Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu
    #1560161 - 05/19/03 01:33 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Liberation from in the between.

I know there are some practicioners here..please explain what the arts mean to you, how they make you feel, and the ancient memory located within the movements.

To me, the internal arts represent formlessness. Like water.
The chi that flows within, to neutralize, to respond.

Putting my thoughts from this category into words is difficult, so I just go with the first thing that pops into my head. Bruce Lee, Yang Jwing-Ming..my heros.


The inside is trained so that it will affect the outside

"Use the mind to direct the chi and the chi to mobilise the body." Cheng Man Ching (1947)




--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1560178 - 05/19/03 01:38 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


Tai Chi to me is like a creative/expressive movement that just flows. It's almost an instinctual thing that excorsizes my soul, mind and body all at once.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1560182 - 05/19/03 01:40 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

It flows well.

And DAMN!..does it feel good~!


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1560207 - 05/19/03 01:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


That it does my friend.........that it does.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1560238 - 05/19/03 02:01 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I read a book once about Qi and Qi Gong, which I found to be extremely interesting. Titled Encounters With Qi, it was written by a Western medical doctor who went to China to study the concept and existence of Qi. He talked about interviews and demonstration sessions he held with Qi Gong masters, and the evidence he gave for the existence of Qi was pretty much undeniable, to me at least.

I don't know anything about Tai Chi at all, but it all sounds very similar to Yoga and the Buddhist concept of Prana. I am a practitioner of yoga myself, and it has given me boundless benefits already. I am now aware of and can feel a strong energy that resides within my own body, and all around me. Through different yogic practices, I have gotten in touch with that energy and reached some beginning states of heightened awareness and bliss.

I can definitely tell that yoga has already begun to unlock and strengthen some of the energy channels within my body, and I feel the flow getting stronger everyday. As I continue in my practice, I am able to perform increasingly difficult physical feats which were once impossible for me, and this I see as proof for the power of yoga. The way it makes me feel on an emotional, mental, and spiritual level is more than enough proof as well.

From the little I know, it sounds like the goals of Tai Chi and Yoga are pretty much the same, and I think they are both wonderful practices. I'd like to know more about the philosophy behind Tai Chi, if anyone would care to inform me or direct me to some good links.

Peace,

RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1560304 - 05/19/03 02:20 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Tai Chi and Yoga are very similar as you guessed. Chi is basically the chinese version of prana.. it is the same thing.. energy. In the west we call it bioelectric energy. Tai chi, like yoga, prepares the body to harness chi energy, and utilize it at will.

Where Yoga focuses mainly on body posture and manipulation to achieve inner harmony, Tai Chi is designed to promote harmony within the human systems (nervous system, organs, blood, muscles, etc) and also serves a dual purpose as useful in martial applications. T'ai Chi Ch'uan translates to "Supreme Ultimate Fist"... Qi Gong, literally means "Breath exercise"

Tai Chi is based on balancing your internal energies before you ever attempt using them externally. Qi Gong, or Chi Kung as it is pronounced, are exercises specifically directed towards re-balancing and maintaining the five fold energy systems in the body.

Here are some links for your perusal.. I wish I could make more analogies comparing yoga and tai chi, but unfortunately I am not so well learned in yoga. I do know that there are many similarities, as the chinese system of 'balancing the 5 systems', and the yoga '7 chakras'... they are interconnected on some level. Prana and Chi are the exact same thing as far as I am concerned.

http://www.mtsu.edu/~jpurcell/Taichi/taichi.htm
http://www.taichiproductions.com/articles/print.php?articleid=2&title=Four%20Qigong%20Exercises
http://www.rembrandt.gen.nz/rem/taichi.html
http://www.alchemilla.com/martial/qigong.html


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1560462 - 05/19/03 03:09 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


As I continue in my practice, I am able to perform increasingly difficult physical feats which were once impossible for me, and this I see as proof for the power of yoga.

You mean you can suck your own wang?  :shocked:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1560572 - 05/19/03 03:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

:tongue:

Why is it that every guy who knows I do yoga asks me this???
To answer your question, though. . . . . . .

Not yet! :wink:

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1560602 - 05/19/03 03:52 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for the links, Shroomism. Just so you know, there are many different types of Yoga. The one known most to Westerners is Hatha Yoga, which does focus on body postures (asanas) to open up and strengthen the energy channels in the body, making for a better flow of Prana/Chi.

This is the the branch of Yoga that I am most learned in, but I have recently been doing research on the other branches and what they are all about. Each seems to focus on a different method, but all have as their goal to awaken the Kundalini, resulting in Self-Realization and ultimate bliss and enlightenment.

It is such a fascinating topic that I plan to continue reading about in the near future. Anyway, thanks again for the links... I'm sure those will make for some interesting reading as well.

Peace,

RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1560633 - 05/19/03 04:00 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


Not yet!

LOL!  :laugh:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1560866 - 05/19/03 05:21 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quick question, did you get your internet access, straight, will you be visiting the shroomery more, (cough*- now that 4th will really be "kicking in more") during this coming summer?

Ti ching and the acitvation of my dna?

I would love to learn some form of martial arts someday!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFatNug
Si-Hing

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
Loc: Everywhere at 1nce
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1561729 - 05/19/03 09:51 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

its peace... It makes me feel like water, or like a calm breeze. I usually do it after i do my Iron Palm exersizes. At first it makes my hands and arms tingle. after awhile the energy just explodes like a waterfall, and its like i dont even have to think about the movements they just happen, it feels like im underwater, i can just feel the energy all around me as my body gently slides through it. Sorry I got alittle excited there, its just so nice. So calm, so powerful.


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: FatNug]
    #1562114 - 05/20/03 12:43 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

***disclaimer*** I'm not just trying to be mean.

That having been said, I have to say: all of this romanticising of eastern spiritual practices seems to be really unauthentic. Groups of white people co-opting something really sacred from another culture? I know that native american intellectuals get hella pissed off at "neo-shaman" who like to mimic native religions.... just think about it: how could a westerner really understand something like yoga or tai chi, however rigorous the training? There are so many untranslatable, culturally bound memes that are part of these practices.

I get what you guys are getting off on though, I like to glorify the past too. Rainbow gatherings / tribal style raves are fucking cool shit. I just don't like people acting like they are tapping into something that is directly tansferable to modern western life. It's insulting.

I would recommend long distance running as a transcultural (and inoffensive) means of reaching a physical-spiritual connection.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Malachi]
    #1562144 - 05/20/03 12:56 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)


I just don't like people acting like they are tapping into something that is directly tansferable to modern western life. It's insulting.

Insulting? I find it to be a good thing. I think a great culture is one that can spread itself into others after it's gone bacause theirs was so influential. It allows the human race to grow imo.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1562188 - 05/20/03 01:24 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

oh, of course I agree that westerner ought to learn from the rest of the world. I just think that the ideas should be seperate from religious practices. Going to the gym for yogo? yogo 'classes'? its commercial exploitation of the sacred. Like that taco bell commercial were the guy is floating because he has reached 'taco nirvana'. While people flocking to the exoticness of tai chi seems about the same to me.

I guess I'm just saying that these things ought to be taken seriously, and popular things are never taken seriously.

It's insulting regardless of whether its popularity is indicative of the greatness or influence of a given culture - that culture doesn't need validation of white people who are into a new fad.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Malachi]
    #1562239 - 05/20/03 01:43 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)


'taco nirvana'

LOL! I never seen that commertial, but then I don't watch much tv.

I see your point, and in some ways I agree with you- but overall I think we should agree to disagree. I don't like how some butcher other cultures, that I agree with.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Malachi]
    #1562678 - 05/20/03 10:45 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1562825 - 05/20/03 12:06 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I know that native american intellectuals get hella pissed off at "neo-shaman" who like to mimic native religions.... just think about it: how could a westerner really understand something like yoga or tai chi, however rigorous the training? There are so many untranslatable, culturally bound memes that are part of these practices.

Nope, I disagree. Tai Chi crosses cultural barriers easily. You don't have to translate anything because it's all in your body, and we all have bodies. I agree with what you're saying applied to something like shamanism, because when a native american says "spirit" we have a totally different understanding of what a spirit or ghost is. But when the Chinese man says "relax your shoulder" there isn't any room for misinterpretation. You relax your shoulder.

That bit about westerners never being able to understand tai chi no matter how rigorous the training? Well, that's silly. The best martial artist I've ever seen is a white guy. He trains ba gua, shing yi, and tai chi. He is the lineage represantative to North America for 6 harmonies shing yi and a Chen style tai chi form. This means that the lineage holders in China decided that there is nobody better in North America at these styles of any race, which makes him the undisputable authority on them. So yes I agree that we love to bastardize and worship other cultures, and there are without a doubt many scam artists out there teaching bullshit tai chi to cash in on what people think tai chi is. There's this guy in town who's been teaching for decades, and he's just a groovy feel good hippy guy. He has no skill whatsoever as a martial artist, but people flock to him because he teaches what other hippy neo shaman types believe tai chi is. They just want to groove around together and "feel the flow." That aspect of tai chi is there sure, but remember that as Shroomism pointed out Tai Chi Chuan translates as Supreme Ultimate Fist (or fighting style). The genuine Tai Chi is not for the people with the weak stomachs. Learning to kill other humans is a very interesting and profound experience that not everybody is up to.

Anyway, back to the original question..

Internal Chinese martial arts are a non-religious spiritual practice that I can tap into and is accessible to anyone who can find the right teacher. When I say spiritual I mean that in Chinese terms.. Spirit or Sheng is your conscious awareness, and arts like ba gua, shing yi, and tai chi will change your spirit. It gives you a richer metaphor for the internal happenings of your body, so your self-awareness changes.

Because the big three internal Chinese martial arts (the ones I've mentioned) are based on models of how the universe works, to gain skill as a martial artist in these styles you have to understand principles of the universe (yin and yang, the five elements, the eight triagrams). Your body is part of the universe, so if you can get a rich inner understanding of your own body then you'll understand the workings of everything.

There are lots of philosophies and spiritual pursuits that will teach you this sort of thing, but you can't test them like you can martial arts. It's like you come up with a philosophy and then you can test if it's true or not by getting in a fight. You lose the fight and it means that your understanding of the universe was incomplete.

The group I've been training with lately is pretty rad. The teacher charges 25$ (canadian) a month, and he teaches 7 classes a week. It's great to have really regular training sessions with other people and a good teacher. We do it all outdoors, and we're a small group. I've trained external styles when I was younger, cause jumping around doing explosive and pretty forms is hella fun, but there's a real different feel with a group doing internal martial arts. Because we put so much emphasis on applications of the moves, we've all developed an interesting friendship. We're a bunch of guys practicing killing people on eachother. This is some pretty hardcore shit, cause the internal martial arts are the real deal, and I think confronting the scary side of humanity like this has formed an interesting bond among those of us doing it together. I mean, we're a light-hearted group and there's a lot more joking around than in the kung fu movies, but sometimes I get this eerie feeling of "Holy fuck I know how to kill someone with my bare hands in a matter of seconds."

But it's all good. The better trained you are, then the less desperate you will be in a real fight which leaves you in enough control of the situation that you don't have to take it as far as killing someone else to save yourself.

My advice to anybody who wants to check this stuff out is don't train with just anybody. Don't go to tai chi school chains like the Taoist Tai Chi Society. They're bunk and just teach crap that isn't worth your time. Check out the tournament scene. Find the people with the credentials. There's a community out there, and once you tap into it you'll be able to find good teachers almost wherever you go. If you don't have someone locally then go to seminars and train intensively every now and then with a teacher and then practice on your own. I've seen a lot of people who are very keen on martial arts and who possess lots of natural ability get locked in with shitty teachers and never become aware of just how deep martial arts can go.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineFatNug
Si-Hing

Registered: 11/21/01
Posts: 150
Loc: Everywhere at 1nce
Last seen: 18 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1563999 - 05/20/03 08:13 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

couldnt have said it better myself


--------------------
================================================So what's your peace of mind huh? A swiss watch? leasin' a Lex on credit? all the pussy and liquor a nigga can get..put together this puzzle, but my pieces won't fit.. {Ras kass}

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: FatNug]
    #1564007 - 05/20/03 08:17 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


I want to get into Kempo. But I like using 2 Wakazashis instead of the Diasho. Tai Chi seems it would actually help with Kempo.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 20 years, 2 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1564208 - 05/20/03 09:31 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Anyone going to see the movie, tao chi soccer?

A couple parts of the movie id like to describe:

During the previewing of it:

1. i saw some very interesting moves such as when a guy kicks the soccer ball, it flys about a good 500 ft in the air.

2. a little scrony girl moves an entire vehicle, just by a little push!

3. Alots of psi art, and full of super abilitys

I know ill be seeing it, i don't know when it comes out though.

Bruce almighty comes out this friday!


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1564408 - 05/20/03 10:28 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I know a man who practices authetic Chi Knug, and Gung Fu.

One of my best friends also practices both.


Both of them are extremely interesting, I myself pracitced Gong Fu for about a month, learned a few forms of dragon, and dropped out because it required FAR too much willpower I didnt have.


The teacher I had taught the true pracice though, and man is it SO different than ANY dojo that claims to teach real martial arts in america.

Sure, ANYONE can learn martial arts forms. But that doesnt teach you how to fight at all. Only a true wise teacher who knows what he is doing can do this. No movie, no dojo in america ....someone with REAL experience.


You can spend 10 years in any american dojo pretty much, and then have somenoe spend one year with a TRUE teacher who teaches real discipline and real fighting - guarantee you get your ass kicked.



True gong fu goes beyond kicking somenoes ass though. The first step is developing good fighting skills and then wanting to kick someone's ass. The second is the willpower you get. The third is understanding, compassion. Atleast thats how i see it unfold.



Chi Kung is also hard as shit if taught correctly. Meditation is hard enough, sitting somenoe without moving for 30 minutes following your breath with your awareness. Chi Kung is atleast twice as hard, standing a certain pose that you will DEFINATELY feel.




Enough of this rant.


Gong Fu is a GEAT discipline for anyone, but the TRUE practice is something VERY few people will continue throughout their life because its requires much willpower. Martial arts in the form of Gong Fu is a "program" for your subconscious, a very healthy and well built one. After practicing true gong fu for one month, I started to wonder if this technology is alien in nature, because of how complex and intelligent it is.

Chi Kung is a VERY good form of healing, and also teaches discipline. Nothing will preserve your health quite as well if you practice this correctly, along with stretching and good diet.

Zen wasnt mentioned, but this is important too. Observing the mind, body, thoughts, emotions, everything that you consider "you". Learning yourself from the inside, and applying that knowledge to your life.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineHagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Male User Gallery

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 20 days, 19 hours
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1564518 - 05/20/03 10:57 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

So what art would be best for a beginner and where can I find a legitimate teacher? ie. one that isn't full of shit and actually teaches these aspects of the art effectively.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1564720 - 05/20/03 11:57 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

the only effective eastern martial arts are jiu-jitsu and judo... everything else may look pretty, but its NOT effective.... one touch attacks... its total bullshit. if you want to learn to fight, take kickboxing, boxing, or muay-thai. this only has to do with the fighting aspect of this thread

the inner force stuff..like meditation that goes along with the training.. well i don't know about that, so whatever floats your boat.

Edited by LoOnEr (05/21/03 12:01 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinethestringphish
vajrayana

Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 521
Loc: on my way to another plac...
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1564848 - 05/21/03 12:57 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the only effective eastern martial arts are jiu-jitsu and judo... everything else may look pretty, but its NOT effective.... one touch attacks... its total bullshit




If you ever saw a real Shao Lin monk fight, you would eat those words. I garantee any monk with average ability could fuck up the best kick boxer on the planet, convincingly. Watching them move is hipnotic and they do it with power that seems unreal, like it belongs in a movie or something, but no, it's real, and very "effective". Not at all total bullshit.


--------------------
Ken Wilbur

"this is life changing"

welcomehome

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: thestringphish]
    #1565176 - 05/21/03 08:06 AM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I garantee any monk with average ability could fuck up the best kick boxer on the planet, convincingly.

what fighting style do the shaolin monks practice? kung fu? that style has been tried in events such as the ufc and other mixed martial arts, and how did they do? they were destroyed, convincingly... there is a sport which finds out the best martial art, and after all these crazy "fu's" and "wang's" entered for their first time, it was also their last. it is just NOT effective.

Not at all total bullshit.

i said the "one-touch" and "being able to kill someone with one hand instantly" is bullshit... and it is.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1566104 - 05/21/03 01:37 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

the only effective eastern martial arts are jiu-jitsu and judo... everything else may look pretty, but its NOT effective.... one touch attacks... its total bullshit. if you want to learn to fight, take kickboxing, boxing, or muay-thai. this only has to do with the fighting aspect of this thread

the inner force stuff..like meditation that goes along with the training.. well i don't know about that, so whatever floats your boat.



While I agree that jiu-jitsu is an excellent combat art (judo is a derivative of jiu jitsu with improved training methods and elements removed in the lower ranks for sporting purposes) I think you should check out Pa Kua Chang. It is very effective and is designed to handle multiple attackers - it was used by body guards in China. My wife witnessed a blow-hard Tae Kwon Do black belt instructor who wouldn't shut up about his perceived combat skills, until our friend who is proficient in Pa Kua Chang asked him to quit bragging. Of course the Tae Kwon Do fellow tried to engage him in a fight. It was really very comical watching the high kicks that kept missing their mark and punches to a body that wasn't there when they arrived. After what seemed to be about 20 minutes, when the braggart was exhausted, my friend decided to place his first blow (a kick to the chest) and ended his nonsense.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNewSpore
Just Starting toSee the Light

Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 467
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1567451 - 05/21/03 09:16 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)



Digressing from the original topic, I have to say this. The Dim Mak or " Death Touch" target points are real. They basically are the trigger points for many meridians in the body. The only problem is ......... is that your opponent is moving and most likely has a offensive and defensive plan too. So getting to hit the points you want is not easy . Although I know some fellows in the NYC area that are good enough to do anything they want to you and you cant do a dam thing about it..............
Any Southern Short fist Kung Fu guy worth his salt has trained to learn where they are or they focus on the center line attacks which consist of many of the points. I have never counted on ONE HIT to disable a opponent, so its more like multiple touch that leads to kidney or liver, heart or lung issues ........either at that moment or later on.


















--------------------
Be in truth and watch the magic happen.
SBP TEK

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1567660 - 05/21/03 10:30 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

murex- What's Kempo? is it like kendo?


dogomush- isn't the whole point that it's not just physical, that you're controling spiritial energy? so just doing the steps won't cut it... a skeptic is going to do the rountine, but he's not going to "get it". I think that heavy indoctrination into an asian manner of thinking is needed, something that the white guy you refer to undoubtedly had. Authorities always stress the fundamental difference in perspective from east to west, and the transformation has been tradtionally viewed as severe and dramatic (think shogun). I'm sorry, but I don't think that knowing some hexagrams is sufficient to declare that you are a practitioner of an "asian" spirituality. why limit yourself? accept that you are an amalgam of influences, perhaps some asian, but mush more likely english or scandanavian or whatnot-- part of a new age of integration but still of progression and newness.

at least for me, my western mind to too rational to accept that making certain movements activate spiritual energy. Sure, working out puts me in an altered state - running or sparing or whatever - but it's romantic to think that this one particular 'form' is the secret way to tap into whatever. I sure think that it looks cool though, and alot of the forms would be cool to integrate into liquid style dancing.


2 questions:


explain 'inner' and 'outer'. sounds like you just mean 'fast' and 'slow'. ?

and if this is so, how do you kill people with tai chi? do you do the forms quickly?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Malachi]
    #1567738 - 05/21/03 10:57 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


Oh, sorry, I got konfuzed. I meant Kendo. :tongue:


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1567745 - 05/21/03 10:59 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)

I thought the sword was called a "shinai" or some such? what are Wakazashis and Diasho?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Malachi]
    #1567761 - 05/21/03 11:03 PM (21 years, 2 months ago)


Diasho = 2 swords: the Katana and the Wakazashi (the weapons of the Samurai).

A Wakazashi is a short sword; like a shorter version of a katana.


I have applied my movements whit my swords to dancing and it's been really cool how much they are simillar.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1573882 - 05/24/03 12:48 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't had one of these discussions for a long time. Good stuff. They don't usually go anywhere, but this is a different crowd than most so we'll see.

Malachi:
I don't know what you mean by "spiritual energy." Chinese internal martial arts (Tai Chi, Ba Gua (pa kua), Shing Yi being the main styles) aren't what you think. People say all different kinds of things to describe Tai Chi.. they say it's meditation with body movements, and all these things, but none of this is true. Tai Chi is Tai Chi. You can't explain it any other way.

but I don't think that knowing some hexagrams is sufficient to declare that you are a practitioner of an "asian" spirituality

I don't think any Tai Chi player would declare that. What makes me a wanna-be spiritual guy just because I practice a certain kind of art? I'm an artist not a priest or monk. And why should I need to be immersed in Chinese culture when it's all in the body? And trust me it is. It can't be put into words. The process of these arts is this: The teacher explains the movement, demonstrates the movement, and you mimic it. The teacher watches you, and tries to perfect the coreography. You have a question about minute less visible details, and the teacher answers the question. You practice, and you work towards getting it. You can't communicate what it feels like to get it right, and the teacher can't explain to you exactly how to do it. It's not in the words. The teacher and the student don't even need to speak the same language. It's in the body.. that's the whole point.

To compare Buddhism and Taoism, people say that the buddhist flys into the cosmos looking straight up away from his body, and the daoist looks into his body and grows into the cosmos from the feet. These martial arts are deeply rooted in Taoist philosophy.

I know another white guy from the interior of British Columbia (not at all chinese) and he trained almost exclusively in North America with some very high level Chinese guys. He started when he was 18 and now he's about 40. He's awesome. His Chinese teachers called him young master. There's a guy with little exposure to Chinese culture approved of by the real deal (by your standards).

So yeah.. I guess my point is a nutshell is that you don't know what the Chinese internal martial arts are.

explain 'inner' and 'outer'. sounds like you just mean 'fast' and 'slow'. ?

and if this is so, how do you kill people with tai chi? do you do the forms quickly?


By inner and outer I'm guessing you mean internal and external styles of martial arts? Well an internal martial art would have a lot more going on inside the body energetically or in subtle invisible movements than an external style. An internal style would focus more on cultivating a richer internal understanding of your own body than an external style. A more complicated metaphor web of sensation that you feel and work with. There's a lot going on with Tai Chi, but to the untrained eye not much is going on, which is exactly why you wonder how you could ever kill someone with it.

Some say internal styles are "soft" and external are "hard" but this isn't accurate. Shing yi is internal, but also as hard as they get.. Big chopping attacks and straight forward fist attacks. Ba Gua can go either way, open palm stuff, throws, pushes, with maybe the odd iron arms swinging about. Chen style Tai Chihas more hard movements than other styles of Tai Chi, but most would call it soft.

For your question about how one would kill someone with Tai Chi.. Tai Chi has a lot going on in every movement. More than you can understand. You train it slow because you're trying to get all the details right and different body parts working and supporting eachother. Nobody will ever master Tai Chi completely. There is always more going on than you can keep track of at a fast speed.

Basically when you train Tai Chi you are training your body's structure. Someone I've learned from who's very very high level always talks about structure. All you have to do is train your own structure and how to connect into somebody elses structure. When the two structures meet, hope yours is stronger. So I guess training your structure with Tai Chi is how you kill someone with it. I'll get more into what his structure is capable of in a bit.

the only effective eastern martial arts are jiu-jitsu and judo... everything else may look pretty, but its NOT effective.... one touch attacks... its total bullshit. if you want to learn to fight, take kickboxing, boxing, or muay-thai. this only has to do with the fighting aspect of this thread

"The only effective eastern martial arts are jiu jitsu and Judo".. I disagree. I've watched UFC and I've watched the Gracies do their shit. It's a totally ridiculous and impractical way to fight. It works in the ring, but not in real life. In real life the floor is rough concrete, scattered with broken glass and dirty heroin needles. You don't get into fair fights on the street, at least not when you fight for your life. While you're rolling around in the glass-strewn street for twenty minutes with your attacker his girlfriend isn't going to be just standing there. She'll have a piece of metal in her hand right away, and just to add insult to injury, the attacker had a dirty heroin needle in his pocket and while you were hugging him close the needle point peirced through the clothing separating you two and poked you. You've got aids. Great.

Kickboxing (muay thai style) is another totally impractical martial art. the application of martial arts is in fighting, and training to fight should be about protecting your body from harm. Well guess what? Bone on bone attacks are seriously harsh. Sure, a cut kick into someone's knee is deadly as can be, but where are the 30 year old kickboxers? Walking with canes. Doesn't protect you from bodily harm if you ask me. In the Thai ghetto it can be worth destroying yourself for a chance at a better life.. regular meals, but you stay in that ring for long, even if you're the best, and you'll have too many shin bone collisions to walk.

what fighting style do the shaolin monks practice? kung fu? that style has been tried in events such as the ufc and other mixed martial arts, and how did they do? they were destroyed

Kung Fu means hard work and long time.. The term Kung Fu means your life's work. A carpenter can have good kung fu if he's a good carpenter. When the white guys asked the Chinese guys what those martial artists were doing the chinese said "oh they're practicing kung fu." So when you refer to Kung Fu as "that style" then you understand that your ignorance has been exposed. You literally have no idea what you're talking about.

People who feel the same way you do are fairly common. I have some anecdotes for you. A Teacher I know was teaching a class of 90 people one day. He demonstrated a move where he took the attackers forward energy and sent it past himself so the guy went stumbling about 10 feet behind him. The person he demonstrated it on was one of those guys like "sure, Tai Chi guys have amazing skills, they can send me flying, but what does it matter when I can just come running back at them again?" Well, this is what he did. He thought he'd show his superiority in front of 90 people by attacking the teacher from behind with an elbow into his ribs. He hit him, and then bounced off (that's what a good structure is). I know, these are worthless anecdotes that prove nothing, but I'm not telling them just for you, looner.

One time he demonstrated a principle by having us all push on him at the same time from different angles. You could push his hand down, his back forward, his shoulder sideways, all different angles, and although the angles were completely different every pusher could feel him pushing them right back. This is "bung" energy. "Internally stretched externally bound" is what it's all about.

And yes I know people who I'm confident could win UFC. I'm not sure why they don't. It may have something to do with them being in the age group of older than 40.. maybe they don't have the testosterone pumping that makes them feel like they have to show how big and tough they are. Maybe it comes back to my point about Kickboxing. Who wants to risk a stray cut kick to the knee? When you spend your entire life working with your body you likely become very careful with it.

The teacher I've been talking a lot about tonight was hanging out with one of the best kickboxers in Canada. The kickboxer respected Tai Chi, saw there was something going on and recognized Tai Chi people's skill in throwing people around, but like most didn't see that there was much real fighting stuff going on with Tai Chi. He said something like "it can't stand up in the ring." The Tai Chi guy says ok well let's trade kicks (kickboxers often do this in matches.. trade kicks and wear eachother down like this. Kickboxer kicks the Tai Chi guy first. Round house to the ribs. Ouch, hurts his foot. Tai Chi (well, all internal chinese martail arts really) kicks him in the ankle. Knocks him unconscious. Again, worthless anecdote, I know.

Tai Chi seems it would actually help with Kempo.

Funny to think of Tai Chi as a supplement :smile:



So what art would be best for a beginner and where can I find a legitimate teacher? ie. one that isn't full of shit and actually teaches these aspects of the art effectively.


Hagbardceline, nothing's good for a beginner. You'll just have to jump right in. I think Qi Gong would be a good place to start because you don't need the same quality of teacher as you do with martial arts. It'll get you started, but it might not be fulfilling enough because it's not a martial art, just an introduction to the same principles. As for a teacher.. Where do you live? Maybe someone could reccomend someone... I certainly could if you lived in certain places. Try and find a teacher familiar with Tai Chi, Shing Yi, and Ba Gua. If someone has learned all three even rudimentarily, then he's got a strong interest, and then you could go from there... tap into the community.

Evolving...

that's some good stuff you're talking about. A good point to show the effectiveness of internal chinese martial arts is that the internal styles were always the most popular body guard styles. When the Empress Dowager fled the forbidden city she was escorted by a Ba Gua (pa kua) master. Tai Chi guys were always the emperors body guards until the Ba Gua guys showed up. Wrestlers, grapplers, and external stylists were not preferred body guards for a good reason.

To anyone questioning the usefullness of these styles for fighting, I've had my say and probably won't join in the potentially endless argument anymore. The people are out there, the experience of crossing hands with these people is yours if you want it, I can't give it to you, especially not over the internet, so I won't bother trying. That's one message I hope I got across with this retardedly long post. Another message I want to communicate is this: Chinese Internal Martial arts are not what you think. If you've never trained them seriously with well-rounded instruction (martial applications as well as forms) then you have NO clue what Tai Chi is. Calling it meditation doesn't cut it, calling it a spiritual practice doesn't cut it. These words will do for basic discussion, but they aren't it. And then once you train Tai Chi you'll never stop discovering in more subtle ways that these arts aren't what you thought. That's what I love about this art form. It's totally unique. It's the duck billed platypus of things to do with your life. 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1573928 - 05/24/03 01:15 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I've watched UFC and I've watched the Gracies do their shit. It's a totally ridiculous and impractical way to fight. It works in the ring, but not in real life. In real life the floor is rough concrete, scattered with broken glass and dirty heroin needles.



what happens in a "real fight"? people sit back and let you do your dance routines on their face? no, sorry. real fights end up on the ground, whether you like it or not... its true. brazilian jiu-jitsu is probably the single most effective martial arts out there, i know you want to listen to your 80 year old "tai chi" instructor tell you that it doesn't work in "real fights" but brazilian jiu-jitsu is a competitive sport.. its tried and perfected and mastered, and people go out and COMPETE... not to out dance eachother, but to put a person in a position where they either...
a.) tap and give up
b.) go to the hospital

its that simple man... MMA (mixed martial arts) is a sport that mimicks "real life" fighting in every aspect... two people enter a ring, and FIGHT... what happens next? the best fighter wins. what style is the most dominate in the sport and is practiced by the most people? jiu-jitsu. yes, it is the most effective way at defending yourself. not only in the sport of MMA, but in REAL-LIFE TOO!!!.... how do i know? well, me being a 140 lb dude made a man 200+ almost choke to death... i called on his friends to get him off me before he passed out. it saved my life... this was as "real" as it can be.. yes i was on my back.. and YES IT WAS ON THE STREET!!! i had minor brush-burns on my back, but guess what? the guy did not get one strike or do any damage whatsoever on me. thank you jiu-jitsu.

Kickboxing (muay thai style) is another totally impractical martial art. the application of martial arts is in fighting, and training to fight should be about protecting your body from harm. Well guess what? Bone on bone attacks are seriously harsh. Sure, a cut kick into someone's knee is deadly as can be, but where are the 30 year old kickboxers? Walking with canes. Doesn't protect you from bodily harm if you ask me. In the Thai ghetto it can be worth destroying yourself for a chance at a better life.

another tried and true form of standing self-defense, that has been tried again and again in competitive sports such as k-1 kickboxing and regular kickboxing is impractical?? again... take any MMA athlete and they train on the ground (jiu-jitsu) with a stand-up art... either boxing, muay-thai, or kickboxing... there are NO other forms of stand-up in LEGITIMATE COMPETITION.... i know your ankle kicks sound devastating.. but gee... how come no fighter who makes hundreds of thousands of dollars a fight uses this stuff?? man, must be some mystical chinese curse!!

He thought he'd show his superiority in front of 90 people by attacking the teacher from behind with an elbow into his ribs. He hit him, and then bounced off (that's what a good structure is). I know, these are worthless anecdotes that prove nothing, but I'm not telling them just for you, looner.

lol... i pity the students in your class that can't throw an elbow... an effective stand-up like muay-thai would show you how to use proper technique that would leave your instructor on the ground, writhing in pain!

The Tai Chi guy says ok well let's trade kicks (kickboxers often do this in matches.. trade kicks and wear eachother down like this. Kickboxer kicks the Tai Chi guy first. Round house to the ribs. Ouch, hurts his foot. Tai Chi (well, all internal chinese martail arts really) kicks him in the ankle. Knocks him unconscious. Again, worthless anecdote, I know.

the tai-chi instructor kicked him in the ankle and he PASSED OUT?... lol... please tell me you are joking... seriously!!! it would save yourself the embaressment.. and if you are not joking, please tell me the physiological response that would render a person unconscious from an ankle kick!!


in the world of real-fighting... where people spar... where people go to the ground... where technique is used... the fighting styles i've mentioned are the ones on top. i'm sure there are excuses as to why no "tai chi" expert ever showcases their skill in real competition... maybe its the lack of skill? maybe it would leave them jobless... but as long as people join silly classes like that, and think they are learning a valuable learn of self-defense.... they are really shooting themselves in the foot. if it came time to actually defend themselve, actually punch something other than air... they would get hurt, and badly. i'm saying this as a warning to you, your class may give you the confidence to believe you know how to fight, but in reality, it just isn't effective... which is proven. there is no denying it.








Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1573938 - 05/24/03 01:29 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Jiu jitsu is no joke, especially the Gracie style..as demonstrated by Rickson Gracie who has competed in over 450 no-holds-barred MMA competitions, and is undefeated..that is real world results.

I train in a dojo that teaches Jeet Kune Do, Gracie style Jiu Jitsu, and Pa-Kua... I like to remain well-rounded so I study Tai Chi and Chin Na on the side and train with my friend.

Tai Chi is a flexible art. It can be used for meditation/inner balance, or for martial applications i.e- yang style. Used in this manner it is a very effective defense.


--------------------

Edited by Shroomism (05/24/03 01:37 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1573947 - 05/24/03 01:34 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1573963 - 05/24/03 01:47 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Humorous.. but I can attest to the potency of tai chi in combat situations. However, I believe in incorporating all styles and not limiting myself to any one particular style as to remain flexible, so my Jeet Kune Do training has taught me. As such I use every bit of knowledge I have about martial arts, and use whatever technique is the most efficient for the circumstances. Pa Kua, JKD, Tai Chi and Chin Na have all helped me greatly in sparring, as well as Jiu-Jitsu for ground fighting..it is an invaluable resource.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1573965 - 05/24/03 01:49 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

you are very correct shroomism. cross-training is invaluable... even bruce lee once coming to america stated that he believed a fighter that was cross trained in wrestling and boxing would be one of the toughest fighters in the world. it just so happens this very thing is happening now in the sport of MMA and it is very exciting.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1573974 - 05/24/03 01:52 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Too bad Bruce couldn't have lived to see the UFC... it was exactly what he wanted. He would dominate it if he was alive right now.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1573976 - 05/24/03 01:53 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

LoOnEr, I had lessons with Rorion Gracie when he was still giving them out of his garage in Manhattan Beach (long before the UFC). I agree that their martial art is very effective in ground techniques, but it does not effectively address situations involving multiple attackers. It's true that many 'street' altercations end up on the ground, it's also true that many times when one is victimized that the attackers choose the victim based on weaknesses. The most glaring weakness is being outnumbered. Although the UFC is a good proving ground for one on one techniques it does not effectively test the situation of multiple attackers. When you concentrate on grappling with a single opponent and taking him out, his partner may be shoving a shiv into your ribcage or putting a bullet in your gut.

In short, in real world fighting, people don't spar, there are no rules, there are no fair fights, there are no rings with referee's to stop things when you know you are losing, opponents will take any advantage which they can grab, including getting buddies to help them dominate you or use weapons which their opponents do not have access to. To discount the centuries of accumulated experiences and refinements inherent in the internal arts or the soft arts is an exercise in hubris. Also, NO hand to hand combat art is effective against a firearm at 20 paces. When one studies a martial art, one should realize that technology has provided numerous instances in the real world where these arts are useless for self defense. However there are still great benefits to be gained by their study and practice which go beyond combat aspects.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Evolving]
    #1573993 - 05/24/03 02:07 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah someone can shoot you, and there's not much you can do about it from a distance unless you can dodge bullets.. but the more knowledge and training you have of real combat situations, the more likely you are to survive such situations. Thus reinforcing my philosophy of training multiple arts...JKD and Pa Kua both teach how to handle multiple attackers, knife attacks and such. Though you may be at a disadvantage against multiple attackers with weapons, if you have a comprehensive knowledge of how to defend yourself, you are much better off than someone who doesn't have the first clue of what to do. The first thought should be fight or flight.

In any real combat situation, the more knowledge of martial arts and training you have, then you will generally be better off.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Evolving]
    #1573995 - 05/24/03 02:09 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

multiple attackers is a bad thing. thats why you should avoid any street fight like the plague. its just not worth it... i would run if i had to with my tail between my legs, i have nothing to prove to anyone.

that being said... no martial art addresses multiple attackers effectively... i don't care what style.. there is no way that a person trained in kickboxing, boxing... or anything else would be able to fend off an attack by 5 guys...

RUN!!  :laugh: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1574006 - 05/24/03 02:19 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)


Wasn't JKD created by Bruce Lee?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1574241 - 05/24/03 08:38 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Calling Shaolin Gong Fu an inferior martial arts system is very ridiculous.


The system of fighting is 100% complete as it is, and just because some assclowns step into the UFC and think they know TRUE gong fu, then forget their forms, probably never reallyknew how to fight in the first place - get stomped by some kickboxing guy doesn't mean ANYTHING.


A true shaolin gong fu practitioner, who is not just taught the FORMS, but also taught the exercises, which there are 100s, to make you learn to actually fight - and if you actually practice sparring daily or so - would take down a kickboxing of equal dedicaiton ANYDAY.


Ultimately , who wins is on whos the most intelligent fighter - when it comes down to two people who actually know how to fight.

But believe me, gong fu is a 100% complete fighting system, in which kickboxing, boxing, and other styles of fighting dont compare.



THe average person cannot land a hand on the average gong fu practiioner.

The average gong fu practitioner, who could easily destroy an average person, cannot even lay a hand on a real good gong fu artist.

It's one thing to watch TV and base your assumptions on that - but SOuthpark and UFC and the news cant teach you evreything looner :smile:



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1574348 - 05/24/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

The system of fighting is 100% complete as it is

what do you mean by this? that it is ALL you need to be a perfect fighter? since gong fu is a stand-up art, how would one fair against someone who was trained in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, and boxing? every martial art is 100% complete in its practice for what IT does... but so many styles cover a wide range of fighting possibilites.

just because some assclowns step into the UFC and think they know TRUE gong fu, then forget their forms, probably never reallyknew how to fight in the first place - get stomped by some kickboxing guy doesn't mean ANYTHING.

sorry, but it proves a lot.

- and if you actually practice sparring daily or so - would take down a kickboxing of equal dedicaiton ANYDAY.

but it just doesnt happen? ok, keep taking the word of some 80 year old sensei...lets be real here.

THe average person cannot land a hand on the average gong fu practiioner.

probabaly true... gong fu is a defense system, and its not a bad one. but, compared to other arts out there, it just doesn't rank up as the best.

It's one thing to watch TV and base your assumptions on that - but SOuthpark and UFC and the news cant teach you evreything looner

ahhh, but you are assuming i watch ufc once in a while to gain my knowledge. which is true, but i also study, research, practice, and a HUGE fan of the martial arts world, in fact, i'm a competitor.. i have training in wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, and boxing, but alas... i guess i know nothing :smile: 

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574527 - 05/24/03 12:40 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Let me remind you all that gong fu or kung fu doesn't refer to any style of martial art. If someone entered a tournament calling their style "kung fu" that means that that person is very ignorant and doesn't know what they're doing.

that has been tried again and again in competitive sports such as k-1 kickboxing and regular kickboxing is impractical?

My point was that if you cripple yourself with bone on bone attacks then the martial art hasn't succeeded in protecting your body from harm. K-1? Don't they wear gloves? No grabbing right? And I remember in the first one Pierre Guenette was in it. He used to teach me French classes in grade eight. He knows nothing about crossing hands, and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament. But then I'm not going to get into this argument am I?

Like I said the experience of fighting internal martial artists is out there if you want it. Go get it, cause I can't convince you a kick to the ankle could knock you unconscious. You'll just have to feel it yourself. This is a case where there's a lot more going on than you can see. If I showed you the move (called wind sweeps the cobblestones) you'd just see me kicking the dust up off the ground. Structure.

Some cool anecdotes:

in the 20s the Tai Chi guys decided to get together in Beijing and figure out who had the best Tai Chi skills. (I don't know how to spell the names and I may even have this one wrong) Chen Chow Won goes to the meeting expecting to clean up and establish his lineage as the dominant style of Tai Chi, but when he gets there he sees there are lots of other highly skilled people and he's not sure if he can win matches against all of them, so he goes and gets his dad (or was it his grandpa? No, dad I'm pretty sure). Chen Fa ke, his dad, shows up and beats everybody in a few seconds per match. There's no doubt, he's the best, and they present him with a plaque saying he's the best and they all recognize him as Mr. Tai Chi or whatever. He puts the plaque under his bed and never puts it on display in his school.

Back in the Chen family village (These guys practice Chen style Tai Chi of course) a local fellow was being a rude jerk, so Chen Fa Ke touched his elbows and slammed him against the ceiling. Ouch. One day the undisputed wrestling champion came to the school to cross hands with Chen Fa Ke. There was a class being taught by one of the senior students at the time. Chen and the wrestler were off in another part of the room. Just as one of the students asked a question Chen and the Wrestler started laughing and then they walked away.

The next day the wrestler showed up at the door delivering all kinds of gifts to Chen Fa Ke. The senior student opened the door and was like "what's this about?" The wrestler says "Oh, your master didn't tell you he beat me?" "No, I didn't even know you guys matched." The wrestler says "oh, your teacher is so gracious and modest blah blah blah"

Here's what happened: Chen said "I'm very interested in wrestling! When you open the match you attack eachother like this right?" He goes in and grabs the wrestler around the biceps. The wrestler grabs Chen around the biceps in that wrestling position you always see. Immediately the two start laughing and step apart. The wrestler lost his feet completely. They touched and he couldn't move his feet. He was totally locked to the ground and couldn't move.

These stories have come through the lineage to me. Cool stuff, but just worthless anecdotes only Tai Chi guys wouldn't scoff at.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1574592 - 05/24/03 01:31 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

My point was that if you cripple yourself with bone on bone attacks then the martial art hasn't succeeded in protecting your body from harm. K-1? Don't they wear gloves? No grabbing right? And I remember in the first one Pierre Guenette was in it. He used to teach me French classes in grade eight. He knows nothing about crossing hands, and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament. But then I'm not going to get into this argument am I?

k-1 is the number 1 sport in japan, and its fun as hell to watch... the knockout rate is 80%...you wear gloves... smaller than boxing gloves, but no foot protection. you can use knees, clinching, and sometimes elbows. it is set-up to allow all kinds of martial arts to compete.... kickboxing, muay-thai, kempo-karate, kyokushin... etc.

and he doesn't say much for the calibre of fighter in that tournament

the calibre of fighters in k-1 is simple... they are the best stand-up fighters in the world. period.

here is a link, i suggest you download some videos or watch espn2.. sometimes they have it.

http://www.k-1usa.net

try finding a video of jerome lebanner... he is the scariest man i'd ever want to face in the ring... some believe he is the culimination of hundreds of years of french bitterness :smile:
   

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574629 - 05/24/03 02:03 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I meant shaolin gong fu is 100% complete fighting system, as it can be used ALL AROUND for self-defense, street fighting, professional, practice sparring, etc.

The same cannot be said for boxing, hell I wouldnt say the same for karate, and many other fighting systems like wrestling. They lack too much to be considered COMPLETE packages.


The forms of shaolin gong fu are complete in that they are so detailed, so intricate, and so well-designed over the past 5,000 years that no fighting system compares.

Are you telling me that someone who TRULY knows how to fight, and applies this knowledge after learning the 5 basic animal forms (Dragon, Snake, Crane, Tiger, and Panther) that any kickboxer would even compare?


Like I said, UFC shows absolutely nothing. It's good to watch UFC to laugh at people trying to fight, but in reality almost ANYONE you see on UFC can't fight for shit. They all use sloppy forms, and quickly forget their forms too.


Im taking about someone who really knows what they are doing, so lets not bring UFC up anymore.


I've seen shaolin gong fu practioners who none of the UFC "fighters" would be able to lay a hand on....and thats not a lie. No, they arent 80 year old monks, more around the age of 30-35.


I suggest if you research martial arts, you look more strongly into shaolin gong fu.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1574637 - 05/24/03 02:10 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

your lack of knowledge has shown through in this post, it isn't even worth a reply... i have to admit though, you gave me a good belly laugh with this...

Are you telling me that someone who TRULY knows how to fight, and applies this knowledge after learning the 5 basic animal forms (Dragon, Snake, Crane, Tiger, and Panther) that any kickboxer would even compare?

and this

Like I said, UFC shows absolutely nothing. It's good to watch UFC to laugh at people trying to fight, but in reality almost ANYONE you see on UFC can't fight for shit. They all use sloppy forms, and quickly forget their forms too.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1574739 - 05/24/03 03:10 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I wouldn't bother with this argument boys

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1574965 - 05/24/03 05:49 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


Wasn't JKD created by Bruce Lee?




Yes it was.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1574967 - 05/24/03 05:53 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

yang rises on the left dwood

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinespiritshaper
^_^

Registered: 03/20/03
Posts: 216
Loc: Lost in Space
Last seen: 8 years, 7 days
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1574990 - 05/24/03 06:06 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

you guys should check out www.sherdog.com , they've got a bunch of pimp videos there to download and it's all free and whatnot. it's one of my favorite fighting websites and i'd reccomend it to anyone who's interested in any professional fighting or martial arts.

have fun with your argument =)

laterz


--------------------
----------------------------------

Brilliant ideas, like truffles, are rare, and only possible, given special conditions.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleShroomismM
Space Travellin
Male User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1575014 - 05/24/03 06:20 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Looks to be rising to the left to me...
That's the JKD symbol anyway


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Shroomism]
    #1575020 - 05/24/03 06:22 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

well I guess the colour scheme disrupts the whole thing, I see an arrow rising on the left, but not the little sperm thingy.

It's a minor point, lots of people don't really care what way they draw the whole diagram, but word on the street is yang rises on the left in the human body and so having it any other way, although still communicating the whole principle misses out on a small hidden meaning in the whole thing.

Edited by Dogomush (05/24/03 06:24 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 16 years, 10 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1575198 - 05/24/03 08:16 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)


How can you tell which is which?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 4 months
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Murex]
    #1575455 - 05/24/03 10:56 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Yang is white yin is black. Yang rises on the right, yin descends on the left. think black T-shirts absorb the heat, which is very yin. White T-shirts.. well, they reflect the light which is sorta yang.

The thing about yin and yang is that... the white T-shirt is yang in that it shines this light into me.. that's yang in relationship to its surroundings, but if you were to match up the T-shirt vs the sun then in that relationship then all t-shirts no matter what colour would be yin, because they recieve the energy of the sun no matter what colour. The moon is yin, because it absorbs the sunlight just like a white t-shirt, but then it's kinda yang too because it shines the light down on us and we recieve it.

Also, the black t-shirt, although being yin because it absorbs so much sun becomes yang when it radiates the heat when you touch it. Black plastic will burn your feet, which is yang but the overall absorption of the sun is a very yin characteristic. This is why there are the little eyeballs of the other colour within the spermy things in the Tai Chi diagram (note that most people call it "the yin yang" but yin and yang are just the component parts of it. When they come together in perfect balance that's called the Tai Chi (supreme ultimate state of being) throw the Chuan onto that and you've got the martial art Tai Chi Chuan which means supreme ultimate fist (or fighting style)). Ah yin and yang theory.. so much fun. So endless. It basically states that everything exists in a relationship to everything else. Everything is relative. Because of this everything is totally dynamic and not ever quite what you think. A black t-shirt is yin then yang then yin then yang.

And so what about when that black piece of plastic gets really hot and you touch it and get burned? Well that's Chi. Chi is the product of the relationship between yin and yang. When I look at you and say something and you listen I'm yang (expressing the idea outward) you are yin (recieving the idea). The conversation is the Chi. We'll call it "conversation chi."

It's funny that people feel the urge to refer to chi as this enigmatic life force. There's no reason to get flakey on it. I use my mind to control my limbs. My mind is Sheng my body is Jing, which are yang and yin respectively and this thing called life which is born of the interaction between these two parts of myself is called chi. We'll call it "human chi."

In our culture people see yin and yang and immediately think good and evil. Good with a little evil spot in it and evil with a little good spot in it. This comes from our twisted Christian heritage. Yin and Yang theory is an excellent paradigm with which to navigate our universe, and I'd like to see more people get over good and evil and trip out on the real shit.

So.. how about that eh? Yin and yang and the product of their interaction whatever that might be is called chi. Chi is everywhere. You could call it "energy." Why, you could even get all flakey and say stuff like "woah I'm experiencing negative energy from that guy." Lots of people get hung up on energy as this mystical magical force but dwood it's everywhere. Anywhere a relationship occurs between two things whatever they are.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: Dogomush]
    #1576237 - 05/25/03 11:38 AM (21 years, 1 month ago)

Im not even going to argue with you looner.

Your lack of knowledge has proven you probably have never seen a shaolin monk in action, or even a true american shaolin gong fu practitioner. I tested your knowledge and made you feel insecure, so you resulted in saying I'm not knowledable in other threads. That my friend is low.


I know my martial arts, my gong fu, what do you know? Kickboxing?

Again, do not answer this, I already know the answer.




Fighting sytle doesn't play a HUGE role when the fighter is intelligent, almost any fighting style can be used. However, shaolin gong fu has the advantage over most because of its intense training, TONS of forms which you can learn all kinds of punches, kicks, grabs....not to mention the chin nas, wing chun that come with it.


It becomes built into your subconsious, and you become a fighting machine....its important to keep your own creativity and intellect however. This creates the ultimate fighter.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1576363 - 05/25/03 01:19 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

I know my martial arts, my gong fu, what do you know? Kickboxing?

i told you i've wrestled in competition for 12 years of my life, i took two years of jiu-jitsu and judo, and i have limited knowledge in boxing... i've also trained in submission wrestling.

now let me ask you this, if i wanted to take you down usiing my wrestling skills, what could you do? nothing. once you are on the ground, what could you do? nothing. don't tell me you have a way to defend my takedown when i've practiced live for 2 hours a day for 12 years, and competed against the best in the state.


Fighting sytle doesn't play a HUGE role when the fighter is intelligent, almost any fighting style can be used. However, shaolin gong fu has the advantage over most because of its intense training, TONS of forms which you can learn all kinds of punches, kicks, grabs....not to mention the chin nas, wing chun that come with it.

TONs of forms, punches, kicks??... you only need 3 punches, hook, jab, uppercut.. thats it.

It becomes built into your subconsious, and you become a fighting machine....its important to keep your own creativity and intellect however. This creates the ultimate fighter.

the fact that you said UFC does not mean shit...shows your ignorance... seriously. people are paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to compete and win. they train all day, everyday. its a full-time job... and the sport has evolved to where champion kickboxers have black belts in jiu-jitsu, sambo, and are national wrestling champions. there is a show in japan called "pride"... it is the 2nd largest sport in their country... go buy a dvd of it and see the huge crowds that come out to watch the WORLDS BEST martial artists... and who competes in them? boxers, kickboxers, jiu-jitsu, muay-thai, wrestling... etc... PROVEN ARTS... and the atheletes there are the top in the world... but again you say that doesn't mean shit?? what proof can you use to back it up? seriously?? just because of what your instructor says? do you even compete going live? these guys train and spar and wrestle... all day long...

now here are some websites dedicated to people like who you believe your "gong fu" is effective.. there are even video clips of these people fighting MMA fighers... take a look for yourself.

www.sherdog.com
www.bullshido.com



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibletekramrepus
Female User Gallery
Registered: 02/20/02
Posts: 2,253
Re: Tai Chi Chuan~ Qi Gong ~ Gong Fu [Re: ]
    #1577196 - 05/25/03 09:48 PM (21 years, 1 month ago)

There is a difference between real life fighting, and organized fighting. Shaolin gong fu was originally not meant for sport, and is stil traditionally not meant for sport. In was developed as a REAL self-defense fighting system. They needed it, to be honest.


UFC is crap, I don't care how much they get paid to fight. I have rarely seen fighters in UFC keep their true stances and use actual forms (from my limited knowledge, of course). Instead...I see them start out with nice looking forms, and as soon as they get hit or lose control, they start to forget that they know a fighting system and start punching like crazy. This is not the trait of a decent fighter.


Anyways, I don't wish for a heated argument, everyone has their own opinions - yours is from what you've witnessed and observed throughout your life, vice versa.


Just to be fair however, you should not dismiss the fighting system of gong fu as inferior to any other fighting system, and I should not do that either. The fighter is ultimately the one who won the fight, not his style. The style is just the bridge to victory.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3  [ show all ]

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Tai Chi Spooge 1,595 18 07/13/04 02:47 PM
by Swami
* Qi Gong Practice
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Huehuecoyotl 9,170 154 06/10/08 12:31 PM
by coulterIV
* Qi Gong practioner fails JREF Challenge OrgoneConclusion 715 6 07/17/14 08:01 PM
by falcon
* Qi Gong/Abdominal Breathing Shogun 976 5 12/18/01 01:49 AM
by Traveller
* Wu style tai chi philosophy! sunshine 301 11 08/31/18 12:26 AM
by yeah
* I am still poor with tai chi sunshine 270 8 08/05/18 10:49 PM
by BrendanFlock
* Tai Chi Syle 799 8 12/16/06 07:34 AM
by leery11
* Awesome Qi Gong Info Huehuecoyotl 556 4 09/02/08 09:30 AM
by Icelander

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,433 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 16 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.038 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 12 queries.