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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Calling car stereo experts
    #15588154 - 12/29/11 04:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have a 2000 Ford Contour SVT stock head unit and just upgraded all four speakers to Pioneer 3-way 6 * 8s and the sound is much improved, but the rear speakers were a waste as I rarely have back seat passengers and they have to be overcranked to add much to the sound, and the fronts are way down by my feet so the highs are muffled/lost.

I was thinking of adding some head level 1' soft dome tweeters for greater clarity. As this car is 11 years old, I am not wanting to put much more money into it so I don't need a serious system.

I am assuming I will need crossovers with them. Should I just disconnect the rears and run the power to the tweeters and that way I can control the fade/balance or should I run them in parallel with the fronts for easier installation.

Any installation tips would be appreciated. Also any recommendations for a tweeter pair in the $35 to $75 range with the note that I am not an audiophile.


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15598086 - 12/31/11 05:39 PM (12 years, 30 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I have a 2000 Ford Contour SVT stock head unit and just upgraded all four speakers to Pioneer 3-way 6 * 8s and the sound is much improved, but the rear speakers were a waste as I rarely have back seat passengers and they have to be overcranked to add much to the sound, and the fronts are way down by my feet so the highs are muffled/lost.

I was thinking of adding some head level 1' soft dome tweeters for greater clarity. As this car is 11 years old, I am not wanting to put much more money into it so I don't need a serious system.

I am assuming I will need crossovers with them. Should I just disconnect the rears and run the power to the tweeters and that way I can control the fade/balance or should I run them in parallel with the fronts for easier installation.

Any installation tips would be appreciated. Also any recommendations for a tweeter pair in the $35 to $75 range with the note that I am not an audiophile.





Those rear speakers do much more than you think..  Its important to set a good sound stage in any vehicle.

Are you running amps with these speakers?  I would suggest spending the tweeter money on amps instead of crossovers and get a good wiring kit.  That would make your speakers perform like they should.

Your 6 X 8's should have built in passive crossovers and amps will give them punch.  Adding ear level tweeters wont do much because high notes make up a minor part of the music spectrum in general.  What type of music are you listening to most?


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: GabbaDj]
    #15603227 - 01/01/12 09:19 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

it'll make a big difference. Since you have a stock head-unit, I reccomend peizo tweeters. They are cheap, don't require cross-overs, and have a high impedance, so they can be hooked in parellel to your front speakers and not over-tax your head unit. They got them at radio-shack walmart and all over the place. $20.00-$25.00


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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15605767 - 01/02/12 02:28 PM (12 years, 29 days ago)

upgrade your head unit. If it's stock and has something to do with audio in your car, it is shit.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15609957 - 01/03/12 11:43 AM (12 years, 28 days ago)

Thanks all for your suggestions. Think I am going to try this cool idea for mounting 1" tweeters on the A pillars here.


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15620881 - 01/05/12 03:50 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

:2cents:

Should always have a crossover for mid-tweeter component set. Unless your Amp can do this for you, I.E: a high output per channel.  Last thing you want is Bass running through your tweets. 

Also, unless your pretty stereo/amp literate... i would suggest crossovers again due to the constant tweaking of the crossover on the amp.

P.S. just to clarify, when i say Crossover I mean Component Crossover not that slim external crossover you wire with RCA Pre-Outs to your Receiver (head-unit) or Amplifier, or the Amp Crossover..

Edit: also, don't use your rear speaker wires to wire your front tweets.  You will miss any high note that doesn't go to the front speakers, and pick up weird ones that are only delivered to the rear speakers, not to mention the wattage/resistance difference. As posted earlier, having a full 4 point stereo auto surround is best practice.


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Edited by drSE (01/05/12 03:53 PM)


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15620911 - 01/05/12 03:56 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

he has a factory head-unit. No amps, no crossovers, no nothing. Thats why I said piezo tweeters, 40k ohms impedance


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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15620946 - 01/05/12 04:04 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

SomeGuy said:
he has a factory head-unit.



Your SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM. :facepalm:

Please get that removed and replaced before you put anymore money into the audio.


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: unknown1123]
    #15621103 - 01/05/12 04:43 PM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
Quote:

SomeGuy said:
he has a factory head-unit.



Your SINGLE BIGGEST PROBLEM. :facepalm:

Please get that removed and replaced before you put anymore money into the audio.




actually, in newer vehicle i sometimes prefer the head-unit. Not really a problem at all, and can most certainly power the speakers in the door, unless you bought High-End (don't always believe the box, in stereo its usually 80% wrong unless high-end). Which in that case you are probably buying an amplifier anyways. High-End Component sets can easily run you $500-$1,000 for just front end speakers.

Stock decks have things like, Auto-Vol, dimming, sirus/xm raido, blu-tooth, etc... and to obtain that kind of perfomance aftermarket, you would need a 1,000$ Head-Unit :thumbdown:

Unless its just a radio or tape deck, then BURN that shit.


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Edited by drSE (01/05/12 04:44 PM)


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: unknown1123]
    #15625840 - 01/06/12 03:04 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
upgrade your head unit. If it's stock and has something to do with audio in your car, it is shit.




Amazingly, if I add an expensive amp and a new head unit, my front sepakers will still be placed too low in the door and have no highs. The non-existent highs will now be louder and crisper.


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InvisibleGabbaDjS
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15626227 - 01/06/12 04:34 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

unknown1123 said:
upgrade your head unit. If it's stock and has something to do with audio in your car, it is shit.




Amazingly, if I add an expensive amp and a new head unit, my front sepakers will still be placed too low in the door and have no highs. The non-existent highs will now be louder and crisper.




Your "non-existent" highs are because you bought Pioneer.  Pioneer just makes poor speakers.

Now lets remedy your situation.


http://www.crutchfield.com/g_347050/4-channel-Amplifiers.html?tp=35782

Get yourself a 4 chanel amp and run your speaker line inputs into said amp and rewire your speakers to run off the amp.    It don't need to cost too much money and will even be more impressive than buying tweeters just to boost your highs.

DON'T TRY TO SPLIT YOUR SIGNAL ANY MORE THAN IT ALREADY IS...

Think of it as bandwidth..  You only have soo much and if you pull a bit of it towards some crappy tweets, your just pulling away from some place else...  What you need is MORE POWER.

Just get the amp or amps, get a wiring kit, learn some basics and go to town..  Everything in a ford is meant to snap together...  Once you start taking shit apart you will notice that everything snaps back together, you cant screw it up....

What you need is more power.  Adding speakers will only take away from the power that you have... 


Placement is just a virtue.


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Edited by GabbaDj (01/07/12 04:02 PM)


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Invisibletrigger
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: GabbaDj]
    #15645513 - 01/10/12 03:00 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

all above is a bunch of shit, you need high efficiency  speakers, a simple way to increase the vol and decrease the distortions.

pezo tweets and extra amps, all junk,

ive got 20watts deafening me at the moment, my pictures falling off the walls, neighbors calling the cops, all in a clear accurate sound stage 20 watts 4 speakers each getting 5w, high efficiency is the best, remember instillation is key!


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: trigger]
    #15646014 - 01/10/12 04:36 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

trigger said:


ive got 20watts deafening me at the moment, my pictures falling off the walls, neighbors calling the cops, all in a clear accurate sound stage 20 watts 4 speakers each getting 5w, high efficiency is the best, remember instillation is key!





HAHAAAH U High ^^


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15646034 - 01/10/12 04:40 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

drSE said:
Quote:

trigger said:


ive got 20watts deafening me at the moment, my pictures falling off the walls, neighbors calling the cops, all in a clear accurate sound stage 20 watts 4 speakers each getting 5w, high efficiency is the best, remember instillation is key!





HAHAAAH U High ^^




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Invisibleunknown1123
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15646261 - 01/10/12 05:26 PM (12 years, 21 days ago)

Quote:

SomeGuy said:
Quote:

drSE said:
Quote:

trigger said:


ive got 20watts deafening me at the moment, my pictures falling off the walls, neighbors calling the cops, all in a clear accurate sound stage 20 watts 4 speakers each getting 5w, high efficiency is the best, remember instillation is key!





HAHAAAH U High ^^







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Invisibletrigger
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: unknown1123]
    #15646341 - 01/10/12 05:41 PM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

unknown1123 said:
Quote:

SomeGuy said:
Quote:

drSE said:
Quote:

trigger said:


ive got 20watts deafening me at the moment, my pictures falling off the walls, neighbors calling the cops, all in a clear accurate sound stage 20 watts 4 speakers each getting 5w, high efficiency is the best, remember instillation is key!





HAHAAAH U High ^^











looks like ya'll aint audiophiles....


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: trigger]
    #15649082 - 01/11/12 08:24 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

actually, I am an audiophile. My klipsh 200 watt RMS sound system has no problem recreating most music, but if I really want to pound I go out to the truck, where I have 1050 watts rms, two rockford fosgate amps, kicker components and 12's in my standard cab.
    The difference between 1 watt and 10 watts is only 10 db:shrug: so Even with extremely efficient speakers(lets say 95db/1w1m) your 20 watt system could still only put out less than 110 db. My muffler is that loud:lol:
    also, in order to get bass extension down to the lowest bass guitar note (40hz) (low E) you would have to either have a big woofer, (10 inches or more) or drive a smaller speaker(6-8 inches) close to it's xmax, which typically requires more than 20 watts


Edited by SomeGuy (01/11/12 08:57 AM)


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OfflineGalaxie500
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15649138 - 01/11/12 08:41 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

You've got your wattage to decibels conversion jumbled a bit. A DOUBLING in wattage yields a 3dB increase. So if you have speakers that have a sensitivity of 90db/w/m, 2W would yield 93dB, 4W 96dB, 8W 99dB, 16W 102dB, and so on...

I'm not going to get into the stereo discussion, there's too much I'd argue with... Head unit is always the first to go, IMO.


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: Galaxie500]
    #15649173 - 01/11/12 08:55 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

you're right, It's been a long time. I had electronics class in 95-96 :awesomenod: I'll fix it this was interesting
http://www.globalrph.com/multimedia.htm


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15649307 - 01/11/12 09:35 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

Quote:

Galaxie500 said:
You've got your wattage to decibels conversion jumbled a bit. A DOUBLING in wattage yields a 3dB increase. So if you have speakers that have a sensitivity of 90db/w/m, 2W would yield 93dB, 4W 96dB, 8W 99dB, 16W 102dB, and so on...

I'm not going to get into the stereo discussion, there's too much I'd argue with... Head unit is always the first to go, IMO.




My only question is don't db's take twice as much power to reach the next db? i.e: 140-141?  Or does that start at a certain part in the W-RMS/air ratio range of a 100db+


Quote:

SomeGuy said:
actually, I am an audiophile. My klipsh 200 watt RMS sound system has no problem recreating most music, but if I really want to pound I go out to the truck, where I have 1050 watts rms, two rockford fosgate amps, kicker components and 12's in my standard cab.
    The difference between 1 watt and 10 watts is only 10 db:shrug: so Even with extremely efficient speakers(lets say 95db/1w1m) your 20 watt system could still only put out less than 110 db. My muffler is that loud:lol:
    also, in order to get bass extension down to the lowest bass guitar note (40hz) (low E) you would have to either have a big woofer, (10 inches or more) or drive a smaller speaker(6-8 inches) close to it's xmax, which typically requires more than 20 watts




"DING DING DING, We have a Winner with that one Magic Word RMS" just missing the words True and Constant before it.  Its really the only truth written on the side of an Amplifier/Speaker Box.


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Edited by drSE (01/11/12 09:36 AM)


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OfflineSomeGuy
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15649323 - 01/11/12 09:39 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

theoretically it's constant that doubling the power gains you 3db. Did you read that link in my last post? interesting stuff in there, like if you move back anther meter, you lose 3 db, if you add another speaker you gain 3db(assuming your amp can handle the impedance) ect. good stuff


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #15649440 - 01/11/12 10:13 AM (12 years, 20 days ago)

I plan on reading think when i get some free time. Right now i'm trying to program a new cash register for the bar without a manual >.< Sounds like a good read.  I haven't dabbled in the stereo field in awhile but I used to be a Pro-Installer for a place called Pro Auto Sound and Security.  Used to have a good solid background in Electrical Theory (degree to prove it) but its been so many years since i used that knowledge.  Almost like I never learned it lol.

Also, you Impedance is a massive issue you have to pay attention too when (i hate when i see people do this) Bridging (<--) your amps and other areas of your layout when running your setup in parallel.

My latest run into this was with Volume Controllers in a house breaking the system down to 1ohm on a non-1ohm stable amp.

Point of this story? Don't Bridge your amp, if its 1 ohm stable its probably a mono-block.  Odds are its not 1 ohm stable and you will cook your hardware on any given hot summer day.

Now back to whatever the OP was talking about again \m/ >.< \m/

p.s. this thread is starting to get off topic a little.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: GabbaDj]
    #15958238 - 03/17/12 01:26 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Adding ear level tweeters wont do much because high notes make up a minor part of the music spectrum in general.  What type of music are you listening to most?




I added two 7/8" Pioneer tweeters (~$30 a pair) on the front door sail(?). They have a simple inline crossover (capacitor?). I soldered the wires in parallel with the front door speakers and used a pre-existing hole to mount them. They look like they belong there and are about neck level.

I did one first and listened to 6 kinds of music. I turned the rears off and set the balance full right and full left for each type of music. The difference was subtle, but amazing. After intalling both, I repeated the experiment doing full fade front to rear. No comparison. It now sounds open and I can hear hi-hats, snares and subtle guitar harmonics that were muffled before.

I am very pleased at the overall balance without a control. I was afraid the tweets might be overpoweringly shrill and tinny, or too underpowered to notice. Sounds so good (for what I am looking for) that I will probably keep my stock head unit. The only thing missing is a bit of bass punch.


One more question: the internal grills have a lot of interfering plastic which must reflect the sound to some degree plus the door panel itself has its own exterior speaker grill. I left one off and one on. Am not sure if I can hear the difference, but the one speaker seems safe enough from damage without the internal thick plastic grill speaker. Any thoughts one way or the other?


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15966528 - 03/19/12 08:54 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

it wouldn't matter one way or another really. at least not to your ears.  If you wan't more bass depth out of the door speakers look for plastic/foam Baffles to put in behind them.  they are like little boxes for your speakers that fit inside your door causing bass resonance to occur.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15969357 - 03/19/12 09:00 PM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I have seen those. Are they noticably different on small woofers? Have you tried them?


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15970913 - 03/20/12 08:58 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I find that the foam or hard plastic baffles make a noticeable difference.  Gets rid of that hollow port sound when you hit a dead bass beat.  They make a cheesy thin plastic one too that just makes it sound worse also.  In all new vehicles the door speakers come housed in a hard plastic baffle now.  You can definitely tell the difference from new car with baffles vs. old ones.  :awesomenod:


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15971029 - 03/20/12 09:34 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

I went to Crutchfield and half the reviewers found poor fit or worse sound with those preformed baffles. Think I will leave them as is.


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #15971073 - 03/20/12 09:52 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

here's the thing, door speakers are usually small, so they suck at playing bass anyway :shrug: Even 6 1/2s (6 3/4)can't play the lowest notes as well as a real subwoofer, so you might as well use a crossover if you have a subwoofer. Putting in a baffle just makes the area behind the speaker smaller, which kills the bass even more, if you simply must play bass through your door speakers, get some "dyna-mat" asphalt based acoustic insulation, and put it on the metal frame of the door, don't cut any holes in it (except where you have to) and put the door panel back over the top


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: GabbaDj]
    #15971308 - 03/20/12 10:57 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

unknown1123 said:
upgrade your head unit. If it's stock and has something to do with audio in your car, it is shit.




Amazingly, if I add an expensive amp and a new head unit, my front sepakers will still be placed too low in the door and have no highs. The non-existent highs will now be louder and crisper.




Your "non-existent" highs are because you bought Pioneer.  Pioneer just makes poor speakers.





Thankyou! I'm glad someone else agrees with me on this. I've heard pioneer speakers, and I always just thought it was my personal preference. I don't know much about car stero's (still managed to swap out the duff radio that came with my mate's Nissan Micra K12 for a philips unit of some sort) and haven't done much research in them.

Now, apart from it being bulky and ungainly (and that a car is not a good sound stage) I'd quite like to have the Mission 760i's with their cabinets.

Actually I don't see this as being a problem for the back. A friend of mine in his old ford fiesta had TEAC LSX8's in the rear and even without the subwoofer those had plenty of noise and didn't get distorted with this 4x45w amplifer/cd player they were hooked into. We tried it without the front speakers (whatever ford puts in them) and it sounded leaps and bounds better.

Alas, those aforementioned speakers are hard to come by today, and really this could go into another thread but I'd like to see a thread about the use of hi-fi speakers in a car, taking into consideration that the cabinet will be either nothing (speakers mounted into the boot) or a metal and plastic door. Ideally, you'd want some tweeters at shoulder level (or ear level if you're short/you have tweets in your pillars) but the sound quality of all rounder speakers is not atrocious.


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #15971341 - 03/20/12 11:07 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

^^ I also agree.  I don't like there Head Units either.  Just a lot of fluff like windows >.<


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: drSE]
    #15971385 - 03/20/12 11:20 AM (11 years, 10 months ago)

the problem with pioneer is they refuse to rate their stuff like everyone else does. They won't list the -3db of a woofer(=f3) they list all of theirs @ -10db which makes like it plays a lot lower than it really does. On the head units, they rate the output wattage @ 1% thd and everyone else is rating theirs @.1%. :mad2:


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Re: Calling car stereo experts [Re: SomeGuy]
    #16033030 - 04/02/12 10:24 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah pioneer is known for using cheap pre amps in there head units. Harmonic distortion is the
Main killer of sound quality.


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