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Invisibleteknix
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Running pressure cooker off the grid.
    #15597659 - 12/31/11 03:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)


120 Volt, 50/60 Hz 1650 Watts/13.75 Amps

My question is if you need a pure sine wave inverter to run this?

Has anyone modified a UPS or other back-up system as an inverter by increasing the battery bank and or using Solar Panels/charge controller?

I have some hair-brained scheme to run this and some LED completely off-grid.

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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15604397 - 01/02/12 08:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

why would you need a sine-wave generator?

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15604546 - 01/02/12 09:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It depends on how the regulator electronics actually work, but I bet they are extremely simple and straightforward and they'll work off a square wave just as well as off a nice sine wave.

The only thing you'd have to work out in terms of feasibility is the total amount of power you need for your purpose. You'd have to do a test run (or a couple) to work out how many kWh you're actually using and if it's feasible to supply that by the means you have in mind. This also depends a lot on how well you insulate the PC, so you may want to modify it a bit by adding some rockwool or something.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15604812 - 01/02/12 10:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Id rather just get a regular pressure cooker and heat it up with a gas stove.  :shrug:

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OfflineTHIHT


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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15606900 - 01/02/12 06:36 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

or gas/diesel generator


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: THIHT]
    #15619163 - 01/05/12 07:53 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Nah, solar panels are reusable for energy unlike the dollars you burn only once.

If get this set-up right it will pay for itself in around 5 years and then only profit from there, if you want to look at it from an investing standpoint.

If you want to look at it from an environmental standpoint or political standpoint, it also helps the environment and our long term sustainability.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619245 - 01/05/12 08:33 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Would you guys say that any ups putting out 1650+ watts would most probably have a 48v bank?

Diesel generator is on the plan shee as well, but for converting UVO to energy, I want that to power itself as a sort of refinery. I haven't been able to find much info on the modifications tho. I'm not sure how well those home generators will run on cleaned up UVO.

I know it needs to be preheated and strained down for car diesels, but I'm not smart enough to figure out how to turn a big ass diesel engine into a generator yet.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619267 - 01/05/12 08:41 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Could you wire 4 alternators in series to produce 48v?

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619280 - 01/05/12 08:47 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Have you measured the amount of power you need yet? Otherwise the whole debate is moot. You need to figure out how many kWh you need.

Quote:

teknix said:
Could you wire 4 alternators in series to produce 48v?



No. Use a transformer.

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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15619442 - 01/05/12 09:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

why would a ups have a 48 volt bank? They are usually used for computer back-up power and no computer has a 48 volt input. Would you say that most cars have a propeller for running in the water? no, because most cars don't run it the water.
    The stereo-clave in the OP says 1650 watts[(120v x 13.75 amps)=1.65kwh/per hour] thats a lot of power. To power it off of batteries, you would need 137 amps(@12 volts)worth, or pretty much 2 car batteries, and a big inverter.
    There's no doubt in my mind that the easiest way to make this work is a pressure cooker over a fire, and skip everything you are talking about.
    You would have to have a deisel generator with direct injection, unless you plan to blend your oil with kerosine or something.
    Reminds me of this idea a guy had a long time ago....the titanic

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15619556 - 01/05/12 10:36 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You suggest I run DC directly to the cooker? Yes there are 48 volt UPS I have seen on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=48v+UPS&oq=48v+UPS&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=6187l8244l0l8484l7l7l0l2l0l0l273l1012l0.2.3l5l0

Thanks for your opinion, I have the option to use a stove for an alternative.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619560 - 01/05/12 10:37 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

48v means I will pull less amps then from 12v.

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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619600 - 01/05/12 10:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
48v means I will pull less amps then from 12v.



yea, 25% the amps, but the thing wants 120 volts. No converter is 100% efficient, so 120 volts is what you need, anything else will take a converter and there-by you are losing power:shrug:
    I seriuosly doubt you can run it on dc. Why don't you burn the oil in a burner, to heat a P/C? Thats seems like the easiest/most efficient way.
    If something says,"120v 13.75 amps A/C" you should prob. run it with 120v A/C

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619863 - 01/05/12 12:05 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SomeGuy said:
why would a ups have a 48 volt bank? They are usually used for computer back-up power and no computer has a 48 volt input.



Every UPS has DC batteries (obviously) and an inverter to make 115/230AC out of that on the output. You could use the batteries from a UPS and charge them from whatever source you want and then use the DC directly from the batteries. I don't see how this is relevant to the autoclave that's being discussed though; teknix, what do you need 48Vdc for? And if you really need it, why don't you just buy a bank of 8 rechargeable 6V cells? The batteries in a UPS can be bought separately.

Quote:

The stereo-clave in the OP says 1650 watts[(120v x 13.75 amps)=1.65kwh/per hour] thats a lot of power.



But it probably won't pull 1.65kW all of the time. It'll heat up to the desired temperature, and then intermittently switch on the power to maintain that temperature. That's why I asked if teknix is aware of the exact power needs, which can easily be established using a regular power use meter. Without that information, this whole discussion is basically senseless.

Quote:

There's no doubt in my mind that the easiest way to make this work is a pressure cooker over a fire, and skip everything you are talking about.



Yes. Or simply plug it into the wall socket as it's intended to do. Or use a solar water heating system and use the hot water to pasteurize substrate (sterilizing will be a bit more challenging this way).

Quote:

teknix said:
48v means I will pull less amps then from 12v.



You'll still need the same amount of power though. You can choose if you want to supply that with a high voltage and low current, or a low voltage at a high current, but the power requirement remains the same.

My question still stands: how much power will actually be needed?

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15619948 - 01/05/12 12:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Nah, solar panels are reusable for energy unlike the dollars you burn only once.

If get this set-up right it will pay for itself in around 5 years and then only profit from there, if you want to look at it from an investing standpoint.

If you want to look at it from an environmental standpoint or political standpoint, it also helps the environment and our long term sustainability.




No, I dont think so.  Using batteries and solar panels to heat a pressure cooker will not pay for itself and is not environmentally friendly or sustainable.  Using wood or gas to heat is the cheapest and most environmentally sound way to do it.

Like koraks has been mentioning you are going to need a lot of energy.  Water has a huge specific heat value.  Doing some rough mental calculations (with a specific heat of 4), assuming that you want to heat up 20 liters of water 100 degrees over room temperature you will need about 10 million joules.  This would completly use up at least two 4 million joule car batteries, you would probably need three.

Edited by DieCommie (01/05/12 12:29 PM)

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15620098 - 01/05/12 01:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:

The stereo-clave in the OP says 1650 watts[(120v x 13.75 amps)=1.65kwh/per hour] thats a lot of power.



But it probably won't pull 1.65kW all of the time. It'll heat up to the desired temperature, and then intermittently switch on the power to maintain that temperature. That's why I asked if teknix is aware of the exact power needs, which can easily be established using a regular power use meter. Without that information, this whole discussion is basically senseless.

Quote:

teknix said:
48v means I will pull less amps then from 12v.




You'll still need the same amount of power though. You can choose if you want to supply that with a high voltage and low current, or a low voltage at a high current, but the power requirement remains the same.

My question still stands: how much power will actually be needed?




The panels I'm looking at are only designed to run at 15 amps max, and each panel is 7.45, so I will only be able to get to 15 amps in series, and the rest will have to be parallel. I figure the charge controller would be more efficient putting 48v to 48v at only 15 amps then trying to shove 48v down a 12v battery.

I don't want to go less than 24 volt, because I will need to many amps to get the watts I need. The pressure cooker would be the heaviest appliance run off the batteries, so if I can get enough to run that for a sterilization cycle I feel like it should be golden. I will have the max output I will need. I guess I just don't want to have to pull over 120 amps out of the battery bank at a time which would be required with a 12v supply. I am pretty new at all this so any advice or critiquing of my understanding is appreciated.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15620147 - 01/05/12 01:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

48v charge controller is prob the best I can afford.
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

teknix said:
Nah, solar panels are reusable for energy unlike the dollars you burn only once.

If get this set-up right it will pay for itself in around 5 years and then only profit from there, if you want to look at it from an investing standpoint.

If you want to look at it from an environmental standpoint or political standpoint, it also helps the environment and our long term sustainability.




No, I dont think so.  Using batteries and solar panels to heat a pressure cooker will not pay for itself and is not environmentally friendly or sustainable.  Using wood or gas to heat is the cheapest and most environmentally sound way to do it.





What are you talking about here? I don't care to burn tree's and how is that more environmentally friendly? Is it more environmentally friendly because of the batteries required? If that's the case then I'll just pump it into the grid and use the battery's for back-up.

Are you factoring the loss in reduction from the tree's conversion of co2, as well as the carbon released in burning, the manual labor of chopping and carrying, hauling etc?

What expression concludes that?

Edited by teknix (01/05/12 01:23 PM)

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15620184 - 01/05/12 01:26 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I agree with everything DieCommie and koraks are telling you... the electrical route is going to be difficult and expensive.  If you are determined to go electrical/solar...

You are going to need a bank of deep cycle lead acid batteries.  These look like car batteries, but are designed to be deep cycled.  Check out something like the Surrette CS-25-PS.  Yes, sticker shock, I know.  You will also need a good power inverter.  I'd go for something like the Solar PI20000X 2000 Watt inverter.  It can supply 2000 watts continuous and can supply 4000 watts peak surge.  That should cover your initial power on spike.  Finally, you are going to want a maximum power point tracker to sit between your batterie(s) and your solar panel(s).  The wiring will be pressure cooker attached to inverter attached to batteries attached to maximum power point tracker attached to solar panels.  For the $2000 to $3000 that this will run, you could buy a whole lot of propane to power a burner instead.

(Note, the batteries that I mention are 8V batteries which are meant to be used in triplets to create a 24V system.  The inverter I mention is a 12V inverter.  You would really want a 24V inverter, such as the Tripp Lite PV2000FC 2000 Watt High Surge PowerVerter Plus.)

If I were doing this, I would go for a solar water heater.  You can make one cheap and they are very effective.  You will be able to maintain pasteurizing temperatures easily.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: Seuss]
    #15620218 - 01/05/12 01:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Yeah, I'm going deep cycle gel cells, and thinking on the 48vmax xantrex, but no mppt at 1st, then get the outback later. then the xantrex can play diver load or load controller, or should I skip that and just get the outback? I'm not just going to afford everything at once, I am going to build up.

What I currently have is only 2 panels, a 250w grid tied inverter, multimeter and Kill A Watt to play around with until I am more confident and get shit figutred out.(5-6year return) Prob have about $1200 left to spend on panels and whatnot, until I get more funds.

I know I'm prob not going to hit my goal this run, but I want to have a decent foundation.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15620232 - 01/05/12 01:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Burning wood is more environmentally friendly because it is completely renewable and does't have the pollution footprint that manufacturing batteries and solar cells has.  I use wood to heat my house, its cheaper and better than other forms of energy for certain purposes.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15620233 - 01/05/12 01:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

We pay around .22 for a kilowatt hour around here. What about you? It seems like our price is high compared to some.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: DieCommie]
    #15620264 - 01/05/12 01:43 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Burning wood is more environmentally friendly because it is completely renewable and does't have the pollution footprint that manufacturing batteries and solar cells has.  I use wood to heat my house, its cheaper and better than other forms of energy for certain purposes.




No offense, but I'm not taking your word for it. I hate chopping wood in the winter. I have done the same thing, and yes it is cheaper I know, but I am not sure about the footprints. I'm not using wood or electricity to heat a house in the winter in this case. It seems like the electricity has more utility than firewood as well.

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Invisiblekoraks
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15620294 - 01/05/12 01:53 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Quote:

I am not sure about the footprints.



It depends a bit on what wood you use - particularly how the forest/plantation it comes from is managed. But it is _very_ renewable. Burn a tree, plant a new one. It's very simple, basically, and involves much less energy-demanding and potentially polluting production processes than any electrical solution.

Quote:

It seems like the electricity has more utility than firewood as well.



Definitely. But then again, a hammer is a versatile tool, but you still don't use it to drive a screw into a piece of board. It's technically possible, but cumbersome. What I tried to point out earlier was that if you want a sustainable and cost-effective solution, the it pays to tailor your energy sources to the applications you use. Since the applications we're talking about here revolves around heating and heating is one of the things that you can in general do more efficiently than with electricity, electricity seems a bit of an illogical choice for your pressure cooker. The easiest would be to use natural gas, which is very clean as well, but you'll probably argue that it's not renewable. An effective wood stove and a very simple, basic pressure cooker would be a cost-effective, efficient and renewable way to sterilize shit. Plus, you can use it for cooking and heating as well. If I had the chance in the house I live in, I would have installed a wood stove.

Concerning the chopping: exercise is good for you :wink: Btw, the beauty about using wood for heating is that it provides you with warmth several times: when cutting down the tree, when hauling the wood around, when chopping the wood, and finally when burning it :laugh:

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15620340 - 01/05/12 02:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I do understand what you guys are saying heat is a better heat source then electricity due to thermodynamics.

Yet the purpose of the system will need to be able to handle the pressure cooker for max load. It will be the only thing being powered for heat and only occasionally. aThe rest of the time the energy will charge batteries, put power into the grid, and power some led occasionally.

Then I am not only paying out money to burn, but paying out money to sustain.

I bet if you counted the diseases and bugs that are transferred around from firewood that contaminates other tree's and the damage it causes, the carbon footprint of solar panels would be less. Also considering you are saving a tree by not having to burn it.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15623390 - 01/06/12 12:39 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I knew a rich hippy chick that tried to grow weed with lights powered by solar.

She never did get it through her head why we would roll our eyes at her.



If your worried about the toll burning wood has on the environment.  look into what it take to produce Solar cells, batteries and electrical equipment.  It is very wastfull.  Not to mention recycled batteries are sent to 3rd world countries where people without training dismantle them.

Seriously KISS


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: THIHT]
    #15624318 - 01/06/12 09:04 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well. I figure I'm going to have solar panels regardless, so I might as well get the most utility from it. I'm not asking anyone else for anything other than technical advice/evidence that people actually know, rather than what they think or their unsubstantiated claims. I don't give a shit about your opinions as to why it is not a good thing, without proof. If you don't have any technical electrical knowledge to add to this thread then don't post.

If you want to produce actual evidence of the carbon footprints, feel free.

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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix] * 1
    #15624381 - 01/06/12 09:20 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

:picard: /hide thread

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15624705 - 01/06/12 10:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The Carbon Footprint of Solar Panels

SAN FRANCISCO -- How long does it take to eliminate the carbon footprint of a solar panel; i.e., offset the carbon generated producing the panel with the clean energy coming from the panel itself?

About four years, according to Peter Owen, president of Linde Electronics, during a break at Intersolar U.S. taking place this week in San Francisco. Linde, like other equipment manufacturers such as Sixtron Advanced Materials, is increasingly touting the sustainability of its products. Factory equipment is being tailored so that more chemicals inserted into vacuum chambers gets used or can be more easily recycled.

Linde, for instance, is promoting a system for cleaning chemical vapor deposition chambers with fluorine rather than the more traditional nitrogen trifluoride. NF3 is one of the more dangerous greenhouse gases and enough of it leaks out of industrial plants to make it a problem.

Switching to fluorine can cut the carbon footprint down to two years. The industry's goal is to get it to a year.

Fluorine cleaning systems have been used for years in the flat panel TV industry but only recently have been promoted for solar panels. Why? Florine can be used with thin films, and the volumes are only beginning.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/the-carbon-footprint-of-solar-panels/

It is easy, quit spreading misinformation.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15624712 - 01/06/12 10:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Burning a piece of wood will never off set any carbon, think about it more deeply please.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15624750 - 01/06/12 10:36 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

A carbon footprint has historically been defined as "the total set of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions caused by an organization, event, product or person.".[1] However, calculating a carbon footprint which conforms to this definition is often impracticable due to the large amount of data required, which is often time consuming to obtain. A more practicable definition has been suggested, which is gaining acceptance within the field:

"A measure of the total amount of carbon dioxide (CO2) and methane (CH4) emissions of a defined population, system or activity, considering all relevant sources, sinks and storage within the spatial and temporal boundary of the population, system or activity of interest. Calculated as carbon dioxide equivalent (CO2e) using the relevant 100-year global warming potential (GWP100)."[2]

Greenhouse gases can be emitted through transport, land clearance, and the production and consumption of food, fuels, manufactured goods, materials, wood, roads, buildings, and services.[3] For simplicity of reporting, it is often expressed in terms of the amount of carbon dioxide, or its equivalent of other GHGs, emitted.
//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_footprint[/url]
The mitigation of carbon footprints through the development of alternative projects, such as solar or wind energy or reforestation, represents one way of reducing a carbon footprint and is often known as Carbon offsetting.

The main influences on carbon footprints include population, economic output, and energy and carbon intensity of the economy.[5] These factors are the main targets of individuals and businesses in order to decrease carbon footprints. Scholars suggest the most effective way to decrease a carbon footprint is to either decrease the amount of energy needed for production or to decrease the dependence on carbon emitting fuels.[5]

The concept name of the carbon footprint originates from ecological footprint discussion.[4] The carbon footprint is a subset of the ecological footprint and of the more comprehensive Life Cycle Assessment (LCA).

An individual's, nation's, or organisations carbon footprint can be measured by undertaking a GHG emissions assessment. Once the size of a carbon footprint is known, a strategy can be devised to reduce it, e.g. by technological developments, better process and product management, changed Green Public or Private Procurement (GPP), carbon capture, consumption strategies, and others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_footprint

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15628470 - 01/07/12 01:08 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Teknix you're confusing the hell out of us.  The post title says off the grid, but then you repeatedly talk about grid-tying your system.  You need to get this straight if you want to be taken seriously; off-grid and grid-tie systems are very different.


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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: moeshroom]
    #15628994 - 01/07/12 07:39 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

It will eventually be both (grid tied with batter back-up). I don't need help with the grid tied atm.

Just trying to figure out the size of the battery bank, or if UPS would be cheaper to modify that buying an inverter separately.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15630066 - 01/07/12 01:18 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Would these work? How many would I need if so?



http://www.amazon.com/UTX7A-BS-YTX7A-BS-Scooter-Maintenance-GEL/dp/B0051V7AXS

Or would it be more economical and friendly to just buy a big ass 225 and 12v inverter.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15631279 - 01/07/12 06:06 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Well, 12V/7AH should produce around 84 watts for 1 hour... though I suspect they are using the 100hr discharge curve, thus your actual output will be much, much less.  I would estimate around 50wh to be safe.  If you plan to run your pressure cooker for one hour, you would need around 32 batteries... rough estimate (assuming the PC draws full load for the entire hour, which it probably wont).  I would look at the discharge curves of the batteries to be certain.  On a 1hr discharge curve, they probably don't even get 50wh.  Personally, I would go with something made for large loads and deep discharge cycles. You will also need a 12v/1600W (or better) inverter.

> or if UPS would be cheaper to modify that buying an inverter separately.

It is going to be expensive to buy a UPS that is rated for the load you're wanting to draw.


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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: Seuss]
    #15633540 - 01/08/12 04:53 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
If you plan to run your pressure cooker for one hour, you would need around 32 batteries... rough estimate (assuming the PC draws full load for the entire hour, which it probably wont). 



Exactly. And this is the last time I'm going to make this point: WE STILL DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ENERGY (Wh, joules) IS NEEDED FOR THIS APPLICATION. Teknix, could perform the measurement? You have the necessary tools, iirc from one of your posts (found it; you mentioned you have a Kill A Watt - use it). Until you make the measurement, IT MAKES NO SENSE ASKING FOR ADVICE ON BATTERIES. We simply don't know what sort of capacity you would need for this. Sorry for the caps, but I've mentioned this issue several times and you still haven't gone into it.

Once you've worked out how much power you actually need for one sterilization run in your pressure cooker, then double that amount of power and select that as the total amount of battery capacity that you need (you don't want to completely discharge your batteries; only go down to about 50% to lengthen the lifespan of your batteries; yes, even with deep cycle batteries). Also keep a close eye on the load current; you're probably better off with many small, paralleled batteries than with a smaller number (but larger capacity) batteries. Again, it's a lifetime issue. Your pressure cooker will draw a high peak current as it heats up, and that is a significant threat to the lifetime of your batteries. Btw, if you create a bank of batteries, make sure they are all identical to prevent asymmetric power draw, which will quickly blow up the 'weakest links' in your battery chain.

Btw, there's another thing that I'm also missing in this thread - you'll need an appropriate charge controller to protect your batteries from overcharging. That is in addition to the inverter that's been mentioned several times in this thread, but that's obvious.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15634185 - 01/08/12 09:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
Quote:

Seuss said:
If you plan to run your pressure cooker for one hour, you would need around 32 batteries... rough estimate (assuming the PC draws full load for the entire hour, which it probably wont). 



Exactly. And this is the last time I'm going to make this point: WE STILL DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH ENERGY (Wh, joules) IS NEEDED FOR THIS APPLICATION. Teknix, could perform the measurement? You have the necessary tools, iirc from one of your posts (found it; you mentioned you have a Kill A Watt - use it). Until you make the measurement, IT MAKES NO SENSE ASKING FOR ADVICE ON BATTERIES. We simply don't know what sort of capacity you would need for this. Sorry for the caps, but I've mentioned this issue several times and you still haven't gone into it.

Once you've worked out how much power you actually need for one sterilization run in your pressure cooker, then double that amount of power and select that as the total amount of battery capacity that you need (you don't want to completely discharge your batteries; only go down to about 50% to lengthen the lifespan of your batteries; yes, even with deep cycle batteries). Also keep a close eye on the load current; you're probably better off with many small, paralleled batteries than with a smaller number (but larger capacity) batteries. Again, it's a lifetime issue. Your pressure cooker will draw a high peak current as it heats up, and that is a significant threat to the lifetime of your batteries. Btw, if you create a bank of batteries, make sure they are all identical to prevent asymmetric power draw, which will quickly blow up the 'weakest links' in your battery chain.

Btw, there's another thing that I'm also missing in this thread - you'll need an appropriate charge controller to protect your batteries from overcharging. That is in addition to the inverter that's been mentioned several times in this thread, but that's obvious.




Yeah I'm going with Outback 60 amp MPPT and some Tojan Deep Cycle Gel Cel batteries. Thanks for teh help. I'm wondering if you would be able to make an educated guess as to the maximum capacity the batteries would need to be to run only the application presented? No, I do not have the measurement of the sterilizer, I don't even have that yet.

I am planning to build a system and continue to upgrade to get to that point, so I'm figuring out what to invest in at 1st, that I can later upgrade.

Edited by teknix (01/08/12 10:08 AM)

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: Seuss]
    #15634316 - 01/08/12 10:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Well, 12V/7AH should produce around 84 watts for 1 hour... though I suspect they are using the 100hr discharge curve, thus your actual output will be much, much less.  I would estimate around 50wh to be safe.  If you plan to run your pressure cooker for one hour, you would need around 32 batteries... rough estimate (assuming the PC draws full load for the entire hour, which it probably wont).  I would look at the discharge curves of the batteries to be certain.  On a 1hr discharge curve, they probably don't even get 50wh.  Personally, I would go with something made for large loads and deep discharge cycles. You will also need a 12v/1600W (or better) inverter.

> or if UPS would be cheaper to modify that buying an inverter separately.

It is going to be expensive to buy a UPS that is rated for the load you're wanting to draw.





Thanks, that sorta helps me to figure out how to figure it :smile: Can I take the 76ah word for it on these gel cells?

http://www.theenergyconscious.com/sol3087.html

    BIC Group Size: 24
    Type: 24-GEL
    Voltage: 12
    Amp Hour Rate (5 Hrs): 66
    Amp Hour Rate (20 Hrs): 75
    Amp Hour Rate (100 Hrs): 85



I'm not sure what the Amp Hour Rate (2,10,20 Hrs) means?

What would be the minimum that it would take for 2 batteries to power it sufficiently? Trojan has a lot of choices it seems, I like the 24-gel because the 4 posts. But I know shit about batteries as you can tell :P

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15634389 - 01/08/12 10:54 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I can get 1848 watts/hour using two of them if I can take their word for it?

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15635393 - 01/08/12 03:20 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Yeah I'm going with Outback 60 amp MPPT



Looks good.

Quote:

and some Tojan Deep Cycle Gel Cel batteries.



Ok, I see the come in a variety of model types, but I gather you're looking at the small 24-gel type.

Quote:

Thanks for teh help.



You're welcome!

Quote:

I'm wondering if you would be able to make an educated guess as to the maximum capacity the batteries would need to be to run only the application presented? No, I do not have the measurement of the sterilizer, I don't even have that yet.



Well, the lack of actual usage data makes it a bit difficult, so it's going to be a very theoretical exercise. Who knows if it'll work in practice?
Anyway, let's make some bold assumptions. (Btw, I'm inevitably going to go wrong somewhere in this calculation, so someone please correct me wherever I fuck up :wink:)
Your pressure cooker has a maximum power load of 1.65kW.
Let's assume you want to sterilize the contents of your pressure cooker by keeping it immersed in high pressure steam during some 40 minutes.
Let's also assume that the contents of a typical sterilization job are some 10l (ca. 2.5 gallons) of water (that is the substrate or food stuffs you want to sterilize plus some water for steam generation - the exact amount will mostly depend on how much you put in, and how dense the stuff is that you're going to sterilize). Given the size of your pressure cooker and the probability that there will be a considerable amount of space between your jars/whatever and only a little water in it, this seems like a reasonable ballpark figure. (but nothing more than that...)

Liquid water requires about 4.2 J/g to heat it by one degree centigrade or kelvin. Assuming the water load at the start of the sterilization process is maybe 12C, you'd need to heat it 88C in order to reach the boiling point (and therefore generate steam), or about 98C in order to reach a temperature of 110C, which seems like a reasonable estimate of the contents of a PC under pressure (since the interior of the PC is going to be at higher than atmospheric pressure). With our 10l (= ca. 10,000g), this means we need some 4116 kJ (or roughly 4.1MJ) to heat the pressure cooker. Then we'll need to maintain that heat for 40 minutes; I estimate that you'll need about 75W continuously to make up for the loss of heat to the environment (that's a big guess; any better guesses are welcome). 75W = 75J/s; 40 minutes = 2400s; 75 J/s * 2400s = 180kJ. As you see, once you get the pressure cooking to its desired temperature, the energy consumption becomes quite low and manageable. This is favorable. It also means that you basically only need to dimension your battery bank for the heating up phase with a little excess capacity to spare to maintain heat once the pressure cooker reaches its desired temperature.
Anyway, I estimate the total energy requirement to be some 4116kJ + 180kJ nearly 4.3MJ/4300kJ.
See how I keep stressing that you should measure the energy requirements? There's a lot of guesswork included, and you could easily measure the exact energy needs if you had access to the device you're going to use and simply run a test batch and monitor energy usage with your meter!

Now let's consider the power of the pressure cooker. At 1.65kW, the pressure cooker can deliver (if we assume 100% effiency...) 1.65kJ/s to its contents. We needed 4116kJ to heat the contents, which means it would take 4116/1.65 = roughly 2500 seconds to heat the contents. This is about 42 minutes, and it suggests that a load of 10l is actually a lot for this device. Or, put differently: given its volume of 25 quarts, this device is rather underpowered if you load it with 'only' 10l of water (but it's a sizeable pressure cooker, so you're probably going to put a lot of load a into it!) That doesn't surprise me; if I heat up my PC at my stove, I usually use a 3kW gas burner, and it's a much smaller once than the one you intend to buy. It takes about 15minutes to heat up, which suggests that I'm thinking in the right order of magnitude with my guesstimate-calculation.

So with a little room to spare (inefficiencies, keeping the PC at heat once it's heated up, etc.), you would need to put in about 1.65kWh for a sterilization batch. You don't want to discharge your deep cell gel batteries below about 50% for lifetime's sake, so I would aim at a battery capacity of about 3.3kWh. At 12V, that is about 275Ah. Peak current draw will be 1.65kWh @ 12V = 137.5A.

Now let's have a look at your batteries. The spec sheets suggest that they are more efficient at lower loads, which underlines my earlier suggestion to use many batteries in parallel instead of one big one. If you want to achieve about 50Ah from one 24-gel Trojan VRLA type battery, that means you would want to use it at about the 2 hour usage rate (this will already limit the lifetime of the battery considerably, mind you!). With a capacity 0f 50Ah, this would be only 50/2 = 25A. With the 137.5A load, you would need about 6 batteries. 6 batteries of 50Ah is only 300Ah of energy storage; this is a little more than we actually need, but if you take aging of the batteries into calculation (and at this load level, they will age quickly), I would certainly opt for 8 or 10 of these batteries. That will reduce the load per battery, and therefore increase lifetime, and it will also mean you have more excess energy storage.

So let's say you need a minimum of 8 pcs of 24-gel Trojan VRLA type with a total energy storage of about 400Ah (*12V = 4.8kWh), and you could upgrade from there.

Now let's take a quick (and very dirty) look at the charging process. Assuming you indeed manage to get 7.5A @ 12V continuously from those solar panels you fancy (which can be quite optimistic, depending on your local conditions), it would take about 53 hours to charge your battery bank. Assuming 8 hours of usable sunlight in the summer, that means it would take about a week of sunny weather for one sterilization run. Personally, I would find that unacceptable and cut that in 4 by using 4 panels, but that will of course quadruple your investments in solar panels.

Ok, so that's my rough estimate. Like I said, I may very well have taken a wrong turn somewhere. I hope I have, because otherwise I have just proved my earlier point: burn wood instead of using photovoltaic energy for this application.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15636035 - 01/08/12 05:37 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

7.5a at 12v, where did you get that?

By the time I'm finished I'll have a Kilowatt system that will put out about 6 kilowatts a day. Enough to run 3 cycles.

Is the max amount the batteries can put out at of any battery at any one time safely 25a? Where did you get that? Also if you remember correctly it is not going to be pulling 12 v at any amps, at the least it is going to be 24v at 68 amps or 48 volts at 34 amps. Which with 4 batteries each battery will only need to put out 8.5a to make the 34?

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15636060 - 01/08/12 05:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koraks said:
I hope I have, because otherwise I have just proved my earlier point: burn wood instead of using photovoltaic energy for this application.

Hope this helps.




It is almost impossible for you to ever be correct about that, WOOD will never ever ever ever pay itself back. If You spend the money on wood, it aint coming back.

Edited by teknix (01/08/12 06:04 PM)

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15636137 - 01/08/12 06:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> I'm not sure what the Amp Hour Rate (2,10,20 Hrs) means?

The slower you discharge a battery, the more efficient it is.  The different rates tell the story of how efficient the battery is under different types of loads.  A lot of times, if they don't say otherwise, they will give you the 100 hour rate... in other words, how many amps do they get out of the battery if they drain it slow enough that it lasts from 100 hours.  This number will be very large compared to the 2 hour rate (how many amps do they get out of the battery if they drain it quickly in two hours).

> Amp Hour Rate (5 Hrs): 66

If you completely drain the battery over 5 hours, you will get 66 amps total; 330 ah or 7920 wh

> Amp Hour Rate (20 Hrs): 75

If you completely drain the battery over 20 hours, you will get 75 amps total; 1500 ah or 36000 wh

> Amp Hour Rate (100 Hrs): 85

If you completely drain the battery over 100 hours, you will get 85 amps total; 8500 ah or 204000 wh

Given the above, you can see why marketers like to use the 100 hour rate... it makes their batteries look really good.  My numbers are a bit high on the wh (watt hours) as the battery voltage will actually decrease as the SOC (state of charge) drops... but it gives you an idea of what is going on.

Trojan makes good batteries.

Also, when doing your calculations, don't forget to subtract out a large chunk for inefficiencies involved.  Things like your inverter, battery SOC, etc, will eat up a lot of your nice looking numbers.  If you assume your system is 40% efficient, you will probably be fine.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: Seuss]
    #15636212 - 01/08/12 06:15 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

The biggest inefficiency would be the sine wave inverter. Thats 40%?



he got 55-69 on grid ties

Edited by teknix (01/08/12 06:27 PM)

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15636392 - 01/08/12 06:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> The biggest inefficiency would be the sine wave inverter. Thats 40%?

Could easily be, yes.  Quickly discharging batteries is another huge inefficiency.  These are very difficult problems to quantify.  The efficiencies vary with different loads (and different SOCs).  Because of this, it is best to pick a worst case number.  You might get 60% starting out, but drop to 40% (or less) towards the end of the battery charge.  You might get bad efficiencies when first heating the PC, then good ones as the duty cycle of the heater drops.  There are a lot of unknowns.  As koraks keeps saying, measuring would help a lot.


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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15638112 - 01/09/12 01:34 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
7.5a at 12v, where did you get that?



You posted that in this post. If I wrongly assumed 12V, then the charging time is shortened obviously; it's 1/4 of the time I mentioned if they put out 48V.

Quote:

Is the max amount the batteries can put out at of any battery at any one time safely 25a? Where did you get that?



See the mfgr. specifications of the batteries and Seuss's post.

Quote:

Also if you remember correctly it is not going to be pulling 12 v at any amps, at the least it is going to be 24v at 68 amps or 48 volts at 34 amps. Which with 4 batteries each battery will only need to put out 8.5a to make the 34?



No. If you want to make 24V with 12V batteries, you'd need to put them in series and then they will both deliver those 68 amps. I wouldn't recommend that btw as manufacturing differences between the batteries will cause uneven wear and may result in inefficiencies or damage to the batteries. Best keep them paralleled, with some protection circuitry that prevents the situation that if one battery goes dead, the others keep 'charging' it.

Quote:

teknix said:
It is almost impossible for you to ever be correct about that, WOOD will never ever ever ever pay itself back. If You spend the money on wood, it aint coming back.



Then I was mistakenly assuming you were doing this from a sustainability viewpoint. If you're in it for the money, then solar is obviously the best choice. But if it's about money, then it would also be wiser to put your panels' output directly into the grid, and connect the PC to the grid as well. The grid can be considered as a huge and super-flexible battery that requires little to no fixed costs (investments); you only pay for it when you need it. With this application, this would make sense, as your current plan consists of investing in a battery bank that is suited to deliver an incidental peak demand and the rest of the time basically sits around doing nothing.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15638996 - 01/09/12 08:12 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for helping me get things into perspective guys. As shaky as the perspective is given limited data I think I have enough info to determine that just Dumping the money into grid ties and solar panels would be the most cost effective at this point.

Batteries/charge controller should come later.

THanks!

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: Seuss]
    #15639011 - 01/09/12 08:20 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
> The biggest inefficiency would be the sine wave inverter. Thats 40%?

Could easily be, yes.  Quickly discharging batteries is another huge inefficiency.




Now I see why it would make more sense to go 120v DC.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15639023 - 01/09/12 08:24 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Sounds like a plan :thumbup:

Btw, a sine wave inverter need not be as inefficient as you assume. Depending on the design and the load, efficiency may range up to 90%. Expect them to be relatively inefficient at low loads though.

Quote:

teknix said:
Now I see why it would make more sense to go 120v DC.



Yeah, but that would make the installation a death trap.

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: koraks]
    #15639054 - 01/09/12 08:42 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Lol I know, 48-60 seems like the best bet for now, cost and safety wise.

Do they even make 120v dc to 120v ac inverters?

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15639064 - 01/09/12 08:47 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I doubt it!

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Re: Running pressure cooker off the grid. [Re: teknix]
    #15640072 - 01/09/12 01:34 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

> Do they even make 120v dc to 120v ac inverters?

From a safety standpoint, I wouldn't go above 24V DC.


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