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OfflineSan
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Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force
    #15817072 - 02/16/12 02:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Hello everybody. Today I wanted to ask about breeding, specifically for consultation regarding my proposed procedures to go about it. Tell me what you think, and feel free to point out any inconsistencies or logical fallacies I may have overlooked. If you think one of these techniques would work then feel free to try it out yourself. If you don't think one or both of these techniques would work then please explain why in detail.

The steps are as follows:
0.)Set up a grow technique to use for the duration of the experiment. Whatever it may be it has to remain constant to allow results to be compared with minimal interference from environmental factors. A bulk neglect tek with pressured materials may be beneficial in order to cut out any room for human error.

1.)Grow out two common multispore prints, each obtained through different means to ensure the donors are distantly related.

2.)Select one fruit body from each grow based on desired traits

3.) *optional* acquire a clone from fruit bodies and grow out again. You may want to do this so that you know you aren't getting a stray spore for the next two steps:

4.)Print the fruiting bodies from each grow.

5.)Isolate for any number of monokaryons from each grow, keeping them separate and well marked of course

6.)Allow monokaryons from each grow to mate on agar. Discard any unsuccessful pairings

7.)Isolate dikaryon away from the two monokaryons

8.)Grow out new dikaryons

9.)Go back to step 2


This is probably dumb


--------------------
Actually not everyone was a noob.  Being a noob is a very new phenomenon.  Many people, the great majority in fact, were simply "beginners", "novices" or "new to mushroom growing".  Being a "noob" is reserved, and in fact created specifically for and by, the newer, much more lame generations coming about.

-Shpongle1

Edited by San (08/12/14 01:40 AM)

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OfflineSan
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force [Re: San]
    #15817075 - 02/16/12 02:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Breeding through brute force:

1.)Get the best schiznapple hybrid cube superstrains you can find

2.)Mix all those F-ing spores up into one GIANT LC

3.)Grow some mushies

4.)Print the biggest mushie you grew

5.)Mix that print with the latest print your best bud sent you

6.)repeat 3-6 ad infinitum X9000

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: San]
    #15817839 - 02/16/12 09:37 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Off topic in advanced mycology.

Once you go back to spores, you're at square 1 again.  Spores are NOT strains.
RR

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OfflineMYSTIQUE
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15820013 - 02/16/12 06:23 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
Dont know what the fuck I just said? READ THIS
http://www.shroomery.org/5122/The-Shroomery-Mushroom-Glossary
I ain't a hippy but I'm covered in dirt                         
Sippin lots of mushroom tea in a tye-dye shirt
Chasin' the Grateful Dead, no shoes on my feet
Beggin' in the parking lot for something to eat,

:onfire:DO NOT USE FIRE IN YOUR GLOVE BOX!!!!!!!:onfire:

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OfflineSan
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: MYSTIQUE]
    #15821897 - 02/17/12 01:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I was also aware of a mechanism where a monokaryotic mycelium can become a dikaryotic mycelium by nuclear migration and not just at the new growth at the point of mycelial contact.




Forgot to account for nuclear migration. This was sitting there in the back of my head when I wrote this but I couldn't quite figure out what was wrong. Step 7 is therefore useless and should be skipped.

Quote:


Once you go back to spores, you're at square 1 again.  Spores are NOT strains.
RR




Could you explain this one? I understand that the genetic code is scrambled and somewhat randomized when a spore is created, but that's why step 2 is there, to weed out the bad results. Surely if desirable fungi are only bred with desirable fungi the resulting offspring will be less and less undesirable with each successive generation?

Also, I think that if you guys get to discuss box fans in advanced mycology then I should be allowed to discuss genetics. I feel that the move of this thread is arbitrary and not really representative of the consensus on that board.


--------------------
Actually not everyone was a noob.  Being a noob is a very new phenomenon.  Many people, the great majority in fact, were simply "beginners", "novices" or "new to mushroom growing".  Being a "noob" is reserved, and in fact created specifically for and by, the newer, much more lame generations coming about.

-Shpongle1

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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: San]
    #15822149 - 02/17/12 03:43 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In reference to  "4.)Print the fruiting bodies from each grow" in that order you would be starting over, but if you crossed two dikaryons first and then fruited and printed that "cross strain", the resulted prints would not be a complete reset.

I highly doubt you will here back from RR on this one, if you run a search you will find he gives one liners on topics like this and doesn't recognize follow up questions.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14994902#14994902

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15822948 - 02/17/12 11:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I highly doubt you will here back from RR on this one, if you run a search you will find he gives one liners on topics like this and doesn't recognize follow up questions.




That's because with a quick search, you'll find the detailed answer, not a one liner.  I flat-out refuse to type a few full pages of detailed text for every new grower who thinks his time is too important to use the search engine here for questions which have already been answered hundreds of times.  Seek and you shall find.

Knowledge of advanced procedures must be worked very hard on.  They can't be spoon-fed.  My wife and I average 18 hours per day each, working on our mushroom farm and the development of new procedures for growing the maximum amount of product in the least time and least space.  That leaves very little time for helping noobs, other than steering them in the right direction.  After that, if they wish to progress, it's up to them to work very hard for it.  This ain't pre-school.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15823194 - 02/17/12 12:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I've inconsistently been cultivating for quite a while now and I have been a member of the Shroomery for a long time. I've done lots of research on here and with other resources and some of this information is clearly laid out but some of it is not. 

I can see you took offense to my comment, after all these years, your attitude still baffles me. So show us your mad search engine skills and provide a link that clearly explains how you can breed dominate traits into a print instead of repeating the erroneous fact that in all cases a spore print resets genetics.

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InvisibleMr. Bojangles
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823286 - 02/17/12 12:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I think workman puts what you're after into writing here:  http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8077171#8077171


--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823316 - 02/17/12 01:10 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stropharis said:
I've inconsistently been cultivating for quite a while now and I have been a member of the Shroomery for a long time. I've done lots of research on here and with other resources and some of this information is clearly laid out but some of it is not. 

I can see you took offense to my comment, after all these years, your attitude still baffles me. So show us your mad search engine skills and provide a link that clearly explains how you can breed dominate traits into a print instead of repeating the erroneous fact that in all cases a spore print resets genetics.



I've never had a question that hasn't been answered by the search engine. I've even had obscure questions on rare things that were easily answered by the search engine. If you can't find the answer through the search engine then you're doing something wrong.

Breeding traits into spores is very, very hard and time consuming because spores do reset the genetics. It's not erroneous that spores reset the genetics, which you would know if you bothered to use the search engine. There are literally thousands of threads all talking about how and why multispore resets the genetics.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823365 - 02/17/12 01:25 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Stropharis said:

I can see you took offense to my comment, after all these years, your attitude still baffles me. So show us your mad search engine skills and provide a link that clearly explains how you can breed dominate traits into a print instead of repeating the erroneous fact that in all cases a spore print resets genetics.




It's apparent that your mind is made up by use of the word 'erroneous'.  However, it's not erroneous, but fact.  When there's millions of spores on a print and each one has its own genetic code, the mathematics of any two of those millions carrying the trait you're after is far from the ideal method. This means any of us would probably die of old age before perfecting a 'strain' this way and is why experienced growers perform thousands of strain isolations and do their genetic work with isolated dikaryotic strains, not spores.

No, I didn't take offense to your comment.  Questioning procedures is how we learn.  However, I'm not going to go into detail on an imperfect method when there's far more effective ones.  It would be like going to an online car forum and demanding an experienced mechanic detail exactly how you'd design a car with square wheels, simply because that's what you've made up your mind you want to do.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15823440 - 02/17/12 01:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I can take an APE print and grow it out to get a fruit body that resembles traits of both PF Albino and Penis Envy. Dominate traits bred into a print.... possible. You use the term genetic reset as a blanket statement covering all situations and possibilites,used in that manner, it is erroneous.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823523 - 02/17/12 02:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Of course, but that's not the point.  You can cross two white people and get a white person, or two black people and get a black person with similar appearance as the parents.  That does not mean in each child you get the same intelligence, drive and stamina, athletic ability, etc., as the parents.

This is why we don't breed mushrooms from spores.  If you have any doubt, look at the commercial mushroom industry.  It's a multi-billion dollar industry, where fortunes are made or lost on getting the right strain to work in the conditions at the farm.  None of them grow from spores, but rather from isolated cultures with known performance.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15823566 - 02/17/12 02:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have spent countless hours reading on this topic and doing my own work as well. I have no doubts about your knowledge on the matter or how the commercial mushroom industry does business. It just always surprises me when you get in a conversation with someone about breeding and as soon as they mention a spore print you stop them in their tracks with the same statement.  Most people that have read up know and understand that a strain is a live culture and a spore print is not a strain, that does not mean that it is impossible to breed dominate genetics into a print. That, for me, was my point.

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Offlinebishlap
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823599 - 02/17/12 02:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I find this thread very interesting as far as info provided.
I still have much to learn and threads like this point that out.

I rarely can find info for what I'm looking for on the se and if I do its 5+ years old so I can't feel certain of how up to date it is.
not to mention all the bad info/ contradicting info that can be found.

is there a good book anyone could suggest covering this sort of topic?


--------------------
"If you're not worried that you took way
to much, you didn't take enough" -
Terrence McKenna

There is no soul, only the ego dies.
The body was never yours.

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InvisibleStropharis
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: bishlap]
    #15823617 - 02/17/12 02:33 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

https://www.shroomery.org/books/


Big ones for me are The Mushroom Cultivator and Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms

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Offlinebishlap
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Re: Breeding with monokaryons and breeding through brute force (moved) [Re: Stropharis]
    #15823651 - 02/17/12 02:40 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

sweet thanks man.
I have paul stamets"the mushroom cultivator" but it gives little info beyond isolating from spores or tissue transfer.
I thought that was endgame pro level..


--------------------
"If you're not worried that you took way
to much, you didn't take enough" -
Terrence McKenna

There is no soul, only the ego dies.
The body was never yours.

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