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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period.
#15698477 - 01/21/12 05:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Hello Shroomery,
I have made a total of 8 tubs using quart WBS with either B+, GT, or Cam. The jars colonize quickly and they are almost always clean. I use LCs, spores, or G2G. This part I'm confident I have down.
Where I lose control is in spawning to bulk.
I spawn to coir following Damion's recipe and methods. Block of coir, 4.5 quarts water, 2 quarts verm. After I boil I add 1/4 cup gypsum. When cool I sterilize the room, mix with 6-10 quarts of spawn, wipe everything down, seal the tub, and wait.
12 days later I typically always have good/ full colonization, but NEVER ANY PINS? I have tried waiting from 12 days to 24 days for a single pin to form while in the sealed condition. I have never gotten a pin during this period, with any of the strains.

Sometimes the tubs are slightly too wet, so I dab water off the surface or use a turkey baster to remove sitting water. Sometimes the water content seems to be just right. Sometimes I expose the tubs to light while colonizing and consolidating, sometimes I leave them dark. Colonization temps are between 68-78.
After I have waited up to 24 days (still no pins), I expose to air. After 2 - 3 more weeks, I either get contamination, or I start to get pins, but only on the sides. I have only gotten 5 or so pins total to ever come up on top of the surface, after 8 tubs. Total of 4ozs for all 8 tubs.
I'm guessing this means that by the time the situation for growing is correct, the surface is too dry, and it only works on the sides where the humidity is slightly higher. Why is it taking so long for the conditions to be ripe? Why would I never get a pin during colonization?
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I have taken a couple months break, but I want to take another shot; I just don't want to end up with the same results.
Thanks!
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15698507 - 01/21/12 05:34 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Is the humidity low where you live? Sounds like maybe you should try a casing layer or the wax paper trick.
Also you could try to ease back on the water when making your bulk substrate. I see more pins when I put no more than 4 qts. (1 gal.) in my mix.
How do you seal up your mono for colonization?
-------------------- My Old Grow Logs
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Wing]
#15698532 - 01/21/12 05:42 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Humidity is not low here. It's usually between 65% - 85% relative humidity I believe, 78% now.
I can try easing back on the water. I really haven't adjusted the amount of water at all. I have tried to case once, and I ended up with contamination, but I didn't case until maybe day 20 of consolidation.
I don't remember exactly how I did it. Do you allow full colonization first and then add one inch or so of field capacity jiffy mix?
I have not heard of the wax paper trick. What does this do?
My sealed mono is simply all of the holes duck taped, with the lid on. My holes are pretty big in all my tubs. 2 or 2-1/4 inch.
Thanks for the response winged.
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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Wing
The Eye Tyrant



Registered: 04/25/11
Posts: 3,293
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15698588 - 01/21/12 05:54 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wax paper trick is basically you take wax paper and ball it up and then unball it so that its wrinkly and lay it out on the top of your fully colonized substrate.
Some people use jiffy mix for a casing layer. Some use peat and lime. You want the PH around 7.5-8 I believe to discourage contamination so most people use lime in whatever they use.
You always want to wait until 100% full colonization, and then wait a few more days before you use a casing layer.
-------------------- My Old Grow Logs
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Wing]
#15698687 - 01/21/12 06:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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With the wax paper, do you seal the tub back up until you get pins, or do you start fruiting conditions first and then add the wax?
Do you typically use a 12/12 light cycle through the entire colonization period?
Is just taping the holes enough sealing?
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15703962 - 01/22/12 07:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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any more thoughts on this?
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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vanthonyv
Stranger
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 60
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15704357 - 01/22/12 09:12 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Essentially what's happening to your tub is that the sides are ideal for pinning while the top layer lacks sufficient environmental conditions... What you should do after you put it into FCs is get a spray bottle (Clean it out first with hydrogen peroxide, spray it a few times with HP, then dump it out HP, fill it up with bottled spring water, spray it a few more times to clear it, Now it's ready to use.) and mist it slightly a couple times a day on the surface. If you see water pools you've sprayed too much, if it has a slight glisten and beads then its ideal. At this point temperatures (75-80) in the room will evaporate the water. Try this for two weeks with your stalled/side pinning tubs and I bet things will look alot prettier
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vanthonyv
Stranger
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 60
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: vanthonyv]
#15704363 - 01/22/12 09:14 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Oh one thing. Monotubs are so suppose to be sit and forget however that dosn't mean conditions are always ideal. Hence side pinning when you have 100% colonization on the surface.
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: vanthonyv]
#15705050 - 01/22/12 11:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks.
Any idea why I would never be getting pinning on the top during the consolidation period or shortly after?
My thoughts are that if everything is properly sealed, and I initially used the right ratios for the substrate, the proper conditions should eventually exist for pinning without disturbing the tub.
I think you are right on that the side pinning occurs because that area becomes ideal for fruiting, but why does it take 2 weeks? What would you suggest is going on with the surface conditions just before and during early fruiting?
Maybe there is no clear answer to this, but I feel like something has to be wrong with my setup or process.
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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vanthonyv
Stranger
Registered: 08/17/11
Posts: 60
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15705549 - 01/23/12 01:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Pinning on top during Consolidation period: I don't have a definite answer but my impression is that it simply hasn't hit the right fruiting conditions. Moisture/ humidity, fresh air, light.
Properly sealed/ proper conditions without disturbing: You would think so however again my impression is that I have to go with what I see. If I see a tub that has gone through consolidation and refuses to fruit its because its not getting what it wants. I feel that mushrooms want to fruit but they won't if the key elements in your environment havn't been met. The proof is in the pudding...
Side pinning; 2 weeks: This is a guess of mine but ill throw it out there anyways. When people have tubs/jars whatever... and it appears to have stalled for no apparent reason. I think what is actually taking place is that the mycelium is consolidating the nutrients its already over taken and is no longer spreading out to find more nutrients. I think that when this stalling occurs to us visually, what is actually taking place behind the scenes is that the mycelium is digesting nutrients and moving said nutrients to the areas that need them most. IE> you wont find mushrooms burried under the surface yet theres mycelium there. So my logic says that the mycelium all through out the substrate is moving nutrients from the very center of the tub to outside areas so it can be used for hyphal knots and such...
In a nutshell understand the lifecycle of the mycelium and understand that its actions are a product of it's environment.
My 2 cents.
Edited by vanthonyv (01/23/12 01:41 AM)
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Big_Sexy
LoveMonger



Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 602
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: vanthonyv]
#15705627 - 01/23/12 02:06 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Wow thats amazingly shitty, you need to explain your setup a little better to get a good answer.
Do you have a humidity gauge in the tub(s)?
Do you tape your holes during colonization/consolidation? and how big are they?
How deep is your substrate?
Are you fanning or misting?
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Big_Sexy]
#15706390 - 01/23/12 10:35 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
vanthonyv said: Pinning on top during Consolidation period: I don't have a definite answer but my impression is that it simply hasn't hit the right fruiting conditions. Moisture/ humidity, fresh air, light.
Properly sealed/ proper conditions without disturbing: You would think so however again my impression is that I have to go with what I see. If I see a tub that has gone through consolidation and refuses to fruit its because its not getting what it wants. I feel that mushrooms want to fruit but they won't if the key elements in your environment havn't been met. The proof is in the pudding...
Side pinning; 2 weeks: This is a guess of mine but ill throw it out there anyways. When people have tubs/jars whatever... and it appears to have stalled for no apparent reason. I think what is actually taking place is that the mycelium is consolidating the nutrients its already over taken and is no longer spreading out to find more nutrients. I think that when this stalling occurs to us visually, what is actually taking place behind the scenes is that the mycelium is digesting nutrients and moving said nutrients to the areas that need them most. IE> you wont find mushrooms burried under the surface yet theres mycelium there. So my logic says that the mycelium all through out the substrate is moving nutrients from the very center of the tub to outside areas so it can be used for hyphal knots and such...
In a nutshell understand the lifecycle of the mycelium and understand that its actions are a product of it's environment.
My 2 cents.
I agree with your assessment here. Thanks for the answer. I just wish I knew what the tub wanted, so I could change the environment and give it what it needs.
Quote:
Big_Sexy said: Wow thats amazingly shitty, you need to explain your setup a little better to get a good answer.
Do you have a humidity gauge in the tub(s)?
Do you tape your holes during colonization/consolidation? and how big are they?
How deep is your substrate?
Are you fanning or misting?
Tubs: 64 quart sterilite
Holes: 2" holes, 2 on each long side (4 inches up - 4 inches in), and one hole on each short end (4 inches from the top). Completely taped over during colonization/consolidation.
Substrate: Between 3-4 inches deep.
Light: I have tried light during the entire colonization period also I have gone completely without light until fruiting.
Fanning/Misting: I don't fan or mist until at least 15 days, but after I expose to fruiting I keep an eye on things and have tried consistent fanning and misting to get growth. My problem is that I am in a house/room with contamination issues, so the more I open the tub, the more likely I am to get contams.
Humidity: I have a gauge that I take in and out. While colonization is occurring, I'm not sure of my RH. However I would guess 100% because there is typically moisture everywhere. Once I put into fruiting, I am able to maintain a RH of 95% - 100%

Thanks for all the help!
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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Big_Sexy
LoveMonger



Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 602
Last seen: 12 years, 22 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15707540 - 01/23/12 03:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Man I really don't know but I'm no vet, sounds like your doing everything right. I know RR recommends direct sunlight for 10-15 minutes per days and some recommend a cold shock. Do u have a tub right now? if so put that guy by the window and let it get some direct sunlight for a little while. I hope a TC comes by and you can get his take, i really feel for you man this shit takes a lot of time, energy, money, passion, and work. So I'm gonna say a prayer to the Mushroom Gods for you ,and for Mushrooms gods sake I hope you have better luck next time!!!
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tr8orjohn
Waiting for an airplane...



Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 162
Loc: Down in...Mexico
Last seen: 12 years, 28 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Big_Sexy]
#15707668 - 01/23/12 04:11 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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While no old hand, I've never seen pins before consolidation is over. Pins are a sign that fruiting has been triggered, so (in my mind, at least), pining before air exchange is allowed is a sign that your tub isn't sealed properly.
Instead of 4 big holes per side, I use 8 ~1" holes per long side; once consolidation is finished (read: everything is covered in mycelium), I cut the bag down to the substrate level, take out all the polyfill and spend a day spraying the walls of the tub every few hours (when it evaporates) with the lights on. I then pop back in the polyfill, spray down the walls one last time, and leave it be with a 12 hour light cycle. This has given me consistently good yields.
If the edges are pining, it sounds like an air exchange issue. That's , but again, I'm no expert
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Microbiologist turned mycologist, but still amateur enough to enjoy the occasional surprise...
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Terry M said:
Looking for rules that other people use successfully. Sterile procedure is just a set of rules that work.
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Big Pappa
Challenged



Registered: 09/03/11
Posts: 717
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Last seen: 11 years, 17 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: tr8orjohn]
#15707848 - 01/23/12 04:59 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I wouldn't set them in direct sunlight... but thats just me.. 
Are you soaking them before you fruit it??? The same as dunking a cake from a PF jar, you need to dunk your substrate for an hour or two in cold water, THEN put it into fruiting conditions.
This re-hydrates the substrate and makes it ready for fruiting.
If your having humidity control issues apply a casing layer after the soak to help maintain moisture throughout the substrate.
Its not a FAE problem during colonization, pins are normal... Even in a PF jar it will pin and even fruit given enough time. There is no FAE in a jar... only GE.
The reason its pinning only on the sides is because the entire substrate is dry, any moisture from humidity in the colonizing tub beads up on the walls and eventually drains to the bottom where it gets into the sides of the substrate (which is ready to fruit).
When you have a fully colonized tub that begin to pin on the sides, DUNK it to replenish the water inside the substrate then put into fruiting conditions. It will be covered in pins in a few days and a LOT of fruits will come up from those pins if you keep conditions right.
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FunGuy1492
Your brother


Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 191
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Big Pappa]
#15708000 - 01/23/12 05:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Big_Sexy said: Man I really don't know but I'm no vet, sounds like your doing everything right. I know RR recommends direct sunlight for 10-15 minutes per days and some recommend a cold shock. Do u have a tub right now? if so put that guy by the window and let it get some direct sunlight for a little while. I hope a TC comes by and you can get his take, i really feel for you man this shit takes a lot of time, energy, money, passion, and work. So I'm gonna say a prayer to the Mushroom Gods for you ,and for Mushrooms gods sake I hope you have better luck next time!!!

Thanks for well wishes Big_Sexy. Sounds like you have had a few dealings with tubs going bad. Money, time, energy, passion, and work are exactly right. It drains you when it's all for nothing After 8 tries. It's like wtf else can I do, ya know.
Quote:
tr8orjohn said: While no old hand, I've never seen pins before consolidation is over. Pins are a sign that fruiting has been triggered, so (in my mind, at least), pining before air exchange is allowed is a sign that your tub isn't sealed properly.
Instead of 4 big holes per side, I use 8 ~1" holes per long side; once consolidation is finished (read: everything is covered in mycelium), I cut the bag down to the substrate level, take out all the polyfill and spend a day spraying the walls of the tub every few hours (when it evaporates) with the lights on. I then pop back in the polyfill, spray down the walls one last time, and leave it be with a 12 hour light cycle. This has given me consistently good yields.
If the edges are pining, it sounds like an air exchange issue. That's , but again, I'm no expert
Thanks for the reply. Sounds like you think that it's a moisture issue as well.
Quote:
Big Pappa said: I wouldn't set them in direct sunlight... but thats just me.. 
Are you soaking them before you fruit it??? The same as dunking a cake from a PF jar, you need to dunk your substrate for an hour or two in cold water, THEN put it into fruiting conditions.
This re-hydrates the substrate and makes it ready for fruiting.
If your having humidity control issues apply a casing layer after the soak to help maintain moisture throughout the substrate.
Its not a FAE problem during colonization, pins are normal... Even in a PF jar it will pin and even fruit given enough time. There is no FAE in a jar... only GE.
The reason its pinning only on the sides is because the entire substrate is dry, any moisture from humidity in the colonizing tub beads up on the walls and eventually drains to the bottom where it gets into the sides of the substrate (which is ready to fruit).
When you have a fully colonized tub that begin to pin on the sides, DUNK it to replenish the water inside the substrate then put into fruiting conditions. It will be covered in pins in a few days and a LOT of fruits will come up from those pins if you keep conditions right.
I have never heard of dunking a mono before the first flush. This may be a great idea. The humidity can be right, I can have water in the bottom of the tub, and droplets on the side and top of the tub, but that says nothing about the actual moisture in the cake? Is that right? This definitely sounds like it's worth a shot.
-------------------- Anything that I type in the space above has been completely fabricated to boost my self esteem. All of the pictures I am posting here were copied from other places on the internet. Thanks for reading. (I'm still cool, right guys, right?)
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PureHash



Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 1,126
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: vanthonyv]
#15708144 - 01/23/12 05:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
vanthonyv said: Essentially what's happening to your tub is that the sides are ideal for pinning while the top layer lacks sufficient environmental conditions... What you should do after you put it into FCs is get a spray bottle (Clean it out first with hydrogen peroxide, spray it a few times with HP, then dump it out HP, fill it up with bottled spring water, spray it a few more times to clear it, Now it's ready to use.) and mist it slightly a couple times a day on the surface. If you see water pools you've sprayed too much, if it has a slight glisten and beads then its ideal. At this point temperatures (75-80) in the room will evaporate the water. Try this for two weeks with your stalled/side pinning tubs and I bet things will look alot prettier 
Hydrogen peroxide only kills cobweb, And is harmful for mycelium. Use rubbing alcohol and evaporate to sanitize things.
Quote:
vanthonyv said: Oh one thing. Monotubs are so suppose to be sit and forget however that dosn't mean conditions are always ideal. Hence side pinning when you have 100% colonization on the surface.
Monotubs are Not "set and forget" You still have to mist THEN fan 3-4 times a day. Martha Green Houses are "Set and forget"
Quote:
vanthonyv said: Pinning on top during Consolidation period: I don't have a definite answer but my impression is that it simply hasn't hit the right fruiting conditions. Moisture/ humidity, fresh air, light.
Properly sealed/ proper conditions without disturbing: You would think so however again my impression is that I have to go with what I see. If I see a tub that has gone through consolidation and refuses to fruit its because its not getting what it wants. I feel that mushrooms want to fruit but they won't if the key elements in your environment havn't been met. The proof is in the pudding...
Side pinning; 2 weeks: This is a guess of mine but ill throw it out there anyways. When people have tubs/jars whatever... and it appears to have stalled for no apparent reason. I think what is actually taking place is that the mycelium is consolidating the nutrients its already over taken and is no longer spreading out to find more nutrients. I think that when this stalling occurs to us visually, what is actually taking place behind the scenes is that the mycelium is digesting nutrients and moving said nutrients to the areas that need them most. IE> you wont find mushrooms burried under the surface yet theres mycelium there. So my logic says that the mycelium all through out the substrate is moving nutrients from the very center of the tub to outside areas so it can be used for hyphal knots and such...
In a nutshell understand the lifecycle of the mycelium and understand that its actions are a product of it's environment.
My 2 cents.
I dont think you quite understand the life cycle yourself my friend..
95% of the time stalling is caused by bacterial contamination Or hidden contaminates within the substrate. Or you simply did not mix your sub and your spawn well enough.
You wont find mushrooms under the sub becasue there is no FAE. FAE is the #1 pinning trigger. When you sub shrinks you get pins on the sides becasue you are introducing FAE.
My advise to the OP would be wait. If your sub contams after consolidation chances are it was contamed from day 1. And it is not uncommon foor pinning to take a while.
ALSO
If you mist to much you will matt down the mycelium making it harder for primordia to form. You can put a really really thin layer of coarse verm to your sub so that exxess water is held by this verm. If you make it to thick you are asking for contams to grow in the "Casing"
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Kizzle
Misanthrope


Registered: 08/30/11
Posts: 9,870
Last seen: 2 months, 7 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: FunGuy1492]
#15708198 - 01/23/12 06:10 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fanning/Misting: I don't fan or mist until at least 15 days, but after I expose to fruiting I keep an eye on things and have tried consistent fanning and misting to get growth. My problem is that I am in a house/room with contamination issues, so the more I open the tub, the more likely I am to get contams.
Funguy it's quite the opposite. Your tub already has contaminant spores in it. By opening the tub and disturbing the air inside your are forcing those spores to become airborne. It's during the time the air is not moving that the spores can land and germinate try to take over. Fresh air not only is a huge pinning trigger, it actually also reduces your chances of contamination. I would focus on getting them fresh air exchange when you are ready to fruit them. You might even try taking the polfill out of the holes completely for a while.
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tr8orjohn
Waiting for an airplane...



Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 162
Loc: Down in...Mexico
Last seen: 12 years, 28 days
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: Kizzle]
#15708994 - 01/23/12 08:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have to disagree with PureHash, I have never fanned my monotub 3-4 times a day, and haven't had to mist much; it is a set-and-forget-it kinda thing. IMHO, once fruiting is triggered, it's triggered, and all your doing fanning it 3-4 times a day is giving your sub a chance to dry out.
I also have never heard of hydrating a sub before a first flush, and can't see a reason for it: in a sealed system, it doesn't disappear.
-jon
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Microbiologist turned mycologist, but still amateur enough to enjoy the occasional surprise...
My Trade List
Terry M said:
Looking for rules that other people use successfully. Sterile procedure is just a set of rules that work.
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PureHash



Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 1,126
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Re: My monos don't work well :/ No pins during consolidation period. [Re: tr8orjohn]
#15709241 - 01/23/12 09:52 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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All your doing is providing enough FAE to support thick dense flushs
As Kizzle said, Contams THRIVE in stale air... The more you fan, The better..
And also if you read I said "Mist THEN Fan. As another myth passed from noob, to noob is that water causes aborts.. Well No... Water causes aborts in High C02 levels, IE not enough fanning.... This is why We mist THEN fan, To remove to exxess from fanning, We dont mist then fan untill its dry, You mist then fan so that there is enough FAE so that your mushies wont abort in the stale air of the mono tubs that you don't fan.
The only true "Set it and forget it" is a finely tunned martha style closet green house. That is that. Fully automated FAE with controlled humidity levels and an ultrasonic for "Misting".. That is the only TRUE "Set and forget"...
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