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realfuzzhead Registered: 03/03/10 Posts: 10,783 Loc: above the smog l Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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Definitely eliminate the minimum wage, but why put a maximum? you think people will be honest about that? You think your going to go to the Rockefellers and have them just give up their money because some government somewhere say's they can't earn that much?
Why would we lower incentive to do good in the economy? I dont give a fuck fi Mark Zuckergurb makes a billion dollars a year, I still voluntarily use facebook and IMO he can pay himself what ever the fuck he wants. What does piss me off is when CEO's get money from taxpayers to do shitty jobs that they lobbied for, but that's governments fault. Not the CEO's -------------------- want a cool color changing shroom gif that is easy on the eyes for YOUR shroomery background? 3 easy steps <-- click here
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realfuzzhead Registered: 03/03/10 Posts: 10,783 Loc: above the smog l Last seen: 1 year, 4 months |
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and no not you that other guy who was talking about it. I know your not stupid ..
-------------------- want a cool color changing shroom gif that is easy on the eyes for YOUR shroomery background? 3 easy steps <-- click here
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love2shpongleIRL Opiophile Registered: 06/11/11 Posts: 4,784 Last seen: 11 years, 10 months |
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Oh, right on. Just wasn't sure because you replied to yourself. I don't believe a maximum wage lowers incentive. You can still have outrageous salaries for executive compensation, it would just be capped(let's say 10-15 million). I wouldn't be so inclined to believe in this idea if the rich were spending their cash. As of the last decade, they are not and it is hurting the economy as a whole. http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2010
-------------------- Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T. S. Eliot Edited by love2shpongleIRL (01/26/12 08:46 PM)
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amilibertine It’s good to be back! Registered: 06/10/09 Posts: 3,241 Loc: Northern South Midwest Last seen: 6 months, 20 days |
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Quote: Actually the founding fathers were very much against "I'll give you a portion of mine". In fact, this country was designed so that you made your own way without expecting help from anyone. We didn't even have a federal income tax until 1913 because our republican principles considered it outright theft. The only time we had an income tax before that was during the civil war and it was abolished after the war was over. Our forefathers realized that this system isn't fair but neither is life. If you don't want to put in the work to gain the life you want that is your fault and you shouldn't expect a handout from the government just because your a lazy person. People nowadays are too used to the government being their parents that they have forgotten how this country was designed to run. Having said that, I also dislike unions. Sure they got child labor abolished and got the workday reduced to a realistic amount. That's all well and good. But in the present time there are much better ways to do these things without forcing people to join unions. I've never met anyone who belonged to a union who was happy about it.
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love2shpongleIRL Opiophile Registered: 06/11/11 Posts: 4,784 Last seen: 11 years, 10 months |
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I like my union, but I am a public sector employee. Different animal there.
-------------------- Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go. T. S. Eliot Edited by love2shpongleIRL (01/26/12 09:41 PM)
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Bodhi of Ankou *alternate opinion blocks path* Registered: 06/02/09 Posts: 24,778 Loc: Soviet Canukista |
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Edited by Bodhi of Ankou (01/27/12 05:43 PM)
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Prisoner#1 Even Dumber ThanAdvertized! Registered: 01/22/03 Posts: 193,665 Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutS |
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Quote: you really think that's the case? my mom lost 2 fingers in a machine because some illegal that couldnt speak english and didnt pay attention closed a guard on her hand while she was trying to clear a machine. my brother was pinned between 2 baskets of steel by a forklift driver that was showing out. fucking my brother's knee a former land lord was skewered by a forklift leaving him paralyzed from the chest down and with limited use of his arms/hands and I personally saw a man knocked into a vat of lead by someone operating a overhead crane after drinking from the 2liter of home made wine and smoking the joints that always got passed around at lunch none of these operators were terminated and none were drug tested, the injured parties were tested except the guy in the lead, he died. what protected these employees from termination... the union Quote: really? you think you're covered? better start asking the disabled if it's due to workers comp, a simple surgery cold have allowed my step father to continue living a normal life, working. 45 years as a master plumber, a workers comp doctor told him his foot wasnt broken, 3 different workers comp doctards and none were willing to do anything because workers comp doesnt pay them. workers comp doesnt pay the injured party. you want more, you buy your own disability insurance. Mom for $15k for the fingers, my brother got nothing. had the former landlord not been covered to the hilt with his own insurance including disability insurance he'd have been totally fucked Quote: my last job was metal fabrication, I was provided full medical and dental and they payed 80%, I started at a low rate and via merit in 12 mos my pay more than doubled because I increased production efficiency and showed them that I was intelligent and capable. with each pay raise they discovered I could do more. I can be a machinist, I can form steel, I can reprogram the plasma cutter to make it do what's needed off a shop drawing, I can repair hydraulics, run and troubleshoot electrical in single phase, 3 phase and low voltages. the shop wasnt union in concrete work I moved from being being a supervisor to the project manager in 6mos, that more than doubled my pay and included a benefits package. what got me there was the fact that I showed initiative, intelligence and ingenuity. I did what ever was required to get the job done in the lead mill, I was in the union, I worked my ass off and made better than my friends but at the same time I saw that there was no room for advancement, I watched the union fuck the employees for the benefit of the company, I saw how seniority worked and how shitty employees were protected from termination thanks to union contracts. in 6mos we had two strikes and one lay off, the lay off was retaliation for the strikes so in all honesty, it was like I wasnt even working but I was employed you ever been in a union? Quote: first you're wrong. I always bring construction project in on time or early and I bring them in under budget, that's why I made great money in construction because I dont fuck around and I dont allow my crew to fuck around. at the end of the job there's a bonus, what I would have made gets split between them because I made twice what they did so losing a bonus wasnt going to hurt me. it's called incentive. if we come in late we get nothing, if we get a call back, no bonus years ago the japanese PM called americans fat, lazy and stupid. he was referring to the unions, specifically the UAW but it runs across the board to almost all unions. they're protected from termination so they have no incentive to work hard. my experience has shown that when you work too hard in the union, the supervisor starts coming down on your ass about 'working yourself out of a job' which means more lay offs because the contract is completed in less time Quote:Quote: sure, blame it on the CEO when the union worker is fucking off half the day and discussing a strike the other half. Imagine in the place of chrysler who bought the employees retirement/termination. they payed $70k in a lump sum and paid the pension of employees with seniority, workers with one year in got a $100k sum for voluntary termination. 11,000 employees that's a billion dollars in cash paid out plus the pensions of most of the workers which go on for life which could be several billion more how's that compare to the CEO pay... well, Obama capped them at $500k and they dont get a pension, they have to invest what they get in order to plan for their retirement. Sergio Marchionne and other execs at chrysler only made $1 per year but he got $600k in worthless stock based on the gamble that he can turn the company around Quote: this year I'm supporting 5 people on $7000, what's a standard of living do you need a new car every 3-5 years? do you need to lease the car, house, furniture and buy every cool new gadget that's on the market, do you need to eat out every night or go party every weekend, do you need a constant supply of alcohol and other recreational drugs? I dont so my cost of 'living' is lower than most but remarkably enough, my standard of living is still pretty good. I feed the family, we have our bills paid, we have several vehicles and granted they arent the newest cars on the road but sometimes that old 51 ford is a much better ride Quote: you should learn about how the system works, your vote for president doesnt matter
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Shins Fun guy Registered: 09/15/04 Posts: 16,337 |
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In a free market, a CEO only gets rich by providing the best value of product or service, and by many people volantarly giving them their hard earned money.
with socialism the government taxes and debases the currency to transfer and redistribute the wealth to inefficient, corrupt, monopoly special interests and beurocracies. products, services, and employment suffers. because the market cannot function properly and determine proper values. you get financial bubbles and vast tranfers of wealth to rich insiders.
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Bodhi of Ankou *alternate opinion blocks path* Registered: 06/02/09 Posts: 24,778 Loc: Soviet Canukista |
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Rich lobbyists. The people should also be held accountable to their decision on presidential candidates and senators. Its ultimately there choice to elect such officials and their choice to stand be as such corruption runs so rampantly. What if the budget changes were equally distributed among such supporters? what if the ones who voted such people in were held accountable to such changes that they created? public opinion would drastically change it would no longer be a simple x on a ballot every four years and then a return to more pressing matters such as how to better fuck your wife and that burrito that needs microwaving.
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Anthony M1 A1 Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 3,725 Loc: earth Last seen: 11 years, 2 months |
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fuzzhead I'm givin you +5 shrooms for seeing the light in the darkness of liberalism and a failing economy. You genuinely understand how this economy should function, and the flaws of socialism and communism. I think you are seeing the true side of things. the fact that the federal government was never designed to support its population and that personal responsibility is the most important factor in this economy. People who rely strictly on federal assistance are losers. They are good for nothing fuck faces who want nothing more than a free ride and to milk this society for all it's worth.
why work when I can be a degenerate fuck face and still reap all the benefits? Why? If there is no incentive to get out there and make my own living, why would I? The government is overreaching, overstepping it's boundaries, and ultimately becoming much too involved in the every day life of average americans. I want my life to be as free of regulation as possible. To do what I please and make money as I see fit. Not to have my success penalized and taxed out the ass to pay for some fuck face who doesn't want to do his fair share. Next week I'm going to work nearly 70 hours busting my ass doing construction. Do I want to? Fuck no! Do I have to? Absolutely. I understand that no one is out there looking out for me. Nobody is interested in my own success but me. If I don't get out there and work hard, then I won't get SHIT in return. That's how it should be. If you starve to death because you're too inept to get off your fat fuckin ass and get a job, GOOD! I don't want your lazy, useless ass alive anyway. It may seem harsh, but it's not. This is a dog eat dog world, and if you aren't ready for that, too fuckin' bad. disclaimer: I am wasted, high as hell, and ranting. Everything I say should be taken with 100% seriousness. seriously.
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Lynnch Strangerer Registered: 04/29/09 Posts: 7,935 |
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Quote: I'm pretty sure 13 colonies decided to band together and fight for the greater good. I'm pretty sure the entire basis of human civilization is giving up selfishness and helping each other. No man came into this world alone. Fuzz- You were saying that if we raised minimum wage, the system to collapse. All i'm saying is, look at the CEO's and all of upper managements paychecks, look at the profits these companies are making. There is plenty of money to go around. There are people starving in what we call the best country in the world. We live in an age of plenty, but you are content to say 'fuck em, they must be lazy'. I am not. I believe we can do better. Quote: I find that hard to believe. Those are pretty awful working conditions, seems like they need to organize and create better rules. Quote: So you're solution to this terrible stuff is less required medical coverage for people ????? It sounds like they should have had a better union to fight for actual medical coverage Its a damn good thing we've had people organize and fight for workers comp (which apparently needs to be expanded) instead of having your mother and brother thrown out into the cold since they got hurt and couldn't work anymore. Or what, they could have quit and found a better company that offered those things? Ya, right. Quote: My last job was sub contracting sign installation. I got paid under the table. No workers comp, not paying into social security, no taxes so I made more (Yay a full 8 an hour!), no benefits. I was a union stagehand for a while, started at 15 an hour, always a good time loading in rock shows with my brothers. Never had a strike. I left to do a contract tour that paid 500 a week. Quote: You sound like a good contractor, but you gotta know what I mean about construction. Union or nonunion, shit always goes wrong. You're right about the working too hard deal, I've heard that too. I also got bitched at for taking a smoke break at my union gig, so, maybe not all union jobs are the same... Quote: Don't pretend to know how hard the workers work, or what they're thinking about, come on. I think its great that companies pay out pensions, our elderly should not have to die in poverty. Whats your point? Gasp 500k? Those poor poor ceos, only making in a year what I'll make in half of my life time, so sad. Quote: I think owning your own home is a part of the ole american dream. I hope we're building cars that last longer than 5 years though. And as I was saying before, everyone in our country should be fed. We can AT LEAST do that. 5 people on $7000 is impressive by the way, you know how to take care of business. Quote: Wasn't that what I was saying?? Seems like the local propositions have more direct effect on your life anyway. If the free market economy works so well, why are we in this situation?? Why are we arguing about this?? And why is the only alternative to the free market some poorly understood 'socialism!11!! or hippie communism!!1!!!' I think we can agree shit does not work. I think we can agree we should try something new. 'And once again, though I'm tired of saying it, Welfare. Is. Not. The. Problem. If a few people abuse the system, and don't want to make anything of themselves, so. what. drop in the bucket. You choose to blame them, and disregard the fact that welfare is here, because yes, shit happens, and people need help. Poor people do not have the money to fuck up the economy. MAYBE JUST MAYBE the people with the money and power have fucked up. Does that make sense to anyone?
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teamkiller ghetto drama whore Registered: 06/06/11 Posts: 8,806 Last seen: 1 month, 17 days |
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Ugh, i should ignore you again anthony.
Social nets are important to society, because countries with poor people running around grinding every way they can and dying suck. yeah it kind of sucks to work extra hard to give stuff to other people for free, but it beats being accosted by beggars, thieves and children who were crippled by their family so they would make more money begging. --------------------
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Anthony M1 A1 Registered: 06/16/11 Posts: 3,725 Loc: earth Last seen: 11 years, 2 months |
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whatever teamkiller, if my opinion is THAT offensive, ignore all you want. Personally I don't really care what you have to say, but I'm not going to get soo butthurt about it that I will completely censor myself from your words. That is childish, and shows that you cannot handle what it is that I have to say.
People should not be forced to help other people. They should do it out of their own free will. Quote: we do not currently have a true free market. Government has made sure of that. Quote: Welfare is part of the problem, but it is not the only problem. Social security is also a HUGE problem. So is the amount of money that our government blows out its ass on shitulus programs that do absolutely nothing. Our huge military budget also needs to be cut. The length of unemployment benefits also needs to be slashed. The size of the federal government needs to shrink. They need to be less involved, because they are inefficient and costly. They cannot operate for a profit, they do not create anything! The private sector is where business takes place. It is where money is made and real jobs are created.
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Prisoner#1 Even Dumber ThanAdvertized! Registered: 01/22/03 Posts: 193,665 Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutS |
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Quote: so are you trying to say that you've never worked in a place where someone came into work fucked up? no one that's ever gotten fucked up at work? maybe you should read what get's posted here because it seems like more than half the people here do just that and many dont give two shits about the environment they work it, it's just like the drunk that says "I drive better when I'm drunk than when I'm sober" these thing are written up as on the job accidents and regardless of the rules, they get protection from the union. really? you think you're covered? better start asking the disabled if it's due to workers comp, a simple surgery cold have allowed my step father to continue living a normal life, working. 45 years as a master plumber, a workers comp doctor told him his foot wasnt broken, 3 different workers comp doctards and none were willing to do anything because workers comp doesnt pay them. workers comp doesnt pay the injured party. you want more, you buy your own disability insurance. Mom got $15k for the fingers, my brother got nothing. had the former landlord not been covered to the hilt with his own insurance including disability insurance he'd have been totally fucked Quote: name a better union. my brother and mother were told they need to return to work by the unions and the employer even though they were incapable, they wanted my mom back in 3 days after her injury, something that would have resulted in her running machinery while on pain killers, the very sort of shit that results in the injuries she received my brother left, he came to work with me at a non union shop where he started at 20% more than what he was making and when we were laid off he had a 75% increase in his pay from the union shop and better benefits the unions arent what most people believe them to be, the IBEW, UAW and a few others are worth the trouble of getting into if you're looking into your retirement but the majority are worthless Quote: non compliance on filing taxes isnt more money in your pocket it's the potential to have all your assets levied and even siezed and as a sub contractor you're required to have your own workers comp coverage, having not paid in to social security will hurt you at retirement age or if you're ever disabled because that's less that you'll be able to draw, can you imagine trying to live off a few hundred per month because you never paid into social security except on a few jobs $500/week? I made that in 1985/86 when I was in the union, outside of the union I made close to that, in 1997-2008 I made between $900-$1600/wk without the union and still had benefits Quote: our elderly dont have to die in poverty, if they were intelligent enough to do as their parents and not have to keep up with the jones' they'd have had cash to put back for retirement since many decided that a luxury car was the way to go and getting the kids designer jeans so they could be popular in school was more important than where they'd be at 70 they made their own choices, now why should I have to pay for the bad choices that others made. it's much like the landscaping contractor that was doing well since the 90s, money rolling in, had a couple of crews working and has his big new house but instead of dropping his disposable income on his mortgage he bought 4 wheelers, motorcycles, a boat, jet skis, and a $120k RV, everything financed which meant big down payments and monthly interest and of course instead of selling the toys he allowed a foreclosure on his mortgage that he couldnt afford when the economy tanked and moved into a rental which resulted in the toys getting repossessed anyway and it's a real shame that he didnt pay into social security because in 15 years he'll be retirement age and he's got nothing set aside for his retirement and wont draw enough to live on from social security. had he paid for his home, he'd have been OK. these are the sorts of people you're expecting me to support. people that cant manage their money, the one that think a motor home is a great buy rather than feeding their kids on pensions. if GM were to go under today they'd have to pay out the $91 billion currently in their pension fund and would still be $30 billion shy of having it pad in full. that's just GM. the government is a different critter, if they had to pay out pensions in a lump sum it would more than quadruple the national debt. for government it's the single largest unfunded liability we have. pensions are passed on to us, the company doesnt pay it, you do in the cost of goods you buy just as that union pay is. sure that GM employee is making $120k per year, plenty to pay off his home in a few years and invest for his retirement and in addition to what he draws from SSI could live rather comfortably but instead that's passed on to us so he doesnt have to be responsible for his own well being after 65. it allows him to do as he pleases. he gets to be the grasshopper while us ant have to carry him on our backs through the winter Quote: I own my home, I own 3 of them in fact, no mortgages. 85 acres of land. I own 6 vehicles if you include the tractor, all debt free. I just remodeled one of them and spent a month working on it, used accumulated materials from jobs over the last 10 years and outside of a little pipe, lumber and a new shower and toilet, I spent nothing. my total was under $1000 so yes, taking care of business is my specialty. I now let a couple on disability live there for 1/4 the market rate for rentals in the area, what they draw from SSI is barely enough to cover their expenses, I help the guy collect firewood in order to heat the house that's time and money from me. so yes, I agree, everyone should eat but it's not my responsibility to feed your kids, that's your responsibility. I feed mine and I'm already helping others Quote:Quote: I guess you're unaware of the fact that this isnt a free market economy, we have high taxes which frequently go to subsidize business, farmers being paid to grow something they wouldnt normally, home owners being paid farm subsidies just because their homes were once agricultural land, multinational companies that earn billions each year are receiving grants an the like in order to develop alternative energies or simply bailing them out from their bad business practices. they're government regulations of much of what businesses do and they have since the early 20th century, you'll see that the CPI index coincides with the labor unions getting involved in politics, the establishment of the federal reserve and the death of the free market economy government intervention is what's led to the 'recession' we're in now, forcing banks to give loans to those that couldnt repay under the CRA was a huge step leading to the financial crisis. trade agreements such as NAFTA were another big factor in that it allowed for the exportation of jobs to other countries such as mexico while allowing for the importation of products without duties. this benefited many manufacturers such as Levi-Strauss and the auto makers because now they can make a cheaper product in a foreign country and ship it back while not having to pay US taxes or import duties Quote: maybe you fail to realize it but people arent the only ones receiving welfare but before we touch on that, let's look at the single largest expenditure in the US budget. spending for social programs and corporate/international welfare is 32% if the national budget. defense spending is 17%. we toss billions into corporate welfare and foreign aid as well as other 'non defense discretionary spending' such as giving mexico $3billion to stop the flow of drugs entering the US, not listed as foreign aid but it's still foreign aid, welfare for nations. this is on top of the $11billion we've already sent them and the other $23billion in remittances. that's $36 billion per year to a foreign nation for what? to send their citizens to the US to 'occupy' our employment base and further bankrupt the social services funds? $22bn in welfare, $3bn in food assistance programs, $3bn in medical, $12bn in education, $1bn for housing in local jails for illegals and this isnt all. total estimates on welfare to illegals is $90bn with a high estimate at $300bn, this doesnt include suppressed wages at $200bn which results in a greater strain on both the economy and the welfare system Does Boeing, Xerox, IBM, Motorola, Dow Chemical, or General Electric deserve the $100+bn that they receive in welfare? what of the $1.4tn spent in welfare under the guise of bailouts. that too is corporate welfare when you consider that many of these companies still go under without ever having repaid their debts. here's you some interesting facts. there's 82 million families (households) in the US and 47 million families receiving government assistance and yet the official reports of unemployment say we're at 8% unemployment, the 'actual' unemployment is claimed at 23% but the employment participation rate is only 63% meaning that 37% of the US citizens eligible for work arent working. this would be more than 90million people, only 14 million are students in college. there's 30 million illegal immigrants in the US. when you do the math you discover that 23million families should be drawing welfare. that leaves us with 24 million that should be working but thanks to unions, government intervention into the free market we now have double the number on welfare that we should have
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Lynnch Strangerer Registered: 04/29/09 Posts: 7,935 |
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Hmm.
Well you're totally right about getting paid under the table and not paying taxes. I was basically getting fucked, I've never made enough to qualify for unemployment (tho, that doesn't surprise me, my last few jobs have been that way) And its not like I made enough or was given enough hours that I'd have to actually file (once again, as usual) So... How do we fix it? Thats really the question, and fuck its a good one. You can't just get rid of unions, for whatever bad things they cause, giving the power back to corporate overlords = 20 hour work days and show you to the street corner if you get hurt. I don't think a union job is any better or worse really. Just more often than not, if you're union, you are getting taken care of more, right when you're hired. For a price of union fees. But its better than min wage under the table we'll fire you whenever we please, which seems to be the alternative most of the time. It seems like the biggest issue here is non termination contracts, which I guess I agree with you about. I just can't believe that if someone fucks up enough on the job that it kills someone, nothing would happen to them. You brought up unions involved in politics, same thread as corporate sponsorship and lobbying in politics. Too much money is involved in politics, and too much politics is involved in money. A union should be about taking care of the workers. Thats it. Unfortunately government is involved with farm and business subsidies, keeping bad business afloat. But if the choice is between subsidies or the entire midwest starving or being out of work, I think I choose subsidies. Government got involved for a reason. Banks have failed a few times. Shit happens. Same with social security and other welfare. You say you're paying for other peoples piss poor planning, which may be true sometimes, but shit does happen. Hell, maybe your child is a musical genius and you mortgage your house and cash your pension to send them to the best school; then the stock market crashes and the investments you were planning to use to carry you later in life are gone. Thank god you've been paying into social security all your life instead of having to ask your neighbors or the government to put you up. Fuck NAFTA then. No wonder there are no jobs, we don't make shit here any more. Once again, corporations fucking us for a few more % points of profit. I think we all agree about the spending on the drug war lol. Otherwise i'm on the fence about international aid. That is how we influence the world, and when otherwise every headline would be how many people we've bombed, I think it is very important. Making an effort to help feed people instead of kill them is essential to my sanity, and I would like to be able to travel in other countries without being spat on some day. But if it comes down to taking care of our own or taking care of the world, of course we should take care of our own. Anyway, if the rest of the world is doing well, it would follow that we'll do well as well, more people to trade with blah di blah. But of course, Boeing and GE are huge government contractors, without them, who would make the bombs and bombers? I imagine, it was imagined the turmoil from these businesses crashing would be too much for the country to handle, too much drastic change. Too many powerful people losing power. I wonder how many state secrets these companies hold. They're probably nearly government entities anyway. So you've got some families sitting in a rental eating on food stamps. They put in enough work to be recognized by the system, they don't do enough to get anywhere. I keep seeing big talk about losing the incentive to blah blah blah. These people have no incentive, they're not about to go to college, they're not about to become a business owner, let alone a ceo. The problem isn't that they don't want to work, its that even if they do work, they still won't get anywhere. The problem is, if I work my minimum wage job, I don't make as much as someone on disability and food stamps- and neither min wage or food stamps gets you anywhere in life. Being stuck is awful. That doesn't mean food stamps should be cut. To reiterate, shit happens, we are in an age of plenty, feeding every human being should be an achievement of society to be celebrated. But the work I do should be worth the life I give up for it. We should be working for progress. Isn't the dream that we will all have enough, everything that we need and maybe everything we want? Why are we so unhappy? Because we give our lives to this bullshit, and it doesn't seem worth it. We still don't get to do what we want. Fuck 'life isn't fair'. Work harder damnit, lets make life fair and maybe shit wouldn't be so messed up.
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