
thecake
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An Analogy for Existence in the Form of an Eternally Expanding Circle.
#15513475  12/13/11 11:45 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


View my article which was titled something similar to Circle analogy for expanding universes, but I am unwilling to write the exact title of the article.
The article.
Edited by thecake (12/21/11 05:58 PM)

Greenvalley
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15513493  12/13/11 11:48 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


a circle with its center everywhere and its circumference nowhere

Noteworthy
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15513544  12/13/11 11:59 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


I agree with a bunch of ideas you have put forth, however I don't understand the significance of the circle in the way you have used it.
Also I dont think negative infinity is the infinite amount of nothingness... for negative numbers are not nothingness. if anything is nothingness it is 0.
As for the expanding nature of the universe, I havnt thought of that being part of its infinite nature. I consider the universe to go on forever in all directions so its not really getting any 'bigger'. Its just that the space between objects is getting larger. Not sure how that affects your ideas though?


thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: Noteworthy]
#15513684  12/14/11 12:50 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


The ever expanding circle is significant because our universe can be described as an eternally expanding spherelike shape (at least that's what I understand physicists to be saying these days). I never before considered it is already infinite and things are just getting further apart, if that's true I probably just didn't comprehend some physics video I watched. lol. I will have to research it tomorrow.
Isn't it true that as numbers become more and more negative their limit approaches infinity/negative infinite? I haven't studied calculus IIV in quite a few years and its getting fuzzy.

thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: Greenvalley]
#15513690  12/14/11 12:53 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
Greenvalley said: a circle with its center everywhere and its circumference nowhere
Do you mean that this what properly describes the universe? Or are you just giving a to the idea?

Noteworthy
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15513713  12/14/11 01:00 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


yep, so negative infinity is like infinity, but it is talking about the 'antithing', or that which, when combined with a thing, becomes nothing. Ie. x = x times (thing) x = x times (antithing)
when x approaches infinity, you approach infinite things when x approaches negative infinity, you approach infinite antithings. However you never actually reach infinite things nor infinite antithings. They are off the scale. They are conceptual tools. You can say they are values, but are fundamentally different to the finite values.
Also 0= infinetissimal in my opinion, which is one way that nothing = something. Buts my own take on infinity.


Greenvalley
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15513724  12/14/11 01:04 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
thecake said:
Quote:
Greenvalley said: a circle with its center everywhere and its circumference nowhere
Do you mean that this what properly describes the universe? Or are you just giving a to the idea?
both

soldatheero
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15513760  12/14/11 01:16 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


I don't agree with how you apply infinity to the physical universe, I belive existence is infinite, but that does not mean it is infinite in 3D size.
Everything in the universe exists as a form, if that form was not finite it could never exist manifested in the 3d world.
Physical forms come into existence by placing a limitation upon the infinite.
The carving of a statue is a suitable analogy. Imagine carving the statue of a man out of a slab of marble, however consider it is carved out of no ordinary slab but infinite in all dimensions. You cannot create the form of the man without cutting it out of the marble, limiting the amount of marble.
For the physical universe to exist, it is automatically implied that it must be finite. It is "created" or more accurately it appears out of the infinite.. if it were not limited, how could it have any borders/dimensions or physical descriptions?
The universe does not come out of nothing it comes out of the infinite, but the universe is NOT the infinite, the infinite is the reality behind the universe (the cause). Perhaps physicists are concluding that everything comes out of nothing because their definition of reality (everything) is actually NOTHING, and they are concluding the INFINITE is nothing because they have confused everything for nothing.
I belive the physical universe manifests out of an infinite reality which is beyond it, it is not infinite in the sense of size but infinite in that it is unlimited by dimension.
To me, the circle sort of represents the threshold of the finite, the border to the infinite...Could you zoom in on any point of a circle, so much so, that the curved line becomes straight?
 ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: soldatheero]
#15513779  12/14/11 01:27 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


But if you cut a chunk out of a piece of marble that expands infinitely you are still not decreasing the total amount of marble still available. Infinity  100 = infinity. Infinity  10,000,000,000,000,000 = infinity.
And no, you cannot zoom in on a circle to a point where it becomes straight, it would cease to be a circle if that was possible.

thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: soldatheero]
#15513869  12/14/11 02:14 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
soldatheero said: I don't agree with how you apply infinity to the physical universe, I belive existence is infinite, but that does not mean it is infinite in 3D size.
So do you mean that if you travel far enough in the universe, eventually you cant go any further? So what happens then? Do you fall off the edge, hit a wall or get looped back to the beginning?
Quote:
soldatheero said: Everything in the universe exists as a form, if that form was not finite it could never exist manifested in the 3d world.
What about light? Light is made up of particles that are either waves or physical particles at different times. The particles have also been observed to undergo teleportation, they will literally disappear and reappear somewhere else instantly. Quantum mechanics.

NetDiver
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: Greenvalley] 1
#15515424  12/14/11 12:31 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
Greenvalley said: a circle with its center everywhere and its circumference nowhere
That's not really a circle at all then is it.
But I do love I <3 Huckabees.

soldatheero
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15518634  12/15/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
But if you cut a chunk out of a piece of marble that expands infinitely you are still not decreasing the total amount of marble still available. Infinity  100 = infinity. Infinity  10,000,000,000,000,000 = infinity.
Indeed, you can never actually limit infinity because infinity has to include everything. Still, you cannot have a statue without borders and limitations can you? You cannot have forms without the unlimited being limited, yet that is impossible. Perhaps forms are merely appearances, hence no limitation actually takes place.
Quote:
And no, you cannot zoom in on a circle to a point where it becomes straight, it would cease to be a circle if that was possible.
Exactly but.. would you not expect to be able to zoom in to one point of a circle and expect that tiny point to look like a straight line from its perspective? If you can just keep zooming in infinitely and never see a straight line, than does it not mean that the circle is infinitely curved?
 ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

Noteworthy
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: soldatheero]
#15518678  12/15/11 12:22 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


you can't have a line which is a point. A line is between two points.
Not sure how a point of a circle can 'look like a straight line' from its perspective, except in the following way:
One way to mathematically represent the circle is as an infinite collection of infinitely small straight lines which are all equidistant to a point and are perpendicular to the radius which connects them to that point.
In that sense, the circle is made up of infinite straight lines. But theyre infinitely small. This leads to what I think is in fact the central paradox being teased out by this thread. This was published by George Cantor by the way:
Take a small circle and a large circle, and make them concentric.
Now, for each circle, draw a line from each point on the circumphrence to the centre of the circle.
You would think intuitively that there are more lines in the larger circle because the larger circle has a larger circumpherence. Having a larger circumphrence means that there are more points on it and thus that there should be more lines connecting those points to the centre of the circle.
However, there are actually infinite number of lines in both circles. Since the number of lines is infinite in both cases, it is hard to talk about one being larger than another. However, one of Cantor's main contributions was to study infinities beyond infinities.
Nevertheless, this seems to be like the notion of the universe expanding  in a sense it is all staying the same  it's infinite. Expanding it doesnt change the size of the infinity because the expansion is being thought of in a 3 dimensional, finite way, with distances between objects and relative sizes of objects. Such finite concepts do not function properly when applied to infinite objects like the universe.
(Of course it is possible, abeit hard to concieve, that the universe is finite)


thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: soldatheero]
#15523226  12/15/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
soldatheero said: Perhaps forms are merely appearances, hence no limitation actually takes place.
Quote:
soldatheero said: Would you not expect to be able to zoom in to one point of a circle and expect that tiny point to look like a straight line from [this] perspective? If you can just keep zooming in infinitely and never see a straight line, than does it not mean that the circle is infinitely curved?
I used to be an AutoCAD drafter and I have done exactly what you are talking about many times. AutoCAD is a tool for drawing architectural and engineering plans with a computer. Many times with AutoCAD I have zoomed in on a circle to a point where on the computer monitor appears only a straight line. The circle never actually becomes a straight line, only your perspective can change appearances.

thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: Noteworthy]
#15523271  12/15/11 09:12 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
Noteworthy said: Nevertheless, this seems to be like the notion of the universe expanding  in a sense it is all staying the same  it's infinite. Expanding it doesnt change the size of the infinity because the expansion is being thought of in a 3 dimensional, finite way, with distances between objects and relative sizes of objects. Such finite concepts do not function properly when applied to infinite objects like the universe.
Very interesting. Finite concepts can only provide an estimation of anything in our universe, never a 100% truth. Therefore only infinite concepts can accurately describe our universe.
This makes me consider the idea that truth is infinite.
Does this mean that because negative infinity is equal to positive infinity that truth is equal to falseness? (Or whatever the word for the opposite of truth is... I can't think of it right now for some reason. lol.)
Edited by thecake (12/15/11 09:13 PM)

Noteworthy
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15527015  12/16/11 04:28 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Well, all I can say is that I am doubtful that many infinite concepts exist at present, at least in any articulated and wellaccepted way. Also negative and positive infinity arent the same, but they have similar qualities, eg magnitude. Although the magnitude is the same, the phenomenon is not. Eg. the magnitude of 5 is the same as 5 but theyre quite different vectors on a line. But I do think you might enjoy reading a bit about Taoism, eg the Tao Te Ching (Dao De Jing). Can't fully explain why, but its a short, easy, fun read


thecake
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: Noteworthy]
#15532448  12/17/11 08:38 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Thanks you, I will have to check it out.

johnm214
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15532919  12/17/11 10:49 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
thecake said:
Quote:
soldatheero said: Perhaps forms are merely appearances, hence no limitation actually takes place.
Quote:
soldatheero said: Would you not expect to be able to zoom in to one point of a circle and expect that tiny point to look like a straight line from [this] perspective? If you can just keep zooming in infinitely and never see a straight line, than does it not mean that the circle is infinitely curved?
I used to be an AutoCAD drafter and I have done exactly what you are talking about many times. AutoCAD is a tool for drawing architectural and engineering plans with a computer. Many times with AutoCAD I have zoomed in on a circle to a point where on the computer monitor appears only a straight line. The circle never actually becomes a straight line, only your perspective can change appearances.
This is erroneous behavior, then. My guess is that like most graphical thingies on a computer they define things as a series of straight lines and polygons. The circle appearing as a line is simply an artifact of the impercise model that is produced.
Quote:
Greenvalley said: a circle with its center everywhere and its circumference nowhere
Doesn't really make sense. If the circumference is undefined then it appears the edges are undefined, yet it is the interrelation of the edges which define the circle. Hence, a circle without defined edges cannot be known to be a circle unless you have additional information that is not presumed in this case.
Quote:
thecake said:
Quote:
Noteworthy said: Nevertheless, this seems to be like the notion of the universe expanding  in a sense it is all staying the same  it's infinite. Expanding it doesnt change the size of the infinity because the expansion is being thought of in a 3 dimensional, finite way, with distances between objects and relative sizes of objects. Such finite concepts do not function properly when applied to infinite objects like the universe.
Very interesting. Finite concepts can only provide an estimation of anything in our universe, never a 100% truth. Therefore only infinite concepts can accurately describe our universe.
That doesn't follow. Numbers can only provide an estimation of the size of a piece of string that doesn't mean its infinitely long.
Quote:
This makes me consider the idea that truth is infinite.
This doesn't make sense to me. What quality of "truth" are we measuring? This type of description is akin to saying "blue is eleven": it is nonsensical.
Quote:
Does this mean that because negative infinity is equal to positive infinity that truth is equal to falseness? (Or whatever the word for the opposite of truth is... I can't think of it right now for some reason. lol.)
Infinity is not a quantity, it is a description of a quantity sort of like saying "big". As such, you may not do operations such as addition or subtraction with these concepts and derive finite answers. Infinity minus infinity is simply undefined without more information, as infinity just means indefinetly large it says nothing about the magnitude relative to another indefinitely large value. In sum: infinity minus infinity is not 0, it is undefined.
EDIT:
Quote:
thecake said: But if you cut a chunk out of a piece of marble that expands infinitely you are still not decreasing the total amount of marble still available. Infinity  100 = infinity. Infinity  10,000,000,000,000,000 = infinity.
This is not true all things being equal. Remember: infinity isn't a quantity, its a quality of having an unlimited magnitude. As such, you can have greater and lesser infinite functions If the marble expands in volume as a function of its initial size, even though we remove a finite amount of volume, the missingchunk marble of infinite volume would nevertheless have a lesser volume than the whole marble of infinite volume.
In this case we know more information than simply that the volumes are infinite: we know the rate of growth and can therefore compare them in ways that we couldn't if hadn't known this info (i.e. if we simply had known both functions were infinite but nothing else).

emeraldlife88
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: johnm214]
#15534873  12/18/11 01:00 PM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Your article is very good and I like a lot of what you said.
I have to say, you really expanded my mind with that one. After all the things you said my mind was racing with ideas of time/existence/reality, and it got to that state of beautiful overwhelming enlightenment that all is a dream within a dream.
I'm also a little skyed, loll

crkhd
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Re: A Forever Expanding Circle as an Analogy for Existence [Re: thecake]
#15549221  12/21/11 06:58 AM (12 years, 5 months ago) 


Quote:
thecake said: So do you mean that if you travel far enough in the universe, eventually you cant go any further? So what happens then? Do you fall off the edge, hit a wall or get looped back to the beginning?
There is no question of this actually being possible. It's like saying "imagine if red was green, then you ate an apple, what colour would it be?" or "If you had absolutely nothing and took something away from that such that there was 'more nothing' what would happen".
Reason being, the rapidity of light is infinitely fast. Rapidity is a better geometric measure of what we call "speed" than velocity in this context. On a spacetime diagram lightvelocity forms the limiting edges. And another reason being that you project this imaginary sphere with its event horizon everywhere you go. It's travelling with you. You can't travel "within it" because you ARE it. So try as you might to reach the edge, the edge moves away from you. Like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick.
Think about it this way: stretch your hand out and look at the shape of your fingers, twirl them around. Now look forward about 46 billion light years. There is a ghost of the shape of your hand doing exactly the same thing. Just like the projection of a shadow puppet.
See that spherical boundary denoting "the edge"? It's not really a sphere and it doesn't really "exist". The reason it's displayed as a sphere is because a point particle translates to a sphere when you consider the set of all points circumscribing it. But the reality is that these boundaries are the exact same shape as the manifolds/worldvolumes they represent; and you are a manifold, the earth is a manifold, every particle is a manifold in itself. So what truly is happening is a colossal set of boundary interactions of ghostly horizons. A more accurate depiction of that picture would be the 2D surface area of the Earth: that's the REAL boundary (look up AdS/CFT). The boundaries are imaginary, true existence is limitless.
Lend some clue towards nonlocality? I strongly think so. Why? Because any movement in these ghost boundaries MUST instantly propagate across all spacetime. The structure of any local region of space can only be defined in relation to other disconnected regions of interest (Mach's principle). This reeks of holography in every way shape and form.
 "Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern." "THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else."  Wiccan_Seeker "If boring drudgery was the way of the universe, everything would have killed itself long ago."  Spacerific
Edited by crkhd (12/21/11 07:09 AM)

