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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15865546 - 02/26/12 10:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Sloshy substrate is caused by too much water and to fast work. Let the water sink into the verm for 10 minutes or so and then add your fine ground BRF bit by bit. Mix well.

Here is a picture of what youre looking for:





/KD

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15875054 - 02/28/12 07:50 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

A quick update...I never got that camera, but I dumped the jars this morning and shed a little tear for them....to some of your surprise, not really mine, the moisture level in the jars was the same as when I put it in there....when i dumped the jars, the dry verm layer just poured off and the mix stuck in the jar...with a light tap they popped right out, but kept the form of the jar, until you broke it up by hand and it clumped nicely in my hand...you couldn't squeeze any water out, but you couldn't before I put them in the jar either...just clumps nicely...so what you think about that?

I would love your feedback before I proceed with my next set...I think it had to be a bunk syringe

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15875195 - 02/28/12 08:48 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The substrate should not have alot of clumping. This is a indicator that your substrate was overly wet and probably the primary reason why germination was taking so long.

I like to hydrate the vermiculite to field capacity, tilt the bowl until I see a little bit of water pool and then add in the cup of brf for 3.5cups of verm.

Works perfect every time


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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: HybridprX]
    #15875863 - 02/28/12 12:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

wow..that's not like any recipe I heard before, but I bet it colonizes fast that way...does it flush out like normal?

anyways I started over and I followed the Tek recipe, as well as all the previous tips give by readers and hope I get this time

As far as bringing it to field capacity...I did a little test and I went 1 to 1 verm to water and it still wasn't at field capacity or any pooling in the bowl...not sure I am doing different, or maybe due to fine verm...and when I dumped the other jars there wasn't no clumping, just held the shape of the jar till you touched it...then it broke up easily

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15876262 - 02/28/12 01:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

you can test the water content by squeezing the verm. No more than a drop should come out. I bet HybridPrX knew that he just forgot to mention it. I always squeeze my mix after I added the BRF. If it stays a solid shape, its good, if it falls from my hand its too dry.

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: kdmmontana]
    #15876525 - 02/28/12 03:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

thanks Montana...that's what I ended up with...if this dont work, I am getting some new verm

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15876665 - 02/28/12 03:39 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I wanted to give a shout out to Lil' Shop of Spores for replacing the syringe in question, even though there is still some user error doubt, that I went over with them in detail...they have very great customer service...thank you very much!

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15879825 - 02/29/12 05:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I should have added that when you hydrate the vermiculite mix it vigorously to ensure that it has absorbed as much water as possible. If you dont see roughly a spoonful and abit of pooling water then you need to add a few drops until you do. Then when you add the brf it will absorb the excess moisture and bring the substrate to perfect field capacity.


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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: HybridprX]
    #15879873 - 02/29/12 05:56 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

thanks...I'll try that next time

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OfflineStevaz


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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #15879897 - 02/29/12 06:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
How deep is your verm layer?  are you sure you got the syringe below the verm?  the spores will not grow in the verm layer.  It is also possible  that over sterlizing dried out your substrate too much making it inhospitable to the spores.  Did you let the substrate cool properly before you woke up and shot the spores?  usually, if a syringe is bad, its because it is contaminated, not because its void of spores,but it is possible that you got a syringe with nonviable spores or lacking spores.




I don't think it would be possible to dry out your substrate from cooking too long, as long as you don't boil your PC/Pot dry.  As long as you have steam, you have a 100% humid environment outside your jars.  There's no where for that moisture inside the jar to evaporate off to - it would be like staying in a sauna so long you dried off.


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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Stevaz]
    #15880048 - 02/29/12 07:30 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Stevaz said:
Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
How deep is your verm layer?  are you sure you got the syringe below the verm?  the spores will not grow in the verm layer.  It is also possible  that over sterlizing dried out your substrate too much making it inhospitable to the spores.  Did you let the substrate cool properly before you woke up and shot the spores?  usually, if a syringe is bad, its because it is contaminated, not because its void of spores,but it is possible that you got a syringe with nonviable spores or lacking spores.




I don't think it would be possible to dry out your substrate from cooking too long, as long as you don't boil your PC/Pot dry.  As long as you have steam, you have a 100% humid environment outside your jars.  There's no where for that moisture inside the jar to evaporate off to - it would be like staying in a sauna so long you dried off.




Might be difficult with BRF/VERM but you can def cook the moisture out of grain if you over sterilize it.  I have done it before, esp with rye.  the kernels shrivel and dry.  Not sure about the physics of it though.

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #15882030 - 02/29/12 04:41 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

This brings up another question for me...since the spores are hydrated in water, and if you inoculate against the side of the glass, shouldn't you see some sort of colonization, regardless of the substrate moisture level...considering there were no contams and the spores were viable

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15883573 - 02/29/12 10:26 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

yes you will but that water wont last for long

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: kdmmontana]
    #15900914 - 03/04/12 08:38 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well I ditched the old jars and started over with a few experiments...the first batch of 5, I did the same way as before...the second batch of 5, I added more water till there was a little pooling, then went from there...the third batch of 4, I found some new, more coarse verm and was it much easier to deal with

I sterilized all three for 60 minutes and used the same syringe, so I think I have a pretty good test going...we will see which works better for me

I went a little lite on the ms on the first 2 batches, due to lack of confidence...about 3cc for 5 jars...the third batch, I went with a full cc per jar

I also tried my first lc...wish me luck

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OfflineHybridprX
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15902678 - 03/05/12 08:22 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

If your using a pot to steam the pf jars 60 minutes is not sufficient, they require 90.

45-60 minutes if you're using a pressure cooker thats operating between 12-15psi.


--------------------

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: HybridprX]
    #15903017 - 03/05/12 10:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

HybridprX said:
If your using a pot to steam the pf jars 60 minutes is not sufficient, they require 90.

45-60 minutes if you're using a pressure cooker thats operating between 12-15psi.




Ive steamed jars for 30 minutes and they were just fine. However those were 125 ml. The regular ones I usually steamed for an hour and that was fine. For a 500 ml substrate I would sterilize for at least 90 min. Thats just me, but you are correct:)

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: kdmmontana]
    #15928872 - 03/10/12 10:08 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

just wanted to give an update...I check on my jars today and every inoculation point on every jar (except one had signs of growth)...55 out of 56...pretty good turn out...seems like the 3rd batch, with the medium grade verm, is progressing a little faster than the first 2 batches with the vine verm...it was done last and coming in first so far...I expected as much, but glad that I tested it out...I'll let you know if they actually reach 100% first or not...pretty sure they will, since I went a little heavier on the ms in that batch

what have I learned so far...moisture level doesn't matter much for seeing signs of growth when using a ms...achieving full colonization may be a different story though...time will tell

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Offlinekdmmontana
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: Durban.Poison]
    #15928923 - 03/10/12 10:26 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

"moisture level doesn't matter much for seeing signs of growth when using a ms...achieving full colonization may be a different story though...time will tell"




Excellent observation. Too much moisture will cause issues later on, I have myself experienced this and its true. Too much water is never good.

Give us pictures:)

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OfflineDurban.Poison
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Re: Brf hasn't germinated [Re: kdmmontana]
    #15928983 - 03/10/12 11:01 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I figure I have a pretty good test going to see how much is too much, or not enough, or just what will work best for me....I definitely see running into some problems with at least one set, but that's what makes it fun...if everything went perfect all the time, that would be kinda boring to me...think I might add some gypsum next time to see if that changes thing much

A camera is definitely high on my list of must haves

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