Home | Community | Message Board


MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains

Jump to first unread post. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: MountainMist]
    #1568861 - 05/22/03 11:19 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I was a strict vegetarian, yogi and meditator for seven years. That is what made me the loveable rogue that I am today.  :cool: 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1568889 - 05/22/03 11:33 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Awsome discussion here. Both sides of the discussion seem to be insightful. I have some ideas about this but I'm under the powers that be are watchin me at work - will post some more later.
Swami, if meditation is about "acceptance of what is" (which is my understanding of mediation), then I'm at a bit of a loss to see how such a practice could lead to a lot of frustration. Such an ideolegy seems to be conducive to peace. Just my opinion, and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about this - especially since u mentioned that u were invovled in such practices for 7 years.


"lovable rogue"... chuckle, I like that ;-)


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568897 - 05/22/03 11:39 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with the gardner analogy. It's not a matter of what type of people are attracted to Buddhism, but rather that those who stick to it are the "matching type" so to speak.
I agree with MountainMist that it's not just happy people who are attracted to Buddhism. In fact, one would have to be dissatisfied in some way to seek out a different way of life. The question is that if a person is very agressive/depressive by nature, would they stick with Buddhism and meditation ? or would they be unable to and get frustrated. A study would have to be done involving such people.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568903 - 05/22/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

As for the references about violent/deviant monks, I think that's a bit out of place since one is likely to find such specimen in all walks of life. And one must consider that there are *very* few such Buddhists (when compared to violent gardners or religious people).


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568916 - 05/22/03 11:48 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Also, it's easy to judge other peoples lives as being "stress free"... Buddhist are as human as everyone else and everyone has to deal with the internal conflict and suffering caused by greed, lust, desire etc. Do u seriously think that a Buddhist is never even attracted to a materialistic life style ? Think that the thought of wine, women etc never occurs to em ? True that they probably arn't as attracted to the ideas as some of us inculcated by materialism. But u think they never wonder if wearing orange robes and giving up everything to mediate all day and live an ascetic lifestyle is the right thing to do ? Anyone who trys to understand himself/reality/the world around him better with mediation is bound to come up against some serious stress...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568924 - 05/22/03 11:55 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Swami, if meditation is about "acceptance of what is"

Meditation is not about acceptance nor any philosophy, but about quieting the mind of internal chatter.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568930 - 05/22/03 11:57 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

when compared to violent gardners

Have never seen nor heard of anyone being weed-whacked or even hoed to death.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1568941 - 05/22/03 12:05 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Then you haven't seen my "Ground Hog Graveyard" just outside my garden.

:shocked:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1568942 - 05/22/03 12:05 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"Meditation is not about acceptance nor any philosophy, but about quieting the mind of internal chatter. "

My understanding was that when u accept what is, completetely and unconditionallty then the result is a quiet mind.
There is no way to forcefully quiet the mind and get rid of internal chatter (i.e. no way to force yourself to stop thinking).
My understanding is that when one accepts ones thoughts without judgement and watches them, one comes to understand the flow and patterns and ephemeral nature of thoughts and learns to disidentify from them. This is what results in the quieting of the mind. From the watching, understanding and realization of the mind and self.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568945 - 05/22/03 12:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"Have never seen nor heard of anyone being weed-whacked or even hoed to death."

Isn't there a Stephen King flick called "Lawn Mower Man"... never seen it,admittedly ;-)
Non-sequiter, yes, just trying to add some levity :-)


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: ]
    #1568952 - 05/22/03 12:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Then you haven't seen my "Ground Hog Graveyard" just outside my garden.

Meanie! Where is your respect for all living creatures?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1568955 - 05/22/03 12:14 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

just trying to add some levity

After many years of meditating, one can perform levitytation...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1568989 - 05/22/03 12:29 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I respect 'em.  I put flowers on their graves.  See?  I told you you should see it.

:grin:

Actually in truth they go in the compost pile to give back to the garden what they took.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: ]
    #1569007 - 05/22/03 12:39 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

And, of course, we mst consider the case of Buddhist gardners with an inexplicable aversion to Groundhogs... ;-)


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: lucid]
    #1569247 - 05/22/03 02:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry for going on about gardeners, I saw "Being There" the other day for the first time so I'm still pretty stunned by it  :smile:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1569313 - 05/22/03 02:22 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

None of your half-remembered anecdotes changes that.

Anecdotes are the bread & butter on this board for evidence of mystical happenings, but you don't seem to question those. Why not an anti-anecdote?





If you'll take a look at my history, I don't actually spend a great deal of time here. Simply because I don't take the trouble to challenge every single mystical anecdote doesn't mean that I believe any of them.

I posted an article for people's information. I did not necessarily endorse the more grandiose claims of some of the people quoted therein. You could say that there is a strong claim--"Buddhism and meditation are sure-fire means of achieving happiness"--and a weak claim--"Buddhism and meditation can create improvements in mental quality of life for many people, much of the time." You and Alex123 are arguing against the strong claim, which I have stated repeatedly I do not endorse. Neither of you has done anything whatsoever to cast doubt on the weak claim.

Besides which, it doesn't work very well to argue against studies with anecdotes. If I had given you anecdotes, you may have been justified countering them with other anecdotes. Please show me a study indicating that meditation does no good whatsoever.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: MountainMist]
    #1569346 - 05/22/03 02:30 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Please show me a study indicating that meditation does no good whatsoever.

My crude personality is a valid demonstration of the lack of efficaciousness of meditation.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Xlea321]
    #1569367 - 05/22/03 02:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

It's a circular argument isn't it - people who study buddhism are happy because they study buddhism. I've met a lot of happy gardeners too but I wouldn't say gardening makes you happy - some people enjoy it and they're the ones who stick at it. That's about as far as you can go.

Gardening, playing a musical instrument, various hobbies all have certain aspects similar to meditation. Try reading Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

The guy in the article who said "Buddhists are calm, happy serene people". Wasn't a buddhist monk found guilty of the rape and murder of a UK backpacker a few years ago? I wonder how calm and serene he was?

Did he say every single conscientious Buddhist is that way? Call me crazy, but a survey of rapists and murderers would turn up very few practicing Buddhists.

Because the guys proposition is that buddhists are happy calm and serene. My proposition is that SOME are. Just like you can find calm happy serene people in all walks of life.

According to the evidence not only of these studies but of others, there is a statistically significant difference in the percentage and degree of the brain activity associated with happiness among practicing Buddhists than among the population at large. The researchers have presented evidence. You've presented opinions. If you had any evidence to support your claims you would have a stronger argument.

I'd agree having a peaceful lifestyle is important - more important than whether it's a buddhist lifestyle or not.

Maybe you should tell that to all of the bored, neurotic retirees who live peaceful lifestyles. Or the trust fund kids who never worked a day in their lives but are still profoundly unhappy. We can play this anecdote game all day--what I'd really LOVE to see from either you or Swami is something in the way of facts.

How many of them watched this? And how often are they watching it? My guess is that seeing someone raped 30 years ago and then living in a monastery for the rest of your life is likely to cause less stress than being stuck in traffic every day with 3 kids to feed and a boss hassling you.

Thanks for your guesses. Once again, I'm rather more interested in facts.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: MountainMist]
    #1569398 - 05/22/03 02:43 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

And I am impressed. It is a pity you don't post here more often although I can understand why you might not want to.

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleMountainMist
Stranger

Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 53
Loc: Seattle, Washington
Re: Study: Meditation produces brain changes [Re: Swami]
    #1569403 - 05/22/03 02:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Please show me a study indicating that meditation does no good whatsoever.

My crude personality is a valid demonstration of the lack of efficaciousness of meditation.




I wouldn't call your personality crude at all. You are a healthy skeptic and you enjoy piercing people's illusions. There's nothing wrong with that.

Since you enjoy using your own experiences as proof for your arguments, may I indulge in a little amateur analysis of you? At some point in your life you were taken in by a charlatan and this soured you on meditation, yoga, Buddhism, whatever for ever after. You have the crusading mentality of a former cultee who has sworn never to let it happen again, and who wants to help others avoid the same fate. Hey, I'm fine with that. I believe your motives are noble. Cults are evil, I agree. But you have yet to produce a convincing argument that meditation is a not good thing for many people, much of the time.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds, Bulk Cannabis Seeds, Feminized Cannabis Seeds, High THC Strains, USA West Coast Strains

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Meditation question
( 1 2 3 all )
superpimp 5,193 57 12/23/11 10:00 AM
by Icelander
* meditating while high buttonion 3,282 6 08/01/02 01:52 AM
by ViBrAnT
* brain chems (DMT/psychedelics) vs spritual vessels DigitalDuality 3,615 13 07/13/04 07:44 AM
by JacquesCousteau
* Buddhism Anyone?
( 1 2 3 all )
InnerBeing 3,082 48 12/10/04 05:59 PM
by InnerBeing
* Early Indian Buddhism Kremlin 756 4 10/31/03 10:07 PM
by Kremlin
* Your personal meditation techniques? Blastrid 1,403 14 07/18/02 06:57 AM
by Adamist
* meditation, third eye, and the bible...
( 1 2 all )
Smack31 6,540 26 07/15/02 02:24 PM
by llib
* Heart + Brain tak 1,069 3 07/23/01 10:41 AM
by MarkostheGnostic

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, Jokeshopbeard, DividedQuantum
2,970 topic views. 2 members, 0 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Print Topic ]
Search this thread:
World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2020 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.044 seconds spending 0.004 seconds on 15 queries.