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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Evolving]
    #1573993 - 05/24/03 02:07 AM (21 years, 27 days ago)

Yeah someone can shoot you, and there's not much you can do about it from a distance unless you can dodge bullets.. but the more knowledge and training you have of real combat situations, the more likely you are to survive such situations. Thus reinforcing my philosophy of training multiple arts...JKD and Pa Kua both teach how to handle multiple attackers, knife attacks and such. Though you may be at a disadvantage against multiple attackers with weapons, if you have a comprehensive knowledge of how to defend yourself, you are much better off than someone who doesn't have the first clue of what to do. The first thought should be fight or flight.

In any real combat situation, the more knowledge of martial arts and training you have, then you will generally be better off.


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Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Evolving]
    #1573995 - 05/24/03 02:09 AM (21 years, 27 days ago)

multiple attackers is a bad thing. thats why you should avoid any street fight like the plague. its just not worth it... i would run if i had to with my tail between my legs, i have nothing to prove to anyone.

that being said... no martial art addresses multiple attackers effectively... i don't care what style.. there is no way that a person trained in kickboxing, boxing... or anything else would be able to fend off an attack by 5 guys...

RUN!!  :laugh: 

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1574006 - 05/24/03 02:19 AM (21 years, 27 days ago)


Wasn't JKD created by Bruce Lee?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1574241 - 05/24/03 08:38 AM (21 years, 27 days ago)

Calling Shaolin Gong Fu an inferior martial arts system is very ridiculous.


The system of fighting is 100% complete as it is, and just because some assclowns step into the UFC and think they know TRUE gong fu, then forget their forms, probably never reallyknew how to fight in the first place - get stomped by some kickboxing guy doesn't mean ANYTHING.


A true shaolin gong fu practitioner, who is not just taught the FORMS, but also taught the exercises, which there are 100s, to make you learn to actually fight - and if you actually practice sparring daily or so - would take down a kickboxing of equal dedicaiton ANYDAY.


Ultimately , who wins is on whos the most intelligent fighter - when it comes down to two people who actually know how to fight.

But believe me, gong fu is a 100% complete fighting system, in which kickboxing, boxing, and other styles of fighting dont compare.



THe average person cannot land a hand on the average gong fu practiioner.

The average gong fu practitioner, who could easily destroy an average person, cannot even lay a hand on a real good gong fu artist.

It's one thing to watch TV and base your assumptions on that - but SOuthpark and UFC and the news cant teach you evreything looner :smile:



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Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1574348 - 05/24/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 27 days ago)

The system of fighting is 100% complete as it is

what do you mean by this? that it is ALL you need to be a perfect fighter? since gong fu is a stand-up art, how would one fair against someone who was trained in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and boxing? every martial art is 100% complete in its practice for what IT does... but so many styles cover a wide range of fighting possibilites.

just because some assclowns step into the UFC and think they know TRUE gong fu, then forget their forms, probably never reallyknew how to fight in the first place - get stomped by some kickboxing guy doesn't mean ANYTHING.

sorry, but it proves a lot.

- and if you actually practice sparring daily or so - would take down a kickboxing of equal dedicaiton ANYDAY.

but it just doesnt happen? ok, keep taking the word of some 80 year old sensei...lets be real here.

THe average person cannot land a hand on the average gong fu practiioner.

probabaly true... gong fu is a defense system, and its not a bad one. but, compared to other arts out there, it just doesn't rank up as the best.

It's one thing to watch TV and base your assumptions on that - but SOuthpark and UFC and the news cant teach you evreything looner

ahhh, but you are assuming i watch ufc once in a while to gain my knowledge. which is true, but i also study, research, practice, and a HUGE fan of the martial arts world, in fact, i'm a competitor.. i have training in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, and boxing, but alas... i guess i know nothing :smile: 

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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574527 - 05/24/03 12:40 PM (21 years, 27 days ago)

Let me remind you all that gong fu or kung fu doesn't refer to any style of martial art. If someone entered a tournament calling their style "kung fu" that means that that person is very ignorant and doesn't know what they're doing.

that has been tried again and again in competitive sports such as k-1 kickboxing and regular kickboxing is impractical?

My point was that if you cripple yourself with bone on bone attacks then the martial art hasn't succeeded in protecting your body from harm. K-1? Don't they wear gloves? No grabbing right? And I remember in the first one Pierre Guenette was in it. He used to teach me French classes in grade eight. He knows nothing about crossing hands, and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament. But then I'm not going to get into this argument am I?

Like I said the experience of fighting internal martial artists is out there if you want it. Go get it, cause I can't convince you a kick to the ankle could knock you unconscious. You'll just have to feel it yourself. This is a case where there's a lot more going on than you can see. If I showed you the move (called wind sweeps the cobblestones) you'd just see me kicking the dust up off the ground. Structure.

Some cool anecdotes:

in the 20s the Tai Chi guys decided to get together in Beijing and figure out who had the best Tai Chi skills. (I don't know how to spell the names and I may even have this one wrong) Chen Chow Won goes to the meeting expecting to clean up and establish his lineage as the dominant style of Tai Chi, but when he gets there he sees there are lots of other highly skilled people and he's not sure if he can win matches against all of them, so he goes and gets his dad (or was it his grandpa? No, dad I'm pretty sure). Chen Fa ke, his dad, shows up and beats everybody in a few seconds per match. There's no doubt, he's the best, and they present him with a plaque saying he's the best and they all recognize him as Mr. Tai Chi or whatever. He puts the plaque under his bed and never puts it on display in his school.

Back in the Chen family village (These guys practice Chen style Tai Chi of course) a local fellow was being a rude jerk, so Chen Fa Ke touched his elbows and slammed him against the ceiling. Ouch. One day the undisputed wrestling champion came to the school to cross hands with Chen Fa Ke. There was a class being taught by one of the senior students at the time. Chen and the wrestler were off in another part of the room. Just as one of the students asked a question Chen and the Wrestler started laughing and then they walked away.

The next day the wrestler showed up at the door delivering all kinds of gifts to Chen Fa Ke. The senior student opened the door and was like "what's this about?" The wrestler says "Oh, your master didn't tell you he beat me?" "No, I didn't even know you guys matched." The wrestler says "oh, your teacher is so gracious and modest blah blah blah"

Here's what happened: Chen said "I'm very interested in wrestling! When you open the match you attack eachother like this right?" He goes in and grabs the wrestler around the biceps. The wrestler grabs Chen around the biceps in that wrestling position you always see. Immediately the two start laughing and step apart. The wrestler lost his feet completely. They touched and he couldn't move his feet. He was totally locked to the ground and couldn't move.

These stories have come through the lineage to me. Cool stuff, but just worthless anecdotes only Tai Chi guys wouldn't scoff at.


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Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1574592 - 05/24/03 01:31 PM (21 years, 27 days ago)

My point was that if you cripple yourself with bone on bone attacks then the martial art hasn't succeeded in protecting your body from harm. K-1? Don't they wear gloves? No grabbing right? And I remember in the first one Pierre Guenette was in it. He used to teach me French classes in grade eight. He knows nothing about crossing hands, and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament. But then I'm not going to get into this argument am I?

k-1 is the number 1 sport in japan, and its fun as hell to watch... the knockout rate is 80%...you wear gloves... smaller than boxing gloves, but no foot protection. you can use knees, clinching, and sometimes elbows. it is set-up to allow all kinds of martial arts to compete.... kickboxing, muay-thai, kempo-karate, kyokushin... etc.

and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament

the calibre of fighters in k-1 is simple... they are the best stand-up fighters in the world. period.

here is a link, i suggest you download some videos or watch espn2.. sometimes they have it.

http://www.k-1usa.net

try finding a video of jerome lebanner... he is the scariest man i'd ever want to face in the ring... some believe he is the culimination of hundreds of years of french bitterness :smile:
   

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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574629 - 05/24/03 02:03 PM (21 years, 27 days ago)

I meant shaolin gong fu is 100% complete fighting system, as it can be used ALL AROUND for self-defense, street fighting, professional, practice sparring, etc.

The same cannot be said for boxing, hell I wouldnt say the same for karate, and many other fighting systems like wrestling. They lack too much to be considered COMPLETE packages.


The forms of shaolin gong fu are complete in that they are so detailed, so intricate, and so well-designed over the past 5,000 years that no fighting system compares.

Are you telling me that someone who TRULY knows how to fight, and applies this knowledge after learning the 5 basic animal forms (Dragon, Snake, Crane, Tiger, and Panther) that any kickboxer would even compare?


Like I said, UFC shows absolutely nothing. It's good to watch UFC to laugh at people trying to fight, but in reality almost ANYONE you see on UFC can't fight for shit. They all use sloppy forms, and quickly forget their forms too.


Im taking about someone who really knows what they are doing, so lets not bring UFC up anymore.


I've seen shaolin gong fu practioners who none of the UFC "fighters" would be able to lay a hand on....and thats not a lie. No, they arent 80 year old monks, more around the age of 30-35.


I suggest if you research martial arts, you look more strongly into shaolin gong fu.

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Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1574637 - 05/24/03 02:10 PM (21 years, 27 days ago)

your lack of knowledge has shown through in this post, it isn't even worth a reply... i have to admit though, you gave me a good belly laugh with this...

Are you telling me that someone who TRULY knows how to fight, and applies this knowledge after learning the 5 basic animal forms (Dragon, Snake, Crane, Tiger, and Panther) that any kickboxer would even compare?

and this

Like I said, UFC shows absolutely nothing. It's good to watch UFC to laugh at people trying to fight, but in reality almost ANYONE you see on UFC can't fight for shit. They all use sloppy forms, and quickly forget their forms too.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574739 - 05/24/03 03:10 PM (21 years, 27 days ago)

I wouldn't bother with this argument boys

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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1574965 - 05/24/03 05:49 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:


Wasn't JKD created by Bruce Lee?




Yes it was.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1574967 - 05/24/03 05:53 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

yang rises on the left dwood

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Offlinespiritshaper
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1574990 - 05/24/03 06:06 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

you guys should check out www.sherdog.com , they've got a bunch of pimp videos there to download and it's all free and whatnot. it's one of my favorite fighting websites and i'd reccomend it to anyone who's interested in any professional fighting or martial arts.

have fun with your argument =)

laterz


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1575014 - 05/24/03 06:20 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

Looks to be rising to the left to me...
That's the JKD symbol anyway


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1575020 - 05/24/03 06:22 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

well I guess the colour scheme disrupts the whole thing, I see an arrow rising on the left, but not the little sperm thingy.

It's a minor point, lots of people don't really care what way they draw the whole diagram, but word on the street is yang rises on the left in the human body and so having it any other way, although still communicating the whole principle misses out on a small hidden meaning in the whole thing.

Edited by Dogomush (05/24/03 06:24 PM)

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OfflineMurex
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1575198 - 05/24/03 08:16 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)


How can you tell which is which?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1575455 - 05/24/03 10:56 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

Yang is white yin is black. Yang rises on the right, yin descends on the left. think black T-shirts absorb the heat, which is very yin. White T-shirts.. well, they reflect the light which is sorta yang.

The thing about yin and yang is that... the white T-shirt is yang in that it shines this light into me.. that's yang in relationship to its surroundings, but if you were to match up the T-shirt vs the sun then in that relationship then all t-shirts no matter what colour would be yin, because they recieve the energy of the sun no matter what colour. The moon is yin, because it absorbs the sunlight just like a white t-shirt, but then it's kinda yang too because it shines the light down on us and we recieve it.

Also, the black t-shirt, although being yin because it absorbs so much sun becomes yang when it radiates the heat when you touch it. Black plastic will burn your feet, which is yang but the overall absorption of the sun is a very yin characteristic. This is why there are the little eyeballs of the other colour within the spermy things in the Tai Chi diagram (note that most people call it "the yin yang" but yin and yang are just the component parts of it. When they come together in perfect balance that's called the Tai Chi (supreme ultimate state of being) throw the Chuan onto that and you've got the martial art Tai Chi Chuan which means supreme ultimate fist (or fighting style)). Ah yin and yang theory.. so much fun. So endless. It basically states that everything exists in a relationship to everything else. Everything is relative. Because of this everything is totally dynamic and not ever quite what you think. A black t-shirt is yin then yang then yin then yang.

And so what about when that black piece of plastic gets really hot and you touch it and get burned? Well that's Chi. Chi is the product of the relationship between yin and yang. When I look at you and say something and you listen I'm yang (expressing the idea outward) you are yin (recieving the idea). The conversation is the Chi. We'll call it "conversation chi."

It's funny that people feel the urge to refer to chi as this enigmatic life force. There's no reason to get flakey on it. I use my mind to control my limbs. My mind is Sheng my body is Jing, which are yang and yin respectively and this thing called life which is born of the interaction between these two parts of myself is called chi. We'll call it "human chi."

In our culture people see yin and yang and immediately think good and evil. Good with a little evil spot in it and evil with a little good spot in it. This comes from our twisted Christian heritage. Yin and Yang theory is an excellent paradigm with which to navigate our universe, and I'd like to see more people get over good and evil and trip out on the real shit.

So.. how about that eh? Yin and yang and the product of their interaction whatever that might be is called chi. Chi is everywhere. You could call it "energy." Why, you could even get all flakey and say stuff like "woah I'm experiencing negative energy from that guy." Lots of people get hung up on energy as this mystical magical force but dwood it's everywhere. Anywhere a relationship occurs between two things whatever they are.

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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1576237 - 05/25/03 11:38 AM (21 years, 26 days ago)

Im not even going to argue with you looner.

Your lack of knowledge has proven you probably have never seen a shaolin monk in action, or even a true american shaolin gong fu practitioner. I tested your knowledge and made you feel insecure, so you resulted in saying I'm not knowledable in other threads. That my friend is low.


I know my martial arts, my gong fu, what do you know? Kickboxing?

Again, do not answer this, I already know the answer.




Fighting sytle doesn't play a HUGE role when the fighter is intelligent, almost any fighting style can be used. However, shaolin gong fu has the advantage over most because of its intense training, TONS of forms which you can learn all kinds of punches, kicks, grabs....not to mention the chin nas, wing chun that come with it.


It becomes built into your subconsious, and you become a fighting machine....its important to keep your own creativity and intellect however. This creates the ultimate fighter.

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Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1576363 - 05/25/03 01:19 PM (21 years, 26 days ago)

I know my martial arts, my gong fu, what do you know? Kickboxing?

i told you i've wrestled in competition for 12 years of my life, i took two years of jiu-jitsu and judo, and i have limited knowledge in boxing... i've also trained in submission wrestling.

now let me ask you this, if i wanted to take you down usiing my wrestling skills, what could you do? nothing. once you are on the ground, what could you do? nothing. don't tell me you have a way to defend my takedown when i've practiced live for 2 hours a day for 12 years, and competed against the best in the state.


Fighting sytle doesn't play a HUGE role when the fighter is intelligent, almost any fighting style can be used. However, shaolin gong fu has the advantage over most because of its intense training, TONS of forms which you can learn all kinds of punches, kicks, grabs....not to mention the chin nas, wing chun that come with it.

TONs of forms, punches, kicks??... you only need 3 punches, hook, jab, uppercut.. thats it.

It becomes built into your subconsious, and you become a fighting machine....its important to keep your own creativity and intellect however. This creates the ultimate fighter.

the fact that you said UFC does not mean shit...shows your ignorance... seriously. people are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to compete and win. they train all day, everyday. its a full-time job... and the sport has evolved to where champion kickboxers have black belts in jiu-jitsu, sambo, and are national wrestling champions. there is a show in japan called "pride"... it is the 2nd largest sport in their country... go buy a dvd of it and see the huge crowds that come out to watch the WORLDS BEST martial artists... and who competes in them? boxers, kickboxers, jiu-jitsu, muay-thai, wrestling... etc... PROVEN ARTS... and the atheletes there are the top in the world... but again you say that doesn't mean shit?? what proof can you use to back it up? seriously?? just because of what your instructor says? do you even compete going live? these guys train and spar and wrestle... all day long...

now here are some websites dedicated to people like who you believe your "gong fu" is effective.. there are even video clips of these people fighting MMA fighers... take a look for yourself.

www.sherdog.com
www.bullshido.com



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Invisibletekramrepus
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Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1577196 - 05/25/03 09:48 PM (21 years, 25 days ago)

There is a difference between real life fighting, and organized fighting. Shaolin gong fu was originally not meant for sport, and is stil traditionally not meant for sport. In was developed as a REAL self-defense fighting system. They needed it, to be honest.


UFC is crap, I don't care how much they get paid to fight. I have rarely seen fighters in UFC keep their true stances and use actual forms (from my limited knowledge, of course). Instead...I see them start out with nice looking forms, and as soon as they get hit or lose control, they start to forget that they know a fighting system and start punching like crazy. This is not the trait of a decent fighter.


Anyways, I don't wish for a heated argument, everyone has their own opinions - yours is from what you've witnessed and observed throughout your life, vice versa.


Just to be fair however, you should not dismiss the fighting system of gong fu as inferior to any other fighting system, and I should not do that either. The fighter is ultimately the one who won the fight, not his style. The style is just the bridge to victory.

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