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Offlinecircastes
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Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings * 6
    #15560155 - 12/23/11 04:31 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

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Invisiblemoonrockmushy
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15560205 - 12/23/11 05:00 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

what's wrong with NOT being enlightened?




Consciousness

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Offlinecrkhd
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: moonrockmushy] * 2
    #15560257 - 12/23/11 05:29 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You can be enlightened AND do all of those things. And with enlightenment there isn't any room for elitism, superiority or weird consciousness.

Game, set, match :levitate:


--------------------


"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."

"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker

"If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago." - Spacerific

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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes] * 1
    #15560263 - 12/23/11 05:30 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

weird consciousness must be a state of mind that the unhappy or dissatisfied encounter. One way or another I expect the unhappy eventually resume  happy, satisfied existences. Until then we are at the mercy of Enlightenment.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15560268 - 12/23/11 05:32 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?





I say this is what everyone is doing already.  All this "enlightenment" is a smokescreen for what few want to admit are their real motives.  Youthful folly.

You're very wrong imo about regular folk having no dread of death however.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGoreTuzk
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Icelander]
    #15560375 - 12/23/11 06:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

In my opinion, being enlightened simply means that you know two different but interconnected facts: that the you in you is the same as the you in me (meaning: everything and everyone you sense is equally an expression of pure consciousness, but shining through a different filter) and that life isn't something to be taken seriously, but rather it's, like Alan Watts said, "fundamentally playful".

After you've been possessed by a genuine thirst for knowledge that led you to those two conclusions, you can then look at life in a new light because you know that, whether you like it or not, your relationship with the environment is always one that is harmonious, because you are not separated from it.

Some wisdom regarding the upsides of understanding that everything is an illusion and all that exists is the Self:




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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes] * 7
    #15560405 - 12/23/11 06:30 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?




I agree with Icelander that death anxiety is ubiquitous among people, perhaps with more intense death anxiety among "first worlders" who have it all. If I only had a begging bowl, death, and the hope of a better birth next time might be a respite. The poorest people in the USA have it way better than multitudes in Africa, or India, for example. Less psychologically sophisticated people have not had the opportunity to sharpen their egoic mind like we have. Education, nutrition, medical care, decent housing, clean water, private ownership, etc., all create self-esteem to the point of hyper-inflated egos with self-importance. So infantile a dynamic is set up that in our grandiosity, we lose our moorings with the commonplace reality of death. We deny our own mortality on an emotional level like 'it can't happen to me.' I think you are witnessing this denial, and believing that death is simply accepted, though not dwelt upon. "Happy, yappy ordinary folk," are usually automatons, unawakened robots, as Georg Gurdjieff  pointed out. Though people may disagree with me, I use the word happy to refer to external situations, whereas I use the word joy to refer to a deeper, self-sustaining 'flame' which abides throughout all situations, howsoever sad or shocking. I have felt joy through grief, as a sense of inner sustenance in my worst grief, and it was qualitatively different from happiness. It was the 'inner smile' that Knows that 'this too shall pass,' even my own life, and it's OK.

As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger. When I was just an impersonality of psychosexual and psychosocial needs, and I had not begun to realize myself as an awareness that 'saw' all these needs from a higher vantage point, I was painfully unenlightened. I still need to love - plants, animals, people. I got joy out of feeding a group of Ibises that were in my yard the other day, or feeding grapes to squirrels. I have that from early childhood. But I have never desired to become wealthy at the cost of my soul, or famous, or a womanizer, and these are the sort of desires that characterize the mundane person. This is what Paul called "the natural man," and for me, it has never been enough. I have always philosophized and sought to 'see' the motives that lie at the root of my beliefs and behaviors, not just unconsciously "Do It" as Nike suggests. This is what enlightenment is in part, and it can be lonely, when seemingly everyone around you is excited about the 'big game' in TV last night, and you neither know or care about it, and they mistakenly interpret your distance as aloofness or feigned superiority, when in truth, you just are not interested and can't fathom such an expenditure of emotional energy on so banal a thing.

Whether football fan or religious fanatic, this level of emotionality serves only to distract people from their death anxiety, and/or fill the emptiness of their inner lives (fear of silence - listen to people cough and fidget during a quiet portion of a church service). 'My team,' or 'my religion' is all about the maintenance of one's social self - a level of ego. It is about the Void or absence of ego that people fear. What the unenlightened fail to Know is that the Void, the Emptiness, is simultaneously the Fullness, the Pleroma, but It is non-ego - Wholly Other. Call it what you will - God, or the Clear Light of the Void. Enlightenment is about identifying with this non-egoic consciousness, with Being. Unenlightenment is the failure to do so.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #15560436 - 12/23/11 06:53 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Cool post. :mushroom2::thumbup:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #15560573 - 12/23/11 08:12 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with Icelander

Christmas comes early for Icelander this year. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #15560581 - 12/23/11 08:15 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.

This is how I see it also.  However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging.  Some of both for sure.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleWhite Beard


Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 6,325
Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15560750 - 12/23/11 09:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?




I've thought of this before, but really, there is no such thing as normal. Being alive is just to mind boggling weird and strange, and to try and normalize it just seems to lead to disaster. IMO I actually find stuff like family and social interaction especially weird. Things are always going to be weird, then we get around in groups and pretend that existence isn't weird, but it's just a facade that I can see right through.

I think you've looked outside of the cave so to speak using Plato's analogy, and now you want to go back in the cave and be like everyone else in the cave. But once you get that one peak, you can never be content with the shadows dancing on the wall no more. Unless you get brain damage or something.

I feel like I'm in the same spot as you. On the fence between a 'normal' life, and being totally exposed to the absurdity. I really don't have an answer either, I'm just hoping at the moment were I'm going ends up some place good.

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InvisibleWhite Beard


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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15560772 - 12/23/11 09:16 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?





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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Icelander]
    #15560787 - 12/23/11 09:21 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.

This is how I see it also.  However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging.  Some of both for sure.




It's not either/or, it's both. I'm reminded of Ken Wilber's All Quadrants All Levels chart (AQAL). Reality manifests along these different axes, so along with the 'objective' physical-chemical (Upper Right), wisdom is the 'subjective' conscious (Upper Left) aspect of the self-same phenomenon.



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #15560800 - 12/23/11 09:26 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Cool post. :mushroom2::thumbup:




Thankyuoverymuch. :elvis:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15561177 - 12/23/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

if that's the life you wanna lead then go for it, certainly not a barrier to enlightenment to do those things.  and if you really want to construct your life in such a way then self-realization is very helpful.  Why impose a duality between a normal life and enlightenment? Maybe your enlightenment is to realize you don't want to fuck with all that far out weird shit any more....although personally I :heart: far out weird shit


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drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Invisiblecateyes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15561610 - 12/23/11 11:55 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

.

Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 11:36 AM)

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #15562554 - 12/23/11 02:36 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.

This is how I see it also.  However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging.  Some of both for sure.




It's not either/or, it's both. I'm reminded of Ken Wilber's All Quadrants All Levels chart (AQAL). Reality manifests along these different axes, so along with the 'objective' physical-chemical (Upper Right), wisdom is the 'subjective' conscious (Upper Left) aspect of the self-same phenomenon.






I don't know about this chart and can't fathom what it means but you can tell from the way a selection of sensory queues from a piece of media can dramatically alter brain chemistry (even if only for a short while) that the way we deal with input plays a big part in the end product.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
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Chat your fraff"

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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #15562613 - 12/23/11 02:55 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Great post Markos!

I used to be very occupied with the idea of becoming enlightened when I was ~17. I obsessed over it and it totally tore me apart. It might be one of the times that I was most unhappy.

These days, I see it more as me playing the game of being human. I have desires, and that's nothing to be ashamed of, because I'm human. I'm afraid of death, and there's nothing wrong with that, because I'm human. I flop between happiness and sadness, and there's nothing wrong with that either, because I'm human. It's natural to have all these things.
I'm playing the human game and enjoying myself while doing so. I'm not trying to be enlightened, I'm just trying to be a human being. As Markos said, this too shall pass. :sun:


--------------------
Current favorite candy: Peanut Butter Kisses

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
    #15562863 - 12/23/11 04:19 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i would say enlightenment is the epitome of normal humanness, it's our natural state free from mental afflictions and delusions

there's nothing wrong with the activities you describe in the OP and i see no reason why they'd interfere with spiritual development. like others have said, it's not an either-or situation. also spirituality can be many things, i think living a life where you share love and happiness with friends and try to help others is a very spiritual life itself.

also, i don't see enlightenment as an all or nothing thing. i don't see it as a case where one toils their whole life with this dream of perfect enlightenment, hoping that one day they'll magically become perfect. instead, spiritual practice has many benefits throughout the path. even if you don't reach full enlightenment, i think you can create a much happier and peaceful life through spiritual practice. hopefully it isn't a case where you keep doing practices and analysing and stuff and never see any relative benefits.

also, i think finding a balance between one's spiritual development and other interests in life is a good idea, to prevent getting burnt out from spirituality. this is especially the case when one first gets into spiritual practice - there's a tendency to decide to go all out and shape your whole life around it right from the beginning, but i think this might lead to discouragement and disillusionment. i think spiritual practice is something that evolves over time, gradually. don't beat yourself up for not living up to some imagined ideal, just be gentle and patient imo.

you mention that there's a lot of people without any spiritual interest who lead happy lives - and there probably are some. however we really cannot see into other people's minds, no matter how happy they seem on the outside and how much they smile. depression is a huge issue, as is anxiety, racing thoughts, etc. a spiritual practice can really help with these common things i think. i have the feeling that people who don't meditate, certainly not everyone, but a lot, are probably very controlled by their thoughts/mind/desires. there's nothing wrong with this, but i much prefer inner peace myself than chasing external happiness.

of course you're free to do whatever you want with your life, but i have a feeling that since you've already immersed yourself as much as you have in spiritual thought that you'll very likely return to it later in life if you decide to give it up now. you may find initially that the thought of living what you deem a normal life is the way to go, but later on you may become disillusioned with this once again. but of course everyone is different that way, and i hope that whatever you choose you're very happy. :sun:

also - if spirituality to you is about elitism and weird consciousness, maybe you're doing something wrong? :lol: to me - spirituality really highlights our equality, leads to compassion and selflessness, etc. elitism is definitely an obstacle to spiritual growth. and i'm not entirely sure what you mean by weird consciousness, but the goal of buddhism any ways is to wake up altogether from 'weird states of consciousness'. what we deem normal life, from a buddhist perspective, is a very weird state of consciousness :lol:


--------------------


Edited by deff (12/23/11 04:24 PM)

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: White Beard]
    #15562972 - 12/23/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

White Beard said:
Quote:

circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?










I have a poster of this quote on my room and I was staring at it today right before I dosed some ayahausca that didn't do anything but make me violently throw up. I'm with cirastes and I'm with your post above this one about the allegory of the cave...

This whole trip, life, existence, is madness but its playful non-serious madness..I'm emerging from this fanatical mindfuck of psychedelic induced self-rigetousness where EVERYTHING IS FUCKING SERIOUS and its just not. And I'm slowly coming to terms with that and with it a degree of inner acceptance that wasn't there before is slowly emerging.

I fasted for nearly three full days and spent a hell of a lot of time bored and brewing my ayahuasca and I got nothing for it but a fuck load of puke and disappointment but thats sort of part of it too--this enlightenment thing that is--its just like coming to terms with how shit is and not trying to change anything.


I'm confused but its like this defeatist confused from my physical exhaustion from vomiting, sleeping poorly, and fasting...and its like...fuck it...this whole thing is retarded anyway...and thats my satori moment. I don't know where I'm going anymore. I'm totally lost as to whats going on and right now I don't give a shit. Joseph Campbell said if you're falling then dive....




--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Edited by JackofSpades (12/23/11 04:51 PM)

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