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 morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
 
Registered: 10/30/09
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 "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare."  2
#15580928 - 12/27/11 10:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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An experiment was conducted by the British National Council of Arts. A computer was placed in a cage with six monkeys. After one month of hammering away at it (as well as using it as a bathroom!), the monkeys produced fifty typed pages—but not a single word. Schroeder noted that this was the case even though the shortest word in the English language is one letter (a or I). A is a word only if there is a space on either side of it. If we take it that the keyboard has thirty characters (the twenty-six letters and other symbols), then the likelihood of getting a one-letter word is 30 times 30 times 30, which is 27,000. The likelihood of a getting a one-letter word is one chance out of 27,000.
“Schroeder then applied the probabilities to the sonnet analogy. ‘What’s the chance of getting a Shakespearean sonnet?’ he asked. He continued: ‘All the sonnets are the same length. They’re by definition fourteen lines long. I picked the one I knew the opening line for, “Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?” I counted the number of letters; there are 488 letters in that sonnet. What’s the likelihood of hammering away and getting 488 letters in the exact sequence as in “Shall I Compare Thee to a Summer’s Day?”? What you end up with is 26 multiplied by itself 488 times – or 26 to the 488th power. Or, in other words, in base 10, 10 to the 690th.
“Now the number of particles in the universe – not grains of sand, I’m talking about protons, electrons, and neutrons – is 10 to the 80th. Ten to the 80th is 1 with 80 zeros after it. Ten to the 690th is 1 with 690 zeros after it. There are not enough particles in the universe to write down the trials; you’d be off by a factor of 10 to the 600th. If you took the entire universe and converted it to computer chips – forget the monkeys – each one weighing a millionth of a gram and had each computer chip able to spin out 488 trials at, say, a million times a second; if you turn the entire universe into these microcomputer chips and these chips were spinning a million times a second [producing] random letters, the number of trials you would get since the beginning of time would be 10 to the 90th trials. It would be off again by a factor of 10 to the 600th. You will never get a sonnet by chance. The universe would have to be 10 to the 600th times larger. Yet the world just thinks the monkeys can do it every time.’ "
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 PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,716
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15580932 - 12/27/11 10:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Statistics... meh. 
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
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Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: PatrickKn]
#15580944 - 12/27/11 10:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
PatrickKn said:
Statistics... meh.
The correct rejection of this argument is that it has never been demonstrated that the likelihood of DNA existing is comparable to the likelihood of monkeys writing Shakespeare.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted] 1
#15580952 - 12/27/11 10:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Well, how big are these monkeys?
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Greenvalley
PRS
Registered: 06/16/10
Posts: 2,033
Loc: Why not?
Last seen: 3 years, 5 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted] 1
#15580958 - 12/27/11 10:58 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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I really like that whole statement.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted] 1
#15580962 - 12/27/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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key phrase: an infinite amount of time
any number, regardless of how small, multiplied by infinity... becomes infinitely large.
if it is possible for a random sequence of letters to produce a Shakespearean sonnet (which I believe we all think is true) than if one could guaranteed its actualization given an infinite amount of time.
could we realistically apply such a scenario to our very finite human lives? nope. does that mean such a thing becomes an actual impossibility? also nope.
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: I_was_the_walrus]
#15580965 - 12/27/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I_was_the_walrus said:
Well, how big are these monkeys?
The second best rejection of this argument is to question the validity of the study. The fact that six monkeys were paired with one typewriter rather than six seriously undermines its conclusiveness.
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Evanstoned
Noobie shroom grower
Registered: 02/01/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Evanston, IL
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15580968 - 12/27/11 10:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Interesting but you have to consider in the factor of 'an infinite amount of time'. One could argue that within said time many generations of monkeys develop and evolve allowing for a sonnet to be formed by a "more intelligent" type of monkey.
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15580969 - 12/27/11 11:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
key phrase: an infinite amount of time
any number, regardless of how small, multiplied by infinity... becomes infinitely large.
if it is possible for a random sequence of letters to produce a Shakespearean sonnet (which I believe we all think is true) than if one could guaranteed its actualization given an infinite amount of time.
could we realistically apply such a scenario to our very finite human lives? nope. does that mean such a thing becomes an actual impossibility? also nope.
Given an infinite amount of time, monkeys could produce Shakespeare. But time is not infinite. A finite amount of time has passed since the beginning of the universe.
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: Evanstoned]
#15580970 - 12/27/11 11:01 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Evanstoned said:
Interesting but you have to consider in the factor of 'an infinite amount of time'. One could argue that within said time many generations of monkeys develop and evolve allowing for a sonnet to be formed by a "more intelligent" type of monkey.
That would be a different argument. This argument presumes that the monkeys will not evolve, though it does not explicitly state as much.
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Shpongle1
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds 
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15580981 - 12/27/11 11:03 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is kind of like that idea that if the universe is truly infinite, as many modern cosmologists believe, then inevitably there must be infinite copies of yourself existing with only slight differences. One of my copies has blue skin and speaking an alien language while watching that planet's three moons drift quickly across its sunset lit sky...
I don't buy it but that's what some know it all scientists try to convince people of.
Another theory, that I first heard from an author I really enjoy named Clifford Pickover, is that if the digits in Pi are infinite and non-repeating, then we all have a numerical representation within Pi. All of our exact genetic codes reside somewhere amongst the digits of Pi and thus, we are immortal.
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There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens. 
 - "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: Shpongle1]
#15581009 - 12/27/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
This is kind of like that idea that if the universe is truly infinite, as many modern cosmologists believe, then inevitably there must be infinite copies of yourself existing with only slight differences. One of my copies has blue skin and speaking an alien language while watching that planet's three moons drift quickly across its sunset lit sky...
I don't buy it but that's what some know it all scientists try to convince people of.
Another theory, that I first heard from an author I really enjoy named Clifford Pickover, is that if the digits in Pi are infinite and non-repeating, then we all have a numerical representation within Pi. All of our exact genetic codes reside somewhere amongst the digits of Pi and thus, we are immortal.
Hypothesizing the existence of a multiverse is extremely similar if not equivalent to hypothesizing the existence of a Deistic God.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15581010 - 12/27/11 11:09 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
key phrase: an infinite amount of time
any number, regardless of how small, multiplied by infinity... becomes infinitely large.
if it is possible for a random sequence of letters to produce a Shakespearean sonnet (which I believe we all think is true) than if one could guaranteed its actualization given an infinite amount of time.
could we realistically apply such a scenario to our very finite human lives? nope. does that mean such a thing becomes an actual impossibility? also nope.
Given an infinite amount of time, monkeys could produce Shakespeare. But time is not infinite. A finite amount of time has passed since the beginning of the universe.
This all depends on what definition of time we are using (I'm going to assume it is the physical definition). Though it is true that, as far as we know, time began at the moment of the big bang--and only a finite amount of time has passed from then until now--we do not know whether time stretches infinitely or only finitely into the future. And really, we can't even say for sure that time began at the moment of the big bang, only that that is the furthest moment in time that we are able to access.
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I_was_the_walrus
eggshells
Registered: 05/01/02
Posts: 11,887
Loc: next door
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15581014 - 12/27/11 11:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Hypothesizing the existence of a multiverse is extremely similar if not equivalent to hypothesizing the existence of a Deistic God.
Here we go...
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Shpongle1
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15581022 - 12/27/11 11:12 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
This is kind of like that idea that if the universe is truly infinite, as many modern cosmologists believe, then inevitably there must be infinite copies of yourself existing with only slight differences. One of my copies has blue skin and speaking an alien language while watching that planet's three moons drift quickly across its sunset lit sky...
I don't buy it but that's what some know it all scientists try to convince people of.
Another theory, that I first heard from an author I really enjoy named Clifford Pickover, is that if the digits in Pi are infinite and non-repeating, then we all have a numerical representation within Pi. All of our exact genetic codes reside somewhere amongst the digits of Pi and thus, we are immortal.
Hypothesizing the existence of a multiverse is extremely similar if not equivalent to hypothesizing the existence of a Deistic God.
I'm not really talking about a multiverse in this instance, just this particular universe extending infinitely and containing slightly varied copies of ourselves and everything we know.
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There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens.
- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15581030 - 12/27/11 11:13 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
key phrase: an infinite amount of time
any number, regardless of how small, multiplied by infinity... becomes infinitely large.
if it is possible for a random sequence of letters to produce a Shakespearean sonnet (which I believe we all think is true) than if one could guaranteed its actualization given an infinite amount of time.
could we realistically apply such a scenario to our very finite human lives? nope. does that mean such a thing becomes an actual impossibility? also nope.
Given an infinite amount of time, monkeys could produce Shakespeare. But time is not infinite. A finite amount of time has passed since the beginning of the universe.
This all depends on what definition of time we are using (I'm going to assume it is the physical definition). Though it is true that, as far as we know, time began at the moment of the big bang--and only a finite amount of time has passed from then until now--we do not know whether time stretches infinitely or only finitely into the future. And really, we can't even say for sure that time began at the moment of the big bang, only that that is the furthest moment in time that we are able to access.
We can say that monkeys cannot exist until long after the big bang has already occurred.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15581037 - 12/27/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
morrowasted said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
key phrase: an infinite amount of time
any number, regardless of how small, multiplied by infinity... becomes infinitely large.
if it is possible for a random sequence of letters to produce a Shakespearean sonnet (which I believe we all think is true) than if one could guaranteed its actualization given an infinite amount of time.
could we realistically apply such a scenario to our very finite human lives? nope. does that mean such a thing becomes an actual impossibility? also nope.
Given an infinite amount of time, monkeys could produce Shakespeare. But time is not infinite. A finite amount of time has passed since the beginning of the universe.
This all depends on what definition of time we are using (I'm going to assume it is the physical definition). Though it is true that, as far as we know, time began at the moment of the big bang--and only a finite amount of time has passed from then until now--we do not know whether time stretches infinitely or only finitely into the future. And really, we can't even say for sure that time began at the moment of the big bang, only that that is the furthest moment in time that we are able to access.
We can say that monkeys cannot exist until long after the big bang has already occurred.
But given an infinite amount of time, a loss of a finite amount of time is negligible.
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The Vapor
Lost In A Tea Daze
Registered: 03/22/10
Posts: 8,433
Loc: Misty Mountains, B.C. 
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15581039 - 12/27/11 11:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
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Shpongle1
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: The Vapor]
#15581053 - 12/27/11 11:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Vapor said:
I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
So given an infinite amount of time a star will spontaneously change mass and form to become a guinea pig? May sound ridiculous, but monkey's randomly typing "accidentally" spelling out an entire Shakespearean play is so unlikely that the comparison works. In theory it seems to make sense but I don't buy it.
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There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens.
- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: The Vapor]
#15581056 - 12/27/11 11:22 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Vapor said:
I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
Only if it is possible--even with an infinite amount of time, a square will never come to exist that only has three 90 degree angles, unless we first change our definition of a square to make such a thing possible.
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Morphogenesis
Theatre Semiotics
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 1,132
Loc: ∞
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: The Vapor]
#15581059 - 12/27/11 11:23 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Depends on the monkey.
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Machine Age Maya
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Shpongle1
Registered: 10/20/09
Posts: 3,163
Loc: Above The Clouds
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: shivas.wisdom]
#15581070 - 12/27/11 11:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
The Vapor said:
I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
Only if it is possible--even with an infinite amount of time, a square will never come to exist that only has three 90 degree angles, unless we first change our definition of a square to make such a thing possible.
Maybe not that because mathematics was invented by humans and has man-made rules that we can say are impossible to be broken. But I heard it said before on some quantum physics show that, hypothetically, given an infinite amount of time a marble statue will actually wave hello to you. Shit like that... Come on now.
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There are more people imprisoned for the commission of drug offenses in the United States - close to 500,000 - than are incarcerated in England, France, Germany, and Japan for all crimes combined. Examined in another way, the United States has 100,000 more people incarcerated for nonviolent drug offenses than all the countries of the European Union combined, despite the fact that the European Union has 100 million more citizens.
- "Drugs and Drug Policy: The Control of Consciousness Alteration, 2007.
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demonofchaos
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 847
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: Shpongle1]
#15581091 - 12/27/11 11:36 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
The Vapor said:
I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
Only if it is possible--even with an infinite amount of time, a square will never come to exist that only has three 90 degree angles, unless we first change our definition of a square to make such a thing possible.
Maybe not that because mathematics was invented by humans and has man-made rules that we can say are impossible to be broken. But I heard it said before on some quantum physics show that, hypothetically, given an infinite amount of time a marble statue will actually wave hello to you. Shit like that... Come on now.
that might already happen but they only wave hello when you are not looking at you
5 starts if u get my refrence
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PatrickKn
Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,716
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: demonofchaos]
#15581096 - 12/27/11 11:37 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Toy Story?
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Fruitshishkabob
Mister
Registered: 09/08/11
Posts: 7
Loc: fromunda
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: demonofchaos]
#15581104 - 12/27/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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So uhh... Who feeds the monkeys? 
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shivas.wisdom
בּ
Registered: 02/19/09
Posts: 13,473
Loc: Turtle Island
Last seen: 4 hours, 18 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: demonofchaos]
#15581112 - 12/27/11 11:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
demonofchaos said:
Quote:
Shpongle1 said:
Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:
The Vapor said:
I think with an infinite amount of time for something to happen in it will happen.
Only if it is possible--even with an infinite amount of time, a square will never come to exist that only has three 90 degree angles, unless we first change our definition of a square to make such a thing possible.
Maybe not that because mathematics was invented by humans and has man-made rules that we can say are impossible to be broken. But I heard it said before on some quantum physics show that, hypothetically, given an infinite amount of time a marble statue will actually wave hello to you. Shit like that... Come on now.
that might already happen but they only wave hello when you are not looking at you
5 starts if u get my refrence
also: it is a mathematical possibility that all the atoms that comprise your physical body will one day 'miss' all the atoms that comprise the ground you walk on, and you will just fall 'through' solid ground.
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demonofchaos
Registered: 01/30/11
Posts: 847
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: demonofchaos]
#15581129 - 12/27/11 11:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Love Doctor Who and that would be awsome to fall through the earth i wonder if u would just be in material after that
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imachavel
I loved and lost but I loved-ftw
Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 31,488
Loc: You get banned for saying that
Last seen: 9 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: morrowasted]
#15582330 - 12/28/11 10:31 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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that's actually pretty damn interesting
this is much better then the suck a penis thread
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 I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!
 I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: imachavel]
#15582457 - 12/28/11 11:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
that's actually pretty damn interesting
this is much better then the suck a penis thread
I agree
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morrowasted
Worldwide Stepper
Registered: 10/30/09
Posts: 31,476
Loc: House of Mirrors
Last seen: 12 minutes, 30 seconds
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Re: "Given an infinite amount of time, a bunch of monkeys with a typewriter could produce Shakespeare." [Re: imachavel]
#15584320 - 12/28/11 06:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
imachavel said:
that's actually pretty damn interesting
this is much better then the suck a penis thread
about time someone appreciated it
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