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detest86
Psychonaut


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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: roaddog]
#15510912 - 12/13/11 02:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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slat is to prevent algae also =P
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scags
Scientific Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 100
Loc: northeast
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: SomeGuy]
#15510924 - 12/13/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
paducahovoids said: I've seen Rogerrabbit and roadkills videos......about 3 years ago. I don't recall them saying put the vermiculite side down, but I gaurantee that you want it up, because like I already said, by the time you wait a week for a cake to consolidate, primordia have often formed and that happens on the top. If you put the top down, they will continue to grow and be smashed by the cake itself. If you don't mind smashed mush, it doesn't REALLY matter, but yea, top up
Hmmm, that's why i'd like some TCs to weigh in with their opinion on this one. I've read that after the dunk and roll is complete, a lot of folks place their cakes in the FC oriented opposite of the way they sat to colonize due to the special shape of most jars. As i understand it, the bottom of a jar creates a concave in the cake, that when used as the top of the cake, can hold water like a small reservoir. I've found success with that method. Given that information, I figured that most folks had larger amounts of vermiculite at the top (and bottom) of their cakes because they put it there (per some of the Teks out there).
Also, i was under the impression that the roll provided moisture and allowed for evaporation (and thus contributed to pinning) all over the cake as it is sprayed and fanned, so the vermiculite-side-down wouldn't really be an issue. Definitely got to clear up some of my basics here. Maybe it's like a lot of folks say about it not really making a huge difference at all.
As for the salt-water... won't that coat and get into the pores of your hydroton as the water evaporates off of it, affecting humidity? Definitely interested to learn here.
Edited by scags (12/13/11 02:32 PM)
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roaddog
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: detest86]
#15510976 - 12/13/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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detest86 said: slat is to prevent algae also =P
because there is no algae in the ocean, right?
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kansastornado
Stranger

Registered: 11/28/11
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: scags]
#15510987 - 12/13/11 02:30 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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They are pinning on the bottom because of the light reflexion. Light will reflex off perlite and mushrooms don't need direct or much light.
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Dudester67
eat a dick win a pony
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: detest86]
#15511202 - 12/13/11 03:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Man there is a lot of bad info in this thread.
Listen, a lot of testing has been done to show that it doesn't make much of a difference regarding the orientation of cakes once placed in the terrarium after birthing. I personally believe in placing them in the same orientation that they colonized in, but either way is okay, you can even do a mix of both ways if you wish.
But you absolutely should not flip a cake that is already fruiting. You are only disturbing the mycelium's natural activity and are just begging for those pins to abort.
I'm sorry if some of you need a "TC" to tell you this for you to believe it (half of which are untrustworthy anyway).
Quote:
kansastornado said: They are pinning on the bottom because of the light reflexion. Light will reflex off perlite and mushrooms don't need direct or much light.
This is very wrong for several reasons. The cakes are not pinning on bottom because of light reflection and yes mushrooms do need "much" light.
Quote:
detest86 said: and ive seen the "how to grow magic mushrooms" video and they said to put the vermiculite layer on the bottom.....
detest86, that video you linked is loaded with bad and outdated information. It still makes for an interesting viewing, but I hope you are not basing your grow on the advice from that video. RR's "Let's Grow Mushrooms' videos are FAR superior: http://www.mushroomvideos.com/
Good luck everyone.
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Dudester67
eat a dick win a pony
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15511229 - 12/13/11 03:32 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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And guys, perlite is God's gift to home cultivation. And I know firsthand because I began growing in the pre-perlite age.
I'm not one of the nazis on this site who insists that you build a certain type of fruiting chamber, but in this day and age, using lava rocks and air pumps and bubblers is akin to trading in your iphone for a beeper.
Just FYI.
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The Influence
Free Sheeks



Registered: 03/30/11
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: SomeGuy]
#15511231 - 12/13/11 03:33 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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paducahovoids said: ps you obviously put the cakes in upside down to begin with, or the verm layer would have been on top in the first place. When they are in the jars, the GE holes are at the top, so that is where the most oxygen is and where they naturally pin first, often before you even birth them. So, you birth them, and put them upside down, and then come here and wonder why your upside down cakes are fruiting on the bottom
All my cakes come out and go verm layer down. Even RR says the nice little divit in the cake formed from the bottom of the jar is nice because you can pour a couple of tablespoons of water in there to rehydrate the cake every couple of days. I have only had a couple mushrooms form on the bottom such as the OP's and have never had them come out smashed or deformed just some perlite on them. They fruit where it suits them best
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roaddog
turnip


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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15511305 - 12/13/11 03:47 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dudester67 said: Man there is a lot of bad info in this thread.
Listen, a lot of testing has been done to show that it doesn't make much of a difference regarding the orientation of cakes once placed in the terrarium after birthing. I personally believe in placing them in the same orientation that they colonized in, but either way is okay, you can even do a mix of both ways if you wish.
But you absolutely should not flip a cake that is already fruiting. You are only disturbing the mycelium's natural activity and are just begging for those pins to abort.
I'm sorry if some of you need a "TC" to tell you this for you to believe it (half of which are untrustworthy anyway).
Quote:
kansastornado said: They are pinning on the bottom because of the light reflexion. Light will reflex off perlite and mushrooms don't need direct or much light.
This is very wrong for several reasons. The cakes are not pinning on bottom because of light reflection and yes mushrooms do need "much" light.
Quote:
detest86 said: and ive seen the "how to grow magic mushrooms" video and they said to put the vermiculite layer on the bottom.....
detest86, that video you linked is loaded with bad and outdated information. It still makes for an interesting viewing, but I hope you are not basing your grow on the advice from that video. RR's "Let's Grow Mushrooms' videos are FAR superior: http://www.mushroomvideos.com/
Good luck everyone.
you say you should never flip a cake that is fruiting, well look in this picture, do you notice that some of the cakes are flipped, I did it for the same reason OP needs too. Also This is in a martha grow, so most of the cakes are upside down, the reason for this is, when I do jars, I fruit them invetro, by simply placing the jar, upside down, in the martha,for about a week, then I would dunk and fruit them. Point is, I used to get them pinning on the top, even flipped upside down. so I would have to re flip those cakes, like the ones in this photo. look at the cake in the far back row.http://
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kansastornado
Stranger

Registered: 11/28/11
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: roaddog]
#15511368 - 12/13/11 03:58 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
kansastornado said: They are pinning on the bottom because of the light reflexion. Light will reflex off perlite and mushrooms don't need direct or much light.
This is very wrong for several reasons. The cakes are not pinning on bottom because of light reflection and yes mushrooms do need "much" light.
I don't believe so dudester67. I never had a problem with them pinning on the bottom when I left them on top of the kitchen cabinet and they got very little indirect light. Now I have them in a room with 2' by 4' 8 bulb 6500k light and I have pin sets on the bottom that are better then the pin sets on top. I asked RR about it and he said that he often has better pinset on bottom from the relexion of light. Mushrooms don't need direct light to grow, whether it's optimal or not is a different story. I use tinfoil on the bottom of the cakes which adds to the reflexion and way more light that can reach the bottom. It makes since to me. If cakes needed much light as you say to pin then they wouldn't pin on the bottom period.
Edited by kansastornado (12/13/11 05:14 PM)
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scags
Scientific Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 100
Loc: northeast
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: kansastornado]
#15511585 - 12/13/11 04:44 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Dudester67 said: Man there is a lot of bad info in this thread.
Listen, a lot of testing has been done to show that it doesn't make much of a difference regarding the orientation of cakes once placed in the terrarium after birthing. I personally believe in placing them in the same orientation that they colonized in, but either way is okay, you can even do a mix of both ways if you wish...
...I'm sorry if some of you need a "TC" to tell you this for you to believe it (half of which are untrustworthy anyway)...
@ Dudester67: Well brother, your bad vibes weren't really warranted in regards to me hoping a TC might weigh in on this one, especially not in relationship to my simple questions and my clear curiosity to find out the facts... your trenchant comment and suggestion that i might be untrustworthy would've been better directed at someone else. I'm sure you're a sharp guy, but to me you're just coming off as kind of a prick.
I like it when trusted cultivators weigh in on things to clear up confusion since their opinion is more likely to be legitimate-- it's a title on the forum for a reason, and i'm thankful for it. I feel more comfortable with TCs and members of sub-communities like the IRF answering questions on debated topics not just because of their proven performance record, but because they take the time to either point newer folks in the right direction or answer their questions outright (and completely) without being giant douche-bags. Case and point, you really just insulted me indirectly and didn't answer any of my questions-- i don't expect that from a TC or someone from IRF. So thanks for the attitude- i really appreciate it, especially during the holiday season.
And as for the PMP, it works better for me with cakes than a SGFC in terms of maintenance and my ability to leave for extended periords, especially given the lower humidity in my house-- so "just FYI" i found Magash's Tek to be a winner... i guess that's just me having my own opinion and different Teks working for different people (god forbid).
@ The Influence: Thanks for attesting to the concave shape formed by the jar and how it links up with the way someone places his or her cake in the FC. Once again you helped me to be on more solid procedural footing. I'll get you a rating when i make my 50-post mark for all the good work.
@ kansastornado: Did the man say anything about gravity pulling the moisture down to the bottom of the cake and the environment created there because of it as a contributing factor to bottom pinning? I remember reading something about that, but can't seem to find it yet.
-------------------- No posting executed under this name is intended to imply, condone, motivate, facilitate,encourage, and/or assist in any illegal activity. All activities/procedures discussed by me are are intended to be legal, scientific endeavors in hobby mycology, working with only legal cultures/specimens. I am not aware of any criminal intent and/or use of illegal substances in regards to anything discussed. I have no intent to commit, facilitate, or assist a crime by any discussion I view and/or participate in. Don't follow my advice if that is your intent.
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kansastornado
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: scags]
#15511673 - 12/13/11 04:59 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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No he didnt. It wasnt my post. He just said some mushrooms will also grow downward because of light relexion and you could help that by not putting light directly over the top.
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Dudester67
eat a dick win a pony
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 632
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: scags]
#15511713 - 12/13/11 05:09 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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@scags: no bad vibes intended, and I certainly wasn't calling YOU untrustworthy. I think you may have misinterpreted something.
Don't you see, there are many experienced growers on these boards for no other reason than as you say, to "take the time to either point newer folks in the right direction or answer their questions outright." And to some of us, it's a real slap in the face when our advice is completely dismissed because we don't have the TC tag, especially on such basic issues like cake orientation and flipping cakes during fruiting, which a simple use of the search engine could clear up for most people.
Anyway dude, I'm truly sorry for rubbing you the wrong way (even though I'm not sure how I did), but there are much bigger assholes around here, so stay strong.
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roaddog
turnip


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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15511732 - 12/13/11 05:14 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Asshole? whats that?
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kansastornado
Stranger

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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: roaddog]
#15511742 - 12/13/11 05:16 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sorry roaddog. I fixed it.
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scags
Scientific Enthusiast

Registered: 11/06/11
Posts: 100
Loc: northeast
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15511897 - 12/13/11 05:54 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Dudester67 said: @scags: no bad vibes intended, and I certainly wasn't calling YOU untrustworthy. I think you may have misinterpreted something.
Don't you see, there are many experienced growers on these boards for no other reason than as you say, to "take the time to either point newer folks in the right direction or answer their questions outright." And to some of us, it's a real slap in the face when our advice is completely dismissed because we don't have the TC tag, especially on such basic issues like cake orientation and flipping cakes during fruiting, which a simple use of the search engine could clear up for most people.
Anyway dude, I'm truly sorry for rubbing you the wrong way (even though I'm not sure how I did), but there are much bigger assholes around here, so stay strong.
No issues, brother- you couldn't know unless i let you know, and it's good karma to give folks the benefit of the doubt. Besides, it's the holidays! I wasn't trying to burn you over you not being a TC, just giving my reasoning (in regards to comfort level), because i felt you thought it was unfounded. We're on the up and up, and now i can remember your handle so i can lend it more respectful credence in the future.
I've seen what you mean by folks asking a question, experienced cultivators taking the time to write out legitimate advice to lend a hand, and then it gets completely disregard and they do their own thing. As frustrating as it is to got through the trouble for naught, i try to keep in mind that you can't direct the winds, but you can adjust your sails... What's growing in my gardens and FCs always mellows me out when i feel like i'm about to blow a fuse.
-------------------- No posting executed under this name is intended to imply, condone, motivate, facilitate,encourage, and/or assist in any illegal activity. All activities/procedures discussed by me are are intended to be legal, scientific endeavors in hobby mycology, working with only legal cultures/specimens. I am not aware of any criminal intent and/or use of illegal substances in regards to anything discussed. I have no intent to commit, facilitate, or assist a crime by any discussion I view and/or participate in. Don't follow my advice if that is your intent.
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Dudester67
eat a dick win a pony
Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 632
Last seen: 12 years, 13 days
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: kansastornado]
#15511943 - 12/13/11 06:03 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
kansastornado said: I asked RR about it and he said that he often has better pinset on bottom from the reflexion of light.
If cakes needed much light as you say to pin then they wouldn't pin on the bottom period.
I think you're misunderstanding something, mycelium and fruitbodies need lots of light to grow properly but NOT because they will pin exactly where the light strikes. If anything RR often talks about how fruits grow where the light ISN'T striking. But that doesn't mean that lots of bright light is not important.
Look, since some of you are only interested in what RR says about things I'll just pull up a few quotes:
Here's an RR quote from 1 month ago:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: There's some very bad advice being repeatedly given above about flipping cakes over.
Don't disturb a fruiting cake. It's perfectly normal for pins to form on the bottom. They often do that and should be left alone. One should not play boss and attempt to tell the mycelium where it should fruit. The pins will grow out from the bottom and easily lift the cake out of the way as they do so.
I've seen mushrooms in nature lift a 20 pound rock out of the way, simply because they decided to pin under the rock, so the rock had to move, not the mushrooms. I've also seen mushrooms form in a small crack in concrete, and literally split the concrete slab in half with hydraulic pressure.
Flipping a cake that is already pinning is an excellent way to cause them to all abort. RR
Quote:
RogerRabbit said: Light is a pinning trigger to the mycelium, but we also know that fruits very often form on the opposite side of the cake from where the light hits. ...Mushrooms grown in bright, high frequency light will be meatier, have fatter caps, and thicker heavier stems.
The brighter the light the better. Bright light penetrates further into the substrate than dim light. The old adage that 'just a little light will do' is flat out wrong. Bright light is far better.
and scags: no sweat dude. Dan "Bee" Spears RIP.
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roaddog
turnip


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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15512058 - 12/13/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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In my opinion you two are basically arguing over the most argued subject on the shroomery. We get one of these thread once a month. Im here to tell you that, nether one of you are going to win this. Here is my take on it, I dont know. I dont think anyone really dose.
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kansastornado
Stranger

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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: Dudester67]
#15512073 - 12/13/11 06:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Im not saying it's not important. I wouldn't of went from basically little light on kitchen cabinet to 420 watt 40,000 lum light. Thats why I believe I have pin sets on bottom now because I have a brighter light. I would never flip a cake I tried just a few days ago and they took off sweet then bam they stop. It happened to each cake I flipped. I waited until fruits on top matured then I flipped them, had great pin set then stop growing as fast as they took off.
Edited by kansastornado (12/13/11 06:41 PM)
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Munchauzen



Registered: 06/22/11
Posts: 14,343
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: kansastornado]
#15512557 - 12/13/11 08:12 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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TL;DR. first page was all pro flip
def not pro-flip. will cause aborts
mushrooms will push cakes out of the way, cakes def will not smash. wilds grow from under rocks :P
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detest86
Psychonaut


Registered: 03/08/11
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Re: Ok to flip cakes so verm layer is on top? [Re: roaddog]
#15513398 - 12/13/11 11:29 PM (12 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
roaddog said:
Quote:
detest86 said: slat is to prevent algae also =P
because there is no algae in the ocean, right?
I wont be getting any algae that grow in fresh water =P =P =P
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