - 02/25/12 10:42 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For the love of Christ, there are way too many children in the world.  People in the developing world are giving birth at a completely unsustainable rate, while people in the developed world are shoveling the world's resources into their offspring's fat mouths.  It's tragedy.

Also, I agree with what you say about the value of perpetuating human experience.  I do not want to be responsible for bringing another human being into--this.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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Offlinehusmmoor
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift] * 1
    #15861365 - 02/25/12 11:00 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Jessica Swift said:It seems like a societal artifact, and a product of the marketplace.



Who and what isn't? :stoned:

Even solitary masturbation is a social artefact since most people can't enjoy it on their own but need to visualize a whole scene of humans in various postures to get off.

I understand if you don't want to get married and/or have children, but I think you should choose this way because of your gut feeling and/or because you just didn't meet "Mr. Right", not because of some spur-of-the-moment ideology, that I think with your intelligence (a compliment!) you would be able to turn on it's head in a few hours if you felt like it.

Gut feeling is where it's at. Perhaps it's no coincidence this is also where children live the first 3/4 of a trip around the sun.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15861551 - 02/25/12 11:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

No kids, no marriage. Although I have been considering giving a ring for my partner to wear for social purposes. The folks at work call her my wife as it is, even though they're acutely aware that I have no intentions of marrying. I'm more than aware (I focus on it often) that no matter what she will eventually be lost to me and there is no altering that. If it comes sooner, it comes sooner. If it comes later, it comes later. So if I am forced with the situation of deciding with my heart or choosing to keep her around, I'm going to decide with my heart every time. She can go if her heart says differently. And my heart says that marriage is not loving in its current state of affairs. Divorce rates abound and those who aren't divorced often are at each others throats. There is something inherently flawed which seems not to breed love so much as hostility. It could be the person, it could be the system, or as is often the case a horrible combination of the two. 

So I've dedicated myself to acknowledging both and making changes to both. I do not want to feel obligated in any sense of the word. I find that if I need to feel obligated to love, there is something wrong. Love should not be an obligation. It cannot be forced from someone, squeezed out as if they were an orange. And so the first thing I gave myself was the ability to let an absence of love be. This is ironically one of the most self-loving things I have done. To not require another's love. And without that requirement, I see no reason to try and lock someone into loving me 'till death do us part'. The whole concept took on a sense of absurdity when I let go of needing to be loved. It also placed a lot of personal power back into my hands. Being a male I'm somewhat at an advantage here due to financial independence, although that edge is dwindling quickly and perhaps approaching insignificance. So without a pressing financial reason, and without an emotional reason, marriage has fallen away as an option.

And as for children, there is no way I want to birth a child in this world. People often look at me strange when I tell them this. They question it, prod it, try to cast doubt upon it. I expect just that. As a species we'd be long gone if that wasn't the typical response. As for why it isn't my response, I can only list compassion. It hurts so much more to look at bringing a child into this world than to look at not bringing a child into the world. The reasons mount in a hurry. And luckily enough I do not suffer much at all for the decision. On an individual level it does not nag at me, it does not pressure me. On a social level however it can. Over time I have become more adept at moving the experience from my heart to my mind and then out my throat. But at first I couldn't quite explain the reasons. I just knew that a child was not for me and that I would give up even life to stand behind that feeling. Social pressure really pales in comparison to that feeling :lol:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain


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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: husmmoor]
    #15861668 - 02/25/12 12:37 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

husmmoor said:
I understand if you don't want to get married and/or have children, but I think you should choose this way because of your gut feeling and/or because you just didn't meet "Mr. Right", not because of some spur-of-the-moment ideology,




Watching your friends grow up and give birth isn't exactly spur-of-the-moment. I've never been able to relate to it. Just because I parse a few sentence to describe it on a forum doesn't make it a transient thought.

You're right about all of us being societal artifacts. The difference between marriage is heralded as something spiritual and other-worldly. It differs from masturbation (to use your example) in that it signifies the unification of the spirit, rather than the government contract for which it really seems to be more of.


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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Kickle]
    #15861683 - 02/25/12 12:42 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kickle said:





I could relate to much of what you said, Kickle. Thanks for sharing.


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InvisibleyogabunnyM
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: King Klick]
    #15862967 - 02/25/12 06:34 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

King Klick said:
It has gotten some of us into a better state of mind. :shrug: Relationships kill my depression. And history has repeated lots of things. But we've not been here for millions of years. Closer to a quarter million. The difference is the past is dead and this is all that matters. Going out of the way to seem original seems ridiculous to me.





Based on what I have read it seems to me that Jessica is talking about living HER own truth as opposed to the societal norm, and not about "trying to seem original".  I feel this way about marriage and children as well.  It's not what I want.  It's not for me.  At least not in the way that is typical for our society.  I see as human beings that we mate and procreate so mindlessly, as if getting married, having children and a house are girl scout badges or trophies.  This hurts my heart.  We must be more mindful in our relationships, and take care to make sure we are happy with ourselves before entering in to a partnership with someone(s). 

“When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us. When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual failure every relationship we enter.”
― Tom Robbins
 

There are so many children suffering in this world, dying of starvation as I type this.  I cannot imagine bringing a new life into this world with the weight of the knowledge that we cannot even take care of all the beings that are on the planet right now.  It feels selfish, even, to bring more children into this world of suffering. 


So, yeah, I'm with Kickle & Jessica on this one, all the way!

:bunnypeace:


--------------------


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Content of Spirituality [Re: yogabunny]
    #15863105 - 02/25/12 07:07 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

yogabunny said:
We must be more mindful in our relationships, and take care to make sure we are happy with ourselves before entering in to a partnership with someone(s). 

“When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us. When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual failure every relationship we enter.”
― Tom Robbins
 




:thumbup:


--------------------


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Offlinecbub
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15864334 - 02/25/12 11:32 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Part of my mind is telling me I'm selfish




You are what you are, it's not up to the current free will you perceive. It's an illusion you're making for yourself.
Then again, the illusion is reality, because there is nothing else. There is no 'out there', it's just this.
You made your current thoughts at a moment other than this one, although there is only one moment essentially, the eternal now. it's only what you're making out of it. The you that is perceiving is not in control. It's just a ride. But YOU are the one who chose it to be like this, for a very good reason.
You know what I'm talking about, this is just a reminder.

bw. I'm not enlightened and I don't think I want to be.


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InvisibleJessica Swift
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: cbub]
    #15864421 - 02/25/12 11:56 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting insight. :heart:

As for the enlightenment bit, it was just a cute, tongue-in-cheek moniker for us privileged elite here in S&M. :grin:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15865085 - 02/26/12 06:24 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

For one, life itself hasn't been all bells and whistles for anyone around. Sure there are some highlights and blissful moments, but it's nothing I see worth repeating (for myself, or for anyone else).

What say I?  I say you are a rare and rational human in this area at least and you have my greatest respect for doing your part to reduce the suffering in the world.

Stick with your plan. :satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: Marriage and Children in the Context of Spirituality [Re: Jessica Swift]
    #15870651 - 02/27/12 01:06 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I do love the act of two beings saying to each other 'i want to be with you forever' they feel so deeply in love that it gives off a scent of the eternal love & their intentions attempt to mirror that, but i don't really find affinity with any of the marriage ceremonies that i've come across so far, i think that just being with the person you love & telling them that is greater than any ceremony held in honour of saying that

I don't think it would be a righteous act to not bring a child into the world just because of resource issues or something like that, the world is not over populated imo, there is way more than enough resources for all of our needs but never enough for our greed

I also don't see myself having children & would not like to have to ever go through a wedding ceremony but if i fall in love with a girl anything is possible, love has the ability of completey changing your mind, i can see how creating a little baby from your body can create a bond between your body & its body, which can feel great, an emotion worth experiencing for sure, but it's possible to feel this exact emotion towards the whole of creation through enlightenment

Quote:

However, in considering how pervasive family life is for establishing your "role" (thanks, Ram Dass) in the world, I fear alienation should I not fold in line.




To that, i say - fuck it, don't even entertain these thoughts for a second
Your family is the whole of existence


--------------------


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