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OfflineTerry M
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Don't tell my wife!
    #15716117 - 01/25/12 12:45 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I'm thinking seriously about turning the major room of our unfinished studio/garage into a grow room. The room is 20x11 feet. The building has just studs and a concrete floor now. There's water running to it (after I have the frozen broken pipe fixed once again :smile: ), and 40 amps of electricity. I could have the natural gas in our house piped to there. There's also an attic room above this room, with full access via stairs.

The first thing is to have batt insulation installed on the interior walls, and then, I assume, ordinary drywall. But what about heating, cooling, air circulation, and humidity? I've got a fairly blank slate here. But whatever I use, I'd want to buy a fully automated programmable control system, so that I don't have to do any manual environment adjustments throughout the day or even daily. So what type of heating/cooling should I plan for? I live in New England. This would be for growing assorted edibles, though Agaricus is pretty low on the list. It's not for commercial growing -- at least, I'm not planning to do this.


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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Invisiblecc2
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Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 2,611
Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15716172 - 01/25/12 01:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

great project to even just consider, let alone accomplish :toast:

as strange as it may seem, first thing which comes in mind about managing growroom and edibles is air filtering. some edibles release loads of spores and filters regularly clog up if you don't clean them or have a lot of them growing.

about heating I'd say go for anything which is cheap for you, oil stuff is skyrocketing. on cooling you'd save something and just let room temp/colder air in and reach an equilibrium with the warm air inside.

a note on circuits and wiring: be sure to waterproof them. 80%+ RH tarnishes a lot of stuff and sooner or later you'll have to unscrew and test with a multimeter all the pieces to understand who's blocking who.

sorry about the lack of details and idea, but I hope this could help anyway

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: cc2]
    #15716271 - 01/25/12 01:39 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Is the idea is to use the whole 20'x11' room as one big fruiting area
or will it be split into prep, colonizing and fruiting areas?

Is there provisions for a drain in the floor?

I'd stick with electricity, 40A @ 240V should be plenty for headting/cooling and all other demands.
Fibre-reinforced panels are the way to go for finishing. They are completely waterproof and food grade.

cc2 is right on the money with spores causing the most trouble.
I'd really love to get my hands on some sporeless commercial strains.
The next big hurdle is the humidity, it's not hard to get it in the air
but once there it will wreak havoc on your system if not properly designed.
Water vapor has a way of getting everywhere, and condenses where ever it can.

As an overall heating/cooling plan I'd have a separate room to handle incoming air and get it to proper temperature.
Then humidify the air and pump it into the fruiting room. In the winter you can add a radiator in the fruiting room.
You don't want the AC in the fruting room as the coil will freeze up from the high humidity.
I use a Heat Recovery Ventilator to save up to %80 on heating/cooling costs.
The biggest problem with the HRV is clogging with spores and freezing up from humidity.

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: GroboClone]
    #15716446 - 01/25/12 02:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

GroboClone said:
Is there provisions for a drain in the floor?





Uh-oh. That may be a show-stopper right there.


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15716463 - 01/25/12 02:29 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

No it's not that bad, lay down vinyl flooring and fold up a nice size lip on the sides.
Just get a nice sponge mop and use as needed.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15716474 - 01/25/12 02:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The first thing is to have batt insulation installed on the interior walls, and then, I assume, ordinary drywall.




Bad plan.

I'd suggest metal studs, Styrofoam insulation, and plastic sheets rather than drywall.  You need to be able to take a hose in there and spray.  You'll also need a floor drain.  If it's on a concrete slab, it's an easy fix to get a concrete saw and jackhammer to cut a trench to lay the drain pipe in.

Use manual controls for environment.  It's hard to find good transducers which hold up to extreme humidity.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15717150 - 01/25/12 05:04 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As far as automation goes,

Temperature Controller:
Either a "Johnson Controls A419" or "Ranco ETC-111000"
I have a few of the Johnson Controls myself, digital, fully configurable with remote sensor.
Cost around $50

   


Carbon Dioxide Merer:
I just picked up one myself, "az-instruments 7722"
Measure up to 10,000 PPM and has a relay output along with a serial port for data logging on a PC.
Cost me $150



The same company also makes more robust models for more $$

http://www.co2meter.com/collections/wall-co2-meters-transmitters


Humidity:
This one is the trickiest. The analog humidistats clog with spores while the digital units are generally junk.
May have to go fancy with this one, like a digital psychrometer or something.


Here's the website of an Irish company that manufacture all sorts of air handling and control systems for mushroom production,
gives you an idea what commercial grade equipment looks like.

http://jfmckenna.com/mushroompages/ventilation.html

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Offlinejimmyjame1
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: GroboClone]
    #15717182 - 01/25/12 05:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

terry any prodjects you take on you really give it your all, so if you decide to do this i think you'll be very successful!

much love

jj

keep us posted


--------------------
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LOVE PEACE AND BEAUTIFUL MUSIC.

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: jimmyjame1]
    #15719661 - 01/26/12 05:47 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for the great info, guys. This has got me pointed in the right direction. I understand the room requirements a lot better now. This would be a long-term project, and my main concern now is starting off on the right foot, and making improvements that were indeed improvements.

One more question. When you talk of spores being the major problem, is that because they create an unpleasant, potentially unsafe working environment, or because they can generate cross-species contamination? Or something else, like promoting general mold/bacterial contamination? Another option I have is to set up multiple mini and midi plastic greenhouses in the space. This would give me separate micro-environments for different species. And since this isn't a commercial endeavor, the much lower grow space capacity wouldn't be a problem. What issues with cleaning/maintenance would this present? Clean plastic interiors by washing down with water, spraying with bleach solution, or other? Suggested cleaning schedule? Or if I grow the same species in the same greenhouse, is cleaning much less of an issue? Greenhouses could have their own plastic floor trays or waterproof self-contained bottoms for washing out.


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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Invisiblecc2
Mush

Registered: 05/15/10
Posts: 2,611
Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15720002 - 01/26/12 09:08 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
One more question. When you talk of spores being the major problem, is that because they create an unpleasant, potentially unsafe working environment, or because they can generate cross-species contamination? Or something else, like promoting general mold/bacterial contamination




nobody wants to breath ounces of spores and develop an allergy or other respiratory diseases. also being small but solid particles, they will accumulate and clog in your air filter's filter. I think RR posted some pictures about that time ago. :smile:

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: cc2]
    #15720126 - 01/26/12 10:00 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

The problem with spores in relation to automation is they clog up the transducers, ruining them.  A CO2 meter with relay contacts to control a blower will have a life of about one week in a room full of oysters.  Trust me, I've spent thousands of dollars on crap that is totally useless, despite advertising to the contrary.

For fresh air intake, use a blower running 24/7 and choke down the intake until you get the right balance of fresh air/CO2 level.  Get a CO2 meter, but don't keep it in the grow area.  Put it there for readings for no more than 5 minutes, and then get it the hell to a safe location.

For humidity readings, find a good analog hygrometer on amazon.de and either beg them to ship it to the U.S., which they'll probably refuse to do, or find a German friend to order it and ship to you.  Don't try to get a humidistat, because I guarantee it will fail within a week or two under a heavy spore load.

It's easy to dial in a grow room manually.  Mine works flawlessly since I got rid of all the so-called automation crap and set everything up manually.  I don't even use timers any more, and bear in mind in my previous life I was an electrical engineer with a specialty in automation.  If that stuff worked in our environment, I'd be using it.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15720301 - 01/26/12 10:48 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

RR,
Have you experimented with different types of filter material for your CO2 meter?
I'm concerned that even with brief exposures the spores will ruin the delicate NDIR sensor in short order.

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OfflineTerry M
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Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15720324 - 01/26/12 10:54 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The problem with spores in relation to automation is they clog up the transducers, ruining them.  A CO2 meter with relay contacts to control a blower will have a life of about one week in a room full of oysters.  Trust me, I've spent thousands of dollars on crap that is totally useless, despite advertising to the contrary.

For fresh air intake, use a blower running 24/7 and choke down the intake until you get the right balance of fresh air/CO2 level.  Get a CO2 meter, but don't keep it in the grow area.  Put it there for readings for no more than 5 minutes, and then get it the hell to a safe location.




Great info! I haven't dealt yet in this hobby with CO2 levels, and really need to. I see CO2 meters all over the place in price. Which one do you use, RR?


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: GroboClone]
    #15720570 - 01/26/12 12:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

GroboClone said:
RR,
Have you experimented with different types of filter material for your CO2 meter?
I'm concerned that even with brief exposures the spores will ruin the delicate NDIR sensor in short order.




I only place the CO2 meter in the grow room when I'm making changes or dialing in the system.  Quite frankly, I haven't even used it in over a year because I already have the system set up so CO2 levels never exceed 1000 ppm.  Also, I never use it when there's a high spore load. 

In fact, there's no excuse for a high spore load unless one is growing oyster mushrooms, in which case the grower won't be doing so for long without breathing apparatus anyway.

Quote:

Great info! I haven't dealt yet in this hobby with CO2 levels, and really need to. I see CO2 meters all over the place in price. Which one do you use, RR?




I had a much more expensive one which failed when spores clogged it up, so I got this less expensive model, which seems to work OK, as long as I only put it in the grow room for a few minutes at a time.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleGroboClone
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15720764 - 01/26/12 01:30 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I've been doing quite a bit of research into the cheaper CO2 meters, they are usually marketed as "Air Quality Monitors".
There are a number of companies that brand the meters but most are manufactured by one company, "AZ Instrument Corp" from Taiwan.

They make three different styles: Wallmount, Handheld, and Desktop.

       

From there each style has different modes with varying features: upgraded CO2 sensor, RH%, data logging, PC connectability, relay output.


All models from AZ utilize a NDIR (nondispersive infrared) "CO2 Engine" module manufactured by "SenseAir" in Delsbo, Sweden.
There are two models of sensors used in the meters,

CO2 Engine K22                                CO2 Engine K30

   

The K22 is accurate from 0-2000 ppm, ±75 ppm + 5% of measured value
The K30 is a bit better    0-5000 ppm  ±30 ppm, ±3% of reading

Companies selling the meters often list them as good form 0-10,000 PPM but this is incorrect.
They will output a value up to 10,000 PPM but it will only be accurate to 2000 or 5000 PPM depending on the sensor.

I've seen the meters sold under many different brands such as: Extech, CO2METER.COM, Supco, Amprobe.
The best value I've come across are the ones from Supco on Amazon.com for $160

If you're feeling lucky you can order directly from China on Ebay and get a meter for $100

Edited by GroboClone (01/27/12 12:53 PM)

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OfflineTerry M
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Loc: Rhode Island
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15725286 - 01/27/12 02:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Again, great info. The dedicated, environmentally controlled room would be a long term project.

Quote:

Terry M said:
Another option I have is to set up multiple mini and midi plastic greenhouses in the space. This would give me separate micro-environments for different species. And since this isn't a commercial endeavor, the much lower grow space capacity wouldn't be a problem. What issues with cleaning/maintenance would this present? Clean plastic interiors by washing down with water, spraying with bleach solution, or other? Suggested cleaning schedule? Or if I grow the same species in the same greenhouse, is cleaning much less of an issue? Greenhouses could have their own plastic floor trays or waterproof self-contained bottoms for washing out.




Can somebody comment on the above?


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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InvisibleJavadog
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15726798 - 01/27/12 08:06 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Great thread Terry.

...and odd that the bit that I wanted to comment on
is still available. :0)

While I am not suggesting that it is a better way to go,
your multiple GHs idea has advantages.

This would allow you to have a "Nameko GH" with the
continuous fog that they need to pin, and separately
a GHs tuned to the needs of other species.

If you have the space outside the building then I would
consider making one of Lipa's shade-cloth boxes for
outside fruiting when the weather permits.

This would free up space in the clean area too.

Great thread.  I look forward to how it turns out
(and not into WW III!)

Take care,

JD


--------------------
Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes

Myco-tek.org

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: GroboClone]
    #15746445 - 02/01/12 09:03 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

GroboClone said:


Companies selling the meters often list them as good form 0-10,000 PPM but this is incorrect.
They will output a value up to 10,000 PPM but it will only be accurate to 2000 or 5000 PPM depending on the sensor.






This just fine for our uses, because any CO2 level above 1500 ppm is going to give very poor results for growing mushrooms.  I keep mine below 1000 ppm and the species I grow do great.

As said already, P nameko will need its own grow area.  It won't fruit in the same parameters we use for most gourmet species such as shiitake, lion's mane, oyster, Black Poplar, etc.  I colonize my P nameko blocks, and then strip and bury them in the snow near my creek over winter.  They'll fruit outdoors after the snow melts in the spring if you have a suitable humidity.  I'm in a dry climate, but between the melting snow and the creek, the humidity in May-July is great for nameko.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #15763260 - 02/05/12 06:21 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

I'd suggest metal studs, Styrofoam insulation, and plastic sheets rather than drywall.  You need to be able to take a hose in there and spray.  You'll also need a floor drain.  If it's on a concrete slab, it's an easy fix to get a concrete saw and jackhammer to cut a trench to lay the drain pipe in.

Use manual controls for environment.  It's hard to find good transducers which hold up to extreme humidity.
RR




RR is right...Sprayed Low Pressure Polyurethane Foam provides a
complete, seamless insulation envelope.  It can also provide an air and water-tight barrier, something fiberglass batts can not.

Spray foam insulation link




--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: Don't tell my wife! [Re: Terry M]
    #15763642 - 02/05/12 09:28 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

GroboClone said:
Is there provisions for a drain in the floor?





Uh-oh. That may be a show-stopper right there.




Maybe just use a wet vac and a squeegee after spraying or wash-down?


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

Edited by OICU812 (02/05/12 09:29 AM)

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