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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: spikeycloud]
    #15676852 - 01/17/12 06:20 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

spikeycloud said:
You mean that the world is created but all the living things still are unique and have their own soul? Otherwise you can never be a solipsism because I know for sure I'm real :wink:




No, I create reality. I regard reality to be made of awareness energy. So, I am awareness energy. Since you are made of awareness energy as well, you can also claim to be the creator of reality. Awareness is undivided, so there si no distinction between you and me on the level of pure awareness.
The fact we are separate individuals does not mean one of us must be real and the other is not.
There are many belief systems where it is said that 'we are all one'. But I find that many theories and religions and philosophies hint at the nature of reality instinctively and build around their intuition declared models of truth. What I have done is to try to see the patterns in reality by looking at those models.

There is only a seeming paradox here. There is only one awareness, which is currently divided into several planes of reality, the physical universe, the mental universe and layers in and between them we have trouble perceiving, but accessible through the psychedelics for example.
In the realm of consciousness, the area where we think and self reflect, the division is among sentient creatures, on earth and elsewhere that we know of by our interest in psychoactive substances. I have communicated with those, I am sure you have too.

However, awareness is indivisible and each of us has the total sum of its totality. It is indivisible in the sense that all things are created from it and that each sentient being has principle access to the total of it, as we create the universe, or rather, I do. I cannot speak for your beliefs naturally.

One of the core truths about this to me is that we all live in a perceptional bubble, that consists of awareness energy, so we all live in a unique universe, All that we share and seems consistent is locked by the consensus, the average momentum of all sentient beings beliefs, hopes, dreams etc. or in other words our mental state of being.

As such there is no reality apart from what we create on our own. Solipsism has some issues that need to be dealth with in order for it to function logically. I beleive I have solves these, so my universe is now fully explainable. But since I exist in my own bubble, my opinion can differ from your own yet still,w e are made of the same energy. From within my sphere I perceive the logic of my own mind in clarifying the situation of reality.

And that is all there is ultimately to it. We have to devise our own schematics and create an inherently logical structure and build it up to the degree of satisfaction that will suffice for each of us.

My system, my cosmology allows for other opinions to be integrated within the overarching structures. The structure of it all itself is in that way modular in some way and whatever comes up I seem to be able to explain it using my own model. For this reason I like my solipsism. Solipsism solves many issues that stem from the diverse intuitions of many people, the religions and the philosophies. The problem with most theories is that they go from a specific vantage point. That means that there are certain presumptions that are the result of not allowing the widest possible perspective and follow reasons and logic from within a model.

What I do is always step outside any model. That is how I integrate the idea that you are your own unique person, asking the question that you asked. I think in the end any TOE needs to be a self fulfilling model, something that always loops back into itself.

One day I will write a book about it.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15676889 - 01/17/12 06:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

I do not make a distinction between reality and myself. Without me there is no reality. When I die, reality collapses with me.




"I do not make a distinction between MY reality and myself. Without me there is no reality (for me to be aware of). When I die, MY reality collapses with me."




Mm. No. What I write is what I mean. I always try to be precise in my wording. And unless I go horribly wrong and make a mistake, what I write you can safely assume to be exactly what I intend to convey.




My correction was a disagreement. You should explain why your view is the correct one, let we think you're simply expressing a fantasy.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #15676890 - 01/17/12 06:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sleepwalker said:
Vaipen, I don't see how solipsism is the only answer to the question of why we have different perspectives.  What if we simply have imperfect tools with which to discern the singular nature of reality. 

A large ball can roll over a small hole without missing a beat.
You can't tell if your balls are wet if you're wearing gloves.




It is not about getting to a point where we can all agree on what reality is. I think that is, well, what is it, that we are culturally affected or biased or perhaps scientifically oriented to want to reach conclusions. A conclusion is a point where you stop asking questions - I never stop asking questions.
To me the whole ball game, no pun intended, is about a lifelong integration of ideas into a logical consistent model of reality. Each of us have to find an answer as to why our personal model is preferable or makes ore sense than another. For it to be  preferable or better you need to observe your own mind and learn to see how it perceives reality.

So you have to understand the way in which your thoughts are unique on these matters, just as each of us dreams in another way. Check Stephen Laberge on the categories he puts forward about peoples' dream languages.

In the end our own personal perspective will always point to solipsism. Because in our universe the fact we can disagree is one of the most fundamental unanswered questions. The fact we can perceive reality differently proves to my mind that the nature of reality has this explicit attribute, that there is something that creates  room for us to think differently.

So then what is this attribute? It must be a fundamental 'law' of some sort. And if there is such a 'law' then why can't it be found?

Perhaps the answer is that the law exist only in a personal fashion. That is, it exists only for the individual who finds it, again pointing toward a solipsist principle. If all these considerations keep pointing or looping back to solipsist principles that then clarify successfully and solve problems successfully of what reality is, then I go with that.

It is this attribute that time and again proves that a TOE or a cosmological model is by default, by this principle, a personal perspective. And it is the reason there will never be an agreement between debaters on, basically, what the fuck is going on. I find that tedious and lacking of satisfaction. I therefore have chosen to adhere to solipsism as my answer and created a model that satisfies me and provides a framework for the integration of new information, seamlessly into my own model.

If that is ultimately a satisfying answer, if you can find such an answer for yourself, then discussion about these things will provide you with information to integrate, but not necessarily an unsatisfying collision of ideas. What else would you need in life, then to find a personal answer to all that is and why and how, if you found your '42'.

The nature of reality allows for this approach, to find this personal model. Truth is not by any means a 'law' of some sort that exists independent of your opinion, bias or availability of information. That means, that if you collect more information you will understand the final answer. It is more the case that a personal satisfying solution will be a truth within your own perceptional bubble. The rest is just enjoying life to its maximum possible extent.

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Rahz]
    #15676928 - 01/17/12 06:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

I do not make a distinction between reality and myself. Without me there is no reality. When I die, reality collapses with me.




"I do not make a distinction between MY reality and myself. Without me there is no reality (for me to be aware of). When I die, MY reality collapses with me."




Mm. No. What I write is what I mean. I always try to be precise in my wording. And unless I go horribly wrong and make a mistake, what I write you can safely assume to be exactly what I intend to convey.




My correction was a disagreement. You should explain why your view is the correct one, let we think you're simply expressing a fantasy.




I would never declare my model to be the truth or the correct one. My model implicitly includes the fact the nature of reality is such that we can have different opinions. McKenna said to never believe anyone but check for yourself and that any guru who exclaims he knows the ultimate truth needs to be regarded with suspicion. I think it was in 'Search for the Original Tree of Knowledge' but I am certain he said it in more workshops or talks.

You seem to make a distinction between 'fantasy' and 'reality'. This to me is funny. :-)

Look at all these different people here, all contributing to the exchange of ideas. All of them have answers to many aspects of the fundamental questions. Most of them seem uneasy or dissatisfied with what they have so far and argue over their points of view, that to their mind and logic some view cannot be right or that someone is quite right in their perspectives.

What we can concluse is that no one can be right or we are all right.

It seems to me that it is amazing the cosmos does not implode or cease to exist because of the collision of conflicting ideas! Something is allowing for this disagreement to be possible. If truth, the ultimate truth of All Things would be around, I do not think there could be disagreement because reality would show us without any possible doubt what it is. We would see it in our mind, we would see it in the world, in the sense that McKenna talks about when he speaks of 'what if I could visually project my meaning into the air before you so we can observe it visually as some structure that can be beheld'.

We would intuitively and logically know it, in our mind or mind's  eye, we would see it in some way embedded within all matter, we would be able to identify it as an undeniable 'god particle' or a wave of some sort. It would be in our vision, in whatever way, all the time.

And yet, it is not. To me this proves that the nature of reality, by default, by this attribute that allows for us to disagree and not see how or why we are different in our opinions, the way in which we can differ without the universe smacking us up the head to correct us, that reality is a personalized TOE and can never be anything else than that.

The fact you would or could disagree with me proves I am right in that respect. :-)

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Offlinespikeycloud
Truth seeker
Male
Registered: 11/22/11
Posts: 254
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15677637 - 01/17/12 11:29 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Vaipen,

I can make the idea of solipsism even more bizarre. What if every human and maybe animal is in reality you in another live? That means that everyone that excist was a past you or a future you mixed in the fabric of space and time.

Edited by spikeycloud (01/17/12 11:32 AM)

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,260
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15680792 - 01/17/12 09:44 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I would never declare my model to be the truth or the correct one.




We can argue semantics but when we express and defend ideas/beliefs there is a string of information leading up to the belief/opinion that caused it to form. It can be said that only the mind exists and everything else is questionable, but we can still deal in likelihoods based on the intake and manipulation of information. Nobody blindly accepts all information as equal. There is the phenomena of being proven wrong, and that is a large part of philosophy. To not question ideas, beliefs, and opinions and to apparently accept them as valid is polite at best.

I think it's neither emphatically possible to refute or prove solipsism, but it seems likely based on phenomenal data that other people's minds will still be existing after mine is gone. :shrug:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: spikeycloud]
    #15681969 - 01/18/12 04:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

spikeycloud said:
Vaipen,

I can make the idea of solipsism even more bizarre. What if every human and maybe animal is in reality you in another live? That means that everyone that excist was a past you or a future you mixed in the fabric of space and time.




I can believe that. Everything there is is awareness, all energy and matter consists of it. People too.

To me this is perfectly logical. It also explains many strange things. Like reincarnation. If you are everything, you in potential can know everything.

I think the universe exists as a place for experience. You see, it is one thing to be awareness, pure, in a situation where there is no universe. But what good would that do? You would be omnipotent and omniscient. A god in the truest definition.

You can foresee everything that can happen, but it never will and never has. For things to occur you need a playpen. That is what the universe is. A structure that allows for experience to be formalised, that every life that could be, would be. In that way it is our parth through life that has all the worth you ever need. To me the afterlife idea is folly. When you die your lifes' experiences are returned to the core of pure awareness, that sits in a non-existing 'place'.

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Rahz]
    #15681988 - 01/18/12 04:24 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

I would never declare my model to be the truth or the correct one.




We can argue semantics but when we express and defend ideas/beliefs there is a string of information leading up to the belief/opinion that caused it to form. It can be said that only the mind exists and everything else is questionable, but we can still deal in likelihoods based on the intake and manipulation of information. Nobody blindly accepts all information as equal. There is the phenomena of being proven wrong, and that is a large part of philosophy. To not question ideas, beliefs, and opinions and to apparently accept them as valid is polite at best.

I think it's neither emphatically possible to refute or prove solipsism, but it seems likely based on phenomenal data that other people's minds will still be existing after mine is gone. :shrug:




But I never said the world is questionable. Only a fool would declare that then take a hammer and smack himself on the head with it. Real or not real, it will hurt.

I do not know what the original solipsists thought. Theirs was an extreme idealistic view. I think the solipsist idea does not necessarily collide with the external reality outside the self at all. They can be synthesized. If I state that all of reality is me, awareness energy, then declare that we can all claim to be that original awareness, then there is no conflict.

Solipsism to me is not about being arrogant and declaring all but yourself is unreal, it is more bestowing everyone with the perception of solipsism. Ultimately it is solipsism that allows for our disagreement, I have talked about this already.

To me all information is equal. It is the same point McKenna makes when he doesn't like science to be the ultimate arbiter of reality.

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