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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: johnm214]
    #14567862 - 06/06/11 03:01 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
How could our situation be caused by the universe dreaming given that it is us, not the universe, whom is asking the question and interpreting the evidence?


The universe could be dreaming us asking the question and interpreting the evidence. :levitate:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePowdered_Toastman
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Poid]
    #14568731 - 06/06/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i think the way solipsism has always made sense to me is that we do in fact create our world around us, maybe not through physical perception, but think of the illusions in everyday life, the things that are society created, beleifs, fashion, television, music, etc. it all seems to me that this was all created through individual perception and how we interpret everyday life based on opinions and beleifs. Another idea for creating our own universe is the ability to create your own emotions and outlook, for example, someone walks by a painting and thinks it is absolutely revolting, while another walks by and finds it a masterpeice, idk if i am getting at anything


--------------------
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

You are God and I am You


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Poid]
    #14568835 - 06/06/11 10:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
...to me it means it is the universe which is dreaming us, rather than the other way around.


So you believe that the universe as a whole is a conscious entity capable of having dreams?




Thanks for asking rather than assuming. I was having a bit of fun with the idea behind Solipsism.

I do not think the universe is dreaming in any anthropomorphic sense, but it seems closer to reality than suggesting I am dreaming the universe, though I understand that it is the limitations of the mind and primacy of experience which created the idea of Solopsism.

:shrug:

Logic can also be used to read between the lines.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Poid]
    #14606921 - 06/13/11 03:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Rahz said:
...to me it means it is the universe which is dreaming us, rather than the other way around.


So you believe that the universe as a whole is a conscious entity capable of having dreams?



sure why not


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Kaleidoscope said:
If you build an idiot-proof device, someone will build a better idiot.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: evildee125] * 1
    #14606924 - 06/13/11 03:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Because that is a retarded belief, based on nothing besides wishful thinking.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Poid]
    #14606967 - 06/13/11 03:27 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I would say the universe is capable of dreaming as demonstrated by our capability for dreaming. We are part of the universe and we are made of the stuff of the universe and we dream, so...


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #14607242 - 06/13/11 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Tchan909 said:
I would say the universe is capable of dreaming as demonstrated by our capability for dreaming. We are part of the universe and we are made of the stuff of the universe and we dream, so...




:thumbup:

However, this is just a matter of defining "the universe" differently.  This is not what evildee was talking about.

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Offlineevildee125
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Poid]
    #14620831 - 06/16/11 02:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Because that is a retarded belief, based on nothing besides wishful thinking.



thats just your view of it.. nothing more  :peace::heart:


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Kaleidoscope said:
If you build an idiot-proof device, someone will build a better idiot.

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Offlinespikeycloud
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #15672539 - 01/16/12 06:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.




I think its pretty logical that solipsism does not exist for the following reason.

If everything there is, is just an imagination of your mind, then solipism is also an imagination of the mind (and your mind also for that matter). This goes in an endless impossible loop, therefore it is impossible for solipsism to be real.

Also how do you know what's real if you cannot compaire with something else that is real :wink:

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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #15672719 - 01/16/12 08:18 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.




I am a solipsist. But there are those who find flaw with the idea. Personally I have solved these issues so to me there can be solipsism in its original core form while there are still other humans around. This to me is no paradox.

For me solipsism is the only ultimate answer to understanding reality because it solves many issues you otherwise have to account for.

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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Icelander]
    #15672729 - 01/16/12 08:22 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I can guarantee that nobody's day to day actions reflect this philosophy whether they believe it or not.

But it sure is fun to pretend we believe it. :pope:




A strange position. I am a solipsist and to me it is not a matter of philosophical debate or just some mind game. So my day to day perceptions are enframed by this model. That doesn't mean I walk up to people to exclaim 'you exist only in my mind.'

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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Rahz]
    #15672795 - 01/16/12 08:55 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I will argue that the entire system we percieve is set up in such a way that logically, it will go on without us and was going on without us, and is going on without us to a very large degree.

That's not to say the universe we exist in could have existed without us, but to me it means it is the universe which is dreaming us, rather than the other way around.




I do not make a distinction between reality and myself. Without me there is no reality. When I die, reality collapses with me.

Have you ever wondered why it is possible that there exist different opinions abd views on reality etc?

Has anyone ever given you an answer to that question? Have you ever heard the question asked?

Apparently, reality has 'room' for many opinions or perceptions as to what it is. We take that 'room' for granted as we discuss all sort of topics. But no one ever seems to wonder how it can be that you and I can have different ideas on these matters.

What is it about reality that makes it possible to have different ideas? If there is some ultimate truth, like laws of nature that science shows there are, that are independent of our perspective of them, how could we disagree about them? Would they not be so obvious that opinion would not be possible about them?

Somehow reality allows for perspectives.

It seems therefore that solipsism is the only answer. Reality exists only to our minds; we can only know what enters our mind, the rest we cannot know. It is the separation between our minds that allows for reality to be regarded in many different ways. Solipsism creates this 'room' for different outlooks.

In that sense you could describe reality as foam. Within each bubble there is one mind.

The fact we can agree on many things is what I call the 'consensus'. This is a mean average of all mans' hopes, dreams, convictions, expectations, desires, emotions, feelings and so on and so forth. This consensus stabilizes or fixates reality to reflect this average. This consensus has a momentum.

Terrence McKenna has his timewave zero theory and Rupert Sheldrake talks about something similar, morphogenic fields and that things become easier once they have occurred before. They are talking about the same thing.

The consensus has momentum and opposing it will not yield you an alteration of reality. To achieve that the momentum has to be overcome. McKenna called it habit after Sheldrake suggested that. Habit is what I call momentum. It is a force alike a train on a rail.
Sheldrake states that the past affects the present, which is another way of saying that consensus is maintained by previous events.

I have come to the same conclusion and was surprised when I learned about these two guys having the same idea.

To change reality, the momentum of consensus, the habit needs to be overcome by a force equal or greater to the momentum.

In the past people believed the earth was flat. I believe that it was. Nowadays we beleive the earth is a sphere. When observations got spread among scholars and within the church, slowly and steadily people became used to the idea and started to accept this new worldview. At some point a critical mass was reached and reality flipped over to reflect this new idea. At that moment reality changed. We would argue that the earth had always been a sphere. I do not believe so. When reality changes, it does so backward in time to make it look like the new situation had always been.

If this is the case, reality is merely a temporary agreement until a new consensus is reached. Therefore reality as such does not exist independently of the combined view of reality of all sentient beings.

For this reason I think when we enter into the psychedelic trip and meet other entities, they appear to us in sometimes indescribable forms. Their perception of reality differs from our own, therefore communication is so hard. There is no preset , no consensus between it and ourselves. You cannot ask them if they live on a planet, a sphere when they believe reality consists of Flatland.

So the fact that the world will go on when we die from the position of the survivior looking at granny in a coffin is by no means proof reality didn't collapse. It did for granny, and to granny that is all that matters.

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Offlineyeah
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Powdered_Toastman]
    #15673291 - 01/16/12 11:14 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'm alive suck my dick - my refutation


--------------------

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15673348 - 01/16/12 11:42 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I do not make a distinction between reality and myself. Without me there is no reality. When I die, reality collapses with me.




"I do not make a distinction between MY reality and myself. Without me there is no reality (for me to be aware of). When I die, MY reality collapses with me."

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Offlinespikeycloud
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15673664 - 01/16/12 01:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.




I am a solipsist. But there are those who find flaw with the idea. Personally I have solved these issues so to me there can be solipsism in its original core form while there are still other humans around. This to me is no paradox.

For me solipsism is the only ultimate answer to understanding reality because it solves many issues you otherwise have to account for.




You mean that the world is created but all the living things still are unique and have their own soul? Otherwise you can never be a solipsism because I know for sure I'm real :wink:

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: spikeycloud]
    #15674014 - 01/16/12 02:54 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

spikeycloud said:
Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.




I think its pretty logical that solipsism does not exist for the following reason.

If everything there is, is just an imagination of your mind, then solipism is also an imagination of the mind (and your mind also for that matter). This goes in an endless impossible loop, therefore it is impossible for solipsism to be real.





How does that follow?  You just declare this conclusion, but don't explain how it follows from your premise and reasoning.  How is an "endless loop" impossible and inconsistant with solipism?  That the world imagined by us is not real is all that is neccesary for metaphysical solipsism to be correct, and whatever the further consequences be, it does not change this status.

As for the claim that there exists an "endless loop", I don't see how.  Why would solipsism being an imagination of the mind render it 'impossible' or something like that?

As an aside, it seems you are using the term 'solipsism' in a strange way- the mind's existance is not challenged by the concepts typically represented in the solipsist view, therefore this assertion in your post seems entirely unjustified.


Quote:

Also how do you know what's real if you cannot compaire with something else that is real :wink:




It is you that has the burden of demonstrating that this is so.  I don't see how this question justified your apparent presumption that there is some problem with understanding what is real.

And again, the mind is one such 'real' thing you could compare to, even if you are correct.

Quote:

spikeycloud said:
Quote:

Vaipen said:
Quote:

Powdered_Toastman said:
Since solipsism refers to only the self existing and everything else is just part of the mind, does that make it impossible to debunk? This concept seems kind of scary.




I am a solipsist. But there are those who find flaw with the idea. Personally I have solved these issues so to me there can be solipsism in its original core form while there are still other humans around. This to me is no paradox.

For me solipsism is the only ultimate answer to understanding reality because it solves many issues you otherwise have to account for.




You mean that the world is created but all the living things still are unique and have their own soul? Otherwise you can never be a solipsism because I know for sure I'm real :wink:





So what?  You claiming you know your own reality doesn't present any obvious problem to the solipsist view, and you've not even alleged any such problem.

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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: 4896744]
    #15675642 - 01/16/12 09:12 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Samurai Drifter said:
What is the self, and what is the mind?

Those two questions should be answered before one decides whether solipsism is even a coherent viewpoint.




i think they are the same thing, that is, the interaction between our nervous system and the environment. in this sense we are much bigger than our bodies give us credit for.

Quote:

iThink said:
I can guarantee that nobody's day to day actions reflect this philosophy whether they believe it or not.




i think there are some autistic people who reflect this philosophy whether they know it or not.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Vaipen]
    #15676675 - 01/17/12 04:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Vaipen, I don't see how solipsism is the only answer to the question of why we have different perspectives.  What if we simply have imperfect tools with which to discern the singular nature of reality. 

A large ball can roll over a small hole without missing a beat.
You can't tell if your balls are wet if you're wearing gloves.

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Offlinespikeycloud
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #15676769 - 01/17/12 05:20 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Again, solipsism can never be real. Because if you're real and the rest is fake. Your realness is based on a fake world so how can you know that you're real then? And how did you know that something like solipsism excist :confused:  The same aplies to the term nothing, nothing does not exist because you need something to define there is nothing.

It's just so stupid

Edited by spikeycloud (01/17/12 05:35 AM)

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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Is it impossible to refute solipsism? [Re: Rahz]
    #15676820 - 01/17/12 05:59 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
Quote:

I do not make a distinction between reality and myself. Without me there is no reality. When I die, reality collapses with me.




"I do not make a distinction between MY reality and myself. Without me there is no reality (for me to be aware of). When I die, MY reality collapses with me."




Mm. No. What I write is what I mean. I always try to be precise in my wording. And unless I go horribly wrong and make a mistake, what I write you can safely assume to be exactly what I intend to convey.

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